Broder Salsa
Banned
Das before people and mourinho realized how shit you really were
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Football Thread 13/14 |OT19| It's a good sign when its boring
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Das before people and mourinho realized how shit you really were
CecilRousso
Member
This. I would gladly see two of this years top4 teams drop out. I want the clubs to learn to handle missing out on CL better then how they do today. The top 7-8 will be to good for all of them to be able to demand CL everywhere year.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Still can't believe you played 6 midfielders against us :lol
We were there for the taking bb!
Mourinho took the "We cant win the title" talk so seriously he actively stopped himself from winning the title.
Vivalaraza
Member
I can just about envisage us paying £30m for Shaw, but £35m for Carvahlo...no way.
I think we will get him for £25m in the end, something like that. Even that is pretty risky. There are other players out there who can do that reinforcing job in the midfield who don't cost so much. Is Carvahlo really THAT good...dunno, and how can you really. It's Portugal. Shit league.
I think we will get him for £25m in the end, something like that. Even that is pretty risky. There are other players out there who can do that reinforcing job in the midfield who don't cost so much. Is Carvahlo really THAT good...dunno, and how can you really. It's Portugal. Shit league.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Any of your midfielders.
That is a pretty big if tbf.
we have khedira we don't need him
if van gaal comes, i'm pretty sure rvp will stay. he loves him.
rooney's not a very good central forward, anyway.
FlutterPuffs
Member
He's still right. We all heard how Moyes likes to go all hands on. See how well that has worked.
Top 4 is almost certainly locked for next season, barring absurd transfer windows.
The issue is age. United fell out of the top 4 because they had a decrepit team which suddenly saw a massive decline in key areas. Neither Arsenal nor Liverpool have problems in this area.
Then, when you consider Liverpool could easily have had 4 players in the YPOTY, and Arsenal lag not far behind, both teams could remain fairly static and yet still see little to no downturn.
And they won't remain static. United are left with a big challenge - they both have continuing aging in certain areas whilst the top 4 teams improve. Whilst Moyes may have been to blame for some of the players failings, the problem with elderly players - i.e. RVP and Carrick - is you can't really undo the damage that has been done.
So it's not just the issue that United have to recover, 10-15 points on Arsenal or Liverpool. It's really more like 20 points, since United will pretty much be down 3-5 whilst Arsenal and Liverpool will be up that amount, simply through natural aging. Everton and Spurs face a similar challenge, of course, without the negative points but also lacking the immense transfer resources that could make up such a difference.
The issue is age. United fell out of the top 4 because they had a decrepit team which suddenly saw a massive decline in key areas. Neither Arsenal nor Liverpool have problems in this area.
Then, when you consider Liverpool could easily have had 4 players in the YPOTY, and Arsenal lag not far behind, both teams could remain fairly static and yet still see little to no downturn.
And they won't remain static. United are left with a big challenge - they both have continuing aging in certain areas whilst the top 4 teams improve. Whilst Moyes may have been to blame for some of the players failings, the problem with elderly players - i.e. RVP and Carrick - is you can't really undo the damage that has been done.
So it's not just the issue that United have to recover, 10-15 points on Arsenal or Liverpool. It's really more like 20 points, since United will pretty much be down 3-5 whilst Arsenal and Liverpool will be up that amount, simply through natural aging. Everton and Spurs face a similar challenge, of course, without the negative points but also lacking the immense transfer resources that could make up such a difference.
I didn't say Moyes' approach was right.
I'm just saying comparing it to Ferguson's is stupid.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Good points. No matter what, two new CMs are essential though.
That's pretty common for managers coming into the job because the last guy was fired for underperforming. Moyes went into a smoothly-run, successful operation and ripped up a possession-focused coaching apparatus in favour of his fitness-oriented approach, delivered by people who wouldn't challenge his ideas. If he wanted to succeed at United, he simply had to adapt. There's a time and place to be stubborn. Instead, he made it awfully difficult for himself from day one.
Not saying he should have kept them all or not brought any of his own people in, but a complete overhaul was mindless stuff.
thehypocrite
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXXLabDXUjg hala madrid!!!
Vivalaraza
Member
Whilst I agree that we have alot of work to do and that Arsenal/Liverpool are set up well to grow stronger...this type of points analysis is basically plucked out of nowhere :lol
You think it'll take 85 points to get into the top 4 next year?
Don't Laugh
Banned
The only thing that doesn't take into account is a big player (Aguero, Suarez, Ozil, Hazard) leaving. You have to assume that the clubs in the top 4 are most likely going to invest wisely with the money they get should that happen though.
Nicktendo86
Member
No, in the context of being hands on or trusting others to do their job, it isn't. The point Rene was making was that Fergie allowed people to do their job and would sit back and oversee, Moyes was hands on and couldn't cope as the club is so big. Seems a fair assessment to me.
The only one of those that looks remotely like it has a chance of happening is Aguero.
And even then, probably not.
2010-2011 was the last time we looked decent.
Doing things the right way. The United way.
No, almost certainly the ~70 point line will remain the benchmark for top 4 next season. I suppose I did word it poorly. I mean, suppose United end up around 63 points this season. That would mean they need 7 extra points to be on a top 4 average. However, due to the decline of playing staff being significantly greater than accumulation, we can suppose that the squad will be several points weaker off automatically assuming there were no changes in transfers.
Meanwhile, for Arsenal, they will probably finish somewhere around 75 points. Due to a number of young prospects in their first team, plus a general lack of aging players, they would probably be several points better off next season assuming nothing changed.
Now, obviously we now things will change. However, what the analysis means is that Arsenal (and Liverpool) have a buffer against negative changes. United, meanwhile, must overcome a hurdle first to make gains. What this means is, for transfer windows United must not only have an above average success in their transfers, but they must also hope one of the top four clubs has a below average transfer window to be able to overhaul them. So a top 4 team needs to make several bad transfers whilst United have several good ones, odds of which are fairly long.
Frustrated_me
Member
You knoaw nofhing BarShnaw..
Hadn't considered that. Astute observation.
Vivalaraza
Member
True.
But that doesn't account for the current points total probably being below the quality of our squad. Now I guess that's up for debate but I reckon if we had the manager that any of the other top 4 clubs had...we would have a few more points.
Of course this depends on us getting a good manager in, but that should in itself, in theory...also see us do better.
There is no doubt though - without investment we will not climb the table.
We might be taking him. We like your rejects.
Looking at some statistical models, a fair few had United's expected squad strength at 3rd, at the beginning of the season. So you do have a point there.
However, next season the expected strengths will shift. every model worth looking at significantly underestimated the Liverpool squad. Even accounting for regression to the mean, that would be a hefty barrier to overcome.
Then taking into account the changes in squad strength over time which I talked about, United would very likely slip down to 5th, behind Arsenal.
Don't Laugh
Banned
that's an amazing salary for a teenage footballer
Podolski is a pure beast in front of goal.
Kun is too good. I hope he can stay healthy next year.
However, when outside the box for the most part, he's a bit shit.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
£27m for PL-proven Fellaini versus £34m for the Ukraine league's Fernandinho puts paid to this argument IMO. I remember hearing this stuff about Matic. I just watch the highlights, but yes, Carvalho is good enough that we'll regret seeing him play for another big team. And, in similar fashion, underrated going forward too.
I do see the argument that we could be going for a cheaper target with just as much promise, though. But I could say the same thing about Shaw. I'm just happy we're finally looking to invest in targets driven by what the team actually needs, instead of panic buys driven by extreme incompetence or desperation.
There's been so much great midfield talent United has passed over these last several years waiting for the sure thing that never comes (i.e. Fabregas, now Kroos). (And let's not even get into Pogba!) Maybe it's understandable given how Veron, Hargreaves, Anderson and (ugh) Fellaini turned out, but it's ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't be discriminating, but we needn't be precious about it either.
okay, was this really necessary?
I find the "Rats too crafty for our traps" story more relevant to Giggs.
Portugeezer
Member
So is Ronaldo fit enough to play today?
Baconsaurus Rex
Member
Two F16s were scrambled today because Russian fighters were threatening to enter Dutch airspace. They buggered off eventually. The end is high.
Are they only beautiful?@Bacon, L1NETT, KidAlove, Carbo and Yurt
the lack of Padoin Kenobi is disturbing, but I'll make an exception for Khal Drogo.
Who do you have? Hart, Milner, Lescott, Barry, Richards, Sinclair.
And four of them are leaving
oh dear
Holland's residents live on houses on stilts, should the Russians invade you only need to knock em over and float to safety in the channel.
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