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[IrishNinja]

Sure it can, if people can get it through their heads that a 10 (or in this case, an A+) doesn't mean perfect. Unfortunately, that's one of the oldest losing battles in the history of gaming coverage. Because the average gamer, like the average human, is pretty fucking thick.

i think this is a fair point - even the best games have a few flaws/things that can be improved, so yeah, 10 = perfect is a flawed concept, no doubt.
but - and im saying this without having seen the other half of said review - with this particular example, just how glowing would the other half have to be to salvage this and still give it the highest possible score? dude says he hates the dialogue: fair enough, it's a shooter, not the genre's strength anyway. AI doesnt look good: this is a bit more damning, but even the most beloved 1st/3rd person shooters often ended up with shitty AI. matchmaking = broken: this is pretty harsh, given that this was a huge part of the gameplay, no? he's even ranking on the modes & maps offered.

let's say the other half comes back with: but the level design was outstanding, and co-op was mad fun, which is what i came for, and boy did it deliver! would that (or any other factors im leaving out, in addition to) strike you as a 10/10 review? i gotta say, game = sum of its parts is also a fair claim, but having been bored by Halo 3's single player (despite somewhat enjoying 1's SP more, as i recall), even with awesome co-op and forge mode, i'm with yahtzee, 10/10's all over the place felt slightly off.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

i think this is a fair point - even the best games have a few flaws/things that can be improved, so yeah, 10 = perfect is a flawed concept, no doubt.
but - and im saying this without having seen the other half of said review - with this particular example, just how glowing would the other half have to be to salvage this and still give it the highest possible score? dude says he hates the dialogue: fair enough, it's a shooter, not the genre's strength anyway. AI doesnt look good: this is a bit more damning, but even the most beloved 1st/3rd person shooters often ended up with shitty AI. matchmaking = broken: this is pretty harsh, given that this was a huge part of the gameplay, no? he's even ranking on the modes & maps offered.

let's say the other half comes back with: but the level design was outstanding, and co-op was mad fun, which is what i came for, and boy did it deliver! would that (or any other factors im leaving out, in addition to) strike you as a 10/10 review? i gotta say, game = sum of its parts is also a fair claim, but having been bored by Halo 3's single player (despite somewhat enjoying 1's SP more, as i recall), even with awesome co-op and forge mode, i'm with yahtzee, 10/10's all over the place felt slightly off.

All I can tell you is to read the other half of the review. It won't cost you anything but a few minutes of your time.

 

[IrishNinja]

...ok, yeah, the 2nd half sounds like a 10 for that guy. mouth = shut.:lol
i stands by my halo 3 quip, though! but yeah, its funny that this meme is almost an argument against standard reviewing: he's saying it's got glaring flaws, but he had such a tremendous time with it, he cant not give it an A+. this is the feeling i get when amirox and others trash Heavy Rain: holy shit yes, the plot just falls apart later, but when i was playing it, the tension was incredible, and i just didn't give a shit about those holes.

 

[Technosteve]

is there shortcuts for menus like ctrl i to get in to inventory menu or is there zero shortcuts? Which leads me to think this is another command based MMO

 

[neoism]

Just give Final Fantasy to Yuji Horii. Bribe him with women or something.

fuck that

 

[Wallach]

is there shortcuts for menus like ctrl i to get in to inventory menu or is there zero shortcuts? Which leads me to think this is another command based MMO

Not to my knowledge.

 

[FieryBalrog]

It just blows my mind that navigating a menu is now seen as a horrible idea in a role playing game. It makes me picture some ten-year-old freaking out at his keyboard going "WHAT ARE ALL THESE WORDS WHY CAN'T I CLICK ON PRETTY PICTURES OMG WHAT"

Are you fucking kidding me :lol

Where do you people get off, I mean really

Oh, and take a user interface design course sometime. The UI in this game is objectively shit. It takes 15 minutes and dozens of menus, confirmation screens and bullshit just to sell 50 items to a vendor. :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[markot]

I suppose Happy is still using Dos and hasnt seen the need to update to a GUI interface.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Kotaku's method of reviewing MMO's actually works pretty well for FFXIV; they solve Tycho's reviewing problem by actually making a diary of the experience. Sure, it lists the flaws, but it also shows the fun you can have that doesn't fit into the standard review categories (ie, your Linkshell "singing" I'm on a Boat).

Check out the latest part

 

[FieryBalrog]

I suppose Happy is still using Dos and hasnt seen the need to update to a GUI interface.

It just blows my mind that navigating a command line is now seen as a horrible idea in an operating system. It makes me picture some ten-year-old freaking out at his keyboard going "WHAT ARE ALL THESE WORDS WHY CAN'T I CLICK ON PRETTY PICTURES OMG WHAT"

 

[Vespene]

This is better than an E3 conference thread.

 

[RocketDarkness]

I suppose Happy is still using Dos and hasnt seen the need to update to a GUI interface.

CLI is a far better interface than anything in XIV. <,<;;

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Everyone wants FFXIV to be great and the criticism is more out of sheer, heart breaking disappointment than any sort of bias or vendetta.

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

 

[Regulus Tera]

fuck that

It would be like Chrono Trigger 2 but without time travelling. I don't see what's so bad about that.

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

I take offence on that. I hate all MMOs indiscriminately!

 

[Conceited]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

wat

 

[markot]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

Wat >.>?

I want something to take me away from wow, ive tried a few, they have all fallen flat and been... bad. I was hyped for Warhammer, Aion... after the 'new' fades away its just a lesser experience and not worth playing or sticking to. Everything I have seen and read about ff14 has been pretty awful. It just doesnt look like fun.

 

[FieryBalrog]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[BudokaiMR2]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Takuan]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

I'm OG Japanophile, back before it got flooded with a bunch of moe filth, and at one point in my life, Final Fantasy would decide which system I'd buy. Get the fuck out.

Spoiler

It's not something I'm proud of.

I agree that a vocal portion of the haters might be anti-Japan/WoW-biased, but a LOT of GAF is huge on Japanophilia and all that comes with it. I think in the case of FFXIV, the only people bothered by the DESERVEDLY harsh criticism are folks like you, however you'd like to be categorized. If even Shouta is able to openly point out the game's faults, I don't know what kind of uber-God-tier Japanophile/Final Fantasy zealot/unknown category your ilk must belong to.

 

[Wallach]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

 

[Teknopathetic]

Maybe the game's just shit, bros. Like FFXI.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I'm OG Japanophile, back before it got flooded with a bunch of moe filth, and at one point in my life, Final Fantasy would decide which system I'd buy. Get the fuck out.

Spoiler

It's not something I'm proud of.

I agree that a vocal portion of the haters might be anti-Japan/WoW-biased, but a LOT of GAF is huge on Japanophilia and all that comes with it. I think in the case of FFXIV, the only people bothered by the DESERVEDLY harsh criticism are folks like you, however you'd like to be categorized. If even Shouta is able to openly point out the game's faults, I don't know what kind of uber-God-tier Japanophile/Final Fantasy zealot/unknown category your ilk must belong to.

K-ON!! fans.

 

[Vespene]

I can't get enough of troll wrestler.

 

[Takuan]

Maybe the game's just shit, bros. Like FFXI.

Shots fired.

ABUSE OF POWER - YOU! :lol

 

[nataku]

So what's wrong with the UI? Can someone break it down? It works fine for me.

C'mon. :lol

The UI is slow as hell. It take 3-5 seconds to do anything when selling, in the retainer system, or in the crafting UI. And that ignores the 1-2 seconds loading in every other part of the UI.

Not to mention all the steps and confirmations I have to do for things. Take crafting for example. How many different steps and confirmations do you go through when not doing a levequest? This is off the top of my head. I can't be bothered to load the game up just to make sure I have the steps right, but I'm pretty sure I do.

1. Open the main menu and select sythesis
2. Click on the first craft slot
3. Select the first ingredient
4. Click the second craft slot
5. Select the second ingredient
6. Click the third craft slot
7. Select the third ingredient
8. Click the fourth craft slot
9. Select the fourth ingredient
10. Select Main or Off hand
11. Select the item you want to craft
12. Confirm what you want to craft
13. Confirm again what you want to craft
14. Finally start crafting, which has you go through a minute or two of clicking options in a list

And that's only for a 4 ingredient synth! You'd have to add 8 more steps if you were trying a full 8 ingredient synth, which I'll admit, seem uncommon at this point. Two steps per extra ingredient. To top it off, after going through all that, it only crafts 1 item! If you have enough ingredients to craft 12 items, you have to repeat all that shit 12 more times! Keep in mind all the delays between each step, too.

Is it really so hard for SE to provide a "Repeat last synth" option? Why can't I have a recipe book of recipes I've discovered that lets me click on one so it automatically puts the ingredients in the synth slots so I don't have to add it all one by one, for each synth?

There is no reason why SE can't let us use keyobard shortcuts for various UI elements, either. They got it right with "M" for Map, so why can't I hit "J" for Journal? "K" for Skills? "I" for inventory? "P" for my character equipment or point distribution?

Or the fact that I have to use ijkl to scroll around the map. What's wrong with just... clicking and dragging?

Honestly, that's probably just scratching the surface. I'm sure I'll think of more, but I think you get the point. The UI is a mess, and one of the biggest issues with the game.

 

[jman2050]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

Yeah, it's probably not a good idea for you to be venturing outside the animu thread.

 

[Victrix]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

YOU HAVE CRACKED THE SECRET CODE DETECTIVE AZUNYAN

 

[Finaika]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

smh

 

[notworksafe]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

Delusional.

Also a perfect representation for the clowns that make up the majority of the XI/XIV fanbase.

 

[-tetsuo-]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

You so crazy

 

[Teknopathetic]

Bias/Paranoia/conspiracy/etc aside, the Gametrailers review had some serious flaws with the scoring that bring the validity of the entire review into question. The presentation score should be a good 9 points lower. FFXIV looks dreadful, the environments are FFXI-grade with some bumpmapping glazed on top.

 

[Ferrio]

Bias/Paranoia/conspiracy/etc aside, the Gametrailers review had some serious flaws with the scoring that bring the validity of the entire review into question. The presentation score should be a good 9 points lower. FFXIV looks dreadful, the environments are FFXI-grade with some bumpmapping glazed on top.

Why do you have to kick a man when he's down?

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Bias/Paranoia/conspiracy/etc aside, the Gametrailers review had some serious flaws with the scoring that bring the validity of the entire review into question. The presentation score should be a good 9 points lower. FFXIV looks dreadful, the environments are FFXI-grade with some bumpmapping glazed on top.

Don't forget copypasta rocks.

 

[markot]

The problem with wow, is that any new mmo, criticism is often dismissed as 'Wow fanbois lol'...

I remember with Warhammer, the devs wanted people to forget wow when they played warhammer during beta. As though that was the problem with the game... not the huge flaws with the entire game...

 

[Ferrio]

The problem with wow, is that any new mmo, criticism is often dismissed as 'Wow fanbois lol'...

I remember with Warhammer, the devs wanted people to forget wow when they played warhammer during beta. As though that was the problem with the game... not the huge flaws with the entire game...

Well I have to agree on some part you do have to forget wow, or atleast acknowledge it's been out awhile. No game is going to rival it out the gate, and you have to make note of that. Of course that doesn't mean you can forgive a game for completely dropping the damn ball.

 

[Vespene]

Bias/Paranoia/conspiracy/etc aside, the Gametrailers review had some serious flaws with the scoring that bring the validity of the entire review into question. The presentation score should be a good 9 points lower. FFXIV looks dreadful, the environments are FFXI-grade with some bumpmapping glazed on top.

 

[markot]

The problem is wow got the basics right, and you have to build from that. The battle system.

Warhammer again, weeks before launch they totally overhauled the battle system. They had dismissed complaints for so long as 'wow players' but there was a glaring fault that should have been a basic, the first thing that they concentrated on. And even now, tried warhammer again a week ago, the system is still behind wow, it just isnt as fun to play, even the basics at the lowest levels wow is superior. Its not the content, its the... basic framework. Chat was broken completely weeks into launch, zones were like... 5 feet in size it was just stupid you changed chat channels so often...

No game can compete content wise with wow that has been out for 6 years now, but they can improve on the combat, the crafting, the basics there. But they all have failed imo, they make the game too grindy, they make the combat unfufilling, they... just seem to be stuck in the mmo past.

Wow isnt perfect, and it shouldnt be the reference point for anyone. But if you cant make a fun combat system, a decent crafting system and social/economic system, you are doomed.

 

[Takuan]

Bias/Paranoia/conspiracy/etc aside, the Gametrailers review had some serious flaws with the scoring that bring the validity of the entire review into question. The presentation score should be a good 9 points lower. FFXIV looks dreadful, the environments are FFXI-grade with some bumpmapping glazed on top.

>< tsundere~

I dunno, FFXI had some pretty nice environments, and from what I saw in the Yogscast videos, so does FFXIV. They just looked barren (probably because of the beta) and were so huge that traveling to destinations and back looked like such a chore. I'm partial to animu art, so I'm BIAS in that regard.

:3

._.

 

[Kandinsky]

lol

 

[Vespene]

The problem is wow got the basics right, and you have to build from that. The battle system.

This. This. A million times this.

EVERY MMO out there doesn't get this. If it takes 3 of the 4 years in development to build the combat system, then DO SO. This is the unsung soul of an MMO that always gets ignored in favor of world building, graphics and stupid lore bullshit.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

>< tsundere~

I dunno, FFXI had some pretty nice environments, and from what I saw in the Yogscast videos, so does FFXIV. They just looked barren (probably because of the beta) and were so huge that traveling to destinations and back looked like such a chore. I'm partial to animu art, so I'm BIAS in that regard.

:3

._.

I thought they were at least decent too, until I saw the examples of blatant copy and pasting. It was like being stuck in some weird twilight zone deja vu area.

 

[Takuan]

I thought they were at least decent too, until I saw the examples of blatant copy and pasting. It was like being stuck in some weird twilight zone deja vu area.

There was nothing wrong with those zones in FFXI, so I don't see why they should have wasted resources into remaking them. If anything, they should be applauded for efficiency.

 

[Kodiak]

My process for FFIV



-What? It's being announced already?
-What? It's really far along already?
-What? It's in beta already?
-What? It's coming out already?
-What? It's a steaming pile of shit.
-Boy I sure hope Agito is good.


Seriously, at this point Agito is my only remaining hope for Final Fantasy.

 

[-tetsuo-]

There was nothing wrong with those zones in FFXI, so I don't see why they should have wasted resources into remaking them. If anything, they should be applauded for efficiency.

:lol

 

[Mairu]

That's a pretty huge load of shit. Most of the haters in this thread just hate Japan, hate JRPGs, hate Final Fantasy, and want any MMOG not WoW to fail.

Spoiler

I wish I was joking or trolling, but I'm not. And that's just sad.

WOAH. Are you for real?

 

[FieryBalrog]

This. This. A million times this.

EVERY MMO out there doesn't get this. If it takes 3 of the 4 years in development to build the combat system, then DO SO. This is the unsung soul of an MMO that always gets ignored in favor of world building, graphics and stupid lore bullshit.

I've always said that the secret to WoW's success, above all else, is that Blizzard made the granular experience of the game so crisp- the experience you get at the smallest level of the game. The act of running, jumping, fighting and spellcasting- the actions that you are going to do hundreds of thousands of times, if not millions, over the course of the MMO- are themselves smooth and crisp. If moving and interacting with the world are not fun, then no amount of content is really going to make up for it.

Its a lesson they learned well from diablo 2.

 

[Vespene]

Why can't I wall jump?

Why doesn't my character run slower uphill, faster downhill?

Why can't my moves be performed through input combinations (ex. charge 2 secs, forward + button) instead of clicking through 5 spellbars?

Why can't I fly like in Mario 64 instead of like, well, WoW where you go up into the sky like an elevator?

Why can't there be proximity game chat?

These simple, basic design concepts that have been established by single player games for over a decade just seem to be ignored by MMOs. Of course it is more challenging to create some of these things on a server based setting, but it's 2010, and WoW's 6 year old basic gameplay still hasn't been improved upon. Surely the technology on servers has reached a point where these things can be done in an MMO.

The game that does all of this will be the WoW killer.

 

[Lost Fragment]

I love this thread so much.

 

[Htown]

Not to mention all the steps and confirmations I have to do for things. Take crafting for example. How many different steps and confirmations do you go through when not doing a levequest? This is off the top of my head. I can't be bothered to load the game up just to make sure I have the steps right, but I'm pretty sure I do.

1. Open the main menu and select sythesis
2. Click on the first craft slot
3. Select the first ingredient
4. Click the second craft slot
5. Select the second ingredient
6. Click the third craft slot
7. Select the third ingredient
8. Click the fourth craft slot
9. Select the fourth ingredient
10. Select Main or Off hand
11. Select the item you want to craft
12. Confirm what you want to craft
13. Confirm again what you want to craft
14. Finally start crafting, which has you go through a minute or two of clicking options in a list

And that's only for a 4 ingredient synth! You'd have to add 8 more steps if you were trying a full 8 ingredient synth, which I'll admit, seem uncommon at this point. Two steps per extra ingredient. To top it off, after going through all that, it only crafts 1 item! If you have enough ingredients to craft 12 items, you have to repeat all that shit 12 more times! Keep in mind all the delays between each step, too.

Is it really so hard for SE to provide a "Repeat last synth" option? Why can't I have a recipe book of recipes I've discovered that lets me click on one so it automatically puts the ingredients in the synth slots so I don't have to add it all one by one, for each synth?

There is no reason why SE can't let us use keyobard shortcuts for various UI elements, either. They got it right with "M" for Map, so why can't I hit "J" for Journal? "K" for Skills? "I" for inventory? "P" for my character equipment or point distribution?

Or the fact that I have to use ijkl to scroll around the map. What's wrong with just... clicking and dragging?

Honestly, that's probably just scratching the surface. I'm sure I'll think of more, but I think you get the point. The UI is a mess, and one of the biggest issues with the game.

Wait. It's a PC RPG, and you can't just hit a single button to pull up your inventory?

WAT.

You're telling me it takes all that to craft something? This all sounds insane to me.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I've always said that the secret to WoW's success, above all else, is that Blizzard made the granular experience of the game so crisp- the experience you get at the smallest level of the game. The act of running, jumping, fighting and spellcasting- the actions that you are going to do hundreds of thousands of times, if not millions, over the course of the MMO- are themselves smooth and crisp. If moving and interacting with the world are not fun, then no amount of content is really going to make up for it.

Its a lesson they learned well from diablo 2.

Yup. WoW and Blizzard kind of remind me of Nintendo in this regard. Everyone points and laments that it's not fair to compare like they have some kind of magic wish-granting unicorn that puts their products into that awesome/universally appealing category. No, they fucking did their homework. Want your MMO to be as good as WoW? You don't need a pact with Satan, just fucking do the research and don't let shit slide.

Square just kind of shut their eyes and ears on this and the result is exactly what you would expect: a game that has seemingly learned nothing from the last eight years of MMO development.