Support NeoGAF

[SoulPlaya]

I agree with separating each genre and judging them different (I'm a big metal head and electronic fan myself) but I think, just because one is different from the other, doesn't mean one is necessarily easier. They both require talent and hundreds of hours to be great at.

Of course, both require hours to be great at. It's just my opinion that becoming a great guitar player, for instance, is harder than being a great rapper.

 

[Devil Theory]

Before this gets out of hand, let me explain myself. I love hip-hop. It's arguably my favorite genre of music, and it's had a huge influence on my youth. With that said, however, I do have a hard time placing rappers and other musicians in the same category. I do that out of a sense of obligation to other musicians. I just feel like it's a lot harder to learn to play an instrument or sing well, than to just rap well.

Rhyming structure can be as difficult to master as any instrument; taking years of practice as well as a natural talent for it to flow correctly through the right voice. Unfortunately, it's an extremely difficult talent to recognize unless you're already familiar with hiphop in a deeper sense - meaning 90% of the general public won't ever realize the time some hiphop artists actually put into an album or lyric. Especially when the genre is so cluttered.

However, I still vaguely have this attitude about other musicians being somewhat superior, natural reaction I suppose, based on the medias overall attitude and perception of music as a whole.

 

[Blackace]

It's just out of respect to a few friends of mine. One has been learning to play the guitar for years and years, and he's just now getting ready to put out some music.

To me, it's easier to be a great rapper (notice I said nothing about producing) than a great guitar or drum player (as common examples).

It's not that being a rapper is easy, just relatively easier.

So lead singers aren't as talented as a drummer then?

I think you do a great disservice to the music you claim to love

 

[Blackace]

I thought he was dismissing Kanye, because Kanye didn't have Quincy's musical skills. It seemed like QJ didn't feel like Kanye should be placed on his level.

QJ has accomplished so much and did during a time when blacks had little to no chance to do what he was doing.. So yeah he dismissed Ye for a number of reasons...

 

[SoulPlaya]

So lead singers aren't as talented as a drummer then?

I think you do a great disservice to the music you claim to love

I didn't say talent, I said difficulty. If you're born with a great voice, then you could argue that being a lead singer is easier than being a drummer.

If, however, you worked on perfecting that voice for years, then it could be different.

 

[Beaulieu]

Dunno if it's been posted already, but heres a new track from Royce da 5'9 ft eminem.
It's pretty dope imho

http://hulkshare.com/lxzlhrjad3rb

 

[SoulPlaya]

QJ has accomplished so much and did during a time when blacks had little to no chance to do what he was doing.. So yeah he dismissed Ye for a number of reasons...

Yeah, but come on, that's not why he dismissed Kanye in this interview. He asked, whether Kanye could conduct orchestras like he could. To me, he was dismissing Kanye based on lack of ability. To him, Kanye is "just a rapper".

 

[Recon]

It seems you don't like hiphop as much as u say you do if you have those beliefs. I can play piano,guitar pretty decently,but I would say constructing a rhyme that is both complex and meaningful is infinitely harder than coming up with chord progressions.

 

[Devil Theory]

Yeah, but come on, that's not why he dismissed Kanye in this interview. He asked, whether Kanye could conduct orchestras like he could. To me, he was dismissing Kanye based on lack of ability. To him, Kanye is "just a rapper".

Personally, that's one of the last things I'd label Kanye.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Rhyming structure can be as difficult to master as any instrument; taking years of practice as well as a natural talent for it to flow correctly through the right voice. Unfortunately, it's an extremely difficult talent to recognize unless you're already familiar with hiphop in a deeper sense - meaning 90% of the general public won't ever realize the time some hiphop artists actually put into an album or lyric. Especially when the genre is so cluttered.

However, I still vaguely have this attitude about other musicians being somewhat superior, natural reaction I suppose, based on the medias overall attitude and perception of music as a whole.

Then, maybe we should spend more time on those rappers that do spend hours perfecting their lyrics. I appreciate lyricism, and I made that clear a few pages ago (yeah, yeah 50 post pages), and I wish that this thread didn't just become about Gucci and Lil'B for pages and pages. That's just my opinion, though, and I certainly wouldn't push it on anyone else.

 

[effzee]

Dunno if it's been posted already, but heres a new track from Royce da 5'9 ft eminem.
It's pretty dope imho

http://hulkshare.com/lxzlhrjad3rb

Was posted few pages back. It sucks cause Royce is talking about guns and penis.

 

[Pinko Marx]

Since animated avatars are no longer allowed, I'll be dickriding El-P until I can think of a better avatar.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Personally, that's one of the last things I'd label Kanye.

It's what QJ labeled him, not me.

 

[Blackace]

I didn't say talent, I said difficulty. If your born with a great voice, then you could argue that being a lead singer is easier than being a drummer.

If, however, you worked on perfecting that voice for years, then it could be different.

There are naturals at every thing.. Take Jimi Hendrix fo example, do you respect him less because he could play a guitar upside down and never took lessons and so forth and so forth?

 

[Blackace]

Yeah, but come on, that's not why he dismissed Kanye in this interview. He asked, whether Kanye could conduct orchestras like he could. To me, he was dismissing Kanye based on lack of ability. To him, Kanye is "just a rapper".

One thing I learned from Michael Jordan is greats don't like to be compared

 

[Devil Theory]

Then, maybe we should spend more time on those rappers that do spend hours perfecting their lyrics. I appreciate lyricism, and I made that clear a few pages ago (yeah, yeah 50 post pages), and I wish that this thread didn't just become about Gucci and Lil'B for pages and pages. That's just my opinion, though, and I certainly wouldn't push it on anyone else.

Understandably, the ultimate goal of any underground hiphop fan.

 

[SoulPlaya]

There are naturals at every thing.. Take Jimi Hendrix fo example, do you respect him less because he could play a guitar upside down and never took lessons and so forth and so forth?

Not at all.

I guess I'm just frustrated that hip-hop seems to place (at least mainstream wise) less emphasis on lyricism these days. When the most popular rappers are just random kids with a dance, or fools with gimmicks, I started to backlash against the genre for changing away from something that I loved so much. It even seems like, to me at least, that being a great lyricist or rapper isn't a prerequisite these days for being "good", even on GAF. I guess I'm just frustrated at that, and I feel like it's tarnished the genre in my eyes.

 

[tsurugi no mai]

"On fire, like a candle is." - Wiz Khalifa

What the fuck?

 

[Master Milk]

Of course, both require hours to be great at. It's just my opinion that becoming a popular guitar player, for instance, is harder than being a popular rapper.

I feel this post would make a lot more sense if it were written like this.

With all the mainstream, popular, successful rappers that suck ass lyrically, I don't begin to understand how anyone can think that being a great rapper is easier than being a great anything else.

And, I also have to wonder what you consider great as far as rappers go.

 

[HiResDes]

An effort to be perfect is a ridiculous one, and certainly not the end all be all to good lyricism... One could even make the claim that an artistic imperfection, conducted with style and charisma can be just as good as an overbearing rhyme structure.

 

[Devil Theory]

"On fire, like a candle is." - Wiz Khalifa

What the fuck?

Point.

I'm embarrassed this clown came from my city and actually "made it".

 

[kamspy]

"On fire, like a candle is." - Wiz Khalifa

What the fuck?

Deep Rhymes from Wiz Khalifa™

 

[HiResDes]

BTW, speaking of great lyricism, has anyone talked about this track that was posted last week.

 

[Gamer98]

"On fire, like a candle is." - Wiz Khalifa

What the fuck?

lol

 

[SoulPlaya]

An effort to be perfect is a ridiculous one, and certainly not the end all be all to good lyricism... One could even make the claim that an artistic imperfection, conducted with style and charisma can be just as good as an overbearing rhyme structure.

I'll always favor superb lyrics that I find relate-able, and convey a strong meaning to be superior to random lyrics thrown together, simply to showcase a complex rhyme structure. Now, if you combine them, then wow.

 

[Devil Theory]

An effort to be perfect is a ridiculous one, and certainly not the end all be all to good lyricism... One could even make the claim that an artistic imperfection, conducted with style and charisma can be just as good as an overbearing rhyme structure.

As much as I love and adore Canibus and his albums, he can be severely guilty of this.

 

[HiResDes]

Nicki Minaj has consecutive bars that are just as brain numbing.

 

[Complex Shadow]

^ :lol so true

wow this is getting outta hand.

 

[SoulPlaya]

As much as I love and adore Canibus and his albums, he can be severely guilty of this.

I was just pumping Mic Club today. Man, more people need to listen to that album.

 

[Blackace]

Not at all.

I guess I'm just frustrated that hip-hop seems to place (at least mainstream wise) less emphasis on lyricism these days. When the most popular rappers are just random kids with a dance, or fools with gimmicks, I started to backlash against the genre for changing away from something that I loved so much. It even seems like, to me at least, that being a great lyricist or rapper isn't a prerequisite these days for being "good", even on GAF. I guess I'm just frustrated at that, and I feel like it's tarnished the genre in my eyes.

Rap is one of the few forms of music where the youth can express themselves instead of being told how to express themselves by someone not even close to their age.

Hip-hop has so many layers.. So many and thats awesome

Also other forms of mainstream music are just as gimmicky as hip-hop but you seem to give them pass because of instruments for whatever reason

 

[Recon]

An effort to be perfect is a ridiculous one, and certainly not the end all be all to good lyricism... One could even make the claim that an artistic imperfection, conducted with style and charisma can be just as good as an overbearing rhyme structure.

But that's two different things. Someone could have all the charisma in the world,I would still praise the better lyricist. A good MC balances everything,and those are hard to find. A guy like immortal technique is a great lyricist,but the guy only really focuses on his lyrics, hell,he doesn't even have that great a flow. I think the newest rapper that has a great balance of everything is J.Cole.

 

[enzo_gt]

I'm guessing you guys don't know what I'm referencing. I'm just wondering if you guys read this interview with Quincy, when someone compared Kanye to him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/nov/24/quincy-jones-kanye-west

I saw this article when it was posted and was shocked to see how Quincy classified Kanye. He kept referring to him as a rapper, as if that's all he does. I'm pretty sure Quincy isn't aware that Kanye produces music as well, and even if he does I doubt that'd chance Quincy's opinion if he hasn't acknowledged or seen the growth of Kanye throughout the past decade.

"How, man?" he said. "No way. Did [Kanye] write for a symphony orchestra? Does he write for a jazz orchestra? Come on, man ... I'm not putting him down or making a judgment or anything, but we come from two different sides of the planet. I spent 28 years learning my first skill. I don't rap. It's not the same thing. A producer has to have some sort of skills that enable him to be a producer. It's a whole different mindset. No comparison. None."

Here is Quincy implying to be a legitimate producer he has to write for an orchestra, or must have that catalogue of skills to be measurable as a producer on every level. This as well appears narrow minded to me of Quincy. Why must he, and you use instrumentation as an arbitrary measure of music excellence? What does that prove? That you can play an instrument very well? That's pretty much it.

Why must lyrics and skills be generalized to sum up the quality of the music altogether? Look at Papoose. Dude's got wordplay by the metric ton but struggles to make a good song because that's all he fucking does.

Kanye and Quincy have no comparison, they lead different legacies, from two different eras, from two different sects of music. Quincy is more respected for his body of work because it spans a longer timeframe and is once again of a different era, and has worked with the King of Pop, so naturally he'd be held to a higher level. There is no comparison, unless we want to go ahead and compare to see if Nate Dogg is a better singer than Paul McCartney.

But you better believe Kanye is trying to get on Quincy's level. Pretty much the largest pipe dream ever, but the relentless hunger for self-improvement, pushing boundaries and sounds is something I acknowledge and respect. It's Kanye. He'll tell you today he's the best producer out and then slave for months to perfect his product anyways, unsatisfied with his accomplishments. And this is what keeps him as one of the most consistent producers out there.

 

[kamspy]

The vocal cadence in a good hip hop joint is actually part of the percussion.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Rap is one of the few forms of music where the youth can express themselves instead of being told how to express themselves by someone not even close to their age.

Hip-hop has so many layers.. So many and thats awesome

Also other forms of mainstream music are just as gimmicky as hip-hop but you seem to give them pass because of instruments for whatever reason

I don't give them pass, they suck too.

However, and I repeat, I'm talking about difficulty here. It's harder to be a guitar player from a bad band than being a terrible rapper (say Lil'B), who just spouts random BS that he took no time or real effort in putting together over a beat that someone else made for him. That takes just a few minutes of fake ass work. Hell, I could do that, lol.

 

[HiResDes]

The vocal cadence in a good hip hop joint is actually part of the percussion.

BLASTIT

 

[kamspy]

Some dudes just have crazy intangibles.

 

[HiResDes]

Both Cormega and Rass Kass had so much potential...Like so much I don't even know how they didn't blow and evolve to make something monumental. Well Rass Kass always had his tin foil hat on, so I understand actually.

 

[Kaizer]

I'll always favor superb lyrics that I find relate-able, and convey a strong meaning to be superior to random lyrics thrown together, simply to showcase a complex rhyme structure. Now, if you combine them, then wow.

As much as people hate him (especially for his recent actions) this is one of the reasons Lupe is one of my favorite rappers. A song like Failure does a lot for me on a surface level, but then there's all the hidden word play and meanings lurking below for listeners to seek out that I think are incredible.

And in response to the Kanye West/Quincy Jones matter, while I don't think you can directly compare West and Jones, you can certainly make an analogy. What the both of them do is inherently different, yet the purpose they serve is similar. The same way Jones creates a catchy medley with Bossa Nova, Kanye does with Gold Digger.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Both Cormega and Rass Kass had so much potential...Like so much I don't even know how they didn't blow and evolve to make something monumental. Well Rass Kass always had his tin foil hat on, so I understand actually.

Ras Kass, unfortunately, couldn't get the exposure that he deserved. He also had too unique of a flow for mainstream rap. I guess Jeru had the same problem.

 

[kamspy]

Mega couldn't stay out of jail. Nas dropped him from the Firm project for Nature, the most boring rapper of all time. He eclipses mac miller levels of mild. I remember my dude bought his solo album and ended up throwing it out the window before we got home from the mall.

On the bright side, all the Cormega CDs that ended up coming out were independent, so he made a lot more per album then a big label rapper.


I loved Rass Kass through Soul on Ice and Rassassination, but then he kinda got into mad rapper mode when he didn't blow up.

 

[Nabs]

Mega sold quite a few records with his first two, but i don't remember hearing the greatest things about landspeed.

 

[LOZLINK]

Gaf hop be sipping on that haterade today. '
Edit: and siddx ain't even here, what the fuck

 

[MWS Natural]

I personally like the contemplative religious themes of the album, shown especially on Hell of a Life and Devil in a New Dress...Kanye's a walking contradiction, a confused, indecisive, and often misunderstood dude but his music combines all of these weaknesses into something greater. BTW, I'm not angry, I just think this is a good discussion and I'm always game for those.

Exactly how I feel. Kanye's flow isn't the greatest but he's a top 10 mainstream lyricist in my opinion.

 

[IrishNinja]

Mega couldn't stay out of jail. Nas dropped him from the Firm project for Nature, the most boring rapper of all time. He eclipses mac miller levels of mild. I remember my dude bought his solo album and ended up throwing it out the window before we got home from the mall. .

aw, man...i had a buddy do this with some bloods & crips disc he was dying to get, then shat all over.

But you better believe Kanye is trying to get on Quincy's level. Pretty much the largest pipe dream ever, but the relentless hunger for self-improvement, pushing boundaries and sounds is something I acknowledge and respect. It's Kanye. He'll tell you today he's the best producer out and then slave for months to perfect his product anyways, unsatisfied with his accomplishments. And this is what keeps him as one of the most consistent producers out there.

^this. even where i couldnt get into 808 & heartbreak, i respected what he was going for. he's right that plenty of entertainers are prolly crazy insecure, but channeling that and working with it...it creates something from the imperfections, like des said.

I agree with separating each genre and judging them different (I'm a big metal head and electronic fan myself) but I think, just because one is different from the other, doesn't mean one is necessarily easier. They both require talent and hundreds of hours to be great at.

this too. your voice is an instrument, and unlike other singers, rappers might not have to work nearly as much on pitch, but sound/lyric structure/style still count as putting in work (if effort is your quality for metric, which feels a no less arbitrary one than dude last page saying ye's awards were validation).

 

[Kimosabae]

Kanye is underrated as a lyricist. His poetry lies in his candidness.

 

[IrishNinja]

forgot a few:

Primo beat of the year has to go to immortal tech's one if it ever materialises. I just think Primo has to go HARD on that or it's going to sound shit and not suit Tech at all.

wait, Tech is doing shit this year? i thought you guys said he dropped out of rapping for activism or something.

I lost a little respect for QJ when he remade PYT after MJ died.... With T-Pain and Robin Thicket..

there's no way that actually happened.

Spoiler

please say there's no way that actually happened

 

[Pinko Marx]

Kanye is underrated as a lyricist. His poetry lies in his candidness.

Yeah...Nah. Hes rated about where he needs to be, sometimes overrated. Kanye is an above-average lyricist on his best days.

 

[TheOddOne]

"On fire, like a candle is." - Wiz Khalifa

What the fuck?

Reminds me of Wayne on "Money on my Mind": Dear Mr. Toilet I'm the shit.

Bhahahhahahhaha.

 

[DominoKid]

I've become a lot more impressed lyrically w/ Curren$y since I started to rap myself.

When I get bored in class, I try to replicate other rappers styles, and his is one of the hardest for me to do.

He was already one of my favorites, but this just kinda reinforces it.

 

[DominoKid]

If you ever want to get weirded out about the whole "FREE EARL" situation

go here

these people have far too much time on their hands...