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Former Kerbal Space Program dev blasts studio for low pay and high crunch
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
¡HarlequinPanic!
Member
What's the problem here? *chomp chomp*
John Kowalski
Banned
KSP is from Mexico?? I had no idea.
Regrettable to see these accusations, if hardly surprising.
Regrettable to see these accusations, if hardly surprising.
Beer Monkey
Member
A game dev that only works 40 hours a week?
Smells fishy.
Smells fishy.
I don't think I'd ever want to live in Mexico...but I'd be a freaking Millionaire there apparently.
I'm packing my things up and building a fortress off the coast somewhere...LOL.
That's just insane as a salary as a game developer though. I'm nowhere near rich (US wise), and I make more in a month than this guy does in a year (admittedly probably doing far less strenuous work).
Hate it for the guy (and all of them for that matter).
Its not just Mexico... many countries round the world minimum wage is that or less.
And when people say well, living costs are lower... hell no... the cost of many things are the same all over the world.
Sounds like an American who wasn't used to getting Mexico wages.
I don't think the dude would be worth 20x more than other employees.
Also, if he outlived his usefulness, what the hell would they keep him hired for? Making macaroni art?
I think the guy picked the wrong industry for worker's rights. And it's a damn shame I have to type that.
I don't think the dude would be worth 20x more than other employees.
Also, if he outlived his usefulness, what the hell would they keep him hired for? Making macaroni art?
I think the guy picked the wrong industry for worker's rights. And it's a damn shame I have to type that.
HundredEyeMonk
Member
Really puts things into perspective when you look at some of these salaries in other countries.
Honestly though, didn't this guy know what his salary was going to be when he started the job? Agreeing to work for that wage and then complaining about it when you are let go seems pretty shitty...
Honestly though, didn't this guy know what his salary was going to be when he started the job? Agreeing to work for that wage and then complaining about it when you are let go seems pretty shitty...
RoadHazard
Gold Member
No idea what a decent Mexican salary is, but that does sound ridiculously low.
Sir Blaming
Member
But...
Why??????????????
Why??????????????
Guess that vindicates the /vg/ thread about it. I also guess that's why he posted to 4chan. They've been shitting on Squad for years now and talking about how bad the development timeline for the game (and company) was.
qa_engineer
Member
AND the company isn't even a real game studio, they're a marketing firm.
John Kowalski
Banned
You're asking why employers take unfair advantage of their employees?
Just reiterating the things that he complained about as immutable fact is not an argument.
(I did laugh at macaroni art though I'll give you that one haha)
CrashPrime
Member
In this thread, people learn about other countries wages.
Understand why people pack like sardines into a 70's pickup risking their life in hopes of getting a job cleaning jizz stains in hotel rooms for minimum wage?
Understand why people pack like sardines into a 70's pickup risking their life in hopes of getting a job cleaning jizz stains in hotel rooms for minimum wage?
I know about studios with a US office but who perform the work at another location in Mexico. Not that they hide this fact at all, I mean they have some great talent working there, but they are basically able to offer the wok at 15-20% of the cost of a US or European work for hire studio.
Bit of googling shows that as of 2012, median household income in Mexico was $4910 US dollars at purchasing power parity. Quickly undoing the PPP adjustment using the ratio between nominal and PPP GDP on the wiki page for Mexico gets us $2649. So this seems about average, maybe a little below it, but I also think it's understandable for Mexico City programmers to be expecting pretty well above-average pay.
I'm sure some actual Mexicans here could probably give more accurate figures.
s_mirage
Member
Now this makes me wonder. Kerbal is one of only a few games that the developers have had removed from steamspy. They said that the reason wasn't because of fear of Mexican cartels, so perhaps the reason is that the bosses didn't want their own staff to know how much money the company is making.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I knew Mexico wasn't up to American/European standards, but for some reason I didn't think they were THAT far behind. Such a sharp divide between two neighbouring countries.
Well, Mexico in the aggregate isn't that far behind. GDP per capita is over $10,000, but it looks like high inequality skews most of that into the hands of a few rich people, so that the median Mexican is pretty poorly off. Again, that's all just based on some quick reading of Wikipedia numbers, so anyone feel free to correct.
Asskicker064
Member
I don't give a shit what the minimum wage in Mexico is. These guys get paid in USD, Euro, etc. You're not buying the product at peso prices. They earn enough to pay their dev team a normal salary. They're playing on the global market here. Really messed up.
Theanine3D
Member
Yup. The game is sold in the U.S. and many other countries where the average salary is much higher, and the game makes decent amount of money in those places. There's no good reason why those developers should be paid so little just because of where they live.
Indie game companies can be just as scummy to their employees as AAA ones. I have my own share of horror stories.
Edit: Nevermind. Corrected by someone living in the country!
Ah, nevermind!
I'm from Mexico and my monthly salary its $35,000 pesos (around $2,100 dollars). This puts me in the medium class level and it lets me live a comfortable life with some luxuries here and there.
But, being paid $2,400 its very low even for mexican people. The lowest paid people at my work are around $2800- $4000 pesos ($100 - $200 dollars) monthly. If I am not mistaken the minimun wage its $73 pesos which its around $4 dollars.
But, being paid $2,400 its very low even for mexican people. The lowest paid people at my work are around $2800- $4000 pesos ($100 - $200 dollars) monthly. If I am not mistaken the minimun wage its $73 pesos which its around $4 dollars.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
It sucks that this happened but their employers are running a business. If they don't have other projects for you to do and can run the game's updates without you, why are you needed? Your $200 a month can go to something else.
What does it matter if you did the brunt of the work?
Luckydog
Member
I was building a bridge, but once it was done and all they had to do was maintain it, they fired the bridge builder. Yes this is reductive, but if he was not actively maintaining the product (or a cheaper resource could) what was supposed to happen?
This doesnt absolve the low wages though. Even adjusting for location that seems sub par.
The really interesting bit of this story is that squad is actually a guerilla marketing company and the owners are using the profits from KSP to fund their personal projects of making a film and recording an album. More here: https://m.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4i1qzu/the_indie_game_developer_behind_kerbal_space/d2uidc6
That's awful. Regardless of the average salary, game dev is probably harder to do than the average job. Kerbal has been a very successful game and the employees should be compensated more for contributing so much to it.
I also heard that the company founders are doing GREAT for themselves so it just sounds like a case of the fat cats rolling in money by screwing over everyone under them. And I fucking hate it when that shit happens.
I also heard that the company founders are doing GREAT for themselves so it just sounds like a case of the fat cats rolling in money by screwing over everyone under them. And I fucking hate it when that shit happens.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I believe some of this is probably related to the fact that the developer was not originally a gaming firm, right, it was a marketing or design firm or something that started working on a game on the side which unexpectedly exploded?
I worked as a programmer for a relatively small company (~75 employees) in the publishing sector and was undervalued because they didn't really need a programmer full-time. Then, when print media declined and the company began to shift more to digital content (and so my role was more crucial to the company), my value didn't rise proportionately because they were still thinking of this as a very ancillary role.
Of course you would think with the kind of tens of millions of dollar success Squad has gotten from KSP they would eventually recalibrate to realizing that their employees were a part of that.
I worked as a programmer for a relatively small company (~75 employees) in the publishing sector and was undervalued because they didn't really need a programmer full-time. Then, when print media declined and the company began to shift more to digital content (and so my role was more crucial to the company), my value didn't rise proportionately because they were still thinking of this as a very ancillary role.
Of course you would think with the kind of tens of millions of dollar success Squad has gotten from KSP they would eventually recalibrate to realizing that their employees were a part of that.
midasmulligan
Member
...And if more employees valued their work more and moved on to more reasonably paid positions elsewhere, the company would lose its human capital and be forced --by the market--to improve wages to attract talent, or be forced to shut down.
Giemper
Neo Member
Easier said than done. In my experienced this is due to the fact that there are not many jobs for experienced programmers, as companies in Mexico prefer to pay lower wages to recently graduated students (and release them as they did in here after they're completed their task). It also depends a lot in the city they live in.
Also, moving to the US is not as easy either. Most companies prefer someone with an US Degree from a recognizable university, than a Mexican Degree from somewhere they never heard off (even if it is recognizable in Mexico).
They might realize that, but they would still likely perceive the going rate for such work as super low since they lucked out with the Kerbal devs taking the wages offered for 80 hour weeks...they might be nice and offer $3k going forward.
Thanks for the info! It really puts things in perspective. 4$*40hour*52weeks is 8320, more than three times than the 2400$ in the OP. Shouldn't Squad be paying minimum wage at least?
Never mind, it's 4$ daily, and not hourly. My bad.
Iva Demilcol
Member
Mexican here. Monthly income varies greatly depending of your area of expertise:
A graduate from Engineering would get half or less than half of that for their first job, while an Accountant would get half of that what an Engineer gets, and that's in Mexico City. You may get a little bit more if you have to move to another state.
Of course things get better as you gain experience, but it may take some time and sometimes you just have to accept a job with a pretty bad salary while searching for a better place.
I don't know how much a programmer or an artist can get though, but let me tell you something: Mexican employers love foreigners, if your family name is not common you'd get a better job than most of us. The scary thing is that even though the people involved with KSP are foreigners, the payment (and the treatment in general) was pretty bad... it's a pretty scummy company.
Gaming companies are pretty much fueled by young, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed coders who dream of working on the next big game, have few commitments (kids/spouses), and are willing to work long hours for below-average pay (coders at gaming companies tend to be paid worse than at business companies). When they get burned out by the long hours and the realization that they're not going to be the next Sid Meier, they bail/get laid off and replaced by another youngin'.
Clockwork5
Member
Wow, I paid a significant portion of his salary with my single KSP purchase.
Why would they agree to work for so little? This thing is being sold around the world and it is not particularly cheap. Why would a international worker work for a developing nation wage on a project that will be sold internationally?
I hope Activision and EA haven't seen this.
Why would they agree to work for so little? This thing is being sold around the world and it is not particularly cheap. Why would a international worker work for a developing nation wage on a project that will be sold internationally?
I hope Activision and EA haven't seen this.
Dangansona
Member
Absolutely agree. Yes you can make arguments that it's a total dumbass decision to work for them at that salary, but I think that misses the key takeaway from this. The studio heads must be raking in the dough.
Ghost Dad the Whip
Member
Any evidence like a payslip or w/e?
deletethis123
Banned
An entry level programming job at a decent place makes half that a month, so yeah that's low for programming jobs in Mexico.
Neospartan
Neo Member
That 4 USD figure is daily, not hourly.