Honest to god the fact that Daniel Radcliffe is a short dude makes me feel so good about also being a tiny man.
Completely unrelated to people gettin' huffy but seriously.
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First official Harry Potter and The Cursed Child pictures
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Honest to god the fact that Daniel Radcliffe is a short dude makes me feel so good about also being a tiny man.
Completely unrelated to people gettin' huffy but seriously.
In a way, that's actually part of my point. It actually is cool and weird that Radcliffe wasn't 6'2" or something. It's weird that "scruffy" Hermoine grew up to be stunning (not that boys were complaining about that source deviation).
That's all part of the beauty of casting. You get short Harry and gorgeous Hermoine; you get things you may not have otherwise expected but now mean something personally to you.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
It's really funny seeing people complain about race in a theater production
What's with all the gay people in Rent?
Oh for sure. It's absolutely part of the point with the casting and a larger overall point.
I'm a short guy and I feel better about my height because someone that is considered successful and played a role that impacted many of our childhood/teenage years is also short. He could have been super tall, but because he's short I can identify with the man--and the character to some extent--more because of it. There are a million tall dudes in media so let me have a short guy, dammit.
Being short isn't nearly as drastic as something like race, so try to imagine how nice it must be to see someone of your own race be represented by a character that you grew up, especially one that was a pretty positive role model for younger girls to grow up with. Especially a race that is traditionally underrepresented.
That's a more genuine approach than "well i never specifically wrote her to be white", which is rather disingenuous.
There's the "white face" line in the books, there's the imagery of the books that are, by all means, canon.
There's the films that are, by all means, canon.
There's the fact that any non-white person was specifically described as non-white in the books.
There's no shame in the fact that Hermione was white in the books and the film, nor is there shame in the fact that she's black in the play. Because her ethnicity doesn't have an influence on her narrative in the story. (i think Griss has a very good point 'B' though)
Still, i think the whole 'look closely, i never explicitly wrote >>caucasian-looking-girl<<' spiel is dumb, because it's the wrong argument to be made. It's deflecting the fact that they made a conscious choice of simply changing Hermione's ethnicity in this specific portrayal of her.
It's not about "what race is Hermione REALLY" but "does her skin colour actually matter in what makes her her?" - obviously: No.
but Rowling, back then, did. She literally stated that Hermione is kind of an author surrogate.
How are the films "by all means, canon"? There's a ton of variation from the books in the movies. Whole sections removed or changed, whole characters recast, plots retooled, etc.
Also, this implies that characters are white by default unless explicitly said so, which doesn't have to be the case.
Well, i do believe the films would be much more canon as to the visual appearance of our characters as the books would be, film being a visual medium and all.
Rowling had pretty much full control over the films, so whatever way the characters were portrayed in the movies at that time were most certainly sanctioned if not demanded by her to look that way.
which doesn't have to be the case, but which kinda was the case in the book series.
Again, i'm not saying any of the character's ethnicities can:
* never be subject to change
* have to be made explicitly one or the other for canon reasons
I'm just saying the whole "hah! joke's on you! i never explicitly wrote her to be white" line is a lame cop-out. She was white. Now she's black. She's still Hermione.
https://www.pottermore.com/explore-the-story/hermione-granger
all white portrayals here, too.
If she's so obviously "ethnically ambiguous" why did every Rowling sanctioned visual representation of her, up until now, look exactly the same?
The Cretan
Member
If Hermione's race has not been specified and if Rowling loves black Hermione, then I'm fine with the choice.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I really hope this gets properly published as a book at some point. Not the screen play thing but an actual book
I get your points but you can also have movies where the actors look nothing like the original book characters. Jack Reacher is a muscle bound 6' 5" beast in the books but he's Tom Cruise in the movies for example. It happens and I find people lose their shit over this stuff far too easily before even seeing the final product.
CatalogDave
Banned
impotent fans are the worst.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Not that it matters but
JK's own words
Official art also shows her as white, Pottermore adaptations of scenes, cover art for the books and sketches by Rowling.
Maybe the most annoying thing is JK trying to justify it with shit like
She was Canon white, just admit it and say that Noma Dumezweni was the best actress who auditioned for the role, Tell fans that the colour of the skin doesn't matter as it's not integeral to her character. But don't act like she was always racially ambiguous because she was not
yeah, again, i'm not losing my shit.
But dodging the honest "yeah, she was white in the books, white in the movies, black in the play, what does it matter, fuck off!" answer by means of a technicality, ignoring the plethora of 'evidence' that Rowling clearly imagined her to be a white girl is dumb.
It would be a much more powerful gesture to say "yeah, she's black now" than "you're the ones who gave her a certain ethnicity in your heads! i never did! hah!".
Again, i'm all pro-black-Hermione.
I think the most important part of her statement is that she doesn't mind a black Hermione and if she doesn't why does everyone else get so caught up in the change? It's basically to shut up the people who are less concerned about Harry Potter and more worried that a "white" character is now being depicted as black and who are probably ignorant of how theater casting works.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Draco looks like he should be co-hosting Clueless Gamer.
Not that it matters but
JK's own words
Official art also shows her as white, Pottermore adaptations of scenes, cover art for the books and sketches by Rowling.
Maybe the most annoying thing is JK trying to justify it with shit like
She was Canon white, just admit it and say that Noma Dumezweni was the best actress who auditioned for the role, Tell fans that the colour of the skin doesn't matter as it's not integeral to her character. But don't act like she was always racially ambiguous because she was not
She loves to rustle people's jimmies. Especially on twitter.
This is her own drawing of the characters.
Whether if it's intentional or unintentional that she never mentioned Hermoine's skin color in text, she's clearly white even by her own admission.
She just likes that the ambiguity allows a different race for the character, and CLEARLY enjoys trolling the shit out of people who are offended by a black face.
End of story.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Some of the posts in this thread
It's 2016. Jeeeesus christ.
It's 2016. Jeeeesus christ.
Inferno313
Banned
She loves to rustle people's jimmies.
This is her own drawing of the characters.
Yes, but that's not canon. The text in the novels is canon and that's it.
She's not saying: "Actually Hermione was always secretly black"
She's saying: "There's nothing in the books that says Hermione can't be black."
It clearly doesn't shut up people, because it makes people argue about what consitutes canon, especially when it comes to visual representation of a book character.
Rowling's cheaply dodging the unpleasant question of Hermione's ethnicity by saying "none". Which is a non-answer.
Even if her ethnicity is irrelevant to her character arc, and hasn't been explicitely named in the books, Hermione has a backstory and a certain pigmentation.
I think the way Rowling tries to wiggle out of this question via a technicality makes it a bigger deal than a simple "well, i considered her some kind of representation of a younger me, so back then i imagined her to be similar to me in looks, and i'm obviously white, but since her ethnicity isn't a character trait of hers, her portrayal in the play by Noma Dumezweni is the best stage portrayal i could imagine."
Whether if it's intentional or unintentional that she never mentioned Hermoine's skin color in text, she's clearly white even by her own admission via that drawing. If she was anything else she would have drawn it so. So maybe she's not white because the text doesn't explicitly state it, but she drew a picture of the character for fucks sake.
She just likes that the ambiguity allows a different race for the character, and CLEARLY enjoys trolling the shit out of people who are offended by a black face on a previously white character.
WadiumArcadium
Member
You forgot Gary? He's the most important character in the story.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
She loves to rustle people's jimmies. Especially on twitter.
This is her own drawing of the characters.
Whether if it's intentional or unintentional that she never mentioned Hermoine's skin color in text, she's clearly white even by her own admission.
She just likes that the ambiguity allows a different race for the character, and CLEARLY enjoys trolling the shit out of people who are offended by a black face.
End of story.
White Hermione next to Black Gary who in later drafts was renamed Dean Thomas. She clearly shaded Dean/Garys skin
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dean_Thomas
Agent Gibbs
Member
The books and films established cannon of the main storyline with Hermoine as white
more eloquent people than me have made the cases for this, Rowling is being a little disingenuous to put her approval behind a stage show
the last part is the bit people are missing, this is not main cannon it is a stage show, a play, a theatrical production where gender and skin colour have not been a barrier to anything for god know how long, in fact its almost tradition to cast men as women and women as men, to take risks, to make a twist on a play to make it unique, to put on their own stamp.
So in the context of this play, its okay, it has no difference.
If they do a movie and IF it follows this plot, they'll just get back Watson anyway to reprise her role
more eloquent people than me have made the cases for this, Rowling is being a little disingenuous to put her approval behind a stage show
the last part is the bit people are missing, this is not main cannon it is a stage show, a play, a theatrical production where gender and skin colour have not been a barrier to anything for god know how long, in fact its almost tradition to cast men as women and women as men, to take risks, to make a twist on a play to make it unique, to put on their own stamp.
So in the context of this play, its okay, it has no difference.
If they do a movie and IF it follows this plot, they'll just get back Watson anyway to reprise her role
and even had an Arsenio-Hall-ass haircut
i don't agree with discrediting "stage canon" as some kind of second rate canon, keeping precious white Hermione in "A-canon".
I would much more embrace the official change from "white girl" to "black woman" than from "undefined"(Schroedinger's skin colour!) to "black woman".
because that would just reinforce the fact that something like "blackwashing" can only happen in cases where the author left a loophole by always omitting descriptions of skin colour.
It's like black characters where the colour of their skin doesn't play a part in their story arc have to be "smuggled" into the story. :/
Again: the argument shouldn't be "Hermione can be black because she was never explicitely white in the first place" but rather "Hermione can be black because, even if she was indeed white before, fuck off, that actress is great."
Inferno313
Banned
Where is the outrage for Harry's stage actor for not having green eyes? That matters a hell of a lot more than Hermione being white which was mentioned so rarely that even Rowling forgot that she even described her skin color in the text.
Well, Rowling drew it so Gary is now canon and his existence can never be questioned.
Well, Rowling drew it so Gary is now canon and his existence can never be questioned.
Lokimaru
Member
If I had to pick a Black Hermione she'd have the hair and skin tone of Beyonce' or Antonia Thomas. I swear it's like your not considered black if your not dark as hell. Hell Rose at least SHOULD be light-skinned yet is as dark as her mother. How does that even happen genetic-wise?
Inferno313
Banned
Because it's a play and not real life. Plenty of different girls will have played Rose by the time this ends. I'd actually argue the opposite though, dark-skinned black women are even less seen than light-skinned black women in media. Especially when it comes to portraying a character who is supposed to be seen as sexy, or beautiful, films and TV almost always cast a light-skinned black woman for those parts.
LSauchelli
Member
Yeah, she definitely wrote that Hermione's face was white and all the art shows her as white.
With that said... Who cares? It doesn't change anything at all about the character because her race was never ever an important part of her character.
With that said... Who cares? It doesn't change anything at all about the character because her race was never ever an important part of her character.
At this point I'm gonna pull a Star Wars and ask why canon is so important in the first place. It's not like you're inhabiting that world or you need to write within strict guidelines imposed on you.
If you liked something you don't have to stop liking it because it's not "canon." The "canon" changing doesn't mean that what you appreciated about the thing has changed in any demonstrable way.
Who cares?
If you liked something you don't have to stop liking it because it's not "canon." The "canon" changing doesn't mean that what you appreciated about the thing has changed in any demonstrable way.
Who cares?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Petty, boring, questionable people.
Well you are reading into a bit more than I am. I don't see her wiggling out of it because she can do whatever she wants as the author. This is a stage play first of all, holding "canons" as dogma is not something most theater people, even huge Harry Potter fans, are likely to give a shit about. They want to put on a good show and keep it faithful to the spirit of the books, not the exacting details.
Again the people arguing about canon in the first place or whatever are losing the point before the argument even began.
Lokimaru
Member
This is a Play and not a Movie? Then who the fuck cares what races she is? She could be Chinese as long as she brings the character to life on stage.
well, Rowling is talking about "canon"
and the author, of all people, saying the official canon is that 'her skin colour / ethnicity is undefined' is imho a lame cop-out.
Rowling is no stranger to adding her vision / intention to characters, retroactively making something canon - like Dumbledore's sexual orientation.
Which is why it's even more baffling that she's trying to dodge the question at hand here.
And again - i don't want to hear "yeah, she was white in the books" for the sake of arguing that she can't be black in the play. Quite the opposite actually.
Haha, Malfoy looks like Michael Rosen.
well, Rowling is talking about "canon"
and the author, of all people, saying the official canon is that 'her skin colour / ethnicity is undefined' is imho a lame cop-out.
Rowling is no stranger to adding her vision / intention to characters, retroactively making something canon - like Dumbledore's sexual orientation.
Which is why it's even more baffling that she's trying to dodge the question at hand here.
And again - i don't want to hear "yeah, she was white in the books" for the sake of arguing that she can't be black in the play. Quite the opposite actually.
I mean she does mention canon referring to things like her hair and stuff, not her skin which is again I think the major point. People are getting upset because they hold the books on some golden pedestal that can never be changed or they are just butt hurt that a character that has been depicted as white in all incarnations isn't anymore. Personally to the super hardcore fans who can't let go and get mad over what the author is stating in a Tweet make me chuckle. Just go with whats in your head if its that important but again I think the race thing is being blown out of proportion before anyone even know's if the story in the play is any good.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Hermoine being black is awesome. Doesn't matter if it goes against cannon. I'm assuming she auditioned best for the part, so they chose her.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Not sure about the books but I think a lot of fans, including me, take from the movies and I guess there's this dissonance now.
BetterThanNothing
Member
So, what are the odds that we'll get some type of film release of the play itself? I'm not really familiar with plays in general, is this a common practice for popular plays with large production values?
ThanksVision
Member
Is that young Nate Drake from U4
Roufianos
Member
It bothers me that Hermione is black.
Not because I'm racist but because it destroys any sense of continuity with the movies and book covers where she's clearly depicted as white.
I would be just as bothered if a white guy played the Darpa Chief in an MGS movie or Cole in a Gears movie.
I just don't understand the point of it, all of the other characters look close enough to what I'd imagine and then for no reason whatsoever they have Hermione breaking all of the immersion.
Surely one of the first criteria for casting Hermione is that the actor actually looks like the past depictions.
It's amazing how quickly people love to play the racism card.
Not because I'm racist but because it destroys any sense of continuity with the movies and book covers where she's clearly depicted as white.
I would be just as bothered if a white guy played the Darpa Chief in an MGS movie or Cole in a Gears movie.
I just don't understand the point of it, all of the other characters look close enough to what I'd imagine and then for no reason whatsoever they have Hermione breaking all of the immersion.
Surely one of the first criteria for casting Hermione is that the actor actually looks like the past depictions.
It's amazing how quickly people love to play the racism card.
It's not about the racism card (however apparent it might be). "Destroys any sense of continuity", "breaks my immersion", "Must look like past depictions".
Do you not see that these are all ridiculous arguments that 1) fly in the face of the history of theater and adapting art and 2) sound like drama is some unadaptable, uninterpretable medium that must adhere and respect to your history like it's some Marvel movie bending to comic nerds.
It is not a movie. Even then, why should that be the criteria?
Why is this about what you imagine and not about getting the right actor for the role? The actor that brings the character to life!
Emma Watson looked almost nothing like Hermione was described. They had to poof out her hair and they eventually gave up on that. Buck teeth? Nah son.
Also to use the book covers is hilarious. Look up how any given, and popular, character is represented on the book covers against what they "actually look like."
Go on, look up Rand Al'thor on the American book covers and then look him up on the Japanese book covers. We'll be waiting!
Steve Youngblood
Member
Personally, I'd like to sidestep the race angle here for a moment and just address that I really don't see the importance of this at all. I mean, I do get a desire to default to tradition. But I also don't understand a needless adherence to it. I'm not suggesting that you have to change things just to change things. But I also don't understand why it is hugely important that from now until the end of time (or the end of Harry Potter's relevance, whichever comes first) any depiction of Hermione must vaguely resemble Emma Watson. Who cares?
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