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[Wallach]

Why can't I wall jump?

LOL, what the fuck?

Why doesn't my character run slower uphill, faster downhill?

Partly because it's annoying, but also because there are sometimes PvP implications and they have to be careful about how much metagame they are directly balancing around.

Why can't my moves be performed through input combinations (ex. charge 2 secs, forward + button) instead of clicking through 5 spellbars?

Some games do combat similarly to this (see Age of Conan). It is not as intuitive as you think to most players.

Why can't I fly like in Mario 64 instead of like, well, WoW where you go up into the sky like an elevator?

Because flight is implemented for different purposes in different games. Because combat cannot take place while mounted in WoW it is designed entirely for travel and basic movement. That type of flight mechanic is, again, simply an annoyance if it isn't given direct purpose.

Why can't there be proximity game chat?

In what way, exactly? A lot of games have proximity based chatting, WoW included.

These simple, basic design concepts that have been established by single player games for over a decade just seem to be ignored by MMOs. Of course it is more challenging to create some of these things on a server based setting, but it's 2010, and WoW's 6 year old basic gameplay still hasn't been improved upon. Surely the technology on servers has reached a point where these things can be done in an MMO.

The game that does all of this will be the WoW killer.

I think some of the things you asked for a lot of people would be very mixed about whether they wanted those gameplay elements at all. They are definitely not the magic solution to creating a game that could match WoW's success.

 

[Vespene]

I think the perfect MMO would be built as a single player action game, then transfered to a world server and slapped with a character progression system.

Devs, do that and THEN build the world.

Every dev jumps into building the world first, using a warrior archetype as their playtest character. After the world is fleshed out, the development time has expired by 80% so they spend the last 20% of development rush making a bunch of quests and adding filler classes to fill a quota. It is so backwards and retarded, and they end up creating a glorified server interaction program rather than a video game.

 

[Lain]

I've always said that the secret to WoW's success, above all else, is that Blizzard made the granular experience of the game so crisp- the experience you get at the smallest level of the game. The act of running, jumping, fighting and spellcasting- the actions that you are going to do hundreds of thousands of times, if not millions, over the course of the MMO- are themselves smooth and crisp. If moving and interacting with the world are not fun, then no amount of content is really going to make up for it.

Its a lesson they learned well from diablo 2.

I've always thought that WoW came out good also because MMO players made it. People that spent a lot of time playing games like EQ and seeing what was good and what was not and made their own game.

 

[Vespene]

@Wallach

Watch the WoW 5th anniversary interviews. Most of these things were in the game at some point, but they took them out because they couldn't make them work with the technology back in 2002. Over eight years have passed, and now I'm pretty sure they are possible, and I'm willing to bet their next MMO will achieve them.

 

[Wallach]

@Wallach

Watch the WoW 5th anniversary interviews. Most of these things were in the game at some point, but they took them out because they couldn't make them work with the technology back in 2002. Over eight years have passed, and now I'm pretty sure they are possible, and I'm willing to bet their next MMO will achieve them.

They may introduce them later, but Blizzard is very good about removing things not just because of technology but because of lack of purpose. Wall jumping in particular is a bizarre request in the framework of a game like WoW.

 

[FieryBalrog]

While I agree in theory, the only problem with the "action" part of it is that you do have to take into account the massive load on the server and the latency involved. You're looking at a "good" latency of 300ms for most people and a "bad" latency of 600-700+. Even if most people stay at the good latency most of the time, its not enough to have true action-game combat. Its why MMO combat by and large tends towards the boring side.

 

[Htown]

I think the perfect MMO would be built as a single player action game, then transfered to a world server and slapped with a character progression system.

Devs, do that and THEN build the world.

Every dev jumps into building the world first, using a warrior archetype as their playtest character. After the world is fleshed out, the development time has expired by 80% so they spend the last 20% of development rush making a bunch of quests and adding filler classes to fill a quota. It is so backwards and retarded, and they end up creating a glorified server interaction program rather than a video game.

Not since Ace Ventura has a man so blatantly talked out of his ass.

 

[notworksafe]

I've always thought that WoW came out good also because MMO players made it. People that spent a lot of time playing games like EQ and seeing what was good and what was not and made their own game.

Yep. Tigole and Eno were the leaders of Legacy of Steel, the top tier EQ1 guild for many years. Furor was in Fires of Heaven, another big time EQ1 guild.

 

[duk]

Sounds like this game was rushed and sent to die, either that or funds ran out for final tesitng.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Not since Ace Ventura has a man so blatantly talked out of his ass.

It all made sense to me---I must just have a knack for understanding logic.

 

[Vespene]

They may introduce them later, but Blizzard is very good about removing things not just because of technology but because of lack of purpose. Wall jumping in particular is a bizarre request in the framework of a game like WoW.

Of course within WoW it wouldn't work, but why do MMOs have to be about traversing a massive world? I for one would love to see an MMO that's concentrated in smaller, more controlled zones, where your surroundings are as important as your enemies. In this scenario, things like platforming, climbing and swinging mechanics would greatly enhance the experience. To me it is infinitely more interesting exploring an environment in a solid 3D platformer than in an MMO, where I just autorun everywhere.

 

[BocoDragon]

I can't believe this is the same game as "Rapture", supposedly in development since 2005. Everything I'm hearing sounds like it was thrown together in a year. WTF?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Bias/Paranoia/conspiracy/etc aside, the Gametrailers review had some serious flaws with the scoring that bring the validity of the entire review into question. The presentation score should be a good 9 points lower. FFXIV looks dreadful, the environments are FFXI-grade with some bumpmapping glazed on top.

Not only that, but when you log on what happens is the game punches you in the face repeatedly until you either log off or start to enjoy it. I think it's because Squenix hates everybody who has ever bought their games and seeks to punish them. I mean, just look at FFXIII, all you do is push forward on your analog stick for 50 hours and occasionally mash X. If that's not a company which hates everybody, I don't know what is!

 

[Wallach]

Of course within WoW it wouldn't work, but why do MMOs have to be about traversing a massive world? I for one would love to see an MMO that's concentrated in smaller, more controlled zones, where your surroundings are as important as your enemies. In this scenario, things like platforming, climbing and swinging mechanics would greatly enhance the experience. To me it is infinitely more interesting exploring an environment in a solid 3D platformer than in an MMO, where I just autorun everywhere.

They're not really all about that. WoW and games like it tend to be less action based, but that is not the entire genre. Check out Global Agenda for an idea of what I mean.

 

[D23]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

what the fuck?
crazy guy is crazy.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Not only that, but when you log on what happens is the game punches you in the face repeatedly until you either log off or start to enjoy it. I think it's because Squenix hates everybody who has ever bought their games and seeks to punish them. I mean, just look at FFXIII, all you do is push forward on your analog stick for 50 hours and occasionally mash X. If that's not a company which hates everybody, I don't know what is!

You're still not doing it right.

 

[notworksafe]

Take lessons from Londa on how it's done right, please.

 

[dimb]

Yep. Tigole and Eno were the leaders of Legacy of Steel, the top tier EQ1 guild for many years. Furor was in Fires of Heaven, another big time EQ1 guild.

For accuracies sake, we should specify that World of Warcraft was headed by Tigole Bitties.

 

[Vespene]

They're not really all about that. WoW and games like it tend to be less action based, but that is not the entire genre. Check out Global Agenda for an idea of what I mean.

They tend to be now thanks to WoW's emphasis on more action. Before WoW MMOs were slower paced. WoW is more of an action-rpg when compared to its progenitors.

I love WoW, and it is my favorite game of the last decade. Hell, I'm logged on right now leveling my 3rd level 80. Before that I played FFXI and even Ultima Online. I say this because in my experience with MMOs, I only see a huge step forward when a big company comes forth and correctly implements more action into an MMO. That has been the natural evolution from UO to EQ to DAOC to WoW. Some people do get it, but sadly they don't get a lot of other important things and shit like APB and Conan happen.

But I think someday a talented developer will spice up the MMO with more action, earning its place as the next game in the MMO evolution chain after WoW.

 

[Aaron]

I can't believe this is the same game as "Rapture", supposedly in development since 2005. Everything I'm hearing sounds like it was thrown together in a year. WTF?

Yes, and that year was 2001. Shame MMOs have developed since then.

 

[-tetsuo-]

They tend to be now thanks to WoW's emphasis on more action. Before WoW MMOs were slower paced. WoW is more of an action-rpg when compared to its progenitors.

I love WoW, and it is my favorite game of the last decade. Hell, I'm logged on right now leveling my 3rd level 80. Before that I played FFXI and even Ultima Online. I say this because in my experience with MMOs, I only see a huge step forward when a big company comes forth and correctly implements more action into an MMO. That has been the natural evolution from UO to EQ to DAOC to WoW. Some people do get it, but sadly they don't get a lot of other important things and shit like APB and Conan happen.

But I think someday a talented developer will spice up the MMO with more action, earning its place as the next game in the MMO evolution chain after WoW.

I like a few MMO's than WoW, and none of them really play all that similar. The direction you are pointing to is not he only way to improve upon the genre.

 

[LaneDS]

A few more negative reviews and this thread will be longer than the OT, impressive!

 

[zlatko]

The guy clapping behind the wrestler deserves his own .gif. :lol

Hell this troll .gif is like a DOUBLE troll .gif thanks to him being back there.

Oh yeah and I just did a buncha quests with my linkshell mates in FFXIV and made out with 6,000 exp towards level 20 pugilist.

 

[HappyBivouac]

They tend to be now thanks to WoW's emphasis on more action. Before WoW MMOs were slower paced. WoW is more of an action-rpg when compared to its progenitors.

I love WoW, and it is my favorite game of the last decade. Hell, I'm logged on right now leveling my 3rd level 80. Before that I played FFXI and even Ultima Online. I say this because in my experience with MMOs, I only see a huge step forward when a big company comes forth and correctly implements more action into an MMO. That has been the natural evolution from UO to EQ to DAOC to WoW. Some people do get it, but sadly they don't get a lot of other important things and shit like APB and Conan happen.

But I think someday a talented developer will spice up the MMO with more action, earning its place as the next game in the MMO evolution chain after WoW.

A lot of people feel the exact opposite. Faster, more action-oriented combat isn't necessarily more fun in everyone's eyes.

 

[FieryBalrog]

A lot of people feel the exact opposite. Faster, more action-oriented combat isn't necessarily more fun in everyone's eyes.

Oh, its you again.

 

[suzu]

Some of you folks defending FFXIV.. you sound just a little bit crazy. Just a bit.

Also that wrestler gif is pretty amazing.

 

[Orin GA]

So what's wrong with the UI? Can someone break it down? It works fine for me.

Gonna go ahead and pull a Londa (sorry for singling you out here; I know you hate it) here and say it's probably "Well uhh I'm familiar with WoW's UI and most of the recent MMOs did a UI similar to that so uhh why isn't this like WoW? I'm a dumbass and can't be arsed to take a couple hours to get used to a different way of playing a game."

My current issues with the UI, all of which will definitely be patched in soon:

1) No inventory sorting.
2) Targeting in large groups. All they need to do is add the F1-F6 and F8 targeting functions that FFXI had.
3) UI lags a bit much.

Serious question. Have you ever played an MMO past Everquest?

 

[May16]

For the group's reference:

<thedamngrammarcops>
wow = exclamation denoting surprise or awe.

Wow = The above, when used as the first word in a sentence.

WoW = a popular MMORPG by Blizzard.

WOW = Megaton.

</thedamngrammarcops>

Please choose carefully.

 

[HappyBivouac]

Serious question. Have you ever played an MMO past Everquest?

Several. I just don't buy into the mentality of "This is 2010! All games have to follow such and such standards (more often than not set by WoW) in order to be acceptable!" I like to keep a nuanced point of view on it.

The lag and lack of functionality in the UI are both legitimate complaints. Some hotkeys to access various submenus would be nice too.

I just feel like ever since WoW the MMO community has dug itself into a rut of believing every game in the genre should play relatively the same, and anything else is "stuck in the past."

I feel like every recent MMO that has tried to streamline everything for the player has ended up a cheapened, soulless and unrewarding experience. People are going to mock this as being blatant fanboy-speak but it's just how I feel. For whatever reason I gravitate toward games that are, as most people put it, needlessly tedious. I find them more rewarding.

 

[Alex]

I've always thought that WoW came out good also because MMO players made it. People that spent a lot of time playing games like EQ and seeing what was good and what was not and made their own game.

It was kind of a hurt/help thing, for all of the progressive elements and polish in early WoW, it was also really bogged down by a lot of stupid shit that had pretty much held the entire genre down in general The Everquest element made for a lot of simple encounters, stunting of mechanics, wacky timesinks and "my way or the highway" styled game design which pretty much made their class system as shitty as the rest of the genre at first.

Once they started throwing all that out the window piece by piece in BC to Wrath to pretty much wiping it clean in a brand new visage with Cataclysm, it's really done great things for the individuality of the game and the welfare of certain aspects of the genre.

Personally my favorite MMO of all time is UO:T2A (maybe DAoC for PvP), because that's how I envision the perfect MMO in all it's freedom and with a truly living, breathing world, but for the loot n' levels archetype WoW is an IMMENSELY respectable game for what it pulled the entire MMO genre out of when it came to a lot of things.

While Cataclysm has some really amazing quest design and lots of pretty cool shit, IMO it's not the game design that really counts from WoW for the rest of the genre. It's the polish, the customer service, the support, the feature set on all the little things and keeping the ball rolling with it all in general.

You can get away with making almost any type of general game design. The pacing, the focus, the way it controls and plays, it doesn't matter as long as it's a functional and well intended design, PC gamers are open minded and good at peppering support onto deserving projects. But if it's sloppy, buggy, missing scores of content and has shady, unhelpful support that just makes it all worse, then in 2010, it's going to be word of mouth poisoned into obscruity, and that's a very good thing.

Anyone who has a history with MMOs knows that prior to WoW, there was a lot of shady shit, even the good games were able to get away with really half-assed updating and terrible service. While I just praised UO classic up there I have no problem saying that Christ Origin's live team and CS sucked shit. Most of the well built, newer titles don't try a lot of that shit anymore and it's thinning the market in good ways. No more sitting on hold with Verant while they tell you every problem with their game is because of something on your end. :lol

 

[Vespene]

@Alex

I agree. In the end, making an MMO succeed in today's market equates to pulling off a Facebook.

I like thinking of Everquest as MySpace and WoW as Facebook, who pulled the rug from under MySpace with polish and refinement, thus taking over the world. In that case... who would be Twitter?

 

[Victrix]

@Alex

I agree. In the end, making an MMO succeed in today's market equates to pulling off a Facebook.

I like thinking of Everquest as MySpace and WoW as Facebook, who pulled the rug from under MySpace with polish and refinement, thus taking over the world. In that case... who would be Twitter?

Guild Wars 2

 

[Alex]

Guild Wars 2 will be aweesommeee, I had some issues with the original but the new one looks and sounds so freaking good.

 

[Vespene]

Everyone at work is in love with GW2.

 

[Orin GA]

Several. I just don't buy into the mentality of "This is 2010! All games have to follow such and such standards (more often than not set by WoW) in order to be acceptable!" I like to keep a nuanced point of view on it.

The lag and lack of functionality in the UI are both legitimate complaints. Some hotkeys to access various submenus would be nice too.

I just feel like ever since WoW the MMO community has dug itself into a rut of believing every game in the genre should play relatively the same, and anything else is "stuck in the past."

I feel like every recent MMO that has tried to streamline everything for the player has ended up a cheapened, soulless and unrewarding experience. People are going to mock this as being blatant fanboy-speak but it's just how I feel. For whatever reason I gravitate toward games that are, as most people put it, needlessly tedious. I find them more rewarding.

But UI is not just a WOW thing, its not even just a video game thing. Good User-Interfaces allow the person to interact with a program efficiently. It doesnt get in there way, it isnt time consuming, and it doesnt make things more complicated than they need to be. How much more fun would FFXIV be if you didnt have to waste your time wading thru menus. ..THAT LAG.

So when you come in the thread, ask whats really wrong with the UI, and then wonder why people are giving you the stink eye, its because people want to play the game and not waste their $13 fighting with a piss poor UI...THAT LAGS

 

[Vespene]

It's a combination between the interface (which makes the social stuff possible), minute to minute gameplay (movement, combat and physics), and world (quests, dungeons, lore). Most companies spend all their resources developing the world part because as a creator it is always more fun to conceive a world and the story behind it. They worry about the interface and gameplay till later cause they think that the quests, dungeons and lore are what makes an MMO great, not getting that they're only seeing 1/3 of the pie.

Final Fantasy XIV is a prime example of a developer obsessed with the world and its characters. They spent years putting together massive cities within miles and miles of terrain that looked gorgeous on screenshots. That people had to travel this empty world was not their concern, cause each batch of screenshots they released made the fans more exited and they fed upon that like a drug, thinking they were on the right track.

 

[Sectus]

Why can't I wall jump?

Why doesn't my character run slower uphill, faster downhill?

Why can't my moves be performed through input combinations (ex. charge 2 secs, forward + button) instead of clicking through 5 spellbars?

Why can't I fly like in Mario 64 instead of like, well, WoW where you go up into the sky like an elevator?

Why can't there be proximity game chat?

These simple, basic design concepts that have been established by single player games for over a decade just seem to be ignored by MMOs. Of course it is more challenging to create some of these things on a server based setting, but it's 2010, and WoW's 6 year old basic gameplay still hasn't been improved upon. Surely the technology on servers has reached a point where these things can be done in an MMO.

The game that does all of this will be the WoW killer.

Here you go, the next true step in MMO gaming: http://neogaf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=407274 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDs-qphgUJk

Too bad most people will most likely ignore it because it doesn't have an open world. But gameplay wise it's a few aeons ahead of any MMO.

 

[Vespene]

Here you go, the next true step in MMO gaming: http://neogaf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=407274 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDs-qphgUJk

Too bad most people will most likely ignore it because it doesn't have an open world. But gameplay wise it's a few aeons ahead of any MMO.

Holy shit! I need to try this out.

So it's an MMO but there's no persistant world? Wouldn't that not make it an MMO?

 

[Sectus]

Holy shit! I need to try this out.

So it's an MMO but there's no persistant world? Wouldn't that not make it an MMO?

Depends on how you define MMO. Guild Wars and Dungeons and Dragons Online work the same way. Towns are basically lobbies with a ton of people, and all of the combat zones are instanced.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"So it's an MMO but there's no persistant world? Wouldn't that not make it an MMO?"

Yes. Because it's not an MMO. Most people don't consider Guild Wars and DDO MMOs, either (It's one of the main criticisms of both games, actually).

The things players want in an MMO like WoW/WAR/Jank Ass FFXI(V) aren't offered in Vindictus (and I like Vindictus a bunch) and unless TERA/Blade and Soul are decent the opposite is true as well.

 

[Haunted]

Man, that Gamespy review is scathing. Just demolishing the game, even moreso than Gamespot or Gametrailers did. IGN is more subdued in their criticism, although anyone familiar with how publisher-friendly *cough* they are knows that reading words like tedious, tiresome or mediocre are big, big warning flags.


But I guess that's all you can expect from Japan-hating outlets that hate Japan!

Bias/Paranoia/conspiracy/etc aside, the Gametrailers review had some serious flaws with the scoring that bring the validity of the entire review into question. The presentation score should be a good 9 points lower. FFXIV looks dreadful, the environments are FFXI-grade with some bumpmapping glazed on top.

Nah, FFXIV looks really good for an MMO.

 

[Conceited]

Here you go, the next true step in MMO gaming: http://neogaf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=407274 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDs-qphgUJk

Too bad most people will most likely ignore it because it doesn't have an open world. But gameplay wise it's a few aeons ahead of any MMO.

When it came out that FF14 was a steaming pile of garbage I considered trying this game, but it's not the lack of open world that bothers me, it's the class/character system, if there was more freedom there I'd gladly pick that game up.

 

[godhandiscen]

Why can't I wall jump?

Why doesn't my character run slower uphill, faster downhill?

Why can't my moves be performed through input combinations (ex. charge 2 secs, forward + button) instead of clicking through 5 spellbars?

Why can't I fly like in Mario 64 instead of like, well, WoW where you go up into the sky like an elevator?

Why can't there be proximity game chat?

These simple, basic design concepts that have been established by single player games for over a decade just seem to be ignored by MMOs. Of course it is more challenging to create some of these things on a server based setting, but it's 2010, and WoW's 6 year old basic gameplay still hasn't been improved upon. Surely the technology on servers has reached a point where these things can be done in an MMO.

The game that does all of this will be the WoW killer.

Aion does everything you want but the wall jump. I am not into Aion anymore, but it was enjoyable for a couple months.

 

[Haunted]

Here you go, the next true step in MMO gaming: http://neogaf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=407274 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDs-qphgUJk

Too bad most people will most likely ignore it because it doesn't have an open world. But gameplay wise it's a few aeons ahead of any MMO.

Combat gameplay looks better than any MMO I know of.

Or the new Dragon Age, for that matter.

 

[Zaptruder]

Square Enix needs to fire their japanese designers, hire western designers and retain japanese art-team.

Profit.

The design-management philosophy of Square-Enix in japan has simply become too overbearing for them to actually make any decent games anymore, it would seem. (Or at least make a decent MMO, or even a decent FF game).

 

[Sectus]

"So it's an MMO but there's no persistant world? Wouldn't that not make it an MMO?"

Yes. Because it's not an MMO. Most people don't consider Guild Wars and DDO MMOs, either (It's one of the main criticisms of both games, actually).

The things players want in an MMO like WoW/WAR/Jank Ass FFXI(V) aren't offered in Vindictus (and I like Vindictus a bunch) and unless TERA/Blade and Soul are decent the opposite is true as well.

Isn't that all semantics though? GW may not technically be an MMO, but it sure as hell feels like one. And it's much closer to a game like WoW, than something like Auto Assault or Ultima Online which are technically MMOs.

I'll be digressing a bit, but oh well. A big persistent world has too many drawbacks to really be worthwhile in my opinion. They're usually too huge for their own good and is mostly filler. You'll have to wait for mobs to respawn. Other players may grief you. Drastic events changing the landscape or enemy layout is impossible, and other similar dynamic elements aren't possible either. And 99% of the time you'll be playing with a small party ignoring all other players, making the whole persistence thing pointless. They're also usually not all that balanced difficulty-wise either.

I'll have to say though, my most unique and emergent experience was in a persistent world MMO. It was in WoW while I was a low level character and I traveled through the entire world (and running like mad through lots of higher level mobs) into the Horde areas. I found a small castle with allied themed enemies, which wouldn't attack me since I was an Alliance character. This had to be for some kind of horde quest. I decided to make that castle my home for a while and I spent a few hours pretending to be a boss for random horde characters trying to attack that castle. And that was insanely awesome. Too bad rest of my experience with that game were mostly negative.

Combat gameplay looks better than any MMO I know of.

Or the new Dragon Age, for that matter.

The combat even rivals action games like Devil May Cry. I've only played in the early access beta which didn't have that much content, but Vindictus is one of the most fun games I've played this year.

 

[Barrett2]

That Gametrailers review is hilarious. What a turd.

 

[Haunted]

The combat even rivals action games like Devil May Cry. I've only played in the early access beta which didn't have that much content, but Vindictus is one of the most fun games I've played this year.

I'm wary of F2P, but I'll definitely check it out once it's out.

That Gametrailers review is hilarious. What a turd.

I liked this one, earlier linked to in the thread.

 

[Sblargh]

Should I have any hope for the ps3 release?

 

[Barrett2]

I'm wary of F2P, but I'll definitely check it out once it's out.


I liked this one, earlier linked to in the thread.

That video is great. :lol