Yep, all good points, and all reasons why Forza continues to be hamstrung by its own basic game framework. Anyone looking for a deeper experience beyond Forza's quick arcade-type fix has to look elsewhere, and that's a real shame. I imagine a lot of players either feel they've wasted their time during a race if they haven't finished in the top three and 'progressed', or simply abuse rewind until they do. The race structure in Forza can force you to focus on the destination at the expense of the journey. The races shouldn't simply be a means to an end - they should be rewarding in their own right no matter where you place. The player shouldn't be made to feel like they've failed if a top-three finish isn't achieved in every race.
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Forza Motorsport 6 |OT| Forza turns 10
- Thread starter frontieruk
- Start date
Yep, all good points, and all reasons why Forza continues to be hamstrung by its own basic game framework. Anyone looking for a deeper experience beyond Forza's quick arcade-type fix has to look elsewhere, and that's a real shame. I imagine a lot of players either feel they've wasted their time during a race if they haven't finished in the top three and 'progressed', or simply abuse rewind until they do. The race structure in Forza can force you to focus on the destination at the expense of the journey. The races shouldn't simply be a means to an end - they should be rewarding in their own right no matter where you place. The player shouldn't be made to feel like they've failed if a top-three finish isn't achieved in every race.
ResidentDante
Member
I wonder exactly why they have changed to this system. On one hand it's great for more casual players to think "yay, I didn't win the race, but at least it doesn't matter and I can progress with a bronze!!!"
On the other hand it completely shits on casuals if they place anything lower: "you think you're getting anything for that fourth place? fuck you and replay the race"
I don't consider myself as being great at racing games, but I play a fair amount of them and I find the drivatars on average, especially the top three cars to sometimes be a bitch to pass. I would think people playing racing games far less to be quite challenged to even get in the top three and thus have to replay a race.
I don't know if it's just more pronounced as I work my way into the higher powered cars or i'm just imagining things but it almost feels like the AI has gotten worse since early release. If it in facts learns from real players as the marketing spiel says, it would actually explain why the first turn is always a clusterfuck.
I wish they weren't so hung up on the cryptic marketing bs and just gave us more control over AI behavior as there are clearly other governing factors to how they race. I don't want my AI drivers to be based on xbox live randoms if they drive like dicks.
More AI complaints.
Now earlier in the thread I said the AI pits too often. During the Le Mans endurance race the problem is it does not pit often enough.
I don't know what kind of voodoo magic J.Davis and M.Rossi are doing to their fuel tanks but it sure seems to work. As a player you can only run 4 laps, trying to get a fifth lap out of the car is just going to result in an empty fuel tank at the Porsche curves and you have to coast your way back to the pits, obviously losing more time.
The AI runs 5 and even 6 laps no problem. This of course means that the AI manages to complete the race with 5 pit stops while I have to do 7. Pit stop delta is ~27 seconds so that means I somehow have to find 54 seconds over the AI on the track.
While I'm sure there are some people that can manage that against the Unbeatable AI I know I can't. Not with these horrible pre-tuned cars they give you with no way to change the setup.
Now earlier in the thread I said the AI pits too often. During the Le Mans endurance race the problem is it does not pit often enough.
I don't know what kind of voodoo magic J.Davis and M.Rossi are doing to their fuel tanks but it sure seems to work. As a player you can only run 4 laps, trying to get a fifth lap out of the car is just going to result in an empty fuel tank at the Porsche curves and you have to coast your way back to the pits, obviously losing more time.
The AI runs 5 and even 6 laps no problem. This of course means that the AI manages to complete the race with 5 pit stops while I have to do 7. Pit stop delta is ~27 seconds so that means I somehow have to find 54 seconds over the AI on the track.
While I'm sure there are some people that can manage that against the Unbeatable AI I know I can't. Not with these horrible pre-tuned cars they give you with no way to change the setup.
TylerDurden4321
Member
Good points and for Free Play they hold true for me too, but for the "start from almost last position"-career races, just like Danowat said, I'm happy for the rewind option.
The best reason why the rewind option is a great feature though is its helpfullness when learning a track without the racing line. I usually have the racing line turned on, but sometimes I want to do races without it. Then I do a few practice laps and figure out some good braking points based on markers in the environment. After a few laps it usually comes down to that one last corner that I can't get right or a combination of chicanes I want to try some other lines for and can't do because of under- or oversteer messing with my precision. In other games I have to do a whole lap to practice that one corner again, in Forza with the rewind on, I can practice it over and over again. I wish Turn 10 would improve on that even and give me a tool that would tell me how my current time of a track-section of my choice compares to the section time of my best lap in that session.
For racing they shouldn't get rid of the rewind but give players an incentive to just try it out without the rewind, maybe adapt their racing style and learn to enjoy the risk, the consequences and the feeling of reward. It could be done with more unique rewards(not just credits or cars, but someting you can't get any other way) or with showcases specially tailored for no-rewind+full-damage races.
I was just thinking the same thing when playing last night. iRacing actually has a great implementation of real-time split that I wish Forza had
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTmo9JGnvyg
GoldenCrow
Member
It would be interesting to see an additional progression tour based mode that starts off with most assists turned on and as you progress they get turned off. Something that I think racing games should incorporate is a drive school, not all players know how to drive or even the basics of racing, GT has the license tests but that is barrier to entry for some and doesn't really teach anything as they are just a series of small challenges, by giving those who don't know but want to engage with the genre a way of learning it broadens the market without hindering the game for those that have done it all before.
JackAubrey
Member
I wouldn't like that idea of turning assists off. Partly because I'm all for giving all users of any age and ability the choice and partly because there are plenty of race series that use them in the real world.
Edit: It's always worth saying that those of us here discussing the game are a vast minority of the audience for a game like this. Our more hardcore needs don't always match up with the way many people play and enjoy these games.
Terrible idea.
With that in mind are the first corner pileups intentional to entertain the casuals or just bad AI?
Snkfanatic
Banned
Just got my Xbox One last weekend and decided to buy Horizon 2 over this for now. I grabbed the demo though and finally tried it last night. Wow....I haven't played a mainline Forza since 4 so this is a big jump for me and I love it...a lot.
Really going to have to fight the urge to buy it right away, I love Horizon 2 and will stick with that for now though. Awesome to know that when I finish Horizon I have this waiting for me. Besides the Ford GT does anything else transfer over from the demo?
I need to go back to the demo a bit more though, I hope I can turn the assists off because the GT race was pretty much on rails lol.
Really going to have to fight the urge to buy it right away, I love Horizon 2 and will stick with that for now though. Awesome to know that when I finish Horizon I have this waiting for me. Besides the Ford GT does anything else transfer over from the demo?
I need to go back to the demo a bit more though, I hope I can turn the assists off because the GT race was pretty much on rails lol.
Only the GT I think, you can turn assists off in the races following the Rio race in the GT but you have to do the first race each time you start the career demo. There were also some rival challanges in there after you complete the career demo but not sure if these have been removed now that the game is out.
TylerDurden4321
Member
Yea, I want that, but with the option to compare just the section I just rewinded with my best lap in the session. That would be super helpful.
I love the GT license tests, but I agree, they shouldn't be gating your progress. And btw. they did teach me some things. For example how important it is to brake before entering a turn in a front wheel car to shift your weight to the driving wheels for example or perfecting when to apply throttle in a slalom.
If it were just for some challenges in this mentioned driving school or just for one category of showcase events, it would still be fair for everyone. There's gotta be a way to give casual people, who always drive with assists(maybe except steering/braking assist) on and tend to use AI-drivers as brakes, a good and fair incentive to try and see what kind of advantages and disadvantages come with assists and how they could improve their lap times and know more about racing.
Snkfanatic
Banned
It did have 3 races for me to do after the GT race. I think I will just not play it again then, keep the game fresh when I finally pick it up. I did get the notification that the GT would be delivered to me when I get the game though.
Really blown away by how great the game looks while still running 60 fps
It is checked once per account after completing the initial race with the Ford GT.
It checks FM3, FM4, Horizon, FM5, Horizon 2 for cars in your garage. Every game you have over 300 cars you get 5 mil credits.
I started out with 25 million and could just buy all the cars I wanted. Feels nice.
Sure I read it was a one time thing.
Damn wish I knew about this would have booted up the 360 and taken a walk down memory lane whilst spending the 5 mil i bank in each forza game for a rainy day.
http://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/fm6_loyalty_rewards
Next year when Horizon 3 hits just check the news every once in a while
ResidentDante
Member
There's an achievement for owning the Ford GT cover car, a car I got through playing the demo. Yet the achievement hasn't popped, any idea why? Do I need to own the orginal Ford GT?!
No. Check your news ingame. Turn 10 actually issued a message for this. Basically you have to buy the car to pop the achievement. You can then sell the car back immediately for half the asking price.
Because you need to actually buy one to get it to pop.
ResidentDante
Member
GoldenCrow
Member
Well I was thinking more of an optional beginner tour not really aimed at those who are experienced in racers, I wouldn't play it myself as I haven't used assists on a racing game since the PS2 days but you constantly hear the same questions when you go to games that don't provide assists as they have no ability when they are taken away and just turning them off without stabilisers for some reason is too much for some. Keep the main single player mode for people who know what they are doing or those that just want to play the way they want.
The racing line and rewind bothers me only because it is turned on by default and usually forget in the first race to turn it off as I play a lot of racers that don't use assists but that lasts a few seconds when you quit out, turn them off and never need to see it again. I'm just more interested in getting people to become competent as they make for a much better multiplayer environment, which is generally very poor in public lobbies.
Shortt Sirket
Member
Should get my console and game today
Shit dude, welcome back! Jesus, we thought you died. Lol
YES!!!! More competition the better.
On the topic of AI, I am interested how well the drivatar that other people see in their game reflects their actually driving style or traits, I'll be honest, personally, I think the whole system is bobbins..........
So, I would say I am probably an above average driver, who drives clean, and doesn't attack, block, shunt or partake in any other nasty behavior against the AI.
So, to those that have me as a friend on XBO, how does my drivatar represent itself?
So, I would say I am probably an above average driver, who drives clean, and doesn't attack, block, shunt or partake in any other nasty behavior against the AI.
So, to those that have me as a friend on XBO, how does my drivatar represent itself?
Snkfanatic
Banned
Oh wow...thanks for this!
Okay really strange (dumb?) questions for everyone. I haven't started playing yet and was going to wait until I could pickup the car pass and vip pack to start. Am I missing out on much or should I get started and not worry about missing anything (extra credits I guess)?
On a related topic I've been away from Forza after the 2nd game so my Forza rewards activity is minimal (just a bit on 5). I was wanting to get Horizon 2 eventually to play and after seeing the recent mention about the loyalty stuff I'm tempted to work on that. But then of course I tell myself if I was to do that I would miss out on all the fun in Forza 6 while everyone else is playing it and I'm guessing that the loss of the bonus credits wouldn't be a big deal after I get into the game. Thoughts?
On a related topic I've been away from Forza after the 2nd game so my Forza rewards activity is minimal (just a bit on 5). I was wanting to get Horizon 2 eventually to play and after seeing the recent mention about the loyalty stuff I'm tempted to work on that. But then of course I tell myself if I was to do that I would miss out on all the fun in Forza 6 while everyone else is playing it and I'm guessing that the loss of the bonus credits wouldn't be a big deal after I get into the game. Thoughts?
I don't think, in any Forza game, I've ever thought, damn, I wish I had more credits.
Okay, I'll get started on it tonight. Thanks for the reply too. At first I thought my question didn't make sense and I had to read that twice!
I've also added myself to the spreadsheet and will reference it if I get any invites so I can tell who the senders are. Looking forward to fun with the group!
Alcoholikaust
Member
game is $45 with free shipping via Cheapassgamer and Rakuten
Whoah! That didn't take long. Good price.
Alcoholikaust
Member
indeed- cancelling my GCU pickup plan (52 after taxes) and going this route- 7 bucks saved is 7 bucks towards something else
frontieruk
Member
There were 4 to do... you get showcase race after the first two races, the Mind blowing Indy cars.
I was just playing some of the track day shootouts.
Set it to unbeatable cause I was feeling good, jumped into an Aston Martin, vs a Nissan GTR and a corvette.
I couldn't keep up at all, and in my head I was like "man, I sure ain't as good as I thought it was"
Then at the end of the race, I glance at the PI's, the cars are all stock.
So the Vette had 719 PI, and i had 638 in my Aston.
... Oh.
I jumped into the vette and could toy with the other cars and still win.
So what I learned about that series is that there is a car that is objectively the best, pick it and win, don't and lose.
Set it to unbeatable cause I was feeling good, jumped into an Aston Martin, vs a Nissan GTR and a corvette.
I couldn't keep up at all, and in my head I was like "man, I sure ain't as good as I thought it was"
Then at the end of the race, I glance at the PI's, the cars are all stock.
So the Vette had 719 PI, and i had 638 in my Aston.
... Oh.
I jumped into the vette and could toy with the other cars and still win.
So what I learned about that series is that there is a car that is objectively the best, pick it and win, don't and lose.
Snkfanatic
Banned
Ahhhhhh....so tempting. Must resist.....
Never ordered from them before. Trustworthy site?
SkinnerSw33t
Member
I've placed a couple of <$50 orders with Rakuten and never had a problem.
I did use PayPal. They used to have a bad reputation for handling credit card data in an insecure manner. Maybe they've overcome that, but I'd never give them my information directly.
Damn.
I have like 30mil in FH2 just from races, hardly ever spent it. I did win 1mil twice on the spin and the Veyron, and I'm only level 6.
GHG
Member
I managed to win that one with the GTR.
The Vette was all over my arse the whole race however but I managed to hold on.
Yeah it's much closer to the Vette PI wise, it's like 702 vs 719, where as the Aston was down at 638.
I tried the GTR too a couple of times as an experiment, and I could kind of beat the Vette, But my tactic was mostly consisting of using my AWD to get ahead of the Vette at launch and then blocking him, if I let him pass, he was gone.
If I just lap in those cars, I'm several seconds faster in the Vette, so with equally skilled drivers, I don't think there is a contest, but I'm terrible in AWD so that probably plays in a bit as well.
i think it's moving along slightly faster than average for a forza OT actually.
TylerDurden4321
Member
Yea, maybe if we have a discussion about why it's so empty, it will fill up much faster. Good idea
No, but seriously, this thread is probably fine. Or do you have another theory about it?
+410.000 people have played the first mandatory race and the game was launched last friday in Europe, if you're interested in that statistic.
frontieruk
Member
When you quoted the post the link was hidden in an email tag, quote this post and have a look at what your quoting for email
What's there to discuss? The finer points of car models get covered in the photo... No wait the next gen face off thread of driveclub woooo!
Photos are in the photo thread this is basically a thread on community watch as Forza tends to be front heavy until the bundle packages for the holidays.
Edit...
Also a quick thank you to everyone who has filled out the survey so far.
Someone really hates Bathurst and the Nordschleife choosing not to rank them at all!
Spa, Brands Hatch and Watkins Glen are top of the charts
Friday / Saturday / Sunday could be only be spilt with a cigarette paper its that close.
And most people tend to favour the 17 - 19 hrs / 21 - 23 hrs time window.
Though 08 - 10 hrs / 12 - 14 hrs is a very close second.
Shortt Sirket
Member
Yeah, I tried the first Track Day one with the Bug and Mini and such.
I didn't pick the Mini which bascially made it impossible. That car is crazy OP.
frontieruk
Member
When you quoted the post the link was hidden in an email tag, quote this post and have a look at what your quoting for email
What's there to discuss? The finer points of car models get covered in the photo... No wait the next gen face off thread of driveclub woooo!
Photos are in the photo thread this is basically a thread on community watch as Forza tends to be front heavy until the bundle packages for the holidays.
Edit...
Also a quick thank you to everyone who has filled out the survey so far.
Someone really hates Bathurst and the Nordschleife choosing not to rank them at all!
Spa, Brands Hatch and Watkins Glen are top of the charts
Friday / Saturday / Sunday could be only be spilt with a cigarette paper its that close.
And most people tend to favour the 17 - 19 hrs / 21 - 23 hrs time window.
Though 08 - 10 hrs / 12 - 14 hrs is a very close second.
Quoted for a new page.