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[mr2mike]

I did the math, in a racer, at a slothful 160 kph (100 mph), at 30 fps you cover 1.48 meters (4.38 feet) per frame.

at a speeds wich are more normal in a racing game application, say 280 ish kph (174 mph), you end up covering 2.6 meters (8 and a half feet) per frame.

while that wouldn't be too objectionable for an arcade racer, for a game that supposedly has all the precise high end physics simulations of Forza, it's unacceptable. a game built on precision, shouldn't have to make due with only rough approximations like that.

 

[FightyF]

It's not enough to affect you at all, and 1/30th of a second is a split second. Split 30 times.

Look at it like this... theres 30 frames in one second. Think about a racing game and how much ground you cover in one second.... now divide that by 30. So each frame is a snapshot and between each frame you travel 6 inches... or maybe even a yard. I don't know exactly. It depends on how fast you are going. 60 fps would be half the distance between frames. But between those frames the Xbox is still allowing you input to the control of the games six more times.

Your brain knows what is happening between frames 4 and 5 because it has previous frames to reference so it can make an informed decision as to how to control the vehicle. We're talking about fractions of a second here. It's not like you can do a 360 in between frames.

Assuming it is 1/30th (progressive scan)...that would mean if you were travelling 200km/h, you'd travel 2m between frames. And then you have to factor in your reaction time. It's not a huge difference, but there is one, that's quite noticable.

 

[DopeyFish]

I did the math, in a racer, at a slothful 160 kph (100 mph), at 30 fps you cover 1.48 meters (4.38 feet) per frame.

at a speeds wich are more normal in a racing game application, say 280 ish kph (174 mph), you end up covering 2.6 meters (8 and a half feet) per frame.

while that wouldn't be too objectionable for an arcade racer, for a game that supposedly has all the precise high end physics simulations of Forza, it's unacceptable. a game built on precision, shouldn't have to make due with only rough approximations like that.

the whole thing is though, when you're going that speed anyways, most of the best responses will be about 0.2-0.3 response times to any situation, so... going at 200 kph at 30 fps (10 frames response time or 20 frames response time) just think of it like that. In any instance it would take for you to react to a tight crash will still be about 10 frames when it happens, to when you move your fingers to react to it happening.

You're still going to blow 20 metres in reaction time anyways, 30 or 60 fps. It does not matter. Unacceptable? Not even close.

 

[mr2mike]

it's not even about reaction time, it's about perception.

Say you drive from the bumpercam, plotting a line through an apex that you can only see coming as a few red and white pixel on the ground, that diffference in movement perception is going to be worth a lot, like overshooting that apex by 2 meters (a frame) and scraping the wall when coming out, or cutting in too fast and nipping the inside wall.

there is a lot of talk about stuttering and such, but the that's not even the meat of the debate, the real deal is that 30 fps for a high speed, high precision racer, is not enough to communicate fast and precise movements to the driver.

 

[DopeyFish]

having played several games at 30 fps, perception is not a problem.

 

[jedimike]

there is a lot of talk about stuttering and such, but the that's not even the meat of the debate, the real deal is that 30 fps for a high speed, high precision racer, is not enough to communicate fast and precise movements to the driver.

I think you missed the part about input from your controller will be at 180fps.

 

[mr2mike]

I didn't miss it, but controller input doesn't really help the TV convey motion to you now does it?

"perception is not a problem."

I feel that it is.

 

[gtmax]

I don't think reaction time has much to do with it either. I don't remember having a problem with 30fps racer last gen. Still though, 60fps bringsa smoothness that isn't foundon 30fps games. AT this stage in this gen, no racer should have been watered down to 30fps. PGR2's controls put the game off for me, though i don't know if it was that 'bug' or the frames.

Be that as it may, dev's excuse is bullshit. They're sacrificing frames because M$ wants their racers to look better than GT3/4, that's the only reason. Too bad M$ dosn't know shit about games or gamers.

I'll wait until this one's in the bargain bin for ten bucks. what a waste of the Ferrari license.

 

[Lazy8s]

Any game not reducing the visual inconsistency that comes from displaying high-speed motion on a videogame screen with both 60 fps and progressive scan is not fully measuring up from a visual standpoint.

 

[DopeyFish]

any game not running at 120 fps the ability to completely emulate adrenaline rush and and has a racing wheel with full 900° wheel rotation with lock with 4096 points of turning radius... absolutely sucks.

 

[Redbeard]

Be that as it may, dev's excuse is bullshit. They're sacrificing frames because M$ wants their racers to look better than GT3/4, that's the only reason. Too bad M$ dosn't know shit about games or gamers.

I'll wait until this one's in the bargain bin for ten bucks. what a waste of the Ferrari license.

Did you even read the response? The producer said it wasn't just visuals, but physics that made 60fps impossible.

The amount of overreaction regarding framerate is simply astonishing. It's a bargain bin title now? Give me a fucking break.

 

[Lazy8s]

DopeyFish:

and has a racing wheel with full 900° wheel rotation with lock with 4096 points of turning radius

That brings up a point about interface: the force feedback from any of these console racing wheels pales in comparison to the experience a deluxe cabinet delivers in the arcades. Rather just pop fifty cents a play and do it right.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

Well I'm getting it.

Forza, Need for Speed Underground 2, GT4, and Burnout 3 are all must buys for me this year. Great year to be a racing fan. I'll probably rent Outrun 2 as well.

I'll let you guys worry about the FPS debate.

 

[isamu]

Well I'm getting it.

Forza, Need for Speed Underground 2, GT4, and Burnout 3 are all must buys for me this year. Great year to be a racing fan. I'll probably rent Outrun 2 as well.

I'll let you guys worry about the FPS debate.

just outta curiousity, why is NFSU a higher priority for you than OR2? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

[PanopticBlue]

Are they actually making a FF wheel for this game? Funny how they go on about how they have to sacrifice the framerate for physics when there isn't even a proper FF wheel for xbox. If they aren't making one, then the devs comment about physics is completely bunk..cause I dont care how advanced the physics are, without a true FF wheel it wont matter. All the advanced physics in the world will go to waste on the control pad.

The goal should have been 60 fps from the start of development. Not this "oh well now we have these advanced physics and graphics, there's no way to get 60 fps now" bullshit. You start from the ground up with a goal, if PS2 can boast the physics of GT4 and look as good as it does at an unflinching 60 fps, there is absolutely no excuse for Forza. End of discussion.

 

[isamu]

Are they actually making a FF wheel for this game? Funny how they go on about how they have to sacrifice the framerate for physics when there isn't even a proper FF wheel for xbox. If they aren't making one, then the devs comment about physics is completely bunk..cause I dont care how advanced the physics are, without a true FF wheel it wont matter. All the advanced physics in the world will go to waste on the control pad.

The goal should have been 60 fps from the start of development. Not this "oh well now we have these advanced physics and graphics, there's no way to get 60 fps now" bullshit. You start from the ground up with a goal, if PS2 can boast the physics of GT4 and look as good as it does at an unflinching 60 fps, there is absolutely no excuse for Forza. End of discussion.

heh, I couldnt agree more. Microsoft is a joke in my eyes. they tout this and that about how realistic this game is going to be, yet they don't even put in the effort to develop a much superior method of controlling the vehicle...a true force feedback wheel.

I bow in loyalty to Polyphony...I **WILL** BUY YOUR GAME ON THE VERY DAY OF RELEASE!

 

[Ranger X]

What makes you guys real good racers is when you can deal with the context to perform. With real cars you need to ajust your reflexes and ways to drive to get the milliseconds you need to get the pole position.
Same shit when you need to drive in 30 fps instead of 60 fps in a racing game. It's just the context around you that changes. I can adapt and will react perfectly in Forza just as in GT4. This whole "30 fps is the end of the world" agony is very lame and fucking useless.

 

[seismologist]

It's not the end of the world. Just a downer because the game looks so good (But I guess that's the tradeoff).


There's so many racers nowadays, and this one's running at 30fps. It's really gonna have to be phenominal to compete.

 

[Suikoguy]

It's not the end of the world. Just a downer because the game looks so good (But I guess that's the tradeoff).


There's so many racers nowadays, and this one's running at 30fps. It's really gonna have to be phenominal to compete.

IAWTP, and leave this thread for good
That pretty much sums it up for me

 

[SolidSnakex]

What makes you guys real good racers is when you can deal with the context to perform. With real cars you need to ajust your reflexes and ways to drive to get the milliseconds you need to get the pole position.
Same shit when you need to drive in 30 fps instead of 60 fps in a racing game. It's just the context around you that changes. I can adapt and will react perfectly in Forza just as in GT4. This whole "30 fps is the end of the world" agony is very lame and fucking useless.

No ones saying it's the end of the world. What you've got to consider is that people have been spoiled with 60fps racers. Almost every racer this gen, including DC racers, run at 60fps. It really makes no sense to have a 30fps, it kinda makes it seeems like a developers priorities are out of whack, considering how important 60fps is to alot of gamers. Especially the hardcore race fans.

I can still enjoy a 30fps, but as Gek has said, they really are harder on the eyes which makes them somewhat annoying to play.

 

[Ranger X]

No ones saying it's the end of the world. What you've got to consider is that people have been spoiled with 60fps racers. Almost every racer this gen, including DC racers, run at 60fps. It really makes no sense to have a 30fps, it kinda makes it seeems like a developers priorities are out of whack, considering how important 60fps is to alot of gamers. Especially the hardcore race fans.

I can still enjoy a 30fps, but as Gek has said, they really are harder on the eyes which makes them somewhat annoying to play.

For the hardcore racing genre fan of this forum (except me) i suppose you're right.
What's more, many 60 fps racers controls like shit and it's shit all over the gameplay ten times more than something like 30 fps VS 60 fps. PGR2 imo is still one of the best racer out there and so will be both Forza and GT4. You should focus somewhere else you hardcores.

I wonder why do i call you hardcores? I'm even more racing hardcore than you, i will enjoy AND perform greatly in BOTH GT4 and Forza and i will NOT complain from framerate issues

 

[SolidSnakex]

That's good if the framerate doesn't bother you. But as evidence by this thread, it does bother alot of people. It doesn't make their complaints any less relevant because it doesn't bother someone else.

 

[Ranger X]

Sure. But maybe some gamers really are spoiled. I mean, we all have to look at ourselves sometimes. Some will miss a game that is almost sure to be a fucking great one at the detriment of a very so-so and discutable argument nonetheless.