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Football Thread 2011/2012 | OT11 | Roll on the Euros and transfer muppetry

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P

pappe

Member
Vivalaraza said:
I think I'm right in saying they have to sell big every summer to break even. Need to take in over £30m net per summer to afford all their costs etc.

It's truly amazing what they do, buy players for cheap and they're good enough to win them titles and see them compete in the CL and they then sell them at a very high price and use a small portion of the fee to find new players who just as well, and then sell them on two.

Just shows that Fergie is talking absolute shit when he says there's no value in the market.

Here's a chart of all the player's they've sold over the last few years, add Falcao and Hulk to that now.

Porto%2BTransfers%2Bv2.jpg
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Anderson for 32mil??? Fuck me.
 
FootballFan

FootballFan

Member
Yurt said:
It's like they're punishing Barcelona for not winning every single title.
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They are man, they are. :(

odd_morsel said:
If Affelay is on the market I imagine there are a good few teams who'd take a punt at that kind of price. I know almost nothing about him, but Barça bought him and trained him for a year (or two, is it now?) so he's already got a leg up on other inexpensive young wingers.
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Keep your hands off Afellay. He is awesome, and I believe if he finally manages to stay injury free, he will be an important and useful squad member for us.

Meier said:
Aly Michalka's boob implants were the best thing that ever happened to her. And to many people.
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Yes indeed. I remember her from Phil of the future on disney(I think).

Clegg said:
Chelsea agree £38m deal for Hulk
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What the.. Chelsea on Fifa 13 will be beasts
and in real life by the looks of it

How much more will Chelsea be spending or are they done? (Doubt it)
 
J

jtb

Banned
I think part of the reason a selling transfer strategy like that works for clubs like Porto is because players go there knowing that it's a step, they'll get playing time, not as much pressure; where if someone goes straight to a Manchester United or, especially, a Real Madrid/Chelsea, they will get immediate pressure if they don't perform in a big way and can't develop. They develop players just as much as they find them. And since the competition is weaker (Portuguese League is obviously weaker than the big four/five, even if not by a whole lot; Europa League is not the champions league), they can still win and appease their supporters. Just puts into perspective just how impressive that Champions League win in 2004 was for Mourinho, imo.
 
S

Steverulez

Member
Clegg said:
Porto must have one of the best scouting systems in the world. They bought Falcao for £3m ffs.

They also have James Rodriguez who will probably be sold for huge money too. You have to wonder why United is such a massive club yet they can't find these talents like other clubs can.

Edit: Anderson really sticks out there. But did we really buy him for 30m?

I thought the figure was closer to 20m.
Click to expand...

The chart is in Euros so probably is around £20m~
 
E

elsk

Banned
Clegg said:
Porto must have one of the best scouting systems in the world. They bought Falcao for £3m ffs.

They also have James Rodriguez who will probably be sold for huge money too. You have to wonder why United is such a massive club yet they can't find these talents like other clubs can.
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You only have to watch the latin american leagues, really. Falcao played in River, is not like he was unknown player.

Top clubs are very lazy, tho. They let teams like Porto and others do the scouting in Latin America, sign the players for cheap, develop them and then buy them for big money. Also, young players are very likely to flop is they move from their local league to a big side like Man U, Bayern, etc.
 
H

Hixx

Member
Oh my, rumours spreading that Scott Parker has picked up an injury.

Our midfield might just be so shit that it clicks and Roy becomes a genius by accident.
 
J

jtb

Banned
also, holy FUCK. samuel eto'o makes 423K a week (in Euros tho) AFTER TAX? THat's basically the only thing i learned from that Hulk --> Chelsea article. For some reason I thought it was like... 250 or 300, and before tax too.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Clegg said:
Porto must have one of the best scouting systems in the world. They bought Falcao for £3m ffs.

They also have James Rodriguez who will probably be sold for huge money too. You have to wonder why United is such a massive club yet they can't find these talents like other clubs can.

Edit: Anderson really sticks out there. But did we really buy him for 30m?

I thought the figure was closer to 20m.
Click to expand...
Anderson was 32m Euro which at the time was about £21m.

James Rodriguez will go for £20m+. Mendes is already trying to flog him to United and City both. They've also snapped up Iturbe who will probably be sold for a high fee if he develops as expected. Got Defour too who I wouldn't be surprised goes for big money before long, ditto Fernando Reges (good one for United he is actually) and Alvaro Pereira could probably make them alot of money too.

Tbf, none of the "major" club gets these players. Their scouting network is definitely great but it's also a nice mid-way point for these players coming over. Porto tend to buy them very early, before the players are good enough for the first teams in the better teams in the big leagues and don't have any work permit restrictions as far as I know. The selling club know Porto don't have a shitload of money so they get them at a reasonable price, allow them to bed into European football and give them playing time. Once they get recognised, they move them on. Clubs like United can't really afford to invest in these players at their very early age. Sure, we could do better, and Porto deserve massive credit, but it's also a case of circumstance.

Edit - Haha the guys above me pretty much just said the exact same thing whilst I was typing this up.
 
J

jtb

Banned
dc89 said:
Back when there was value in the market. I remember those days well.
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Back in the day. Santa Cruz, Jo, and Robinho really lighting up the league, arne't they ;)

In all seiorusness though, last time there were big bargains to be had was the REal Madrid firesale a couple years back. Robben, Sneijder, VDV, Raul (though those two came a year later)... these are damn good players!

Also, didn't the Falcao deal (and i assume many others) have lots of 3rd party ownership stuff entangled in it? I'd imagine those image corps want to let their players develop, get playing time, build up some reputation for a smaller (but still visible) team before going for a big club.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
dc, I'm not sure if your Tweet about the Sheikh getting his cheque-book out is serious, lol?

Chelsea and City both are not interested in passing FFP, been said many a time before. They will do what they can but they if they have to spend money they will do it. Going to be a big legal wrangle, Red Issue who have alot of insiders at both Manchester clubs wrote about it in their last magazine. City have already drawn up legal plans to slow UEFA down in the courts according to people they've spoken to.
 
P

PaulLFC

Member
So from the Hulk transfer I think it's safe to say FFP means absolutely nothing, because I can't see how on earth Chelsea could meet the guidelines now if UEFA would actually do anything - which they won't.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
PaulLFC said:
So from the Hulk transfer I think it's safe to say FFP means absolutely nothing, because I can't see how on earth Chelsea could meet the guidelines now if UEFA would actually do anything - which they won't.
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At first it'll be a slap on the wrist, "a warning". Then the clubs may have a couple of quiet summers, reducing losses which under the guidelines is passable as it shows progress. When it gets to a point where there is action limiting the clubs, the clubs will head to the courts where it's just a case of who has the better lawyers and appeals.

FFP is a nice idea but it's being implemented in the wrong way. It's biggest problem is the fact it basically limits any club from rising up the ranks because you need massive spending to do so. That's wrong IMO.

What football needs to control costs is a wage budget. Either a salary cap or a wage/turnover ratio. Wages are increasingly the real cost in football, not transfer fees. Lower and regulated wages will lead to a more level playing field. I can see a time where clubs just wait on players to see out their contracts and promise them the transfer fee spread out in wages, players running down contracts or only signing short term deals.
 
S

Soi-Fong

Member
PaulLFC said:
So from the Hulk transfer I think it's safe to say FFP means absolutely nothing, because I can't see how on earth Chelsea could meet the guidelines now if UEFA would actually do anything - which they won't.
Click to expand...

Chelsea with this Hulk signing just did a big "FUCK YOU" you to FFP and UEFA. And, with rumors about Modric also going to Chelsea, this summer will be huge for Chelsea. I thought City spends crazy money, but at least they have shady deals in place to counteract that. Chelsea it seems doesn't give a shit.

Now we'll see if UEFA will have the balls to be strict about FFP.
 
C

Clegg

Member
Daniel Sturridge must be pretty fucked off with this situation.

Last week he only had Torres to contend with at Chelsea. Even then he could always have played on the flank with Torres up front.

Now he has to deal Hazard and Hulk taking up positions at Chelsea.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Vivalaraza said:
Anderson was 32m Euro which at the time was about £21m.

James Rodriguez will go for £20m+. Mendes is already trying to flog him to United and City both. They've also snapped up Iturbe who will probably be sold for a high fee if he develops as expected. Got Defour too who I wouldn't be surprised goes for big money before long, ditto Fernando Reges (good one for United he is actually) and Alvaro Pereira could probably make them alot of money too.

Tbf, none of the "major" club gets these players. Their scouting network is definitely great but it's also a nice mid-way point for these players coming over. Porto tend to buy them very early, before the players are good enough for the first teams in the better teams in the big leagues and don't have any work permit restrictions as far as I know. The selling club know Porto don't have a shitload of money so they get them at a reasonable price, allow them to bed into European football and give them playing time. Once they get recognised, they move them on. Clubs like United can't really afford to invest in these players at their very early age. Sure, we could do better, and Porto deserve massive credit, but it's also a case of circumstance.

Edit - Haha the guys above me pretty much just said the exact same thing whilst I was typing this up.
Click to expand...

^Viva/United-GAF: do you think the Jorge Mendes connection with United is bc of Ronaldo/chance to land tons of talented wingers (and Anderson :/ ) from the Portuguese league, or do you think that it's also the United heirarchy making sure that they land Mourinho when Ferguson retires (since it's seemed for some time that Mou is eagerly waiting in the wings for the Old Trafford job)? What exactly is the extent of the Mendes-United connection?
 
S

Soi-Fong

Member
Clegg said:
Daniel Sturridge must be pretty fucked off with this situation.

Last week he only had Torres to contend with at Chelsea. Even then he could always have played on the flank with Torres up front.

Now he has Hazard and Hulk to contend with.
Click to expand...

It seems like Roman is serious about defending the Champion's League title. Now let's see if they can get a good manager. Barca is bound to improve as well as Real Madrid and also Manchester United as well as City. All these teams have wonderful managers who I'm sure will bring the fight to Chelsea and make sure nothing like this most recent Champion's League Final will happen again.
 
E

elsk

Banned
PaulLFC said:
So from the Hulk transfer I think it's safe to say FFP means absolutely nothing, because I can't see how on earth Chelsea could meet the guidelines now if UEFA would actually do anything - which they won't.
Click to expand...

The banning teams from the Champions League starts in 2016 or 2018, IIRC. Plenty of time to do stupid buys from both dumb sides.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
the walrus said:
^Viva/United-GAF: do you think the Jorge Mendes connection with United is bc of Ronaldo/chance to land tons of talented wingers (and Anderson :/ ) from the Portuguese league, or do you think that it's also the United heirarchy making sure that they land Mourinho when Ferguson retires (since it's seemed for some time that Mou is eagerly waiting in the wings for the Old Trafford job)? What exactly is the extent of the Mendes-United connection?
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I think it's just because he has alot of clients in that region and you get alot of talented players coming from there. Don't think it's solely dependent on one single person, Ronaldo or Jose, just suits the club to be friendly with him.

A few years ago it was the same with Pini Zahavi who had some sought after clients and the club was friendly with him. Now it's Mendes. We're very close with him, he helps us sign players and he has many of our players on his books so keeping him happy is in our interest (see Bebe, nice payday for him). What's worrying is the rumours (and they're just rumours for now) that we are encouraging our players to sign with him, or requesting/demanding his presence in transfers. Do not want him to gain too much influence over the club, that's never a good thing.
 
S

Soi-Fong

Member
Baconsaurus said:
Chelsea buying the Championship confirmed.
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lol Don't say that, you'll have the Chelsea fans come in here and say United did the same way back when even though it's not the same situation since United actually earned all those funds from winning championships and such.
 
Y

Yen

Member
elsk said:
You only have to watch the latin american leagues, really. Falcao played in River, is not like he was unknown player.

Top clubs are very lazy, tho. They let teams like Porto and others do the scouting in Latin America, sign the players for cheap, develop them and then buy them for big money. Also, young players are very likely to flop is they move from their local league to a big side like Man U, Bayern, etc.
Click to expand...

Players from South America only get visa/work permits for England if they are half-European or if they've played 75% of their nation's games in the past three years. No one, when moving to Porto, would fulfill that criteria.
Also, English sides can't sign South Americans under 18 y.o.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
I don't begrudge Chelsea. They've got the money so why not spend it. Same with City.

The fault lies with the authorities who let this type of thing happen. If you can get away with it, why wouldn't you. It's not about being morally upstanding for these clubs, it's about winning.

FIFA should be taking the financial problems in football alot more seriously than they are, it won't sustain this type of spending and one day the bubble will burst.
 
S

Soi-Fong

Member
Vivalaraza said:
I don't begrudge Chelsea. They've got the money so why not spend it. Same with City.

The fault lies with the authorities who let this type of thing happen. If you can get away with it, why wouldn't you. It's not about being morally upstanding for these clubs, it's about winning.

FIFA should be taking the financial problems in football alot more seriously than they are, it won't sustain this type of spending and one day the bubble will burst.
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See that's where you're wrong Viva. It's exactly as you said. This type of spending is not viable in the long-term and will come to bite every team's ass in the Premier League. They're spending more than the club is taking in. Accumulating that much debt will only lead to more problems.

As Ferguson even said, the transfer market is crazy now because of this type of spending and it will only get worst.

This type of spending is even worse than what is possible on FM.

Edit: Also, look at what the eff is happening with Italy. Another freaking scandal after Calciopoli! Seriously?! As much as governing bodies have a responsibility to maintain order, clubs should also have to take responsibilities not to be irresponsible and start doing actions that can hurt everybody.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Chelsea/City have to buy these players from somewhere and that money is just being transferred from one place to another. most clubs in the premier league are financially stable, so if City buys another handful of Arsenal players this summer, it's not like that fee dissapears, we receive that fee.

The problem with clubs like United and Arsenal is that the money is dissapearing; I'd be surprised if all the Ronaldo money has even been spent, I know all the Adebayor money is lying around somewhere (and that's not even accounting for the Nasri/Cesc money). Plus, nothing is as great as watching 30-50 million vanity signings fail; as they almost always do.

I'm more worried about leagues like Spain with hugely unequal TV deals - the TV + attendance money can't even pay wages, wages which are far lower than that in the premier league. That creates a massive debt bubble, not necessarily big transfer fees for players.
 
C

Clegg

Member
We may finally see the return of the real Torres.

He'll have Mata, Hazard and Hulk all providing him with opportunities.

There is no way he won't be able to score with all that quality behind him.
 
S

Soi-Fong

Member
the walrus said:
Chelsea/City have to buy these players from somewhere and that money is just being transferred from one place to another. most clubs in the premier league are financially stable, so if City buys another handful of Arsenal players this summer, it's not like that fee dissapears, we receive that fee.

The problem with clubs like United and Arsenal is that the money is dissapearing; I'd be surprised if all the Ronaldo money has even been spent, I know all the Adebayor money is lying around somewhere (and that's not even accounting for the Nasri/Cesc money). Plus, nothing is as great as watching 30-50 million vanity signings fail; as they almost always do.

I'm more worried about leagues like Spain with hugely unequal TV deals - the TV + attendance money can't even pay wages, wages which are far lower than that in the premier league. That creates a massive debt bubble, not necessarily big transfer fees for players.
Click to expand...

Walrus, if you didn't know the fee that United were given for Ronaldo was spent to pay off the debt that the Glazers put on United. All 80 million.
 
Y

Yen

Member
the walrus said:
Chelsea/City have to buy these players from somewhere and that money is just being transferred from one place to another. most clubs in the premier league are financially stable, so if City buys another handful of Arsenal players this summer, it's not like that fee dissapears, we receive that fee.

The problem with clubs like United and Arsenal is that the money is dissapearing; I'd be surprised if all the Ronaldo money has even been spent, I know all the Adebayor money is lying around somewhere (and that's not even accounting for the Nasri/Cesc money). Plus, nothing is as great as watching 30-50 million vanity signings fail; as they almost always do.

I'm more worried about leagues like Spain with hugely unequal TV deals - the TV + attendance money can't even pay wages, wages which are far lower than that in the premier league. That creates a massive debt bubble, not necessarily big transfer fees for players.
Click to expand...

Edit: got my figures all wrong. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-league-accounts-profit-debt
 
S

Soi-Fong

Member
On the offhand, does anybody know here does the current financial crisis even affect football clubs at all. Like Spain is in huge debt, but does that affect La Liga?
 
P

PaulLFC

Member
elsk said:
The banning teams from the Champions League starts in 2016 or 2018, IIRC. Plenty of time to do stupid buys from both dumb sides.
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I thought that accounts were retrospectively looked at though? Don't they have to (or at least are supposed to) fall within a certain boundary of profits this next season, they can overspend by a certain amount - and then the amount decreases each successive season until they eventually have to break even? I may be wrong though.
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
Ferguson'a comments in the transfer market is just bullshit he tells the press to keep people off his back about the fact that United has failed the last 3 attempts at making big marquee signings - Sneijder, Modrić, Hazard. 4 with Nasri. He'd buy them if he could

United also have responsibility for the large amounts being floated around. Don't kid yourself there.

That said, United's higher income make it sustainable for them to pay a higher fee and wages. City and Chelsea's expenditures aren't as bad as Barça and Real's, as those teams can't afford to make purchases with the amount of debt they have, but do anyway. rather, City and Chelsea are just using cash from an outside source. They're injecting it into the football economy so it's quite different from clubs that take on debt.

The problem is the wage inflation.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Yenrot said:
I'm fairly sure the debt of all clubs in the PL is around £2billion, and yearly wages aren't far off.
Click to expand...

I should clarify; I know there's tons of clubs with huge amounts of debt - but debt isn't necessarily a bad thing. Basically what I meant was that almost all PL clubs have turnover that usually covers player wages, due to high attendances and strong TV revenue, and aren't in danger of entering administration. Those that aren't are clubs like QPR, Chelsea, and especially City, where there is obscene amounts of investment - and of those, only QPR looks likely to have their owner bail on them anytime soon.

edit: oops, wrote this before seeing your edit. Regardless, majority of PL losses are accounted for by owners who invested heavily; the rest are... pretty stable, should they avoid relegation.
 
E

elsk

Banned
PaulLFC said:
I thought that accounts were retrospectively looked at though? Don't they have to (or at least are supposed to) fall within a certain boundary of profits this next season, they can overspend by a certain amount - and then the amount decreases each successive season until they eventually have to break even? I may be wrong though.
Click to expand...

Nope, the commission in charge of that will be able to LOOK at the monetary situation of clubs next season I think... But they can't do anything else until like 2016 season.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Soi-Fong said:
On the offhand, does anybody know here does the current financial crisis even affect football clubs at all. Like Spain is in huge debt, but does that affect La Liga?
Click to expand...
Yes, can't remember the exact figures now but Spanish clubs owed the government a lot of money, like ALOT. But the gov. needed some cash flow desperately so they agreed a deal where the clubs only had to pay back something like 10% of the debt. Basically, the crisis actually helped the clubs :lol

PaulLFC said:
I thought that accounts were retrospectively looked at though? Don't they have to (or at least are supposed to) fall within a certain boundary of profits this next season, they can overspend by a certain amount - and then the amount decreases each successive season until they eventually have to break even? I may be wrong though.
Click to expand...
The monitoring period begins now (I think) and last for 2 years in which time clubs are allowed to make losses of 45m overall. After that FFP comes into full effect and no losses are deemed acceptable. From them on UEFA can sanction clubs but expulsion can only be sanctioned after 2/3 years I think because clubs will be given warnings etc.

Think that's right.
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
Yeah, it's fine having debt, as football, and the PL especially, is still expanding commercially at a good rate.

The problem is when the debt is large enough that you can't expand your team commercially, as you're throwing all your money in the toilet through interest payments. This is where Liverpool was 3 years ago.
 
C

Clegg

Member
Eggman has been juniored.

He tried so hard to get his tag but all he ever had to do was let his natural personality shine through.

Like Wilbury and his paedophilia.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Clegg said:
Eggman has been juniored.

He tried so hard to get his tag but all he ever had to do was let his natural personality shine through.

Like Wilbury and his paedophilia.
Click to expand...
Why are people so desperate to get tagged anyway. It's no fun if you go out begging for it.
 
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