Forbes: The Problem With BioWare's Mass Effect 3 Day-One DLC

I've had real cancer two times, and my mother died of cancer in 2010, but I still think it's ok to use the language in that way sometimes. No offense though.

Anyway, I think day one DLC is fine, even charging a billion dollars for it, as long as what you paid for in the first place gave you value. Of course, the criteria is that the DLC is also giving a certain value, or at least the value has to be completely transparent.

I empathise and I understand, but some people in the thread are more concerned about the word cancer than the text I have surrounded by it, which Charlequin highlighted points to the real meat and potatoes on the matter.

To even go further. Cancer is an actual word with meanings not derived to the medical ailment.

Cancer - Noun - "any evil condition or thing that spreads destructively; blight"

Your mistake is posting inane bullshit responses in every thread you go into. It is like you have no goal in any thread other than to be a contrarian asshole and go out of your way to post in support of shit that is bad for gaming; and stupid in general. You might as well be Vox-pops fucking twin brother.

So I take it, its HPs thing. Its cool, we can all coexist.
 
what I don't get about this graph is why they are supposed to work on DAY 1 DLC? Why don't they let them work on an expansion pack if they want them to stay employed?

oh I get, gamer's attention is fickle according to EEDAR's research so they will forget about the game in a couple of months. Sadly, this seems to be true.
 
what I don't get about this graph is why they are supposed to work on DAY 1 DLC? Why don't they let them work on an expansion pack if they want them to stay employed?

oh I get, gamer's attention is fickle according to EEDAR's research so they will forget about the game in a couple of months. Sadly, this seems to be true.

day 1 dlc allow game sale prices to be 70, 80 or more dollars.
 
what I don't get about this graph is why they are supposed to work on DAY 1 DLC? Why don't they let them work on an expansion pack if they want them to stay employed?

oh I get, gamer's attention is fickle according to EEDAR's research so they will forget about the game in a couple of months. Sadly, this seems to be true.
Actually, I wonder if something that's a big enough deal WOULD work. Releasing the equivalent of
Javik (wait, does JUST the name need to be spoiled?)
3 months later is, well, only bigger fans will still care. Releasing effectively a whole new game, or at least half a game though... I'd be interested in seeing numbers for GTA's DLC and Dragon Age: Awakening. Maybe the fact they didn't repeat the latter for DA2 says something, but then again the course for that game seemed dubious and somewhat misguided anyway, and they may've just had the mentality of "Well, DA:O was a PC centric game, so it gets an expansion, but DA2 is a console game, so it only gets DLC."
 
i REALLY hope the people at Bioware hear you, and understand that this sentiment is not rare. because i'm kinda feeling the same... i haven't bought ME3 yet, but i will. and will probably download all the DLC too (i'm a sucker). but i will feel like a chump, and like i'm being treated shitty as a customer...

does it matter to them, if they get the money anyway? i hope it does.
Sure, they'll feel teeeeeerrible about you feeling bad.
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I just stop listening at the word cancer.

I mean, do you even know what you're fucking saying? Do you know anyone with cancer?

That's a pretty good way to avoid arguing back, actually. Even if it shows it's you who don't even know what you're fucking saying.
 
yeah, I get that it might be a sure bet comparing to an old-fashioned expansion pack.

unfortunately it probably is a lot safer. people are buying the day 1 stuff before they know if they even like the game. an expansion pack also has to be a lot meatier.

I understand it as a business choice for 10 dollar content day 1 but it hits my bullshit trigger because the product is incomplete without it.

Has anyone in the media just straight up thrown out phrases like contempt for your customers in response to this?
 
day1 dlc. Fuck. If it's good I'll buy it.

Lying to your fans about it not being on the disk... not soo awesome...

Has it been confirmed that all the dlc was on the disk, and not just Javik? If it's just Javik, I can see his stuff being in there to keep everything else working (don't want certain flags to go crazy in a game with billions of flags to account for).
 
It's a fan tax. BioWare should have distributed it like they did Zaeed and his missions, but instead they decided to be tremendous jerks about the whole thing. One of the many reasons I will not own ME3 until I can get it for <$20 on Amazon.
 
In my opinion I think people should be way more mad about how any triple AAA game title has exclusive "pre-order" bonuses... this "pre-order now and get x weapon" has been trending for several years now.
 
Also before anyone screams hey Racketeering involved murder. Let me atleast select the relevant information that does provide credence that EA and Bioware unknowingly or knowingly participated in this act. The fact there is no "digital" term is what protects them.

Racketeering activity under federal law includes a number of criminal offenses, including: Bribery; sports bribery; counterfeiting; felony theft from interstate shipment; Embezzlement from Pension and Welfare funds; extortionate credit transactions; Fraud relating to identification documents; fraud relating to access devices; transmission of gambling information; Mail Fraud; wire fraud; financial institution fraud; citizenship or naturalization fraud; obscene matter; Obstruction of Justice; obstruction of criminal investigation; obstruction of state or local law enforcement; witness tampering; retaliation against witness; interference with commerce, bribery, or extortion; interstate transportation in aid of racketeering; interstate transportation of wagering paraphernalia; unlawful welfare fund payments; prohibition of illegal gambling business; Money Laundering; monetary transactions in property derived from unlawful activities; murder for hire; sexual exploitation of children; interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicles; interstate transportation of stolen property; sale of stolen goods; trafficking in motor vehicles and parts; trafficking in contraband cigarettes; white slave traffic; restrictions of payments and loans to labor organizations; embezzlement from union funds; Bankruptcy fraud; fraud in the sale of Securities; felonious manufacture, importation, receiving, concealment, buying, selling, or otherwise dealing in narcotic or other dangerous drugs; and any act that is indictable under the Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting Act.
 
Listen, I hate BioWare for this as much as the next guy, but you're being kind of ridiculous. Locking out features behind a pay wall has been a common practice in other types of software for years, and it doesn't fit the description of your wall of text unless you decide to go with the vaguest definitions of the above terms AND pre-suppose that it's racketeering.
 
Listen, I hate BioWare for this as much as the next guy, but you're being kind of ridiculous. Locking out features behind a pay wall has been a common practice in other types of software for years, and it doesn't fit the description of your wall of text unless you decide to go with the vaguest definitions of the above terms AND pre-suppose that it's racketeering.

Yes, however with those products you knew what you were getting before hand, when you entered into the "pay wall" as you put, what you could and could not do. For e.g with Reason. Propeller-Head state openly what you can and cannot do with the free version and the premium tools, they absolutely have to do this, not only for sheer principle. I have seen the debate raging in the piracy thread similar to this, which I'm not touching with a ten foot pole at the moment.

However normally if this was a previous gen we would have no idea about this on-disc corporate spreed sheet angling, but the information is available and you have been purposely restricted from something that was actually pressed on disc and sold to you.

So far there is no such thing as digital-racketeering that I know of, but the term racketeering very much applies here in its essence.
 
DLC-on-disc is nothing new, it was to be expected the day Day 1 DLC was announced. There is another problem here:

ME trilogy tells the story of humanity and other races struggle against the Reapers. Major plot involves advance race called the Proteans, who went extinct as a result of Reapers' invasion.

ME3 gives us the possibility to interact with a living Protean.

He's not in the game, but is available as a DLC.


PoP shit right there.
 
Yes, however with those products you knew what you were getting before hand, when you entered into the "pay wall" as you put. Normally if this was a previous gen we would have no idea about this on-disc corporate spreed sheet angling, but the information is available and you have been purposely restricted from something that was actually pressed on disc and sold to you.

Still doesn't fly. In the strictest sense, BioWare was forthright about the DLC; "From Ashes" only comes with the special edition. The Prothean squad member being on the disc by himself is indicative of the whole mission being cut from the disc, but that's a different issue.
 
Haven't read the rest of the thread, so forgive me if this has been addressed, but I DL'd From Ashes and the download took a while, which shouldn't be the case if it was on the disc.

The problem here is Bioware flat out lied to the fans about the dlc. They stated that they never take content that was originally part of the core game out to make it dlc. It is then found that by changing 2 lines of code of data that are on the disc, you have full access to Javik, the exclusive dlc character. You may think well it's just the model blah blah but then you realize that not only does he get unlocked by doing basically nothing, he is a fully complete character with taunts, dialogue, and skill tree. What you are downloading is the mission itself and a bit more dialogue, etc. but pretty much everything linked to Javik himself, is on the the disc and was obviously suppose to be part of the core game and story and was locked out for the sake of dlc.

Bioware claims that work for the dlc didn't start until after the core game was done and being pressed but with this evidence it is simply impossible that that is the case. No fucking way in hell that the dlc started after the core game when Javik is a fully functional character within the core game without the dlc.

They lied to our faces and are digging the hole even deeper on their own forums. Whats worse, there are sorry fucks actually defending this.
 
If this isn't Racketeering in its basic form I don't know what is.

Racketeering is a catch all crime used for prosecuting organized crime. Attempting to apply it to this situation is ignorant and absurd. You'll noticed "fraud" was attached to many of the phrases you picked out. But there is no fraud being perpetrated here. Everyone is being told what is for sale, and they're getting what they've paid for. Unless you have evidence EA is also secretly raiding our credit accounts and digitally delivering counterfeit DLC you should probably get lost.
 
Well, I finally relented and paid for the From Ashes DLC. From what I could tell it was just too integral to the storyline to miss out on. I mean, a whole new playable character integrated into the storyline?

So effectively this game cost me the original price plus the ten bucks extra.

And this is really what gets me about this - it's dishonest. I don't care what EA/Bioware says, they're really trying to charge an extra 10 bucks for their game. Because either you get the Collector's Edition or you shell out the extra clams. The regular edition of the game is simply incomplete and no serious ME fan, as I am, will be happy to go without it.

If they really feel like charging more for their game, rather just charge more. Some people will still bitch of course, but at least you're being honest. It's the slimy way they try and fool you with this day one DLC that I really dislike.

The article is right, no other media could get away with this. Pay regular price for this movie, or pay extra and get to see an extra 10 minutes of footage. Or the song analogy they used.

You see, we all see through this now. It's obvious these companies are price-gouging. Everyone knows what they're doing now, so you can't keep doing it in good faith. This practice has to stop.

Rant over.
 
They've already showed what "cancer" means. It was correctly used.

Did you even read the original post using the word 'cancer'?

Your mistake is posting inane bullshit responses in every thread you go into. It is like you have no goal in any thread other than to be a contrarian asshole and go out of your way to post in support of shit that is bad for gaming; and stupid in general. You might as well be Vox-pops fucking twin brother.

It was a joke. His forum name is PrinceofApathy. Come on.

I don't understand this culture of "I don't like this user, so I'm going to make a jab at him for no other reason than he is posting in a thread". Does Person Y disagreeing somehow invalidate everything Person X writes? It's the biggest cop-out argument on a forum ever.

"Hey, guys! He doesn't agree with me! Don't listen to him!"

Talk about Dudebro.
 
I'll forgive the DLC fiasco if Bioware will create a more decent ending patch free.

Yes, I'm that desperate for a better ending.
 
It's not about the content being integrated into the game, it's about what the content is. It's really not difficult to understand.

I mean, I shouldn't have to make absurd examples to get across the idea that some elements of a game or story are more central and necessary than others. When people bring up the idea of the ending as DLC, this is what they're making a point about: there are some specific things that, by their very existence, make the nominal "core game" incomplete, even if the base package technically includes "enough" content judged solely by the numbers.

As I talked about in the last thread about this, the idea of hard budget limits here is extremely implausible. Mass Effect is a big game, with an extremely large budget and a pretty decent amount of room to flex on the exactitudes of that budget. Squadmates, especially storyline-important ones, would be one of the very first things locked down and budgeted around. For this particular content to be part of the game and then cut because of budget concerns it would speak to rampant incompetence on the part of the development staff -- far from further excusing the behavior, it only makes the situation worse.

If you read my original post, you'd see that it was a hypothetical - I said that I was not implying that a hard dollar budget limit was what actually happened, rather I was curious to see if people thought they would have been happier if this character was just excised from the game entirely. I actually agree with you that a hard dollar budget limit was unlikely, which is why I had all the disclaimers saying that I was not trying to imply that that is what actually happened.

I haven't played Mass Effect 3. I probably sound like I'm on the Bioware defense force but honestly, I get what you are saying, it sounds like this is an important character and part of the game, and I understand the outrage.

I have played a fair amount of Mass Effect 2, however. If it's structured similarly, then each character has their dialogue, etc. with other characters, and that character has it's unique mission, where you built their loyalty up with you.

It's not hard to come up with a scenario where they had budgeted time and money for this character from the beginning, but then they ended up running out of time and this character's unique mission was not going to make it onto the disc for launch day. What are your options at that point?

1. Release the game without him or his loyalty mission, then add him in as DLC.
2. Release the game without his loyalty mission, but leave him accessible, then add it in as day one DLC.
3. Cut him from the game entirely since his mission won't be ready and the game will be inconsistent compared to the other characters and release nothing and speak nothing further of him.
4. Delay the game another 4-6 weeks to get him onto the disc. Note that this would push the game out of EA's fiscal year and would screw up all of their financial projections.

(I can think of another scenario where they ran out of disc space on the 360 and/or couldn't find a good place to put his mission on one or both of the discs. Someone more motivated than I am should be able to prove/disprove this scenario, but it is my understanding that if you push the 360 disc size to the limits, it has a very real impact on the efficiency of game testing. I think this is less likely, though.)

Of course, I think a lot of the ill will would be gone if this DLC was free. But I think someone made a business decision that this content was going to make the Collector's Edition more premium in order to make lemonade from lemons (and if it were free DLC, then it hurts the perceived value of the CE).

In all fairness I think captainnapalm's post about how it just feels dishonest rings true - it does feel like a promise broken...but I can see why it happened. Not sure what the best thing to do about it is, though...
 
I take the view day 1 DLC, pre-order bonuses and the like are probably not good for the conumer in principle. Unfortunately the consumer all too often doesn't care what's good for them in principle when they're hooked on something.

All of these moves are simply methods that increase the return on investment for the developer/publisher - basic up-sell or cross-sell pitches leveraging an initial interest.

In this case I dislike the fact the DLC feels very close to content that isn't an extra off-shot mission that you could take or leave but something fairly close to the core game and designed specifically to make people feel they really need it to appreciate the title.

You could say all DLC tries this, but for me there is a line between additional extensions of the original title I can chose to invest in for more fun and extensions that feel integral to the original title and make the shipped title feel incomplete. This DLC (which I haven't bought so can't say for sure) seems based on descriptions to cross this line.
 
Would you rather them make insubstantial DLC with story that doesn't make a difference

That's exactly what I want. Self-contained short stories that are not part of the games main narrative, but still make use of the backgroudn and setting, and that can be played and enjoyed at any time during the game. See Fallout NV for DLC done completely right.
 
That's exactly what I want. Self-contained short stories that are not part of the games main narrative, but still make use of the backgroudn and setting, and that can be played and enjoyed at any time during the game. See Fallout NV for DLC done completely right.

Exactly. There's a huge difference between releasing new adventures a couple of months after the game is released and day one dlc that is totally integrated into the main game. They know they will snag far more people doing it the second way, effectively selling the game for ten bucks extra as soon as it is released.
 
Total garbage decision by Bioware. I really don't understand why they went along with something like this.

While I do understand rewarding day 1 buyers or new-game buyers with extra bonus shit, while used game buyers have to dish out an extra 10 bucks or so for it, this 'pay 10 bucks more' to get some stuff that's already on the disc day 1 is just totally fucked up.

I wanted to buy ME3 day 1 but this has just put me off the game on a whole. I will probably buy it in a year or so when the price falls down and a GOTY edition is out, but what they did now is just wrong. Wrong. WRONG!!
 
So this is the exact opposite of Catwoman from Arkham city, in terms of story? Putting Catwoman behind a paywall in AC really turned me off from the game, but she wasn't really integral to the story. This, on the other hand, sounds like Bioware took out a character that was planned from the begining, just to make money.

I have to seriously reconsider whether I'll support them again in the future. Case Hudson can eat a dick for this shit.
 
Thanks for posting that, and yeah, the trust is shattered, because Bioware is clearly lying through their teeth trying to play off day one dlc as if it were developed at some other point, or budgeted serperately.

That trust has also been shattered with Capcom, and their bullshit practice of having finished "dlc" on the disc. It's funny how despite the content being completed and on the disc, they're going to wait months before selling the unlock code. I guess it's to give afalse impression that it was developed after the game shipped.

The truly sad part for me is that some gamers actually buy into whatever the developer tells them. Sorry, but I don't feel a single bit of sympathy for these developers, nor do I feel they deserve to stick it to consumers, because they created an illusion of doing extra work.
 
So this is the exact opposite of Catwoman from Arkham city, in terms of story? Putting Catwoman behind a paywall in AC really turned me off from the game, but she wasn't really integral to the story. This, on the other hand, sounds like Bioware took out a character that was planned from the begining, just to make money.

I have to seriously reconsider whether I'll support them again in the future. Case Hudson can eat a dick for this shit.

Actually the Catwoman case is probably the most comparable with this situation and part of the same disturbing trend. How many Arkham fans really passed on Catwoman? Everyone wanted that, obviously. And really she was pretty involved in the main plot.

I'm a PC guy so I got her free, but I wouldn't have been happy if I'd had to pay extra on day one.
 
Actually the Catwoman case is probably the most comparable with this situation and part of the same disturbing trend. How many Arkham fans really passed on Catwoman? Everyone wanted that, obviously. And really she was pretty involved in the main plot.

I'm a PC guy so I got her free, but I wouldn't have been happy if I'd had to pay extra on day one.

It's really not comparable at all. The Catwoman content was included for all copies of the game in the form of a DLC code. The only people who would have had to pay for it separately would be people who purchased the game second-hand.
 
In all fairness I think captainnapalm's post about how it just feels dishonest rings true - it does feel like a promise broken...but I can see why it happened. Not sure what the best thing to do about it is, though...

well, not giving them your money might be one option :) ...

i had enough fun with me2, but've felt no urgent need to go back. so this bioware/ea bullshit's pretty much the final nail in the coffin for me...

It's really not comparable at all. The Catwoman content was included for all copies of the game in the form of a DLC code. The only people who would have had to pay for it separately would be people who purchased the game second-hand.

sorta cheesy, but, yeah, this i didn't have much of a problem with...
 
Actually the Catwoman case is probably the most comparable with this situation and part of the same disturbing trend. How many Arkham fans really passed on Catwoman? Everyone wanted that, obviously. And really she was pretty involved in the main plot.

I'm a PC guy so I got her free, but I wouldn't have been happy if I'd had to pay extra on day one.

Well, I brought that up because Catwoman's narrative was extremely disjointed from the rest of the game. Honestly, she didn't really need to be there and didn't really service the story in any real, meaningful way. This DLC character for ME3, on the other hand, sounds like a character that would be vastly important to the lore of the series, particularly for people who've played the first two. Further, it sounds like this DLC character isn't like Zaeed was in ME2, this new character is fully integrated into the game with dialogue options and reactions, etc.

Basically it sounds like if you take out this character, you lose some of the story that is important to not just mass effect 3, but to the entire trilogy as a whole. Whereas Catwoman could have been gone from the game and it really wouldn't have made much of a difference.

*edit* Bioware also took it one step further. Catwoman was at least free for people who bought a new copy. This DLC character isn't free to anybody except people who bought the collector's edition.

And really, at some point something needs to be done about this. This is pretty much the defintion of hostility towards your customer. As I said previously, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider giving Bioware any of my money in the future.
 
Actually the Catwoman case is probably the most comparable with this situation and part of the same disturbing trend. How many Arkham fans really passed on Catwoman? Everyone wanted that, obviously. And really she was pretty involved in the main plot.

I'm a PC guy so I got her free, but I wouldn't have been happy if I'd had to pay extra on day one.

I regretted having the Catwoman content installed for my Batman playthrough, I feels it hurts the pacing of the game a bit and doesn't really add anything to the story. One of the times where the game cut to a Catwoman mission I literally said "fuck this, take me back to the Batman story!", quit the game and uninstalled the DLC. Sadly the game won't let you play on your save file without that content if you started the game with it installed.

I also would have liked Mass Effect 2 even better if I hadn't played the Zaeed and Firewalker missions.

The DLC for Mass Effect 3 looks like it's an important part of the ME universe but not really what they've been telling ME3 is all about (I haven't played either yet). I plan to buy it only after I'm done with my playthrough of the game and if the reviews are good enough.

I don't want my games to have as much content as possible, I prefer that what's there is tight and polished.
 
PoP shit right there.

not sure what the above means. i've played all the Prince of Persia games and didn't buy DLC for any of them... and i never felt like i saw an incomplete game.

one of the reasons i *didn't* buy the epilogue DLC for PoP2008 was because i loved the ending and didn't want to step all over it.
 
It's really not comparable at all. The Catwoman content was included for all copies of the game in the form of a DLC code. The only people who would have had to pay for it separately would be people who purchased the game second-hand.

OK, don't know why I thought people had to pay extra for Catwoman. I forgot it was a free code.

It was really just done to discourage second hand sales then, which in itself isn't very nice.
 
They should have made Vega the Day 1 DLC character instead. But i suppose no one would have bought him huh?
 
Bioware/EA might well be the worst collaboration in video game history. Bioware's ignorance towards their loyal customers is mind-boggling.

No way these guys developed Baldur's Gate 2, I'm in complete denial.
 
not sure what the above means. i've played all the Prince of Persia games and didn't buy DLC for any of them... and i never felt like i saw an incomplete game.

one of the reasons i *didn't* buy the epilogue DLC for PoP2008 was because i loved the ending and didn't want to step all over it.
*High five*

I get the impression it's not the popular opinion though. I personally loved how unique the ending was and that the decision actually fit with what the game was building up to. I have no idea what happens in Epilogue and I'm not interested in finding out one bit.
 
The DLC looks interesting, and it would have been cool to have a Prothean teammate, but for $10 I passed. Enjoying Mass Effect 3 so far without the DLC.
 
It definitely should have been a bonus for pre-order and new buyers as opposed to strait up DLC. Sad that that is becoming the new normal for SP games but that would have been ok. Otherwise it is a strait up fan tax.

Poor form Bioware.
 
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