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Fully Autonomous (Level 4) Vehicles on Roads 2020, say multiple industry reps

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I am worried this cars will not be affordable for a long time.

In my opinion, this will be the main factor in how fast these cars are adopted. There's already a lot of people that can't afford a new car as it is, like myself.


Established car markers will try to stop this, it would massively reduce the number of vehicles produced by at least 90%, probably even more.

We're talking about a future where car ownership pretty much no longer exists, where cars are almost always serving clients 24/7 rather than idling 23h a day if not more and wasting valuable city space.

Thankfully there's no stop to this process, can't stop progress in a connected world.

I don't really see it that way. You'd still have the same number of people that need to go placed in a car. And I'm assuming a large number of people don't want people they don't know in the same car they travel in, and would be willing to purchase their own self driving car. I also see self driving cars being replaced sooner as the technology gets better.


How will this technology handle part degradation and maintenance, and failing sensors? What politicians in California are going to support this when they more fixated on mass transit?

Hopefully they'd make inspection laws more strict for self driving cars, to make sure they're always in perfect working order.
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
I was a long time opponent of autonomous cars but I want one. More time to spend as I want to? Hell yeah! No crowded busses or waiting in the rain/cold and still have a personal driver? Why not! And if I want to I can still drive manually. But I won't buy no Google car. I don't like some company tracking my every move and showing me dedicated ads on the highway when I pass.
 
Crazy how resistant some people are to a change that will literally save thousands of lives a year. The "but driving is fun!" excuse is the worst.
The biggest resistance to this is going to be cost. There are wayyyy too many people struggling to make ends meet, let alone be able to afford a self driving car. Until these types of vehicles can be had for less than 20k, driving your own car isn't going anywhere.
 
The biggest resistance to this is going to be cost. There are wayyyy too many people struggling to make ends meet, let alone be able to afford a self driving car. Until these types of vehicles can be had for less than 20k, driving your own car isn't going anywhere.

Many new cars already have cameras and self driving features

I really don't think this is going make cars insanely expensive the way people are making it out to be.

Besides, the future is one of less car ownership with fleets of automated cabs getting people to point A to B, people struggling to make ends meat in a city probably won't need a car in the distant future (thinking decade from now is a reasonable time frame)
 
The biggest resistance to this is going to be cost. There are wayyyy too many people struggling to make ends meet, let alone be able to afford a self driving car. Until these types of vehicles can be had for less than 20k, driving your own car isn't going anywhere.

If it's as good as we all hope, it might shift the transport industry so much that low income people won't even need a car. Uber is a relatively affordable ride service, imagine how cheap it could become without needing drivers, especially once they're operating low(er) maintenance electric cars. It could very realistically be more affordable to hail an automated cab everywhere than to own your own car and the associated hidden expenses. Not to mention a low cost taxi could take you directly to a job as opposed to a bus with it's predetermined routes. This would reduce the complexity of a lot of low income worker's commutes and might even offer more job opportunities as a result.
 
The biggest resistance to this is going to be cost. There are wayyyy too many people struggling to make ends meet, let alone be able to afford a self driving car. Until these types of vehicles can be had for less than 20k, driving your own car isn't going anywhere.

I don't think getting this technology into lower end cars will be much of an issue. The actual hardware needed isn't actually that expensive, it's just in high end cars now to help fund the R&D. I agree that complete rollout won't be possible for many years due to the issues you mentioned, but that shouldn't make people against it.

The people who enjoy driving are probably causing the least amount of traffic accidents though.

What makes you think this?
 
do cars speak to each other to get an even better picture of the terrain around corners etc?

Doesn't seem like it. Eventually they should have a hive mind

The biggest resistance to this is going to be cost. There are wayyyy too many people struggling to make ends meet, let alone be able to afford a self driving car. Until these types of vehicles can be had for less than 20k, driving your own car isn't going anywhere.

If you live paycheck to paycheck, owning a normal car sucks. Some part breaks and repair costs €400. You won't own an autonomous car, it'll be like taking the bus but can eventually be cheaper.
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
The biggest resistance to this is going to be cost. There are wayyyy too many people struggling to make ends meet, let alone be able to afford a self driving car. Until these types of vehicles can be had for less than 20k, driving your own car isn't going anywhere.

It will take off in the commercial space long before it becomes common for consumers. Truck Drivers, Bus Drivers, Taxi services all would likely be very interested in this technology. I'm not quite sure why people think this will eliminate jobs though. I agree with other posters thinking the jobs will just be downgraded slightly. There will likely always need to be someone with the truck to handle issues with delivery, refilling of fuel, maintenance issues, etc. There will always need to be someone on the boss to keep order on the bus and possibly sell refreshments, keep the bus clean, etc.

What would happen to bicycles once most cars become autonomous?

Nothing. Why would anything happen to bicycles? It will still be the most efficient way to get around to places that are a bit too far for walking.
 

TylerD

Member
Yeah closed-circuit race tracks will be real popular. New hobby.

The cost will need to come down. Racing and track days are expensive. Hopefully the demand will be such that there will be more tracks built and the costs involved will decrease considerably.
 
I will accept autonomous driving if manual controls are enabled and if there was a way to jailbreak my car. I can just imagine what would happen if the grid controls get hacked.
 
It will take off in the commercial space long before it becomes common for consumers. Truck Drivers, Bus Drivers, Taxi services all would likely be very interested in this technology. I'm not quite sure why people think this will eliminate jobs though. I agree with other posters thinking the jobs will just be downgraded slightly. There will likely always need to be someone with the truck to handle issues with delivery, refilling of fuel, maintenance issues, etc. There will always need to be someone on the boss to keep order on the bus and possibly sell refreshments, keep the bus clean, etc.

I can agree with this. Commercial will see a huge savings (and increased profits) from automated driving. Hopefully the tech can mature there and bring the costs down for the rest of us. Just hard to imagine a time in the next 5-10 years where the average blue collar worker is calling up an automated car to take him to the next job site. Joe is still going to need a truck he can beat up at and on the way to/from job sites. I do really want a driverless future as much as the rest of you guys/gals, I just think it is going to be closer to 2030 before it is more mainstream. Really exciting times though.
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
Accidents will probably still happen with these vehicules, although I'm curious on how better it will be, and how these vehicules will react in a major accident.

The technology needs to be near perfect before it will be adopted by consumers. I can't imagine the shitstorm that will happen if a few automated cars change lanes at the wrong moment, or where they didn't register a stop that was half hidden by snow or plants.

It will also probably take longer to go from point A to point B since these vehicules will never go above the speed limit. I'm sure that will piss off some people ha.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
do cars speak to each other to get an even better picture of the terrain around corners etc?

There are a few efforts being made for this sort of thing. A cloud service that is sort of a google maps 3.0, that ties into sensors embedded into cars or even into the city itself, feeding back constant updates, allowing for all cars connected to the network to get immediate updates as well. It's absolutely the end goal.

It will take off in the commercial space long before it becomes common for consumers. Truck Drivers, Bus Drivers, Taxi services all would likely be very interested in this technology. I'm not quite sure why people think this will eliminate jobs though. I agree with other posters thinking the jobs will just be downgraded slightly. There will likely always need to be someone with the truck to handle issues with delivery, refilling of fuel, maintenance issues, etc. There will always need to be someone on the boss to keep order on the bus and possibly sell refreshments, keep the bus clean, etc.

If you check out the language of the people working on these sorts of efforts, the idea is really to remove the human element entirely. Better operation systems won't require someone in the truck to handle deliveries - just someone at the depot that the payload is being dropped off at, who understands how to unpack a truck (efforts will probably be made to automate even this process). Refilling fuel isn't a big concern, as this is already beginning to be automatic, especially with electric systems and when it comes to maintenance issues (like a break down) this can be handled ad hoc. Buses might still have someone in their to do regular bus duty stuff aside from driving - but not cars - self driving 'taxis' are what all the car manufacturers are vying to get into right now specifically because they believe it's going to upend the transportation industry.

I think what people aren't realizing is that eventually, without the human element, you can completely re conceptualize what it means to transport. Instead of a single truck that hauls large amounts of stuff, maybe a dozen small cars, that are basically just cubes, that can intelligently create trains and draft on highways, disperse and reconnect when need be. Something similar for transporting people. Or completely new platforms that couldn't be handled before - like a fleet of self-driving hot dog stands that dispense hotdogs at any location you request on your app. Drunk as shit at 3am on a cold saturday morning, and don't know where the closest hotdog stand in this godforsaken snow storm? Huddle in a doorway, call it to you, and fill your belly.
 

Dougald

Member
Shouldn't be a problem. There's already bike lanes for cyclists to ride in.

If anything, I wonder what will happen with motorcycles, as they share all the same roads with cars.


There's no reason they'll be banned (or that manual cars will be for that matter). You can still take horses on roads, there are just a lot less of them.

I'll trust a computer not to hit me a lot more than a human
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
So excited. Can't wait. Sounds more like our lifetime and more and more like 'well before we get anyone close to Mars'. Fuck yeah.

The good news is that one redundancy system will be documentation. Like a black box for cars to understand how accidents happen. With auto driven cars, you'll have great data for each collision.

I anticipate an insurance benefit for autonomous cars, similar to having an alarm for your house.
 
Crazy how resistant some people are to a change that will literally save thousands of lives a year. The "but driving is fun!" excuse is the worst.

Lots of things people are free to do cost lives and money.

I'd love this for highways, but back roads and rural areas? Hell no.

I also like to drive without a destination in mind, so this would suck for that.
 

Neo C.

Member
It will also probably take longer to go from point A to point B since these vehicules will never go above the speed limit. I'm sure that will piss off some people ha.

Wether you are 5 minutes earlier or later doesn't matter much, as long as you can use the time productively. That's why modern public transport puts the focus on frequency instead of duration.
 

Snakeyes

Member
I'm confused, what does cycling have to do with automated cars?

From what I understand, the eventual goal of autonomous vehicles is for all of these cars to link up together and use the information provided by each vehicle to function as a highly efficient transportation network that would be a lot faster and safer than our current one, which is built around the limitations and unpredictability of human drivers. In order to really take advantage of this technology however, we would have to minimize the number of conventional cars on the road, hence the talk of significantly increasing the cost of ownership or making a handful of special lanes for people who still want to drive themselves, if not relegating manually driven cars to closed circuits and banning them from most roads outright.

Since bicycles (and other alternative transportation methods like electric scooters) will remain human-driven and thus a potential source of human error on roads where autonomous cars are a majority, wouldn't they also need to be regulated by stricter laws like conventional cars (but to a lesser extent), or would you still be able to bike mostly wherever you want just like today?
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
I don't really see it that way. You'd still have the same number of people that need to go placed in a car. And I'm assuming a large number of people don't want people they don't know in the same car they travel in, and would be willing to purchase their own self driving car. I also see self driving cars being replaced sooner as the technology gets better.

Makes no sense, it's guaranteed to reduce the number of cars produced, hence reduce car sales. The most optimal product is used at all time. Cars are idling most of the time.

The way it will work is a company or government will own a fleet of autonomous cars, and will have an efficient demand-prediction model, mapped to locations, hours, etc. So you'll have an optimal number of cars as part of the fleet according to peak demand. You will certainly still end up with cars being idle as the demand levels vary a lot from day to night and across week days, but it will be a far more optimal use of the cars than having the majority being idle 23 hours a day if not more. Cars will always be going where demand is expected, much like taxis, and more efficiently. Even if you have 50,000 people who want to drive somewhere, so what? Have you looked outside to see how many cars are NOT going anywhere? When they have nothing to do they'll go where they are most likely to be needed, or go back to their station to be serviced/cleaned/etc. Add to this the fact that they'll be designed to be highly fuel efficient if not electric.

It's absolutely certain that autonomous fleets imply much fewer car sales, it's part of the very benefit of the whole thing; fewer cars to produce, less urban space wasted, higher return on investment, variable uses (a car can deliver a pizza just like it can carry someone), etc. Huge savings for municipalities too in not having to go around issuing tickets (they'll issue tickets to people though), and all sorts of other savings.

Add to this the carpooling possibilities (pretty damn simply to design, just put some sliding panels inside, plus you can charge extra for it).

Having your own car will be possible, but a waste of cash.

From what I understand, the eventual goal of autonomous vehicles is for all of these cars to link up together and use the information provided by each vehicle to function as a highly efficient transportation network that would be a lot faster and safer than our current one, which is built around the limitations and unpredictability of human drivers. In order to really take advantage of this technology however, we would have to minimize the number of conventional cars on the road, hence the talk of significantly increasing the cost of ownership or making a handful of special lanes for people who still want to drive themselves, if not relegating manually driven cars to closed circuits and banning them from most roads outright.

Since bicycles (and other alternative transportation methods like electric scooters) will remain human-driven and thus a potential source of human error on roads where autonomous cars are a majority, wouldn't they also need to be regulated by stricter laws like conventional cars (but to a lesser extent), or would you still be able to bike mostly wherever you want just like today?

People are also source of errors. Don't worry, police will still issue tickets, but cycling infrastructure will also be far more well funded and planned thanks to this whole thing to begin with. Bikes will be more popular, not less.
 
Crazy how resistant some people are to a change that will literally save thousands of lives a year. The "but driving is fun!" excuse is the worst.

I'm not allowed to say that I have fun driving. Gotcha.

I'm all for saving lives, but we need to take a step back and make sure we do this correctly. I for one do not want to be part of a five hundred car pileup after someone hacked the government car hivemind for a lark because their security was lax.

I am also reminded of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 and fear reliance on automation to the point where you cannot manually drive in case of a problem.

Also also, those fleets of government owned cars (which sounds like a Republican's nightmare frankly) aren't going to help those of us who work from out of our vehicles. ;D
 
I still can't believe that we are living this dream lol. I always figured it would happen someday, but I just never really expected it to actually happening so quickly.. I was having a conversation about this with my family like 3 years ago, and now they're going to be a reality in 2020. What an amazing time to live in.
 
In my opinion, this will be the main factor in how fast these cars are adopted. There's already a lot of people that can't afford a new car as it is, like myself.

.

I think this is going to impact huge on things like Uber or shared vehicle ownership. If it really takes off, it's not going to be because individuals are still buying their own car the way they used to. I think the idea is that the perception of cars is going to be a lot less "personal" when you aren't driving it. Less and less people will feel the need to own their own.

I have to admit, the idea of one sole sunday driver driving his Corvette among a bunch of driverless cars, or the idea that article on page 1 referenced of entire small town communities who rely on the economy of truckers being decimated is some Twilight Zone shit.
 

BizzyBum

Member
It would be scary as hell to be in a car that drives itself on the highway for the first time.

Crazy that years from now old people will be saying "back in my day we had to drive these things ourselves!" It's gonna be one of those things where kids just laugh and wonder how we got by.
 

Neo C.

Member
Makes no sense, it's guaranteed to reduce the number of cars produced, hence reduce car sales. The most optimal product is used at all time. Cars are idling most of the time.

[...]

Having your own car will be possible, but a waste of cash.

I already live in a society with top notch public transport and a good variety of car sharing, yet my country still has one of the highest ration of car per person in Europe. I guess many people just do what my dad does, letting their car sit in the garage all day and only use it on the weekend for a short trip.

No doubt in my mind that when people can easily afford it, they will buy it. Having your own car is an huge upgrade to a shared car in terms of privacy.
I can see the number of cars in US being reduced, but only because US isn't able to do anything against a shrinking middle class.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
This tech actually isn't as far along as I'd believed it was. Google's system fucks up once every 74,000 miles? I'm a way better driver. (~500,000 mile sample size)
 

Siphorus

Member
This tech actually isn't as far along as I'd believed it was. Google's system fucks up once every 74,000 miles? I'm a way better driver. (~500,000 mile sample size)
In a few years though a lot can change in terms of software, so it will probably increase dramatically, especially once more are rolled out on the road (assuming they do improve and the number of miles goes up, so will its average).

However I won't be buying gen 1 or 2 of these vehicles probably. But my area in SoCal is the best conditions for one of these.
 
This is so fascinating, but I'm still a little skeptical of certain conditions. How would the car prepare for black ice, etc?

Note: I haven't fully read the thread yet if this has already been touched upon.
 

Scarecrow

Member
As a motorcycle rider, this kinda bums me out. I can't see a place on the road for me when the switch to auto cars happens.
 

Dougald

Member
As a motorcycle rider, this kinda bums me out. I can't see a place on the road for me when the switch to auto cars happens.

You should be happy that safety for riders will go up. I don't understand the mindset that suddenly everything except self driving cars will be banned. Classic vehicles and horses are still on the roads today. I guess the worst that happens is we might see certain trunk roads go self driving only in the same way you can't ride a bicycle on the m25.
 
I wonder if this would make robberies easier for criminals. Like if you're riding in one of those things at night, and one guy steps out in front of it, while another blocks the back. The car's just going to think they're pedestrians and stay put, while they force you out the car at gunpoint or some shit.
 
Ugh, this is awful. The only time I would like it is if it could drive me home when I'm drunk. But that's what Uber is for..

I would hate not owning my own car, and having to share with random people, that's just grossé.

Anyway, hopefully it's one of those things that never really takes off for the mainstream. If I get stuck behind one of these slowpokes sticking exactly to the speed limit I will not be happy.
 

Scarecrow

Member
You should be happy that safety for riders will go up. I don't understand the mindset that suddenly everything except self driving cars will be banned. Classic vehicles and horses are still on the roads today. I guess the worst that happens is we might see certain trunk roads go self driving only in the same way you can't ride a bicycle on the m25.

That's a good point. Especially the safety issue. Not having to worry about blue hairs and kids texting would ease my mind a great deal. I still wouldn't be surprised if sometime down the line all cars must be autonomous.
 

Dougald

Member
That's a good point. Especially the safety issue. Not having to worry about blue hairs and kids texting would ease my mind a great deal. I still wouldn't be surprised if sometime down the line all cars must be autonomous.

Not to mention a computer doesn't rely on seeing a narrow motorcycle move against the background. It'll be the end of the SMIDSY.
 

spwolf

Member
In a few years though a lot can change in terms of software, so it will probably increase dramatically, especially once more are rolled out on the road (assuming they do improve and the number of miles goes up, so will its average).

However I won't be buying gen 1 or 2 of these vehicles probably. But my area in SoCal is the best conditions for one of these.

They will be "drivers assistant" for a decade or so at least.

Trully autonomous driving from your home to park at work is never going to be properly possible until we get smart roads which have sensors that tell the car computer what is going on. Japan just started implementing those, but it is very slow roll out.

But in the meantime, you will have cheap pre-crash in every vehicle that will make everything much safer.

This tech is not expensive - Toyota managed to bring cost of pre-crash down to $300 to customer for affordable yet good system (most right now are not good, for instance German companies have very poor performing pre-crash systems in real life). Toyota's best system costs $600 and has radar cruise control and bunch of other things.

So if that can be sold at $600 for profit, then in 6-7 years we will have same system doing "assistance" driving on its own for $1k or less.

However, fully autonomous cars as people imagine it today are vaporware right now. Hardware for 360 monitoring that can fit a car without huge sensor on top does not exist today. They are hoping it will in 3-4 years, but it doesnt today.

Google is advertising their tech through blogs but if you believed them until few weeks ago, they were saying that they never had a problem with their system. Now with state legislature making them reveal number of times driver had to take over, it is suddenly a lot more. Even then, they are making vague statements.

Here is TIME's article:

While the new data illustrate that Google’s cars aren’t perfect, the number of disengagements has been steadily decreasing over time. Disengagements caused by technical glitches or failures fell from one per 785 miles in the fourth quarter of 2014 to one per 5,318 miles a year later.

Overall, Google has clocked more than 420,000 miles on California public roads. The vast majority of Google’s incidents occurred on city streets in the Mountain View area, near the company’s headquarters. The company is focusing on learning to navigate city streets because the number of obstacles in an urban environment (traffic lights, pedestrians, cyclists) is significantly higher than the number encountered on a freeway.
http://time.com/4179166/google-cars-self-driving-autonomous/


So one "problem" per 5318 miles. With majority of those coming from city driving, which likely means a lot more problems than that in city driving.

Now imagine that with New York traffic or any European city traffic vs freaking Mountain View.
 
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