HocusPocus
Member
I quite enjoyed it and it was free for me. 
Forbes: The Problem With BioWare's Mass Effect 3 Day-One DLC
- Thread starter Darklord
- Start date
witchedwiz
Member
this..
because no matter how much one or two rants, a lot of people simply open their wallet and scream "have my baby along with all the dough"...
Not sure which game you're talking about but expansion packs have been around for a good while and no one could make a valid complaint about them. Just because they're provided in digital form now a days doesn't make them worse or a bad idea (I'm sure most gamers would appreciate them).
The problem here (and in other games) is that the content is on the disc and was completed before the game shipped. In some cases the DLC is obviously removed from the main package just to turn it into DLC (Arkham City).
People didn't have a problem with the ME and ME2 DLCs so why would Bioware screw this up is some thing that I can't understand (I know they want to make more money but come the fuck on). Capcom's SFIV DLC was OK and people who wanted the extra costumes paid for them but what they've done with SFxT put me off purchasing the game. In the end it's not really my loss since there are plenty of other products which will take up my time instead of them. It's just sad to see developers that you like pull this sort of crap.
plagiarize
Banned
i don't ignore the differences, i just celebrate one developer and whatever the other, rather than rage at either one.
one thing i'd gladly concede is that DLC about killed off cheat modes, and that that is a shame, but other than that, games don't seem to be giving me less content or closure this gen than last and that's what i personally care about. i don't care about what a developer 'owes me', or how much money they hope to make or any of that. do they make stuff i like?
so long as they do, and they aren't enslaving children or whatever, i just don't see this as worth getting angry about.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
This claim--that the vast majority of DLC purchases are made in a 1-month window--seems to be the impetus for the From Ashes DLC. Anyone know if this applied to ME2's DLC? How did Shadow Broker or Arrival sell compared to the others?
SketchTheArtist
Member
It's just that the DLC mentality for gamers has changed a lot with some studios pulling some really shady stuff especially with those pre-order bonuses that are actually free and they have you pay for them later. That's why I'm a bit angry with some of the stuff people say about DLC and the fact that they put them all in the same basket.
Also, the whole DLC on day one, the cost and release as to do with the publisher, not the developer. You guys should try to keep that in mind.
Throwaway123456789
Member
Michael Gamble (producer) responds:
Felix Lighter
Member
I actually think he's being honest. I also don't know how much that matters. Regardless of whether it was developed during the certification process or during normal development, the perception is an important squad member that was created prior to launch is being sold separately day one and the game feels incomplete if you don't pay the extra money. I wouldn't call it immoral; I think it's just a shitty way to exploit fans. I also hope that these tactics will catch up to them eventually but I have little room to complain because I bought the game.
I have learned not to let myself become invested in a Bioware franchise in the future though. The stuff surrounding DA 2 and ME 3, have changed me from a diehard happy fan, to a relunctant distrusting customer.
I have learned not to let myself become invested in a Bioware franchise in the future though. The stuff surrounding DA 2 and ME 3, have changed me from a diehard happy fan, to a relunctant distrusting customer.
astroturfing
Member
i REALLY hope the people at Bioware hear you, and understand that this sentiment is not rare. because i'm kinda feeling the same... i haven't bought ME3 yet, but i will. and will probably download all the DLC too (i'm a sucker). but i will feel like a chump, and like i'm being treated shitty as a customer...
does it matter to them, if they get the money anyway? i hope it does.
LunaticHigh
Member
We need more news articles like this so that it doesn't happen again, it's a crime against consumers.
don't do this.
Diatribe1974
Member
ALL Bioware had to have done to have avoided all this bullshit firestorm surrounding them was to have the DLC stuff as a Pre-Order bonus and then Day 1 DLC for those who didn't pre-order. But to make it a "Free to the Collectors Edition folks" (who're already paying more than the normal version anyways) and paid DLC (which isn't downloadable content anyways since it's already on the disc) for the shlubs who didn't get the Collectors Edition (which was 98% of everyone out there) shows that this is nothing more than a money grab initiated by EA and allowed to have happened by Bioware. It just goes to show you how far Bioware has fallen in the eyes of consumers & supporters such as myself.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
My guess is to make it appear that the content is not on the disc.
That's not what they do. The artists and designers who are at a bit of a loose end while the coders are ironing out bugs would ordinarily be moved on to prep-work for whatever the next project might be. Instead, they stay around and start working on DLC.
No-one is newly-employed, just the resources are allocated appropriately.
Felix Lighter
Member
The character and some voice files have been shown to have been on the disk but the actual mission was part of the download, or that is at least what Bioware has said.
So one of the factors that people are complaining about is that they recorded the voices for the DLC at the same time as everything else? That just sounds like efficiency.
I see, you are angry that something that is completely integrated into the game (as opposed to say, an extra level or two as an epilogue) is being sold as DLC instead of being given to you free on the disc.
I don't know what Bioware's budget was for ME3. What if the real situation is that the character and missions were cut because of budgetary constraints on a $60 game vs. completing the work as day one DLC? (I don't mean to imply that this is what happened, I have no idea, just giving you a scenario where you simply were not going to get this content if it wasn't paid DLC.)
In a world where this DLC simply did not exist in any form, would you be happier, since you would never know about it?
Also, this morning I forgot to post the slide before the two I posted already. I think it is also relevant.
BruiserBear
Banned
No, it won't matter. Their goal is to get your money, not be the most beloved developer around.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Wow, this is really blowing up, isn't it? Good. I hope the heat gets to Bioware and causes them to do some self-reflection.
The cynic in me knows they will do nothing of the sort, though.
Bring on Call of Dragon Age, I guess.
The cynic in me knows they will do nothing of the sort, though.
Bring on Call of Dragon Age, I guess.
It's not just that the character is heavily integrated into the game, which he is, but also that the nature of this particular character makes him rather quite important to the overall Mass Effect lore.
It's no surprise that many view it as malicious on EA and Bioware's part. They knew this was the type of character with the type of story that Mass Effect fans would love to have. Why did they ever even consider such a thing for DLC in the first place? Because they knew it would sell. And given the amount of dialogue he shares with other characters, it's rather questionable just how far into production he was developed. We're not talking a Zaeed/Kasumi situation here - far from it.
Even with other egregious bits of DLC that devs and publishers utilize to punish used game buyers and those who rent games, it's usually at least included with new purchases. It's a brave new world. Mass Effect 3 sold nearly a million copies in 24 hours and has shipped 3.5 million. I don't think Bioware and EA are starving.
I think Day 1 DLC is bad for a couple of reasons. But I agree that most DLC will be bough sooner than later. Releasing it a month or so would delay some of the sellers (or achievement collectors) from unloading used copies. Also, expensive expansions or seasons passes make people feel more invested in their purchase.
A cheap bit of garbage DLC only pisses people off, and doesn't stop used copies from hitting shelves. A rewarding release of content that makes buyers feel connected to a universe or invested in their purchase will make them hang on longer or even keep their copy. Basically, release a good game, and support it with a stream of enriching content that actually delivers.
A cheap bit of garbage DLC only pisses people off, and doesn't stop used copies from hitting shelves. A rewarding release of content that makes buyers feel connected to a universe or invested in their purchase will make them hang on longer or even keep their copy. Basically, release a good game, and support it with a stream of enriching content that actually delivers.
I think your main problem seems to be that Bioware did too good of a job. You and others seem to be kind of angry that they came up with something that's well integrated and that you actually want to play, and now you're angry because you feel you have to buy it. I mean really look at what you just said. You said it's not Zaeed/Kasumi stuff. Well, a lot of people (me included) didn't really give a shit about Zaeed/Kasumi and thought they were kind of shitty because they weren't integrated and I didn't care about their story so much, because it didn't matter. Bioware took those complaints to heart and set out to create something people would want and value more.
That chart made me think of the reaction to the announcement of upcoming DLC for Battlefield 3. Initial excitement was pretty heavily tempered by the June release date.
And the claims of the ME3 DLC being "too integrated" are laughable after Turn 10 got torn apart for DLC not factoring into Forza's "campaign" mode. Other developers notice that stuff and improve on their implementation. It's bizarre that they get ripped apart for that as well. Gamers are really, really hard to please.
I don't get this either. Are people really thinking about this at all? I mean if a company asked me how I would like my character DLC to be done I'd pretty much tell them exactly like Bioware did it. I want my character DLC to be important in some sort of way, not some useless nobody. I want it to be integrated into the whole game enough that it feels like part of the game. And I want that shit on day one. Anytime after a week or so then I don't give a shit about it. I'm nearly done with the game after a few weeks, so I'm not going to get enough use with the character. The closer that character is to release date the more bang for my buck I get.
I mean, really, do you guys want unimportant characters that aren't well integrated and they're released 30 days after the game is released? Is that really what you want? Are you going to buy that, or do you just want that so you don't feel like you have to buy it?
It's painful seeing people missing the point so badly.
No, it's that it's so well-integrated that it's highly questionable as a piece of DLC that doesn't come with the game. I'm saying it's not a Zaeed/Kasumi situation because Bioware attempted to bring those bits of DLC up in their defense.
Zaeed and Kasumi weren't cohesively integrated and that made the notion that they weren't developed during production more believable, as they shared no dialogue with any of the other voice actors outside of Shepard, and even then, only when you recruited them and during their loyalty missions. Back on the ship they only dealt in monologues, which is much easier as it only requires that voice actor to do work.
Javik shares dialogue not only with Shepard, but with the other crew members as well, and does so throughout the entire game. Zaeed and Kasumi would share monologues on the ship. Javik isn't like that at all.
No, it's that it's so well-integrated that it's highly questionable as a piece of DLC that doesn't come with the game. I'm saying it's not a Zaeed/Kasumi situation because Bioware attempted to bring those bits of DLC up in their defense.
Zaeed and Kasumi weren't cohesively integrated and that made the notion that they weren't developed during production more believable, as they shared no dialogue with any of the other voice actors outside of Shepard, and even then, only when you recruited them and during their loyalty missions. Back on the ship they only dealt in monologues, which is much easier as it only requires that voice actor to do work.
Javik shares dialogue not only with Shepard, but with the other crew members as well, and does so throughout the entire game. Zaeed and Kasumi would share monologues on the ship. Javik isn't like that at all.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Actually I'm pretty sure Bioware sees it that way too. Who is most likely to buy the product even with business practices like this? The rabid fans are, that is who, so don't worry about bending them over the barrel, you already know they love it.
Again I reiterate who gives a flying fuck when the shit was made? I mean really, this has no bearing on anything. They could have made the fucking DLC before the game for all I give a shit. When you purchase a game you should ask yourself two questions 1) Is the type of content here something that I might enjoy and 2) Is the amount of content here worth however much they're asking for. If you've answered yes to both of those but are still butthurt over when the DLC was made, then I don't know what to say. You apparently got your money's worth. If you answer no to one of those, then that's your problem.
And again, your complaint is that Javik is more integrated? That's your complaint? Seriously, think about this for a second. Do you really want less integrated characters for DLC, and would you be buying those? Or do you just want to feel like you don't HAVE to buy the DLC?
I'm not complaining that Javik is well-integrated, you raging buffoon. I'm saying the fact that he's so well-integrated is what gives strength to the notion that he was purposefully held back to sell as DLC.
Reading comprehension is difficult.
DLC was initially developed as a way to give consumers content after a game has released. Day 1 DLC was non-existent.
Now it has become a way for companies to get a little extra cash by purposely withholding parts of their game and releasing them as "extras."
Anyone defending these practices is ridiculous. Go back 10 years and the mere idea that this could be happening would cause riots. Stuff that is currently released as DLC used to be activated through finding an easter egg, using cheat codes, by completing a particularly hard mission or 100%'ing the game. Now games a purposefully broken up and released in parts, just to nickle and dime the consumers as much as possible.
It won't stop here either. The more support these actions get, the more companies will push the boundaries. The only way to stop it is to stop buying this crap, no matter how pretty the advertisements make it seem.
Now it has become a way for companies to get a little extra cash by purposely withholding parts of their game and releasing them as "extras."
Anyone defending these practices is ridiculous. Go back 10 years and the mere idea that this could be happening would cause riots. Stuff that is currently released as DLC used to be activated through finding an easter egg, using cheat codes, by completing a particularly hard mission or 100%'ing the game. Now games a purposefully broken up and released in parts, just to nickle and dime the consumers as much as possible.
It won't stop here either. The more support these actions get, the more companies will push the boundaries. The only way to stop it is to stop buying this crap, no matter how pretty the advertisements make it seem.
I already responded to this. Why is this notion that he was purposefully held back to sell as DLC bad? Why does that matter? Did you not get enough content with ME3? Or were you one of the people raging about this before the game was even released?
The thing is that people complained about Kasumi and Zaeed in that they weren't well integrated. Well in order to integrate a character well you pretty well have to develop it along side or close to the rest of the game, not that that matters to me anyway.
Edit: For further clarification, the only way that Javik level character DLC could ever exist was if they did it during the normal game time. Otherwise it really couldn't. That's because any other time it would be far too expensive to bring in all the voice actors yet again. That's why Uncharted never gets any story dlc, because bringing in VAs would cost a lot and would be too hard to try and figure out. But people want story DLC for Uncharted. That's the big thing I hear people saying they want. Now say for Uncharted 4 they decide "Ok, we'll do story DLC," and so they have to put in a bit of a larger budget in order to do it. And they have to do it alongside the main game, because that's when the VAs are in. Are people going to get pissy about that, then, since it was done at the same time as everything else and not given to you for free with it?
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
The real game journalists who wrote their pandering pieces should be all over this. Of course they wouldn't be, they have free conferences to attend and that would upset the apple cart.
This is nothing but pure maliciousness and malice expertly choreographed in the most heinous fashion possible. Yet no one in the journalistic circles can see the outrage in this entire debacle.
In addition to this being vile. The long reaching implications that will ripple into the future is uncanny. Not only will these corporate bags of evil be rubbing their hands in glee after profiting from the cancers that partook in this universal scam. No one realises EA has basically just focus and field tested a $70.00 entry price point.
This is nothing but pure maliciousness and malice expertly choreographed in the most heinous fashion possible. Yet no one in the journalistic circles can see the outrage in this entire debacle.
In addition to this being vile. The long reaching implications that will ripple into the future is uncanny. Not only will these corporate bags of evil be rubbing their hands in glee after profiting from the cancers that partook in this universal scam. No one realises EA has basically just focus and field tested a $70.00 entry price point.
The fact that there's serious problems with the model either way suggests to me that a storyline character is unsuitable to be DLC.
Sad that we have to turn to Forbes for some actual journalism. The actual game 'journalists' all seem scared of being blacklisted by publishers so they avoid anything that might put pressure on them.
So I'm a cancer that partook in a scam?
How so?
While I haven't finished ME3 yet, nothing has indicated to me that I'm getting any less of a game than I expected for my $60. In fact I've bought a few other games that had far less content and playtime to them (God of War III, Heavy Rain, etc). I feel like even without the DLC I got my money's worth.
And as for the DLC, I think it's probably worth that $10 so far. As I've said before, if I'm going to get a character DLC I want it right away so that I can get more bang for my buck. Javik on day 30 wouldn't be worth anything to me. He'd be worth literally $0, because I'm pretty much done with the game then. He's worth $10 on day 1, because I can use him through my entire game. He enhances everything.
So now I'm a cancer? Somehow I should change my view and not think I got enough content for my $60? What?
Open Source
Banned
One of the problems here is that some games should be priced higher than $60, but that is impossible (aside from special editions).
Of course, making players feel like they are getting an incomplete version of the game for $60 is not an acceptable alternative.
Of course, making players feel like they are getting an incomplete version of the game for $60 is not an acceptable alternative.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Sadly, there are people on these forums that think it is their job to tell people that they shouldn't actually like something.
Worse yet, there are users that think it is impossible to like something, and that you are lying for some odd reason if you ever say that you do.
Schweinehund
Member
Should have been like ME2, no reason to package it with only the CE.
Bioware is just testing the market imo. DA2 and ME2 both got the companion for free and other dlc, this was more barebones.
Bioware is just testing the market imo. DA2 and ME2 both got the companion for free and other dlc, this was more barebones.
The problem to me is that these complaints were popping up before the game was even released. Purchasing these things was already a cancer in their eyes before they could even make some sort of actual value evaluation on the product. So not only is it their job to tell people that they didn't like something, it's apparently to tell people that they won't like it in the future... somehow.
I mean yeah people have every right to be angry about getting a product with less content than they think $60 is worth, but a lot of people didn't even know how much content ME3 would have when they started complaining. And while playing ME3 I haven't noticed any real lack of content at all. It feels like a full $60 game.
Treemonkeys
Member
Bioware lost my trust between ME2 and DA2 and they won't get any of my money outside of $10 or less bargain bin sales.
This day 1 DLC only makes my happier with that decision.
This day 1 DLC only makes my happier with that decision.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I just stop listening at the word cancer.
I mean, do you even know what you're fucking saying? Do you know anyone with cancer?
I'm just annoyed that I pre-ordered the Digital Edition one day before BioPoints went on sale.
I know despite having most retail 60$ games beat in both quantity and quality of content the downloadable 20$ expansions to gta 4 sold like shit. Don't have exact numbers but they mentioned it a few times and is why they took different approaches with rdr/lanoire.
They weren't released until a long ass time later either.
charlequin
Banned
It's not about the content being integrated into the game, it's about what the content is. It's really not difficult to understand.
I mean, I shouldn't have to make absurd examples to get across the idea that some elements of a game or story are more central and necessary than others. When people bring up the idea of the ending as DLC, this is what they're making a point about: there are some specific things that, by their very existence, make the nominal "core game" incomplete, even if the base package technically includes "enough" content judged solely by the numbers.
As I talked about in the last thread about this, the idea of hard budget limits here is extremely implausible. Mass Effect is a big game, with an extremely large budget and a pretty decent amount of room to flex on the exactitudes of that budget. Squadmates, especially storyline-important ones, would be one of the very first things locked down and budgeted around. For this particular content to be part of the game and then cut because of budget concerns it would speak to rampant incompetence on the part of the development staff -- far from further excusing the behavior, it only makes the situation worse.
Well, it probably wouldn't kill you to stop for a minute and try to really engage with the actual problem people are raising in this thread.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
was this posted?
Kotaku (afaik) is on the case!
Its been posted and it was as dubious, misleading and incompetent the first time.
I honestly can't believe I'm about to use a word in the "video-game" spectrum that I never thought possible. EA and Bioware have actually somehow engaged in Racketeering before our very eyes.
What reasons were given for that?
at first I thought "Bullshit!" but then I thought again...
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Your first mistake was responding to the Prince of Apathy.
I've had real cancer two times, and my mother died of cancer in 2010, but I still think it's ok to use the language in that way sometimes. No offense though.
Anyway, I think day one DLC is fine, even charging a billion dollars for it, as long as what you paid for in the first place gave you value. Of course, the criteria is that the DLC is also giving a certain value, or at least the value has to be completely transparent.
Your mistake is posting inane bullshit responses in every thread you go into. It is like you have no goal in any thread other than to be a contrarian asshole and go out of your way to post in support of shit that is bad for gaming; and stupid in general. You might as well be Vox-pops fucking twin brother.