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Spoiler

Driveclub

the better racer confirmed, time to bail guys... /s

Though it's a dick thing to do I think we can all agree we don't won't the super stop grass back from previous versions.

I would much rather have one of those penalties than the alternative. If I want to win a race I'm going to have to learn all of the shortcuts now. I can understand that in something like Horizon, but in a track based racing game it stinks.

 

[Gestault]

I've noticed some of the highly skilled drivatar profiles spinning out at key points on "Above Average," which feels organic at the time (since I know I pretty consistently spin out somewhere in the last lap on longer races), but I'd bet it's a balancing mechanic for AI cars that are supposed to act as "middle of the field" cars relative to the player.

The further I get into career (I'm not very far), the more I'm thinking about checking the "limit aggression" box, but I still like the way it is now.

 

[danowat]

I'm still curious as too just how much, and of what, the drivatars actually take from the person who is "training" it.

I would like some indepth tech info regarding it, but I would imagine it's kept under wraps, there was some info about a previous version I seem to remember.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drivatar/forza.aspx

Was actually info about FM1 though..........

 

[vac]

Interested in picking this up but I have a question about the AI. I hate how they all basically just ram you. Sure after the first lap you're passed the majority of them but it's still pretty annoying.

I know there's a new option to make them less aggressive, I was just wondering how well this actually works? I prefer more clean racing than the barge your way to the front method.

I want to be challenged by good drivers blocking over takes and the racing line etc, not used as a battering ram!

 

[danowat]

Less ramming, yes, but there is still some ramming.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I know there's a new option to make them less aggressive, I was just wondering how well this actually works? I prefer more clean racing than the barge your way to the front method.

I want to be challenged by good drivers blocking over takes and the racing line etc, not used as a battering ram!

Even without "limit aggression" they race really clean and good on high difficulties. Cleaner than in Project CARS, not as clean as in GT6 (but way more interesting and realistic than in GT6). Everything over 35/50 difficulty has been really fair for me, if you can forgive them the first 2 corners.

and a goodie:

Spoiler

Sorry, Opel!

 

[TheAdmiester]

God damn, that Next Gen thread is a total cesspit now. Haven't seen a reasonable post in ages.

 

[T.O.P]

Third attempt at the 300 it's happening tonight

Praying the game gods

 

[danowat]

God damn, that Next Gen thread is a total cesspit now. Haven't seen a reasonable post in ages.

The weirdest thing about it all, is that I think that most people would agree that DC looks better.

 

[TheAdmiester]

The weirdest thing about it all, is that I think that most people would agree that DC looks better.

I fully agree that Driveclub looks better by a decent margin. The problem with that thread is that it's graphics only. Under the hood, Forza is way more advanced than DC (and way more fun for me but that's another topic for another day), but stating so gets you blasted because graphics are the most important part of a game, obviously.

 

[danowat]

I fully agree that Driveclub looks better by a decent margin. The problem with that thread is that it's graphics only. Under the hood, Forza is way more advanced than DC (and way more fun for me but that's another topic for another day), but stating so gets you blasted because graphics are the most important part of a game, obviously.

You're preaching to the choir fella

 

[Jamesways]

That thread is so entertaining. Comparing consoles err games is super serious.

Personally, I think almost all of these next gen offerings look great. Milestone is a bit behind yet, but that's nothing new. AC is going to look great too.

At this point it really comes down to personal preference, in physics or graphics.

 

[nib95]

I fully agree that Driveclub looks better by a decent margin. The problem with that thread is that it's graphics only. Under the hood, Forza is way more advanced than DC (and way more fun for me but that's another topic for another day), but stating so gets you blasted because graphics are the most important part of a game, obviously.

That's not why you get questioned for saying that, it's because under the hood can mean a massive number of different things. I doubt the kinds of physics you're thinking of are necessarily inherently taxing, that's why you have far older games with more complex physics like rFactor and iRacing, being able to run well on much worse hardware. Under the hood in this instance could refer to physics, to the frame rate, to the lighting, graphics, clouds, global illumination, dynamic weather or time of day, amount of geometry and any number of things. That's why the "under the hood" or "way more advanced" descriptors don't really make sense, and are completely up to interpretation.

In any case, why are you dragging that discussion here? That thread exists for a reason.

 

[The Jackdog]

i like drive club a lot, but i enjoy playing forza a lot more

 

[bishbosh]

I fully agree that Driveclub looks better by a decent margin. The problem with that thread is that it's graphics only. Under the hood, Forza is way more advanced than DC (and way more fun for me but that's another topic for another day), but stating so gets you blasted because graphics are the most important part of a game, obviously.

I mentioned this before but if DriveClub ran at a locked 60fps would it look that good? I suspect not - saying that I hope to pick up a PS4 at Christmas so will look forward to giving DC a spin

 

[TheAdmiester]

In any case, why are you dragging that discussion here? That thread exists for a reason.

Because that thread is absolute shit now. People see the title and constantly make drive-by posts, I even mentioned in that thread that you can't make it a single page without "hover car" or "cartoony" mentioned at least once.

This thread is smaller and has a less general title, so it's less likely that people are just going to click on it and shitpost. It might be more biased because we're all assumedly Forza fans, but we all acknowledge that DC looks better and the discussion in here is far more level-headed.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

[...]that's why you have far older games with more complex physics like rFactor and iRacing, being able to run well on much worse hardware.[...]

If you look at benchmarks how hard the CPU is bottlenecking the framerate in PCARS and consider that SMD tried to go to a less CPU intensive tyre model for Wii U and also that the AI drivers already run on more simplistic physics, I'd say that good physics are pretty CPU demanding, where consoles are lacking even compared to really old PC hardware.

Of course I don't know, but thinking about how much research Turn 10 put into tyres, that's something the rFactor guys don't have the money for, but their tyre-model is still more sophisticated(well at least more "complex") than Forza's current model since 2011 or so. In my opinion Turn 10 would gladly make their physics as complex as the pyhsics in iRacing and rFactor 2, but the hardware doesn't allow them to, especially since they also have to deliver graphics as a big part of their selling point.

I doubt that Driveclubs physics are very hardware demanding compared to Forza's (I'd say they're not even hardware demanding compared to GT) and it's easier for them to make sure their graphics don't get choked by CPU-time.

^^ I would have dropped that in the other thread, but I don't really wanna go there and it was more about physics than graphics anyway.

 

[vac]

Even without "limit aggression" they race really clean and good on high difficulties. Cleaner than in Project CARS, not as clean as in GT6 (but way more interesting and realistic than in GT6). Everything over 35/50 difficulty has been really fair for me, if you can forgive them the first 2 corners.

Less ramming, yes, but there is still some ramming.

Okay, thanks!

 

[GHG]

Interested in picking this up but I have a question about the AI. I hate how they all basically just ram you. Sure after the first lap you're passed the majority of them but it's still pretty annoying.

I know there's a new option to make them less aggressive, I was just wondering how well this actually works? I prefer more clean racing than the barge your way to the front method.

I want to be challenged by good drivers blocking over takes and the racing line etc, not used as a battering ram!

Use limit aggression. It's a must if you drive with sim damage on. If not it's the same old shit and is borderline unplayable (due to the fact that your car will get recked due to no fault of your own) in most situations, even on the higher difficulties.

Even without "limit aggression" they race really clean and good on high difficulties. Cleaner than in Project CARS, not as clean as in GT6 (but way more interesting and realistic than in GT6). Everything over 35/50 difficulty has been really fair for me, if you can forgive them the first 2 corners.

and a goodie:

Spoiler

Sorry, Opel!

Not true at all from my experience. The higher difficulty drivatars are better but unless you use limit aggression they still have a tendency to pile up on certain tight corners and ignore the fact that you are even there.

 

[witness]

I am really enjoying the free play mode, I love that you get full leveling and credits progression through it. I also had my first chance to drive an endurance prototype. I did the showcase for spa at night in the audi and I just loved it. It sounds so unique and is a joy to drive. Hope we hear some things T10 plans to address and here about the DLC for next month.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Not true at all from my experience. The higher difficulty drivatars are better but unless you use limit aggression they still have a tendency to pile up on certain tight corners and ignore the fact that you are even there.

They drive considerably worse on new tracks(and old tracks at night or in the rain). I've only had aggressive overtaking behavior like braking late and trying to take the inside of a corner that I was intending to use the apex of as well while coming from outside, which leads to crashes ...but that's natural in racing.
On "limit aggression" the AI will drive off into the grass if they see that I want to go back onto the ideal line on a straight after half of an overtake. Having the AI pussy-out on my bad and overly optimistic tries at overtaking feels like cheating, that's why I don't limit the aggression. Personally I'd rather use a rewind because that feels less like cheating to me since my bad overtaking would just be punished again in the rewound section.

 

[SkinnerSw33t]

I race career with sim damage most of the time, don't usually play on Unbeatable and don't agree at all that it's unplayable.

I've had quite the good time with sim damage and no rewind. Bathurst and Long Beach are two tracks where I do (at times depending on the vehicles) turn off damage or turn on rewind.

 

[kazinova]

It's the dogmatic adherence to still images as the only determinant of "graphical superiority" that irks me in the Next-Gen Comparison thread.

Even accounting for the framerate difference Driveclub still looks better but discounting the amount of frames being rendering as part of the overall graphics seems strange. Especially the fact that: it's the same group of people jizzing over Driveclub that couldn't shut the fuck up about 1080p60 as the one true resolution and framerate.

So, 60fps mattered before, but now it's not important.

 

[Peterpan]

When drivatars work well, they amazing. They prone to errors like human players, they don't drive on lines like drones, which I like. Was just playing Laguna Seca. I just passed the first placed drivatar towards the end, here comes the last turn, he clearly wants to pass me before the race ends. He accelerates past me, but clearly he breaked way too late, into the sand with him, he ends up third.

 

[T.O.P]

So, 60fps mattered before, but now it's not important.

Until the next GT

 

[Devildoll]

I'm still curious as too just how much, and of what, the drivatars actually take from the person who is "training" it.
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drivatar/forza.aspx

Was actually info about FM1 though..........

If you go to main menu -> "options" and then -> "my drivatar"
You can see all your stats that it has collected, overall and per track.

I don't know if that's all the stuff they generate your drivatar from, or if there are other parameters too.
I've already been in 609 collisions apparently.

 

[shandy706]

Anyone else unlock that 20% better braking and +5% Horse Power mod?

LOL

Poor AI...I can tear into the corners even harder, brake, and out accelerate all of them. Hilarious mod. I bet there are better ones out there maybe.

This one is listed as "Super Rare".

It bumps the car I'm running up to like 790hp while the AI is stuck around 750hp. heheh

 

[frontieruk]

If you go to main menu -> "options" and then -> "my drivatar"
You can see all your stats that it has collected, overall and per track.

I don't know if that's all the stuff they generate your drivatar from, or if there are other parameters too.
I've already been in 609 collisions apparently.

600 of them racing with GAF...

The white paper danowat links to basically outlines how drivatars work now, except back then you trained it on an empty track, now it trains while you race, so they probably added risk / reward variables to track so they can gauge how often you'll dive up the inside and how successful you are. Which is something new

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I'm still curious as too just how much, and of what, the drivatars actually take from the person who is "training" it.

I would like some indepth tech info regarding it, but I would imagine it's kept under wraps, there was some info about a previous version I seem to remember.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drivatar/forza.aspx

Was actually info about FM1 though..........

I found a 2007 paper from one of the designers of the Drivatar AI:
http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/R.DeNardi/Togelius2007Computational.pdf

"The track, as pictured in figure 7, has two long straight
sections where the player can drive really fast (or choose not to), a long smooth curve, and a sequence of nasty sharp turns. Along the track are 30 waypoints, and when a human player drives the track, the way he passes each waypoint is recorded. What is recorded is the speed of the car when the waypoint is passed, and the orthogonal deviation from the path between the waypoints, i.e. how far to the left or right of the waypoint the car passed. This matrix of two times 30 values constitutes the raw data for the player model.
The actual player model is constructed using the Cascading Elitism
algorithm, starting from a general controller and evolving it on the test track. Three fitness functions are used, based on minimising[...]"

I assume the system is way more advanced in Forza 6 now, but the roots seem to be self-evolving neural networks (give the ai only the information a player would have about his surrounding, give him a try at the track, throw away the shitty driving patterns that occured in the AI trials, give the best patterns another try, later move to a slightly different task) interwoven with data on the lines ("speed" and "deviation from the path") the real world counterpart player takes.

I see a lot of Drivatars taking turn 2 in Silverstone GP too fast,

then going wide and brake too late to take turn 3 ideally. It's very human-like and the braking-markers of Forza's ideal line for those turns go red a little late imo, which is where the actual players learned that behavior. That would substantiate the argument for drivatars actually taking the lines of the players they are modeled after.

 

[Branson]

I really want an Xbox One for this. The blue console looks so good.

 

[Tayaya]

I'm sure this has been answered but I cant find it anywhere. Just occasionally the frame rate seem to stutter for a fraction of a second. It seems random and it's not confined to a particular track. Could this be due to the console updating in the background? Really weird as I'm rubbish as distinguishing frame rates unless they grind to a halt. Suppose that shows how smooth this game is.

I've had this happen too, and it's almost followed up by a pop up that reads "X is ready to launch" or "Y is finished downloading."

I just got my Xbox One this past weekend, so there have been a lot of items downloadin'! I am just using the internal 1TB drive.

 

[Outrun]

Playing Forza 5 as much as I have, I got to say, if you want fair racing then create a private lobby and play with those of like mind.

The public hopper is a jungle where all exploits will be utilized to the max.

 

[Tayaya]

I really want an Xbox One for this. The blue console looks so good.

That's the one I got. It makes race car noises when you power it on and off, if you haven't been sold on it already.

 

[Branson]

That's the one I got. It makes race car noises when you power it on and off, if you haven't been sold on it already.

Welp.

 

[terrible]

With the right tunes I'm starting to find 540 DOR with sensitivity 2 (mode+right paddle shifter, 2 green lights) with no assists and sim steering to be the way to go on my Thrustmaster TX. I'm not at all what you'd call fast but I've been putting together some pretty fun clean races consistently with those settings at least.

I got those settings from someone's post on the official forums. It was also suggested by someone to run with rumble/vibration set to 25 but I'm not sure that's been a factor.

It's not perfect but it's an improvement for me.

----

I have an unrelated whiny complaint. Why can we only save like 5-10 replays again? Is the Xbone really that restrictive when it comes to save files? I should only be limited by my hard drive space. I get that shared replays should be limited but local ones shouldn't. The game has been out like a week and I already have to delete replays to make room for new ones. Lame.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

With the right tunes I'm starting to find 540 DOR with sensitivity 2 (mode+right paddle shifter, 2 green lights) with no assists and sim steering to be the way to go on my Thrustmaster TX. I'm not at all what you'd call fast but I've been putting together some pretty fun clean races consistently with those settings at least.

I got those settings from someone's post on the official forums. It was also suggested by someone to run with rumble/vibration set to 25 but I'm not sure that's been a factor.

It's not perfect but it's an improvement for me.

Heh, I did the same a few days ago. It's really an improvement. I use "normal steering" at the moment because the stiffer cars with shorter wheelbase are already unrealistically twitchy with the new tyre model and the spin momentum for catching the car is a little overdone on sim-steering in Forza. Not saying that "normal" is more realistic than "sim" steering, but it's more fun for me and the tank-slapping is more realistic and fairer in PCARS and GT6 as well on "sim steering" my opinion.

 

[Neo 007]

As far as replays,GT6 is far better.All racing games should have Real TV camera style angles on replays...just sayin.

 

[NullPointer]

Spa at night is incredible.

Tried this last night. Love the track but holy hell at the jaggies in the better lit areas.

 

[The_D]

Even without "limit aggression" they race really clean and good on high difficulties. Cleaner than in Project CARS, not as clean as in GT6 (but way more interesting and realistic than in GT6).

That's not at all my experience. I can have have very very close racing with Project Cars AI and they are clean, and when they make mistakes it's in a realistic place & situation. Forza drivatars are inconsistent, basically complete crap in corners, either hitting me from behind or braking constantly in the middle/exit of corners.

re: TX settings - I've been trying sensitivity 3 & DOR 360 also. I'm not happy with it. So many cars have no gip, and spin out at the slightest steering or throttle input.

 

[H3rTz DoNuT]

That's not at all my experience. I can have have very very close racing with Project Cars AI and they are clean, and when they make mistakes it's in a realistic place & situation. Forza drivatars are inconsistent, basically complete crap in corners, either hitting me from behind or braking constantly in the middle/exit of corners.

Yep, I hate drivatars, I have so much better and cleaner races with AI in showcase events than I have with drivatars on Pro with limited agression, it's just a pure carnage. I wish there was an option to choose either drivatars or AI for single player.

The other thing that bothers me a lot is the drivatars paintjobs. I can either turn it on or off and that's ok with the road cars but since I race mostly modern GT cars if I choose to turn it off I get the cars painted only with solid colors and if I choose to turn it on I get 23 cars painted in some horrible designs, why there is no option to choose default paintjobs for race cars? i don't want to race GT cars painted in solid colors nor do I want to race gold, camo or wooden GT cars.

 

[terrible]

Heh, I did the same a few days ago. It's really an improvement. I use "normal steering" at the moment because the stiffer cars with shorter wheelbase are already unrealistically twitchy with the new tyre model and the spin momentum for catching the car is a little overdone on sim-steering in Forza. Not saying that "normal" is more realistic than "sim" steering, but it's more fun for me and the tank-slapping is more realistic and fairer in PCARS and GT6 as well on "sim steering" my opinion.

I was using normal steering until I switched to 540 DOR w/ 2 sensitivity. The normal steering handles more like I've come to expect from other sims but the FFB feels worse to me. I'll probably switch back and forth depending on how forgiving some cars are, we'll see. I haven't had to do that yet.

 

[frontieruk]

Just a quick reminder that if you plan to participate in the GAF racing league and haven't done so we've currently got a survey running which we're going to use to help plan the events.

I'm leaving it open till Monday morning 7am UTC+1.

Many thanks from Zorbs and myself for those who have already taken the time to complete it, we've for a pretty good picture of what ForzaGAF enjoys.

If you haven't already filled out the survey and would like a say in our plans please quote this post to find the survey link hidden in the email tags.

 

[H3rTz DoNuT]

Speaking of Drivatars, Pro difficulty, those two were there for three laps now hitting that wall lol

 

[psychotron]

I'm weak. Just purchased the deluxe edition even though my backlog is monstrous right now. I still need to finish Witcher 3, MGSV, Until Dawn, Gears Ultimate, Mad Max, Life is Strange, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, Dishonored Remastered, DMC 4 SE....and a few others.

 

[frontieruk]

I'm weak. Just purchased the deluxe edition even though my backlog is monstrous right now. I still need to finish Witcher 3, MGSV, Until Dawn, Gears Ultimate, Mad Max, Life is Strange, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, Dishonored Remastered, DMC 4 SE....and a few others.

I've given up listing my collection....

 

[SkinnerSw33t]

Speaking of Drivatars, Pro difficulty, those two were there for three laps now hitting that wall lol

I think there's a bug with Silverstone because the Drivatars do it all the time on that track but don't have the same problem elsewhere.

 

[JackAubrey]

I was using normal steering until I switched to 540 DOR w/ 2 sensitivity. The normal steering handles more like I've come to expect from other sims but the FFB feels worse to me. I'll probably switch back and forth depending on how forgiving some cars are, we'll see. I haven't had to do that yet.

After years using sim steering (on a pad) I've switched to normal. In FM6 I've found myself fishtailing wildly then losing the car completely and it's more of an issue with the controller sensitivity than the cars alone.

I did a comparison racing GT cars on Spa in Pcars (PS4) and FM6. With Pcars set to "real" assists the closest FM6 felt to it was with ABS, TCS, STM and normal steering. Pcars still more forgiving, in the GT cars you can slam on throttle or brakes 100% without much worry of disaster. I never use STM in Forza normally, but do use ABs/TCS for modern cars that use them for racing.

I'm not making a point about anything, just waffling as I don't think my wife would be interested in this information.

 

[theWB27]

I've played every forza released and one very minor gripe I always had with them were the replay cameras (I almost always look at my races)...5 was really. So far they've definitely stepped their game up.

 

[oneida]

FYI target has the Hori wheel on clearance 70% off, just got one for $27

it's not a great wheel but it's $27

 

[FStop7]

To anyone with the VIP pack: Does the 458 Speciale sound or feel any different than the regular 458?