Further clarification by Capcom on DMC5:SE: Series S will not have RT. Xbox Series X will get Direct X Ray Tracing Patch at a later date

What is the reason why the Xbox Series S is missing RT?

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Metroiddarks said:
Could be but only the people of Capcom can answer that question for its specific case.
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KX1E2Tu.jpg


Yes. DMC 5 in 1080p medium Settings are using 3.8GB VRAM on PC. BVH structures demmands lot of GPU VRAM too.

In Xbox Series S, there are 10GB RAM. Probably 2 or 2.5 for Windows, 2.5 for CPU, binary files. And 5GB for GPU. Maybe DMC on XSS + RT could not be sufficient for old source code.

Of course Capcom could use Sampler Feedback Streaming and solve 5GB RAM problems, but it's a remaster for a current gen game. Probably these remasters don't have some kind of refactoring to all next-gen features.
 
Imo XSS can work as Microsoft designed it, and i think first party games will show the same settings but at different resolutions between XSX and XSS.
The problem is that 3rd parties are free to use XSS as they want. Maybe the devs could of gone at 1080p or 900p, and had RT on XSS, but they decided 1440p/60.
I said it in another thread but i expect some 3rd party devs to sometimes go higher resolution at 30fps, for some XSX games that are 60fps. Microsoft cant force 3rd parties to do a specific thing, devs chose themselves.
 
FlyyGOD said:
You going on record saying ps5 is the more powerful system?
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No but is not always as weaker as you think in some workload can work better.

Something the people in this forums don't understand is tuning the performance is try to use as much is
possible your hardware while you try to reach the correct time in each of your jobs.

The Flops of your CU are only part of that. Let me put some scenario in Game "A" XSX can reach
higher resolution using RT (around 16%) but the other console can have assets with little more detail
as that have more ram to use because is SSD can fill it faster, how much will depend of many factors.

carloseduardoxp said:
KX1E2Tu.jpg


Yes. DMC 5 in 1080p medium Settings are using 3.8GB VRAM on PC. BVH structures demmands lot of GPU VRAM too.

In Xbox Series S, there are 10GB RAM. Probably 2 or 2.5 for Windows, 2.5 for CPU, binary files. And 5GB for GPU. Maybe DMC on XSS + RT could not be sufficient for old source code.

Of course Capcom could use Sampler Feedback Streaming and solve 5GB RAM problems, but it's a remaster for a current gen game. Probably these remasters don't have some kind of refactoring to all next-gen features.
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I insist guys stops doing so many assumptions of things you barely know, here my example the SFS is used now by software in some engines and is know
as virtual texturing (yeah is not new), if was so simple to measure it then any dev will need a dev kit.

You could be right and could be a memory issue, or the core of the GPU is just low for that game, also could be they don't want to use more time tuning
that version because is not worth it or even the API for that console still very green.
 
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Here's the thing that most in this thread are missing.........DMC5 is a current-gen game. It's not next-gen or even a cross-gen game. What happens in the Fall of 2022? What sacrifices will need to be made to make XSS run well, when some of those same games will run at 1440p with RT at 30 fps?
 
FlyyGOD said:
You are reaching for some kind of negative for a system that cost 299.
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You're completely missing the point. Many on GAF over the last 6 months have said Lockhart\Xbox Series S would have a developer's "push to make work in 1080p" button. They said it was only the resolution that would be different. They said everything else would match the XSX.

Yet here we are with DMC5:SE, proving the opposite.
 
mckmas8808 said:
You're completely missing the point. Many on GAF over the last 6 months have said Lockhart\Xbox Series S would have a developer's "push to make work in 1080p" button. They said it was only the resolution that would be different. They said everything else would match the XSX.

Yet here we are with DMC5:SE, proving the opposite.
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I thought it was known that Series s would have toned down graphical effects at a lower resolution with comparable framerates to the Series X.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Here's the thing that most in this thread are missing.........DMC5 is a current-gen game. It's not next-gen or even a cross-gen game. What happens in the Fall of 2022? What sacrifices will need to be made to make XSS run well, when some of those same games will run at 1440p with RT at 30 fps?
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If games are using mesh shaders, vrs and other new techniques but are running a measly 1440p at 30 fps I hope they kill the ray tracing with fire on the series x version also and double performance. That is crap performance unless it is a turn based game for a next generation console. Puddles are not worth going back a generation in performance.
 
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mckmas8808 said:
You're completely missing the point. Many on GAF over the last 6 months have said Lockhart\Xbox Series S would have a developer's "push to make work in 1080p" button. They said it was only the resolution that would be different. They said everything else would match the XSX.

Yet here we are with DMC5:SE, proving the opposite.
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It's not proving anything.

Again, DMC5:SE isn't getting RT on the PC either.
 
mckmas8808 said:
You're completely missing the point. Many on GAF over the last 6 months have said Lockhart\Xbox Series S would have a developer's "push to make work in 1080p" button. They said it was only the resolution that would be different. They said everything else would match the XSX.

Yet here we are with DMC5:SE, proving the opposite.
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I think it will be like that with first party games. 3rd parties are free to use XSS how they want though.
 
mckmas8808 said:
You're completely missing the point. Many on GAF over the last 6 months have said Lockhart\Xbox Series S would have a developer's "push to make work in 1080p" button. They said it was only the resolution that would be different. They said everything else would match the XSX.

Yet here we are with DMC5:SE, proving the opposite.
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Even Phil denied that saying you need to work for two consoles to bring X and S versions.


Stuart360 said:
I think it will be like that with first party games. 3rd parties are free to use XSS how they want though.
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It won't be like that for neither.
 
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duhmetree said:
So, can we deduce that the PS5 has an easier way to implement Ray-Tracing?

LocalRay?
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There are games at launch that support Ray Tracing(some like Bright Memory 1.0 can even be used as benchmark for Ray Tracing. Instead you are using DMC V to base all your speculations. Capcom's RE3 Xbox One X patch was gimped at launch and fixed later, does not mean Xbox One X was hard to develop for.
 
ethomaz said:
It won't be like that for neither.
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You dont know that so dont act like you do.
Thats the way they desribed in in the official XSS reveal vid, and thats what i'm sure they will aim for with first party games.
3rd party studios are free to do what they want though.
 
Stuart360 said:
What you on about?, you're the one saying it wont be like that.
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Phil Talk Talk.

"But absolutely, it is work. There's no doubt about that. The fact that you have two performance specs now, I'm not going to stand here or try to PR somebody and say two different specs is the same as having one spec. It's not. We're doing this because we want to expand the market."
 
Bernkastel said:
There are games at launch that support Ray Tracing(some like Bright Memory 1.0 can even be used as benchmark for Ray Tracing. Instead you are using DMC V to base all your speculations. Capcom's RE3 Xbox One X patch was gimped at launch and fixed later, does not mean Xbox One X was hard to develop for.
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or that Sony is the only one showing Ray Tracing in AAA games?

Not hard to develop for.. Just 'harder' than Sony, ie my original point. 'Can we deduce its easier to implement RT for Sony?'
 
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ethomaz said:
Phil Talk Talk.

"But absolutely, it is work. There's no doubt about that. The fact that you have two performance specs now, I'm not going to stand here or try to PR somebody and say two different specs is the same as having one spec. It's not. We're doing this because we want to expand the market."
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And?, of course there is some work involved. You cant just take XSX code then turn the resolution down.
I still think this is what they will aim for in first party titles though, but again, 3rd parties can do what they want, Microsoft cant force them.
 
Hix said:
The PC version of the game won't have RT either, so not having RT doesn't automatically mean it couldn't have it.

Of course, that doesn't fit with the narrative.
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As far as I know Capcom are not even releasing SE on the PC. It is only for the next gen consoles.
 
duhmetree said:
or that Sony is the only one showing Ray Tracing in AAA games?

Not hard to develop for.. Just 'harder' than Sony
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What do you mean by only one ? Xbox first benchmarked Ray Tracing back in March


At launch
  • Bright Memory 1.0(shown in May)
  • Man Eater
  • Observer: System Redux
  • Watch Dogs: Legions
The Medium launching December 10 also has Ray Tracing. Then we have things like Project Mara and Flight Simulator later. All your speculation is based on that one game(and the same company previously failed at proper Xbox One X patch at launch last gen).
 
Stuart360 said:
Have they said why?. Seems weird but i dont think it sold great on PC.
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The official reason

Devil May Cry 5 Special Edition is specifically being developed and optimised to benefit the system architecture and leap in processing power offered by PS5 and Xbox Series X, so we're focusing on these platforms,

Neo_game said:
As far as I know Capcom are not even releasing SE on the PC. It is only for the next gen consoles.
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Yes and no, the SE will only really have Turbo Mode and RT over the PC version, as far as I know.

The other graphical features/benefits (resolution/framerate caps, shading etc) already exist on PC and I don't think the Turbo Mode is holding it back, it's implementation of RT.
 
Hix said:
Well, the original is obviously on PC, but it's just not getting RT support

In any case there are games supporting RT on Series S so it's not a case of it "can't", it's Capcom's call in the end.
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You're fluffing up a false equivalence to try and help out Series S and I've seen you try it in multiple posts.

DMC5 SE has ray tracing, not DMC5. DMC5 SE is not announced for PC so there is no comparison to make regarding PC having ray tracing

If a PC version is announced down the line, you can rest assured it will have ray tracing support
 
Yoboman said:
You're fluffing up a false equivalence to try and help out Series S and I've seen you try it in multiple posts.

DMC5 SE has ray tracing, not DMC5. DMC5 SE is not announced for PC so there is no comparison to make regarding PC having ray tracing

If a PC version is announced down the line, you can rest assured it will have ray tracing support
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You're ignoring the fact that the SE has no graphical upgrades over the PC version other than RT.

It's literally RT, Turbo Mode and Legendary Dark Knight Mode.

They are already adding in the additional character from the SE to DMC5 PC, the only three things missing are RT and the two gameplay modes.

Why not give RT support to PC also?

Further, I don't need to "help out" Series S, it's already confirmed to have RT for some titles even at launch. It's not a case of can't, it's a case of Capcom won't.
 
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quest said:
If games are using mesh shaders, vrs and other new techniques but are running a measly 1440p at 30 fps I hope they kill the ray tracing with fire on the series x version also and double performance. That is crap performance unless it is a turn based game for a next generation console. Puddles are not worth going back a generation in performance.
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Keep saying it all you want, but 1440p at 30 fps is not crap performance. Why do you want to be one of "those" guys?
 
..b...but the cpu is same as xsx! and powerfull than ps5! it should pose no issue!

simply just turn down the setting sliders and resolution!
pc and smartphones out there is the proof!
 
How powerful was ps4 compared to ps4 pro? to have outsold ps4 pro for four years.
That too without backward compat and gamepass.
 
Bernkastel said:
What do you mean by only one ? Xbox first benchmarked Ray Tracing back in March


At launch
  • Bright Memory 1.0(shown in May)
  • Man Eater
  • Observer: System Redux
  • Watch Dogs: Legions
The Medium launching December 10 also has Ray Tracing. Then we have things like Project Mara and Flight Simulator later. All your speculation is based on that one game(and the same company previously failed at proper Xbox One X patch at launch last gen).
Click to expand...

I dont know what you're arguing. I never said Microsoft cant do ray tracing... just that Playstation may be easier to implement. Maybe these developers with DirectX experience proves that point. Capcom and other AAA console devs may find it easier to implement on Sony. Minecraft and AA games is paltry compared to Demon Souls, Godfall, Spiderman, DMC5, Ratchet and Clank etc.

Sony has shown many AAA games with it and Microsoft couldn't even show their crown jewel, Halo, with it... once again, back to the main point, 'It may be easier to implement on Playstation'.... Minecraft Ray Tracing does not refute that point.
 
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duhmetree said:
I dont know what you're arguing. I never said Microsoft cant do ray tracing... just that Playstation may be easier to implement. Maybe these developers with DirectX experience proves that point. Capcom and other AAA console devs may find it easier to implement on Sony. Minecraft and AA games is paltry compared to Demon Souls, Godfall, Spiderman, DMC5, Ratchet and Clank etc.

Sony has shown many AAA games with it and Microsoft couldn't even show their crown jewel, Halo, with it... once again, back to the main point, 'It may be easier to implement on Playstation'.... Minecraft Ray Tracing does not refute that point.
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Maybe. Maybe it is easier on ps5, and better results on xbox.
Lower level complicated mathematical function calls for raytracing on xbox will lead to better performance than easier framework level function calls on ps5.
 
Kumomeme said:
..b...but the cpu is same as xsx! and powerfull than ps5! it should pose no issue!

simply just turn down the setting sliders and resolution!
pc and smartphones out there is the proof!
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It's not as easy, Games dont change settings like us while running on different gpu, there are detailed performance profiles and switch statements in codes for different GPU's.
 
Its crazy people are using launch games as the bar for the entire generation before the consoles even hit the shelves. The goal post is running out of room. It can't be moved another inch.
 
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Aladin said:
Maybe. Maybe it is easier on ps5, and better results on xbox.
Lower level complicated mathematical function calls for raytracing on xbox will lead to better performance than easier framework level function calls on ps5.
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Maybe. It's uncharted territories for a lot of devs.

It seems similar but not as severe as the PS3. I'd trade some early struggles for a 'TLoU' experience from The Initiative.
 
Codename: Classified said:
Wonder why Microsoft is billing it as "Direct X" Ray Tracing and not just plain RT. Are we looking at a software solution here? or just marketing?
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Well they also advertise XSX's RT as Hardware Accelerated Ray Tracing
While Sony says theirs is Hardware based
Makes sense and probably the reason some games will be missing it on XSX at launch.
 
I'd say both underpowered/limited + SDK/API tools state for Series S. Remember some of the Id Software devs openly criticized MS and weren't happy with it after the official SS specs reveal? IIRC, they said memory would be a limiting factor as RT is mem intensive.

There's no doubt that devs are having problems with it also because they've moved away from XDK to GDK. That's likely why the patch is delayed for Series X (because of SDK issues) but not for PS5 because it's a much easier console to develop for, and they're loving it.
 
The Xbox Series 32S makes less and less sense each day. Yes, it's an attempt to grab the mass market, but at what cost? They really should have gone for a digital XSX instead, unless the XSS surprises and gets snapped up by a bunch of people who really wanted to buy an Xbox, but somehow missed the opportunity with the X1, X1S, and X1X. If it's longevity will rely on streaming, then that has yet to be demonstrated. It really has shades of 32X disaster, when before it even launches, it gets gimped versions of the better SKU's games. Economies of scale don't work, as it's 2 different chipsets and different packaging too.

Was the XSS the original STB plan that MS had, before they repurposed their server core to create the XSX? It would explain both the utilitarian design of the XSX, as well as the issues with dev kits. They couldn't just redesign the XSS core, and if they were already planning on the XSX SOC for streaming servers, then it gave them a chipset that could handle next-gen visuals, without having to design a 3rd processor. The cost of an SOC designed for server blades might have restricted the budget in other areas like the SSD, or further customizations of newer AMD tech.

Just random spitballing, as I have no evidence to back this up. I've just found the sequence of events leading up to the XSX/S launch to be rather bizarre. 2 non-modular SKUs never made sense, the lack of footage from the hardware instantly looked like dev kit issues unrelated to COVID, talk of the XSX SOC being used in servers raises questions about what the original intention was, talk of MS wanting to transition to quite consoles in favor of GP, and MS' own garbled messaging over the past 6 months feels like patchwork cobbling of a strategy that hadn't yet been finalized. It feels like a rushed launch, which always suggests to me that something big had changed. You can say COVID, but Sony and their teams went through the same pandemic, but have been much-better prepared. What gives?
 
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Aladin said:
It's not as easy, Games dont change settings like us while running on different gpu, there are detailed performance profiles and switch statements in codes for different GPU's.
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sadly there lot of people think it is that simple, despite lot of devs describe optimization process is not easy.
 
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Well... it's likely a time issue. How much time would it take for them to make RT work on a Series S? Is it even worth it for them? The Series X is definitely powerful enough to do RT, there's no doubt about that. But again, it's likely a time thing. Did DMC sell more on PS5? Yea, probably. I don't know if DMC would have had RT on either console at launch if they focused on getting it on both. Does it suck, yea it does. One of the biggest selling points, for some people, is absent on a console that clearly can do it. I just wonder how long it'll take for them to get that update out for the Series X.
 
itsjustJEFF said:
Well... it's likely a time issue. How much time would it take for them to make RT work on a Series S? Is it even worth it for them? The Series X is definitely powerful enough to do RT, there's no doubt about that. But again, it's likely a time thing. Did DMC sell more on PS5? Yea, probably. I don't know if DMC would have had RT on either console at launch if they focused on getting it on both. Does it suck, yea it does. One of the biggest selling points, for some people, is absent on a console that clearly can do it. I just wonder how long it'll take for them to get that update out for the Series X.
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Does Microsoft have a team like ICE from Sony?

If they don't they need to invest in one
 
Concern said:

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Cerny himself.
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What he clearly meant in his Gamasutra interview (an industry publication which knows the applicability of FP16 optimisations) is that for FP16 code the HW performs as an 8.4 TFLOPS one would for that portion of code. How is it wrong / false / misleading?
Same thing MS's Architects claimed for XSX's FP16 and INT8/INT4 ops. I do not find that misleading.

The "miscalculation" with PS4 Pro FP16 double rate support is that developers would not spend much time optimising for it beyond what use of it they were already making on the base PS4 (or Xbox One... FP16 optimised shaders reduce bandwidth and register pressure which helps increase the number of active threads).
 
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