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Fitness |OT8| Dad Bods, Bulge Swelfies, and Wait...Do you even lift bro?

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despire

Member
From the Renaissance Diet book...


I know you've made it known how much energy you have without food, but that could be explained by either...

1.) you're an outlier to the above research
2.) the placebo effect is very strong. If you want something to work you'll think it's working
3.) you could potentially have a LOT more energy with food compared to what you think is high energy.

Just offering another perspective since you seem to be researching this a lot.

Just offering my two cents..

Regarding the amino acid issue, I don't know where they pulled the 8 hour time limit but it seems weird. We know that it can take almost as long for a big meal to digest and even after that there are amino acids flowing around for much longer. Proper fasted state doesn't even start until 10-12hr after your last meal AFAIK. Also 8hr would mean that everyone would be in a catabolic state after nights sleep and would have to run to the protein shaker right after waking up, which everyone agrees is a ridiculous thought. Dunno, I have it hard time to believe the human body would be stupid enough to turn to it's most valued and important tissues (regarding survival) as soon as you go a few hours without food. How would we still be here as a species if every time caveman Ogg couldn't find a mammoth for a few days, his body would start to turn on it's own muscle tissues when there's plenty of fat stored just for that reason? Why not use the fat when it's there for just that very purpose? This would just lead to a downward spiral where each time this happened (often probably), Ogg would have harder time killing prey because his muscles would shrink away. Now I'm not saying there's no catabolism at all but rather is it at a rate we can notice or should be worried about? Don't think so. If we are talking experts, Brad Pilon has said that even fasting up to 72hr shouldn't produce any measurable muscle loss, and he only recommends 24hr once or twice a week so there should not be any issues. As for anectdotal evidence, many proponents of IF seem to be pretty muscular and ripped even after doing it extended time, so I don't think this is a real issue. Personally I have a little more muscle mass than I did when I started fasting for 24hr periods instead of 16hr. Would I have more if I hadn't fasted and dieted the traditional way? I don't know but I don't think so. Also aren't we past that eat every two hours advice? It works for some but there's really no reason to eat that often, other that your own personal preferences.

Also regarding catabolizing of muscle tissue and gluconeogenesis, why is it always assumed that the body will immediately turn to protein as a source. When you burn body fat, glycerol (a sugar and the backbone of molecules which make up your fat tissue) is released and can also be used in gluconeogenesis. So taking into account that you have plenty of fat to burn, there should be sugar floating around during fasting in your bloodstream, which can be used instead of protein if/when needed. Or at least that's what I've read. Someone correct if they have better info, I'd like to know as much as I can.

Regarding nutrition, I personally train at 6am. I would not be getting up at 4am to eat some pre-workout meal anyway so it doesn't really change anything in that respect. I am going to be fasted (or near fasted) anyway and I haven't seen any detrimental effects now that I've gotten accustomed to this. Would I be stronger if I would have some meal before training? Probably. But I'm not gonna get up at the middle of the night to eat. That would be ridiculous. If you are training in the afternoon it's a different story of course.

What I find most fascinating right now about dieting Eat Stop Eat way vs traditional dieting is this:
>We know that a traditional, reduced calorie diet results in lowered metabolic rate eventually which is not taken into account often enough imo. This is how the body copes with suddenly lowered food intake. It lowers the metabolism to keep you alive longer, by making do with the lesser amount of calories. This is a fact and unavoidable. This slows the rate of fat loss down but more importantly it also primes you for a rebound by making you gain weight more easily when a normal diet is resumed. Refeeds might help with this issue somewhat though.

>We also know for a fact that intermittent fasting raises your metabolic rate up. It only starts to drop in response to fasting after +48hrs or +72hrs, depending on the study. Anyway we know that in the least, if you fast up to two days your metabolic rate will go up, not slow down. This is specific to fasting. If you eat even a little and break your fast, you lose the benefit.

>These two are basically opposite of each other. Other results in lowered metabolic rate while the other does not. Both methods burn body fat.

>If IF raises metabolic rate during fasting, does it also keep at the baseline levels during feeding or does it drop for some reason similar to traditional calorie restriction? Sounds unlikely if you are eating at maintenance level or higher.

>Does fasting really lower your body set point weight? BSW is probably the most important way how your body fights the weight loss and tries to make you gain weight after dieting. Your body wants to be at the BSW, which is usually a lard ass. If you can lower this to your new, lean weight, it would help solve so many issues with weight regain. We know that at least with traditional dieting, BSW does not change even after maintaining the new weight for a year. Your body still wants to get fat after all that time.

>So if IF allows you to burn fat and get leaner without lowering your metabolic rate in the meantime, can it be argued to be superior method, at least for some people? Would be fascinating to find some more on this.

Of course everyone is selling something and are therefore biased. Proponents of IF are making a buck on books and personal training so of course they try to make IF sound as good as they can. Same for the RD book. The author is selling his own method, which is not IF in the slightest, so there's a reason for him to argue that his method is better. Otherwise why would people use it over something else. Everyone believes they are right and everyone else is wrong. Everything else is a fad and should not be taken seriously. But we know that everything works of course and have to remember that. There's no one magic method. Eating every two hours can work, same as for fasting. Everything works, at least for some time.

Also I'm not sure how anyone can call fasting a fad when it's been around much longer than any other diet method. Sure it has seen a new resurgence in the last 10-15 years with IF but it has always been a part of human existence. Either as an involuntary part of daily lives, when no food was available (our entire existence as a species), or as a voluntary therapeutic method for different purposes in every major religion etc. (for at least few millenia). Our bodies are designed to endure fasting. It is good for us. That's when our bodies repair themselves and get rid of damaged cells. We are designed to live a life of fasting and feasting. Times of scarcity and times of plenty. Mammoth and no mammoth. This way of being constantly fed and (over)nourished is a phenomenon that is only possible in a modern human society where food is everywhere and available all the time. It's not normal if you look it in a historical and evolutionary perspective. There's plenty of evidence in that our bodies do better when they are not in a fed state all the time. I'm not saying that everyone needs to fast but I can't take anyone seriously who says that you should eat 8 meals a day. Do what you prefer says I, be it one meal or ten meals. Personally I prefer 3-4 meals when I'm not fasting. Anymore becomes a hassle and I don't see the benefit. You just eat a bunch of small meals and have to carry food everywhere.
 

ILoveBish

Member
I like 1 or 0 meals a day. I used to eat 5-7 or more meals a day. Body adapts to what you put it through. We're not fragile little butterflies.
 

SeanR1221

Member
Good counterpoints Despire.

A few things.

- When they say after 8 hours amino acids come from muscle, let's both think of this critically.

Maybe it's a case where it pulls from fat AND muscle. My guy reports the muscle. Your guy reports the fat ;). It's like you said, who has their hand where.

- I wouldn't immediately dismiss multiple meals a day.

From the study I posted

Based on recent research, it appears that skeletal muscle protein synthesis on a per meal basis may be optimized at approximately 20 to 30 grams of high qual- ity protein, or 10-15 grams of essential amino acids [71-73]. In order to optimize skeletal muscle protein balance, an individual will likely need to maximize the response on a per meal basis. Research shows that a typical American diet distributes their protein intake unequally, such that the least amount of protein is con- sumed with breakfast (~10-14 grams), while the majority of protein is consumed with dinner (~29-42 grams) [74]. Thus, in the American diet, protein synthesis would likely only be optimized once per day with dinner. This was recently demonstrated by Wilson et al. [75] in a published abstract (utilizing a rodent model). The inves- tigators found that equally distributing protein over three meals (16% per meal) resulted in greater overall protein synthesis and muscle mass, in comparison to providing suboptimal protein (8%) at breakfast and lunch, and greater than optimal protein (27%) with din- ner [75]. In eucaloric meal frequency studies, which spread protein intake from a few (i.e., two to three meals) to several meals (i.e., greater than five meals), the bolus of protein per meal shrinks, which may provide several suboptimal, or possibly non-significant rises in protein synthesis as opposed to a few meals which may maximally stimulate protein synthesis

Remember though, this is about optimization. There will always be outliers, or people who prefer other ways, or those who just don't respond as well to it. The body isn't the same machine for every man and woman.

I can ask the author on Facebook if he has the direct citation for the 8 hour amino acid part. I'm curious myself.
 

despire

Member
Good counterpoints Despire.

A few things.

- When they say after 8 hours amino acids come from muscle, let's both think of this critically.

Maybe it's a case where it pulls from fat AND muscle. My guy reports the muscle. Your guy reports the fat ;). It's like you said, who has their hand where.

Yep, this is exactly what I meant.

- I wouldn't immediately dismiss multiple meals a day.

I'm not dismissing multiple meals. I'm just saying that 8 meals per day is in my opinion unnecessary. Around 4 to 5 is more practical for most people. If I'd ate 8 meals a day, and spread my protein intake evenly, I'd never hit even the lower portion of maximal protein synthesis window.


From the study I posted

I'm aware of this in fact. It would seem that multiple meals would be preferred compared to one, if we are talking strictly about protein synthesis and gaining muscle mass. Layne Norton had some thoughts on this. But if I remember correctly, the amounts often cited (20-30g of protein), have been measured in sedentary/older/skinny people who don't train. It is likely that people with larger amounts of muscle mass and who train can utilize more protein before protein synthesis maxes out. So it will be in the higher end of the scale of protein per meal to maximise the effect. Hence the recommendation of somewhere around 4-6 meals if you want to optimise specifically for muscle gains. Of course it's not really the amount of protein itself that matters, but the amount of leucine. So the amount needed for maximal synthesis depends on your weight but also on the protein source.


Layne Norton said:
I therefore suggest that one consume 4-6 larger protein doses per day instead of 6-8 meals

and wait 4-5 hours between meals rather than 2-3 hours.

Layne Norton said:
Example: 200 lb male athlete/bodybuilder

 5 meals per day (one meal every 4-6 hours)

 Goal: 4g/leucine per meal (0.045g leu/kg BW/meal)


 Meal protein sources:

 2 meals: whey (33g protein at each meal)

 2 meals: chicken (54g protein at each meal)

 1 meal: beef (51g protein)

 Total protein intake: 225g/day

 3-4g leu supplement consumed between meals may optimize MPS response.



Two studies cited in Eat Stop Eat as evidence of fastings anti-catabolic effects:

Forearm and leg amino acid metabolism in the basal state and during combined insulin and amino acid stimulation after ]a 3-day fast: J. Gjedsted,1,2 L. Gormsen,2,3 M. Buhl,1,2 H. Nørrelund,2,3 O. Schmitz,3,4 S. Keiding,5 E. Tønnesen1 and N. Møller2,3
Our study was designed to test how 3 days of fasting
affects protein metabolism during a combined infusion
of insulin and amino acids simulating a meal. We
hypothesized that fasting would induce increased whole
body protein turnover due to increased muscle protein
breakdown
in the leg and arm and that leg and arm
muscles would respond to insulin and amino acid
stimulation with an increase in muscle protein synthesis
compared to the basal post-absorptive state. We report
that 3 days of fasting only induces minor changes in
basal and insulin and amino acid-stimulated protein
metabolism


...

In conclusion, our data show that 3 days of fasting
only affects basal and insulin/amino acid-stimulated
protein metabolism in muscle minutely
.


The Protein-Retaining Effects of Growth Hormone During Fasting Involve Inhibition of Muscle-Protein Breakdown: Helene Nørrelund, K. Sreekumaran Nair, Jens Otto Lunde Jørgensen, Jens Sandahl Christiansen, and Niels Møller
In conclusion, our results provide new evidence that physiological
increments in GH secretion are a crucial adaptive
response to fasting to achieve protein conservation
, as evidenced
by the 50% increase in ureagenesis during GH deprivation.
The observed decrease in muscle protein breakdown
during GH substitution—possibly mediated by the sustainment
of circulating concentrations of free IGF-I—contributes
to this overall anticatabolic impact
.
^This was a 40h fast.


The quotes are some conclusions. I'm not reading the whole article and since I'm not a nutritionist, I can't tell if the study was good or not. I'm a plant pathologist, so it's a different field and hence am not equipped to make any real conclusions on my own. Also the test subjects in both studies here were all young men, not elderly people with possibly wonky reactions like someone said few pages back about the GH increase during fasting. Either way both studies involved quite long fasting times and showed only minute increases in protein breakdown compared to normal. And if some researcher uses the words "minute" and "minor", then it really must be minimal. I have both on pdf if someone wants to take a look. We should be pretty safe doing regular 24hr fasts, with the occasional longer one.
 
So yesterday, one of the female trainers I converse with came up to me and said that "I look smaller and am not as wide as I was a few months ago." I know I've been losing a ton of fat and the muscle is starting to pop more but it still cut me deep. I dropped from 265 ish down to 230 and I feel like I have nothing to show for it. I still have my eyes on the prize and will get to 220 before going on a slow bulk, but the feels are there. At least when I was around 265/270, I felt big and nasty. Just a beast. Like a pro wrestler. Right now, not so much. Shirts aren't as tight, jeans aren't as tight. Makes you wonder if abs are really worth it. I know it will take some time and summer 2k16 is the new goal but fuck. This sucks lol.
 

despire

Member
So yesterday, one of the female trainers I converse with came up to me and said that "I look smaller and am not as wide as I was a few months ago." I know I've been losing a ton of fat and the muscle is starting to pop more but it still cut me deep. I dropped from 265 ish down to 230 and I feel like I have nothing to show for it. I still have my eyes on the prize and will get to 220 before going on a slow bulk, but the feels are there. At least when I was around 265/270, I felt big and nasty. Just a beast. Like a pro wrestler. Right now, not so much. Shirts aren't as tight, jeans aren't as tight. Makes you wonder if abs are really worth it. I know it will take some time and summer 2k16 is the new goal but fuck. This sucks lol.

Dude, fuck her (not literally,
unless you want to
). Don't listen to her. I just checked your latest picture again and you look phenomenal. Huge and you're becoming ripped. You look so much better than before cutting. It's all worth it in the end. I think you're now at that difficult point in your cut, where you are getting leaner and you appear smaller because you're not yet lean enough to start looking bigger. Getting leaner helps, don't quit now. Just be like Cooter, he's getting so lean he's actually starting to look bigger.

Remember that it's just a mental thing. You look better and are bigger than 99,9% of the population.

Read this:
http://www.bryankrahn.com/10-reasons-to-get-lean/
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
So yesterday, one of the female trainers I converse with came up to me and said that "I look smaller and am not as wide as I was a few months ago." I know I've been losing a ton of fat and the muscle is starting to pop more but it still cut me deep. I dropped from 265 ish down to 230 and I feel like I have nothing to show for it. I still have my eyes on the prize and will get to 220 before going on a slow bulk, but the feels are there. At least when I was around 265/270, I felt big and nasty. Just a beast. Like a pro wrestler. Right now, not so much. Shirts aren't as tight, jeans aren't as tight. Makes you wonder if abs are really worth it. I know it will take some time and summer 2k16 is the new goal but fuck. This sucks lol.
That answer is different for everyone. I hated being in the upper teens low twenties bf percentage. Sure I filled up my shirts better and had people accusing of me of being on steroids what seemed like daily but I felt slow and out of shape. Eventually the numbers stop increasing as frequently and the constant eating gets tiring. At the end of my bulk I was disgusted by the fat divots on my sides and basically avoided being shirtless as much as possible. I much rather prefer to be small(er).
 
Just offering my two cents..

Regarding the amino acid issue, I don't know where they pulled the 8 hour time limit but it seems weird. We know that it can take almost as long for a big meal to digest and even after that there are amino acids flowing around for much longer. Proper fasted state doesn't even start until 10-12hr after your last meal AFAIK. Also 8hr would mean that everyone would be in a catabolic state after nights sleep and would have to run to the protein shaker right after waking up, which everyone agrees is a ridiculous thought. Dunno, I have it hard time to believe the human body would be stupid enough to turn to it's most valued and important tissues (regarding survival) as soon as you go a few hours without food. How would we still be here as a species if every time caveman Ogg couldn't find a mammoth for a few days, his body would start to turn on it's own muscle tissues when there's plenty of fat stored just for that reason? Why not use the fat when it's there for just that very purpose? This would just lead to a downward spiral where each time this happened (often probably), Ogg would have harder time killing prey because his muscles would shrink away. Now I'm not saying there's no catabolism at all but rather is it at a rate we can notice or should be worried about? Don't think so. If we are talking experts, Brad Pilon has said that even fasting up to 72hr shouldn't produce any measurable muscle loss, and he only recommends 24hr once or twice a week so there should not be any issues. As for anectdotal evidence, many proponents of IF seem to be pretty muscular and ripped even after doing it extended time, so I don't think this is a real issue. Personally I have a little more muscle mass than I did when I started fasting for 24hr periods instead of 16hr. Would I have more if I hadn't fasted and dieted the traditional way? I don't know but I don't think so. Also aren't we past that eat every two hours advice? It works for some but there's really no reason to eat that often, other that your own personal preferences.

Also regarding catabolizing of muscle tissue and gluconeogenesis, why is it always assumed that the body will immediately turn to protein as a source. When you burn body fat, glycerol (a sugar and the backbone of molecules which make up your fat tissue) is released and can also be used in gluconeogenesis. So taking into account that you have plenty of fat to burn, there should be sugar floating around during fasting in your bloodstream, which can be used instead of protein if/when needed. Or at least that's what I've read. Someone correct if they have better info, I'd like to know as much as I can.

Regarding nutrition, I personally train at 6am. I would not be getting up at 4am to eat some pre-workout meal anyway so it doesn't really change anything in that respect. I am going to be fasted (or near fasted) anyway and I haven't seen any detrimental effects now that I've gotten accustomed to this. Would I be stronger if I would have some meal before training? Probably. But I'm not gonna get up at the middle of the night to eat. That would be ridiculous. If you are training in the afternoon it's a different story of course.

What I find most fascinating right now about dieting Eat Stop Eat way vs traditional dieting is this:


Of course everyone is selling something and are therefore biased. Proponents of IF are making a buck on books and personal training so of course they try to make IF sound as good as they can. Same for the RD book. The author is selling his own method, which is not IF in the slightest, so there's a reason for him to argue that his method is better. Otherwise why would people use it over something else. Everyone believes they are right and everyone else is wrong. Everything else is a fad and should not be taken seriously. But we know that everything works of course and have to remember that. There's no one magic method. Eating every two hours can work, same as for fasting. Everything works, at least for some time.

Also I'm not sure how anyone can call fasting a fad when it's been around much longer than any other diet method. Sure it has seen a new resurgence in the last 10-15 years with IF but it has always been a part of human existence. Either as an involuntary part of daily lives, when no food was available (our entire existence as a species), or as a voluntary therapeutic method for different purposes in every major religion etc. (for at least few millenia). Our bodies are designed to endure fasting. It is good for us. That's when our bodies repair themselves and get rid of damaged cells. We are designed to live a life of fasting and feasting. Times of scarcity and times of plenty. Mammoth and no mammoth. This way of being constantly fed and (over)nourished is a phenomenon that is only possible in a modern human society where food is everywhere and available all the time. It's not normal if you look it in a historical and evolutionary perspective. There's plenty of evidence in that our bodies do better when they are not in a fed state all the time. I'm not saying that everyone needs to fast but I can't take anyone seriously who says that you should eat 8 meals a day. Do what you prefer says I, be it one meal or ten meals. Personally I prefer 3-4 meals when I'm not fasting. Anymore becomes a hassle and I don't see the benefit. You just eat a bunch of small meals and have to carry food everywhere.

This is one of the best overall posts I think I have ever read. Great write-up thanks for taking so much time to put that together.
 
So yesterday, one of the female trainers I converse with came up to me and said that "I look smaller and am not as wide as I was a few months ago." I know I've been losing a ton of fat and the muscle is starting to pop more but it still cut me deep. I dropped from 265 ish down to 230 and I feel like I have nothing to show for it. I still have my eyes on the prize and will get to 220 before going on a slow bulk, but the feels are there. At least when I was around 265/270, I felt big and nasty. Just a beast. Like a pro wrestler. Right now, not so much. Shirts aren't as tight, jeans aren't as tight. Makes you wonder if abs are really worth it. I know it will take some time and summer 2k16 is the new goal but fuck. This sucks lol.

You didn't take that as a compliment?
 

The Chef

Member
Haha thanks :) I just wanted to put my thoughts out here.

Yeah I really appreciated it as well. Nicely done.
I know several people who have been IF for the past few months and it seems to work great for them. One question I have - the goal is to still hit your macros correct? So esencially you just need to still meet your daily goals but on fewer meals (say beginning at 1:00pm and ending at 8:00pm). Is that right?
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
Yeah I really appreciated it as well. Nicely done.
I know several people who have been IF for the past few months and it seems to work great for them. One question I have - the goal is to still hit your macros correct? So esencially you just need to still meet your daily goals but on fewer meals (say beginning at 1:00pm and ending at 8:00pm). Is that right?
Yes sir. Nothing changes but your eating patterns. I do IF because it's easy and allows me to eat until I'm stuffed. If it helps or hurts optimal muscle gain or maintenance is irrelevant to me. I'm not a professional bodybuilder looking to fine tune every tiny detail. My guess is that whatever positive or negative outcome I get from IF is barely measurable.
 
Dude, fuck her (not literally,
unless you want to
). Don't listen to her. I just checked your latest picture again and you look phenomenal. Huge and you're becoming ripped. You look so much better than before cutting. It's all worth it in the end. I think you're now at that difficult point in your cut, where you are getting leaner and you appear smaller because you're not yet lean enough to start looking bigger. Getting leaner helps, don't quit now. Just be like Cooter, he's getting so lean he's actually starting to look bigger.

Remember that it's just a mental thing. You look better and are bigger than 99,9% of the population.

Read this:
http://www.bryankrahn.com/10-reasons-to-get-lean/

Yeah, she didn't mean it in a mean place just how she approached it. Right after a pump from shoulders too! I know it is worth it in the end but it is still a mind fuck the entire trip there lol. Ty for the comments as I do feel and look better now but every now and then, I just get those Will read the link you posted in a bit.

That answer is different for everyone. I hated being in the upper teens low twenties bf percentage. Sure I filled up my shirts better and had people accusing of me of being on steroids what seemed like daily but I felt slow and out of shape. Eventually the numbers stop increasing as frequently and the constant eating gets tiring. At the end of my bulk I was disgusted by the fat divots on my sides and basically avoided being shirtless as much as possible. I much rather prefer to be small(er).

Thanks dood. As I sated before, I'm going to drop these final 10 lbs, coast on 220 for a bit and make 230 an end game for June 2016. It won't all be muscle, but it should help fill me out a bit better. And I agree with you on the constant eating. For me, doing it slow is better. That being said, I did love the fuck out of my dreamers bulk.

You didn't take that as a compliment?

I'm sure she meant it that way but just came off wrong. The part that really got me was that I wasn't as wide as I was before. That I used to be "much bigger".

Right in the feels.
 

despire

Member
Yeah I really appreciated it as well. Nicely done.
I know several people who have been IF for the past few months and it seems to work great for them. One question I have - the goal is to still hit your macros correct? So esencially you just need to still meet your daily goals but on fewer meals (say beginning at 1:00pm and ending at 8:00pm). Is that right?

Depends on the method of IF.

Lean Gains is like that. You set up your calories and macros and then eat all of them during the feeding window, which is 8hrs. You fast for 16hrs, including sleeping. This can make eating at a deficit easier, because you get to eat bigger meals. Many find that skipping breakfast and then eating two or three big meals is more enjoyable than eating many small meals spaced evenly around the day. It also says you should to do carb cycling and you should have the majority of your calories post workout.

The Warrior Diet is similar AFAIK but the eating windows is smaller (4 hours).

Then we have the ILoveBish diet(TM) where he eats all of his daily allowance of calories in one huge meal. Cooter fasts for 18 hours I think.

Eat Stop Eat is a bit different in that you should eat normally (around maintenance) and flexibly (don't stress out about food choices but be responsible) 5-6 days a week. Then 1-2 days a week you take a 24hr break from eating. I fast 3 days a week because I have more fat to lose. For example you stop eating at 9pm and then eat again at 9pm the next day. Or dinner to dinner or lunch to lunch. But with ESE you "eat normally" afterwards, you don't try to gorge all your daily calories at once. Act like the fast never happened. For example I eat my normal supper, which can be cottage cheese, few pieces of rye bread and some berries. Comes around 500kcal or so. So basically you "skip food", don't postpone it. Other methods of IF still depend more or less on the negative caloric balance to burn fat, because you still eat a reasonable amount during the feeding. The fast is there just to improve it or offer other possible benefits. With ESE, you basically use the fast in itself to burn the calories which results in weight loss because you don't have a feeding window. If you skip breakfast, lunch and dinner, that's your deficit for the day. My net deficit during a fast day will probably be somewhere around 1500-2000kcal because my only meal of the day is only around 500kcal. Then the other days of the week I eat normally (and don't lose weight). The weight loss occurs because of the fast and because you skip meals and don't replace them later in the day.

Eat Stop Eat is actually very close to The Fast Diet (or 5/2 diet), which came out few years ago (after a BBC documentary), though ESE came out much earlier. I also think that ESE is the most flexible approach. Anyone can do it. You don't need to count calories or macros. You don't need to carb cycle. You don't need to train fasted. Of course you can but you don't need to. Just pick the days you want and take a break from eating. Your grandmother could do ESE. LeanGains in contrast is much more demanding and not as flexible. It's more or less only for serious bodybuilders. ESE is a much more casual approach (unless you don't want it to be).


Hopefully I made any sense there :D
 

ILoveBish

Member
Yeah I really appreciated it as well. Nicely done.
I know several people who have been IF for the past few months and it seems to work great for them. One question I have - the goal is to still hit your macros correct? So esencially you just need to still meet your daily goals but on fewer meals (say beginning at 1:00pm and ending at 8:00pm). Is that right?

As cooter said, nothing changes eating wise. You still hit all your macros. You just spend more time with no insulin spikes, so your body is more efficient and burning faster then if you keep constantly eating and spiking insulin all the time, which in reality damages the body over time. Keeping fasted makes insulin levels 0 once the spike from eating happens (everything you eat spikes insulin, carbs are the absolute worst, protein also spikes but not as much, fat spikes just a little).
 
- I wouldn't immediately dismiss multiple meals a day.

From the study I posted



Remember though, this is about optimization. There will always be outliers, or people who prefer other ways, or those who just don't respond as well to it. The body isn't the same machine for every man and woman.

I can ask the author on Facebook if he has the direct citation for the 8 hour amino acid part. I'm curious myself.

Can you get that citation? I would like to check it out directly since it doesn't seem to be analyzed in that way when I look through the articles on the matter.

If we're talking about optimization, I don't think there's anyone who will disagree with multiple meals a day (or at least, will prove it physically or with literature lol). However, if we're talking the difference between 4-6 meals a day...this study was actually published rather recently from the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26132746

All of them took over 20g protein at each meal, and no difference was observed between 4 and 6 meals per day.
 

The Chef

Member
Depends on the method of IF.

Lean Gains is like that. You set up your calories and macros and then eat all of them during the feeding window, which is 8hrs. This can make eating at a deficit easier, because you get to eat bigger meals. Many find that skipping breakfast and then eating two or three big meals is more enjoyable than eating many small meals spaced evenly around the day. It also says to do carb cycling and you should have the majority of your calories post workout.

Yes sir. Nothing changes but your eating patterns. I do IF because it's easy and allows me to eat until I'm stuffed. If it helps or hurts optimal muscle gain or maintenance is irrelevant to me. I'm not a professional bodybuilder looking to fine tune every tiny detail. My guess is that whatever positive or negative outcome I get from IF is barely measurable.

As cooter said, nothing changes eating wise. You still hit all your macros. You just spend more time with no insulin spikes, so your body is more efficient and burning faster then if you keep constantly eating and spiking insulin all the time, which in reality damages the body over time. Keeping fasted makes insulin levels 0 once the spike from eating happens (everything you eat spikes insulin, carbs are the absolute worst, protein also spikes but not as much, fat spikes just a little).

You guys rock. Thanks for the great input. ILoveBish that one massive meal lol. I'd love to see some pics of what that must look like.
Hitting 1800c and 185p 110f and 25c per day in an 8 hour window would be a breeze and I do love the idea of eating BIGGER meals like you mentioned Cooter. My breakfasts are 90% of the time 3 whole eggs and 1oz of shredded cheese. Its not even that great, I just eat it for the numbers and to stave off hunger.

Despire, dude seriously thank you for breaking all those different methods down. The Lean Gains sound like my cup of tea. Curious about the carb cycling though. Currently I keep my carbs super low and do a refeed on Sunday. With cycling is it as simple and an +-+- throughout the week? Or is it specific to training days?
 

despire

Member
Despire, dude seriously thank you for breaking all those different methods down. The Lean Gains sound like my cup of tea. Curious about the carb cycling though. Currently I keep my carbs super low and do a refeed on Sunday. With cycling is it as simple and an +-+- throughout the week? Or is it specific to training days?

No worries :) Glad to be of help. I added some stuff and clarifications, not sure if you noticed them.



With LG it's like this (simplified):

Training days:
-Higher calories, more carbs, relatively little fat, high protein.

Rest days:
-Lower calories, less carbs, more fat, high protein.

Or you can just fast 16 hours every day, eat all your macros during the feeding window and not give a rats ass about carb cycling or similar fine tuning. Don't know how effective it would be without the carb cycling though.


I recommend these for additional reading:
http://www.leangains.com/
http://rippedbody.jp/
http://examine.com/leangains-faq/
http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

Both Leangains and Rippedbody websites are excellent resources. Though LG site is the original "IF bible", it can be a bit vague on the specifics sometimes. This is where the Rippedbody comes in handy. It has a ton of really in depth articles on both IF, nutrition in general and training - all for free. The owner or Rippedbody uses Martin Berkhan's (inventor of LG) methods to train his clients so they speak the same subject.
 

Azulsky

Member
Back is finally improving, just needed patience.

What do you guys like for rear delt isolation? I have always had slightly hunched shoulders due to my other pastimes so I have been doing facepulls. Just stay low weight high rep and getting a good squeeze. Feels better than flyes so far.
 

Matugi

Member
ugh, there's a very real likelihood that my surgical wound will have to be reopened. Superficial sutures are having a difficult time holding together. Already was looking at a 3 week recovery time, may now have to add an additional month onto that. Gonna be an absolute small weight when I get back to the gym :\

EDIT: I can likely do stuff that won't require straining my lower back as early as a week after it is reopened, and then I can slowly add sitting/standing stuff to my pain tolerance; I'll talk to my doctor tomorrow. So it's gonna be a lot of accessory work while I try to maintain strenght. But it's gonna be awhile until I can get back to doing the big three.
 

Sky Chief

Member
Hi Fitness GAF

I'm 35, 6'2", 190lbs

About 10-15 years ago I had two elbow surgeries for a sports injury. I completed the rehabilitation program but it was more occupational therapy and over time I developed some body imbalances. Last summer these lead to more elbow and shoulder issues and so I undertook more physical therapy and then started working out with a trainer to correct the imbalances. Since last fall I got a lot stronger and more healthy and had a net weight loss of 35lbs. It's made my life much better and now I want to take the next step.

Currently I work out about 2-3 times a week at my work gym lifting weights and I bike ride or hike at least another 2-3 times a week. My work gym is small and nobody ever uses it but it has a squat rack, a few benches, a couple barbells, and a full set of dumbbells.

I want to get stronger and put on more muscle. I am considering either the recommended program or the Strong Lifts 5x5. What are the Pros and Cons of each? I also lifted weights in high school so i know it is safer to have a spotter but this is unlikely to be possible but I think I have a good understanding of the risks involved and general safety techniques especially for bench press. Is this a big problem?

A few questions. For the recommended beginner program I should start with an empty bar for squats and presses and a lightly loaded bar for dead lift and row and then progress from there just like the 5x5, right? I can only do a couple of pull ups at a time, what should I do if I'm unable to do the 3 sets of 8-15 as prescribed? What is a recommended ab program?

Thanks!
 

The Chef

Member
No worries :) Glad to be of help. I added some stuff and clarifications, not sure if you noticed them.

Yeah that carb cycling sounds interesting. I've been holding the course with my current nutritional routine for little over 2 months now. After 12 weeks though Im going to really assess the results and experiment with IF I think.

Thanks a ton bro. I'll definitely be reading up on this!

Edit:
despire one last thing. That free pdf on RippedBody, not sure if you know or not but is it pretty idiot friendly or do you have to be a nutritionist to understand what he's talkin about?
 

MikeRahl

Member
Quick question for anyone who might know...

Last night I was playing soccer on some field turf (with the rubber fill). Was running full speed and whiffed on a ball in the air and when I came down managed for jam my leg pretty bad.

Pretty sure I pulled my hamstring... it is pretty tender on the back (worst between my butt and my knee) not too worried about that. What is kind of concerning is when I bend over at the hips (sort of like a good morning), when I get to about 45 degrees, I start feeling pain on the outside of my knee.

I was still able to run and everything afterwards... tried to work it out but obviously wasn't quite as effective. I still feel like I have all my strength there (other than it being tender it doesn't feel as though it is going to give out or anything). Is it anything to worry about?
 

BadTaste

Member
I've decided to work on triceps twice a week now... every other muscle group I do once a week. My 14 inch stick arms are way behind everything else.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
That's the one! I need to bring up my rear delts, I'll look it up.


Do it one of several ways. Laying down face down on incline bench working from heavy to very light. Very high rep and only slightly bringing arms back (isolating rear delts) or use a pec deck and do it that way.


I'd do them once very few weeks. Doing them weekly is too much at least it was for me.
 

Cooper

Member
So yesterday, one of the female trainers I converse with came up to me and said that "I look smaller and am not as wide as I was a few months ago." I know I've been losing a ton of fat and the muscle is starting to pop more but it still cut me deep.

I'd bet 99% of women would give someone who told them they looked way smaller than before a kiss on the spot. :p I'm sure she meant it as a high compliment.

And just an FYI, it's not a good idea to tell a woman she's looking big or beefy. .
 
I'd bet 99% of women would give someone who told them they looked way smaller than before a kiss on the spot. :p I'm sure she meant it as a high compliment.

And just an FYI, it's not a good idea to tell a woman she's looking big or beefy. .

"Have you put on weight?"

Slap.
 

freshair

Member
Have you guys hopped on the Halo Top ice cream trend yet? Each pint is only 240-280 calories and 20g of protein

all_flavors-4104.jpg
 

ILoveBish

Member
Another great day at the gym. Finished 5s week strong on bench, 5x155, 5x180 and 5x200. Also did a AMRAP FSL set of 10x155. Also went up in weight in all my accessories and hit every rep clean. Really feeling terrific right now. Passed the 25 hour mark for the 72 hour fast already, easy as heck. Feel no hunger at all.
 
Another great day at the gym. Finished 5s week strong on bench, 5x155, 5x180 and 5x200. Also did a AMRAP FSL set of 10x155. Also went up in weight in all my accessories and hit every rep clean. Really feeling terrific right now. Passed the 25 hour mark for the 72 hour fast already, easy as heck. Feel no hunger at all.

You sticking with water, diet soda, and black coffee?
 

BlueTsunami

there is joy in sucking dick
Have you guys hopped on the Halo Top ice cream trend yet? Each pint is only 240-280 calories and 20g of protein

all_flavors-4104.jpg

Hnnnggg

The nutrition seems to hover around 2g for fat and 12g for carbs per serving (4 servings per pint). Good choice for low fat/high carb eaters and for carb refeed nights
 

Bowser

Member
Hnnnggg

The nutrition seems to hover around 2g for fat and 12g for carbs per serving (4 servings per pint). Good choice for low fat/high carb eaters and for carb refeed nights

Technically it's 4g net carbs since sugar alcohols (erythritol, in this case) can be netted out (like Quest bars)
 
Keep busy. Don't think about it. The more fasting you do, the more your hunger dies. It gets easier and easier.

Once I reach the 36 hour mark, if I'm feeling good do you think I should extend it to 48?

Or since it's my first fast passing 24hrs should I stick with the 36hrs and try 48hrs down the line?
 
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