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FP.com: "Why Is Pakistan Such a Mess? Blame India."

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Here is an interesting article on the India-Pakistan conflict on their 69th anniversaries of independence.

I think this article is an interesting revisionist piece on why one nation is becoming a world power while the other in its opinion was "doomed" from the beginning.
Some historians may even claim that Muhammad Ali Jinnah, used the Pakistan movement to fight for greater decentralization of government power in a united India rather than actually splitting the country.

kQDcf9m.jpg

Why Is Pakistan Such a Mess? Blame India.
After a year in office, Modi’s gestures of conciliation toward Islamabad have gone nowhere. That’s because India’s founding fathers set Pakistan up to fail.
BY NISID HAJARIMAY 26, 2015
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/26/pakistan-india-independence-gandhi/

But however exaggerated Pakistan’s fears may be now, Indian leaders bear great responsibility for creating them in the first place. Their resistance to the very idea of Pakistan made the 1947 partition of the subcontinent far bitterer than it needed to be. Within hours of independence, huge sectarian massacres had broken out on both sides of the border; anywhere from 200,000 to a million people would ultimately lose their lives in the slaughter. Pakistan reeled under a tidal wave of refugees, its economy and its government paralyzed and half-formed. Out of that crucible emerged a not-unreasonable conviction that larger, more powerful India hoped to strangle the infant Pakistan in its cradle — an anxiety that Pakistan, as the perpetually weaker party, has never entirely been able to shake.
...
Jinnah also correctly predicted that a too-weak Pakistan, stripped of the great port and industrial center of Calcutta, would be deeply insecure. Fixated on building up its own military capabilities and undermining India’s, it would be a source of endless instability in the region. Yet Nehru and Patel wanted it to be even weaker. They contested every last phone and fighter jet in the division of colonial assets and gloated that Jinnah’s rump state would soon beg to reunite with India.

Worse, Congress leaders threatened to derail the handover if they weren’t given power almost immediately. The pressure explains why Britain’s last viceroy, Lord Louis Mountbatten, rushed forward the date of the British withdrawal by 10 months, leaving Pakistan little more than 10 weeks to get established. (Excoriated ever since, the British seemed vaguely to believe they might keep governing Pakistan until the state had gotten on its feet.) Nehru and Patel cared little for Jinnah’s difficulties. “No one asked Pakistan to secede,” Patel growled when pressed by Mountbatten to show more flexibility.
...
Nor did the Indian leaders show much compunction about using force when it suited them. After Pakistan accepted the accession of Junagadh, a tiny kingdom on the Arabian Sea with a Muslim ruler but almost entirely Hindu population, Congress tried to spark a revolt within the territory — led by Samaldas Gandhi, a nephew of the Mahatma’s; eventually, Indian tanks decided the issue. When Pakistan attempted in October 1947 to launch a parallel uprising in Kashmir — a much bigger, richer state with a Hindu king and Muslim-majority population — Indian troops again swooped in to seize control.
...
This serves no one except radicals on both sides. With rabid 24-hour satellite channels seizing upon every cross-border attack or perceived diplomatic affront, jingoism is on the rise. Indian strategists talk loosely of striking across the border in the event of another Mumbai-style terrorist attack; Pakistani officials speak with disturbing ease of responding with tactical nuclear weapons. From their safe havens in Pakistan meanwhile, the Taliban have launched one of the bloodiest spring offensives in years in Afghanistan, even as U.S. forces prepare to draw down there. If he truly hopes to break the deadlock on the subcontinent, Modi needs to do something even Gandhi could not: give Pakistan, a nation born out of paranoia about Hindu dominance, less to fear.

I hope this can be a great discussion on the anniversary of these two nations' independence.

Both countries must come to terms with each other and accept each other if they're to move on.

Also this is my first thread I hope it goes well!
 

Window

Member
Geographically speaking, I have absolutely no idea how Junagadh could have ever become part of Pakistan. I don't even know what the idea was with east and west Pakistan. Who drew up the borders exactly?

Was there always such animosity between Hindus and Muslims in the region? I would have thought the Mughal rule would have led to some sense of peaceful coexistence.
 

noquarter

Member
Thanks, is a pretty good article that helps describe Pakistan's early plight. It's a shame that the country isn't what Mohammad Ali Jinnah had hoped for and that Zia-ul-Haq's laws still stand.

Was there always such animosity between Hindus and Muslims in the region? I would have thought the Mughal rule would have led to some sense of peaceful coexistence.
From everything I've read, and like the article states, it really built up around the early 1900's as India was going for independence. The current leaders were mostly Hindu and Muslims were underrepresented. As independence came nearer, the Muslim League pushed to have an independent state, since they could see that the under representation would likely remain. Muhammad Ali Jinnah was pushing for the government to be free of religion, while Ghandi was pushing for leaders to be themselves (such as wearing religious garments in parliament and such). Jinnah wanted Pakistan setup more American, where there was a divide from church (mosque) and state and himself as leader wore western style clothing to help push the notion.

Probably over simplification there, but is kind of short hand what I remember reading and learning about the partition.
 
So, India that has long suffered at the hands of Pakistan sponsored Terrorism, the same Pakistan that sheltered Bin Laden and was a big support of Al Qaeda (before 9/11) should make sure Pakistan has less to fear?

There is a problem if you are only viewing India as being founded as a Hindu nation. India was founded as a secular nation, has almost as many Muslims as Pakistan. There is no official religion of India. Pakistan since it's founding was done as an Islamic state. Nothing wrong with that, that is why Jinnah wanted after all. But to say they live in fear of Hindu dominance is ridiculous.

India has not historically started wars with Pakistan. India is not a state sponsor of terror.

Pakistan was actually more economically prosperous than India till the 1970s when nationalism caused a dramatic fall in economic growth. So, don't blame India for Pakistan being a mess, blame Pakistan. Whatever happened during partition was 70 years ago. The rulers of Pakistan have exploited the public to cause the current mess, it has nothing to do with India. It was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban government. It was at the forefront of directing CIA funds for training and arming the mujahideen in Afghanistan. Nothing about all that policy has to do with India.
 

Geist-

Member
My greatest fear is that the hatred from Pakistan and India is what will spark a nuclear holocaust. The animosity just goes so much deeper than other country rivalries.
 
My greatest fear is that the hatred from Pakistan and India is what will spark a nuclear holocaust. The animosity just goes so much deeper than other country rivalries.

India has a no first use policy in place. Pakistan doesn't.

Are we just completely absolving the British from blame here?

True, if anything the mess in current world has more to do with Britain, France, etc. than any other countries.

Britain wanted to move up the timetable for withdrawal from India because it was afraid in getting caught in a Civil War. The civil war that was a result of 150 years of divide and rule policies.

Also, Indian troops did not swoop in to Kashmir to seize control. The current ruler of Kashmir at that time asked for help, as a condition for help Mountbatten (British governor general) (I believe) asked the king to pledge to join India. The king agreed. And then India sent troops.

Also, the only source for "No one asked Pakistan to secede" and some other things in the article is the writer's book itself.

The writer fails to mention that the British general assured Jinnah that there will be no violence during partition.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Despite the differences India on the other hand was founded as a secular nation, and even today it has more muslims than Pakistan, which is why the notion that the muslims would end up being repressed is unfounded. Yes there are still differences even today but I bet half of them wouldn't have existed if the division never took place. And don't forget the division led to one of the biggest displacement of population ever witnessed, it was also needlessly bloody.

Muhammad Ali Jinnah was pushing for the government to be free of religion, while Ghandi was pushing for leaders to be themselves (such as wearing religious garments in parliament and such). Jinnah wanted Pakistan setup more American, where there was a divide from church (mosque) and state and himself as leader wore western style clothing to help push the notion.
This was never going to happen because the foundation of Pakistan was based on forming a country for muslims. Even more so when they after a few years they decided to call the country Islamic republic of Pakistan.

So, India that has long suffered at the hands of Pakistan sponsored Terrorism, the same Pakistan that sheltered Bin Laden and was a big support of Al Qaeda (before 9/11) should make sure Pakistan has less to fear?

There is a problem if you are only viewing India as being founded as a Hindu nation. India was founded as a secular nation, has almost as many Muslims as Pakistan. There is no official religion of India. Pakistan since it's founding was done as an Islamic state. Nothing wrong with that, that is why Jinnah wanted after all. But to say they live in fear of Hindu dominance is ridiculous.

India has not historically started wars with Pakistan. India is not a state sponsor of terror.

Pakistan was actually more economically prosperous than India till the 1970s when nationalism caused a dramatic fall in economic growth. So, don't blame India for Pakistan being a mess, blame Pakistan. Whatever happened during partition was 70 years ago. The rulers of Pakistan have exploited the public to cause the current mess, it has nothing to do with India. It was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban government. It was at the forefront of directing CIA funds for training and arming the mujahideen in Afghanistan. Nothing about all that policy has to do with India.

All of this.
 

Hazzuh

Member
Are we just completely absolving the British from blame here?

Britain deserves blame for creating the sectarianism and division on the ground in the long term but it's hard to see what Mountbatten could have done in 1947 to avoid bloodshed. Events were escalating out of control with or without British involvement and Britain didn't have the resources in any sense to do much about it.
 
Muhammad Ali Jinnah was pushing for the government to be free of religion, while Ghandi was pushing for leaders to be themselves (such as wearing religious garments in parliament and such). Jinnah wanted Pakistan setup more American, where there was a divide from church (mosque) and state and himself as leader wore western style clothing to help push the notion.

This is what alot of people don't understand Jinnah was purely secular, and wanted India to be that way as well. Even Pakistan was not meant to be an "Islamic" state.

The Pakistan Theory was at first a threat/bluff for a more American system that Congress/ Nehru called and Jinnah had to go through with it.

Had Jinnah not died as quickly as he did Pakistan might be more secular as Turkey. Jinnah always claimed Ataturk as a model as well.

Heck imagine if Jinnah agreed with Congress for some reforms and actually was the first leader of India, a thought that Nehru and Patel despised to their cores.

Anyone who says this Jinnah wanted Islam or Sharia has no idea what Pakistan was made to be.

But I do agree that this feeling of "small" Pakistan and "large" India is the paranoia that always keeps this nationalist notion in Pakistan.
 

nOoblet16

Member
My greatest fear is that the hatred from Pakistan and India is what will spark a nuclear holocaust. The animosity just goes so much deeper than other country rivalries.
Yea this is not happening.
It's a cold war and India atleast has a policy of not using nuclear weapons first.
 
Pakistan since it's founding was done as an Islamic state. Nothing wrong with that, that is why Jinnah wanted after all.

Pakistan didn't become an "Islamic" Republic until 1956, long after Jinnah died in 1948.

The Pakistan movement may have started as a homeland for Muslims but Jinnah's calls were actually started as a homeland for "India's Minorities". There are tons of minorities that went to Pakistan, not only Muslims. Thousands of Christians from Goa and Kerala also moved in the Partition because of Jinnah's promise of freedom to all minorities.

Jinnah's quote which he wanted added to the Constitution:

"You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed -- that has nothing to do with the business of the State."

Let's not get the crazy Islamisized Pakistan of Zia ul Haq (which we have today) mixed with Jinnah's ideal
 
This is what alot of people don't understand Jinnah was purely secular, and wanted India to be that way as well. Even Pakistan was not meant to be an "Islamic" state.

The Pakistan Theory was at first a threat/bluff for a more American system that Congress/ Nehru called and Jinnah had to go through with it.

Had Jinnah not died as quickly as he did Pakistan might be more secular as Turkey. Jinnah always claimed Ataturk as a model as well.

Heck imagine if Jinnah agreed with Congress for some reforms and actually was the first leader of India, a thought that Nehru and Patel despised to their cores.

Anyone who says this Jinnah wanted Islam or Sharia has no idea what Pakistan was made to be.

But I do agree that this feeling of "small" Pakistan and "large" India is the paranoia that always keeps this nationalist notion in Pakistan.

The problem was he was pushing for a separate state for Muslims. Whatever his intentions it was not sold to the public like that. He may have wanted a secular government but at its core the foundation was not on secular lines.
 

nOoblet16

Member
This is what alot of people don't understand Jinnah was purely secular, and wanted India to be that way as well. Even Pakistan was not meant to be an "Islamic" state.
Like I said, it's not practical to expect secularism when the reason you want to separate and form a new country is so that the muslims can live there. It just doesn't work like that.
The whole idea of secularism is to be free from religion which is the exact opposite of the idea of forming a country for muslims....even if he wanted it that way it wouldn't have been possible because it's basically like trying to do things the hard way.

Heck imagine if Jinnah agreed with Congress for some reforms and actually was the first leader of India, a thought that Nehru and Patel despised to their cores.
Nehru was a dick, and Gandhi didn't take any sides but it was clear that he wanted Jinnah to become the PM. I do think it would have prevented the partition had Jinnah been the leader of a unified India.
 
Pakistan didn't become an "Islamic" Republic until 1956, long after Jinnah died in 1948.

The Pakistan movement may have started as a homeland for Muslims but Jinnah's calls were actually started as a homeland for "India's Minorities". There are tons of minorities that went to Pakistan, not only Muslims. Thousands of Christians from Goa and Kerala also moved in the Partition because of Jinnah's promise of freedom to all minorities.

Jinnah's quote which he wanted added to the Constitution:

"You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed -- that has nothing to do with the business of the State."

Let's not get the crazy Islamisized Pakistan of Zia ul Haq (which we have today) mixed with Jinnah's ideal

It didn't have an official Constitution till 1956. Please don't blame that on India too.
 

Azih

Member
Yup Partition is a lot like the original Brexit. A power play between all sides that spun out of control to the grief of all.

Unlike Brexit though every side had a valid point. Congress wanted a very centralized government. Jinnah wanted a more decentralized setup.

Nobody's hands are clean since then. Pakistan isn't evil incarnate. India isn't a saint. Or vice versa. Real life is far more complicated than that.
 
The problem was he was pushing for a separate state for Muslims. Whatever his intentions it was not sold to the public like that. He may have wanted a secular government but at its core the foundation was not on secular lines.

This is true, unfortunately as western as Jinnah was many of his speeches were translated into Urdu as he barely spoke it fluently. Many historians (like Sikander Hayat, a leading revisionist) actually believe that they were simplified with this idea of "Islam" to make it easier amongst the population and that Muslim League agitators used this for their own anti-secular agendas.

While a majority of his speeches and slogans did involve Islam there are many times where he also used the term minority as well.
 

noquarter

Member
So, India that has long suffered at the hands of Pakistan sponsored Terrorism, the same Pakistan that sheltered Bin Laden and was a big support of Al Qaeda (before 9/11) should make sure Pakistan has less to fear?

There is a problem if you are only viewing India as being founded as a Hindu nation. India was founded as a secular nation, has almost as many Muslims as Pakistan. There is no official religion of India. Pakistan since it's founding was done as an Islamic state. Nothing wrong with that, that is why Jinnah wanted after all. But to say they live in fear of Hindu dominance is ridiculous.

India has not historically started wars with Pakistan. India is not a state sponsor of terror.

Pakistan was actually more economically prosperous than India till the 1970s when nationalism caused a dramatic fall in economic growth. So, don't blame India for Pakistan being a mess, blame Pakistan. Whatever happened during partition was 70 years ago. The rulers of Pakistan have exploited the public to cause the current mess, it has nothing to do with India. It was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban government. It was at the forefront of directing CIA funds for training and arming the mujahideen in Afghanistan. Nothing about all that policy has to do with India.
Mohammad Ali Jinnah didn't want the state to be created as an Islamic state, but as a haven for the underrepresented in India mostly made up of Muslims. What happened after it became a state is not what his intentions were. The country was meant to be for every caste and religion.
This was never going to happen because the foundation of Pakistan was based on forming a country for muslims. Even more so when they after a few years they decided to call the country Islamic republic of Pakistan.
We know it didn't happen, but it does sort of mirror how the US was founded, people seeking religious freedom leaving and setting up a place where they don't have to worry about the leader's religion.

I might have too much of a Pakistani bias on this though, learning most of what I know about this while learning Urdu. I haven't really gone to look too much into it from the Indian side.
 
Any good books / sources to learn about the partition? I know only the basic overview. As a brown dude thats pretty embarassing.
 

nOoblet16

Member
One of the thing that baffles me (based on what I've been told by my Pakistani friends) is the history taught in Pakistani schools, I mean up until the partition India and Pakistan shared the same history yet the kids barely learn anything of this shared history. Instead of learning about the thousands of year old south asian culture, they learn about the arabs and persians.

I grew up and went to school in India and we did learn about the arabs and persians in school too along with the times preceding them.
 

Azih

Member
One of the thing that baffles me (based on what I've been told by my Pakistani friends) is the history taught in Pakistani schools, I mean up until the partition India and Pakistan shared the same history yet the kids barely learn anything of this shared history. Instead of learning about the thousands of year old south asian culture, they learn about the arabs and persians.

I grew up and went to school in India and we did learn about the arabs and persians in school too along with the times preceding them.

Pakistan is an incredibly young nation. It doesn't have much history so it focuses on what it's got. Every country focuses on its 'own' history. It's not really that surprising. It's not going to focus on the history of the 'enemy' as Pakistan and India have been since conception.

Edit: I lived in Pakistan for two years growing up.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Mohammad Ali Jinnah didn't want the state to be created as an Islamic state, but as a haven for the underrepresented in India mostly made up of Muslims. What happened after it became a state is not what his intentions were. The country was meant to be for every caste and religion.
While true, he didn't think it practically.
There are many minorities in the region the sikhs, the christians, the jains but with the way things unfolded, they seemed to have been sidelined much in the same way Jinnah felt the minorties were sidelined in India. India wanted to be a secular state but it was obviously biased towards Hindus, Pakistan wanted to be a secular state and it ended up being biased towards Muslims. Same thing with a different coat of paint.
 
Pakistan is an incredibly young nation. It doesn't have much history so it focuses on what it's got. Every country focuses on its 'own' history. It's not really that surprising.

Edit: I lived in Pakistan for two years growing up.

Thats a pretty lame excuse. The region has literally thousands of years of history going all the way back to the Indus Valley.
 
One of the thing that baffles me (based on what I've been told by my Pakistani friends) is the history taught in Pakistani schools, I mean up until the partition India and Pakistan shared the same history yet the kids barely learn anything of this shared history. Instead of learning about the thousands of year old south asian culture, they learn about the arabs and persians.

I grew up and went to school in India and we did learn about the arabs and persians in school too along with the times preceding them.

You can blame that on this guy.
I swear he is probably the person, in my opinion, that did the most irreparable damage to Pakistan as a country and society.
He thought he could unite Pakistan by using Islam to his advantage in the 80s with fundamentalist Islam during the Soviet-Afghan War.
By Gen. Zia ul Haq's Islamization policies he sought to bridge Pakistan more with the Middle East, away from its Indian Subcontinent heritage.
He is the reason for the Blasphemy laws, he is the reason for the large amount of radical Madrassas, the Afghan problem, the Taliban problem in the Northwest, and fundamentalism as a whole.

Jinnah would be ashamed someone like this ever controlled the country.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Pakistan is an incredibly young nation. It doesn't have much history so it focuses on what it's got. Every country focuses on its 'own' history. It's not really that surprising.

Edit: I lived in Pakistan for two years growing up.
So why do they learn of the persians and arabs from a millennia ago who were not their "own"? And why is it that Indians learn of that too? If anything the middle easterns were the outsiders and if they really were focusing on their "own" they'd be learning about the shared south asian history. It's one thing to focus, but it's another to completely deny the heritage.

Pakistan is a new country only in a political sense, and India is just as new in that sense. Outside of the politics they both share a rich heritage that is one of the oldest in the world, what belongs to Indian heritage belongs to Pakistan's heritage and vice versa, we are the same people afterall. What you are describing would hold true for a country like USA where much of the current population's history only goes as far back as the colonial times and as such the heritage is limited from the time of colonisation.
 
Thats a pretty lame excuse. The region has literally thousands of years of history going all the way back to the Indus Valley.
Modern history is different than pre-modern history. You can't blame Kenya for lack of modernization despite the evidence of first human civilization appearing there.
 

MikeMyers

Member
If Jinnah and Nehru had managed to find a compromise...

My grandad was telling me what it was like living through the final days of the British Raj. Says walking from what became Pakistan to India was the longest walk of his entire life.
 
So why do they learn of the persians and arabs from a millennia ago who were not their "own"? And why is it that Indians learn of that too? If anything the middle easterns were the outsiders and if they really were focusing on their "own" they'd be learning about the shared south asian history. It's one thing to focus, but it's another to completely deny the heritage.

Pakistan is a new country only in a political sense, and India is just as new in that sense. Outside of the politics they both share a rich heritage that is one of the oldest in the world, what belongs to Indian heritage belongs to Pakistan's heritage and vice versa, we are the same people afterall. What you are describing would hold true for a country like USA where much of the current population's history only goes as far back as the colonial times and as such is limited from the time of colonisation.
I don't understand this problem. It isn't denying the heritage. Isn't Islam a big deal enough to understand how it reached the subcontinent? Like, 99% of the population is Muslim. Granted I'm not Pakistani or know the details about their education curriculum but that's a silly reason to indict the education system. In US they teach you about Roman history, do they not? What does Emperor Constantine got to do with modern US political nation? History is history. Political history, or civics, is something else. I don't need to learn about Canada's civics in my US school.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I don't understand this problem. It isn't denying the heritage. Isn't Islam a big deal enough to understand how it reached the subcontinent? Like, 99% of the population is Muslim. Granted I'm not Pakistani or know the details about their education curriculum but that's a silly reason to indict the education system. In US they teach you about Roman history, do they not? What does Emperor Constantine got to do with modern US political nation? History is history. Political history, or civics, is something else. I don't need to learn about Canada's civics in my US school.
I don't think you actually understand my criticism.

All those things that get taught in Pakistani schools are taught in Indian schools as well...because Islam reaching the subcontinent is a big deal. On the other hand Pakistani schools teach none of the pre islamic history...that to me is denying heritage.

Don't you see what I am getting at?
 
I don't think you actually understand my criticism.

All those things that get taught in Pakistani schools are taught in Indian schools as well...because Islam reaching the subcontinent is a big deal. On the other hand Pakistani schools teach none of the pre islamic history...that to me is denying heritage.

Don't you see what I am getting at?

Hmm, I was under the impression that the indus valley civilization (Harappa/Mohenjodaro) history was taught.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Hmm, I was under the impression that the indus valley civilization (Harappa/Mohenjodaro) history was taught.
They do, but then they skip centuries.
I didn't say they didn't learn a thing from before the arrival of Islam, it's that very few of it gets taught.

Just as an example, I'd be surprised if they learnt of Ashoka from the Mauryan dynasty, despite the fact that his empire went as far as Afghanistan.
 

Xe4

Banned
India has a no first use policy in place. Pakistan doesn't.



True, if anything the mess in current world has more to do with Britain, France, etc. than any other countries.

Britain wanted to move up the timetable for withdrawal from India because it was afraid in getting caught in a Civil War. The civil war that was a result of 150 years of divide and rule policies.

Also, Indian troops did not swoop in to Kashmir to seize control. The current ruler of Kashmir at that time asked for help, as a condition for help Mountbatten (British governor general) (I believe) asked the king to pledge to join India. The king agreed. And then India sent troops.

Also, the only source for "No one asked Pakistan to secede" and some other things in the article is the writer's book itself.

The writer fails to mention that the British general assured Jinnah that there will be no violence during partition.

I'd go even further and say that it is absolutely a problem Pakistan has an official relegion. I consider freedom of relegion to be a human right, and I am very disheartened to see that not be the case for Pakistan.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
To the title, I guess in the sense of India using the time since independence to get to Mars while Pakistan spent it all trying to get terrorists across the Indian border.

Pakistan's fixations ruined it. Not India.

I think the author is right about paranoias though. Every time there's muslim on muslim violence in the news, watch the comments. If it's in Pakistan at least, it's always some sort of Christian-Jew-Hindu/CIA-Mossad-RAW conspiracy, it's never just muslim extremism according to some commenters.

Pakistan is also responsible for increasing such paranoias due to their genocide in what is now Bangladesh in 1972, the world kind of ignored what was going on thanks to Nixon and Kissinger, India went in and stopped the genocide and allowed democratic rule, Pakistan has been reeling about it ever since. They started the largest genocide since the holocaust but still manage to be high-horse about it.

I think a lot of Pakistanis do realize this, my friends certainly do, but their shaky government and near military rule reinforce paranoias about trying to be weakened.

An absolute must read -
https://warisboring.com/in-1971-the...viets-over-bangladesh-c65489bc72c0#.t49one4ry
 

LordOfChaos

Member
To give some sense of who actually has something to be paranoid about, this is what happened to the Hindu population in Pakistan, contrast to the stronger than ever 13.5% Muslim population in India. Other minorities followed a similar trend in Pakistan since independence.

It's a big part of why India giving up on Kashmir would be a terrifying prospect for the minorities that live there.


Hindus%2Bin%2BPakistan.png
 
India's treatment of Punjab and Sikhs would make for a very interesting discussion. We don't see this as 'independence day'.

Always surprised by how little attention it is given over here in England, I presume it's the same in America.

Just read into 1984 for an idea.
 
On the other hand Pakistani schools teach none of the pre islamic history...that to me is denying heritage.

Don't you see what I am getting at?

I need sources of curriculum here. We can't just generalize and say they don't learn any of those topics. Most of my relatives say they've learned about Mohejo Daro, Harappa, Mauryan and Gupta Empires as well as the rule of the Mughals.
 
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