-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT2| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
Imperfected
Member
Salsa vs. Ouya. Fiiiiiiight.
BarringGaffner
Member
I don't know about 'realizing'. Her character has changed drastically.
Was Arya ever a brat, though? I don't recall her ever being bratty in season 1 and she definitely wasn't in season 2-7, she didn't really have time to be a brat when she was fighting for her around every corner.
I mean, she was definitely a bit of a douche and sarcasm at times but braty? Braty is what Sansa was in season 1 until Ned got his head cut off.
I mean, she was definitely a bit of a douche and sarcasm at times but braty? Braty is what Sansa was in season 1 until Ned got his head cut off.
Its a little silly considering how Jojen went and he only had one wight on him.
sunshine and gasoline
Banned
Best Stark is Ned Stark and he kicked the bucket a long time ago.
Creepo Bran is best living Stark.
She was a little brat. One of her first scenes is of her throwing food at Sansa during the feast.
https://youtu.be/uazzYl5brJg?t=4m13s
Both she and her sister were brats to each other. But it's not some damning thing, they were children.
Speaking of Arya and Sansa, some thoughts about the current Winterfell storyline.
While I don't dislike this plotline as much as some do, I do think it's the weakest this season just because it seems way too late for something like this to happen and because I'm not happy with Arya and Sansa playing. This doesn't mean that this storyline is being poorly written within the context of these characters, which I've seen people say, because that's the opposite of what is happening.
What are some things we know about Arya? She loved her mother, father and brothers, but she had a deep hatred towards Sansa because in her eyes, she picked Joffrey, the man who would go on to kill Ned, over everyone in their family. When given the chance to choose the Starks, she sided with Joffrey and got Mycah and Lady killed and it also made Arya have to let go of Nymeria, a wound that she stills carries with her up until season 7.
Sansa is a person whose whole story so far has been that of a pawn that other people use to play the game, she has been used and abused, while she was powerless to do anything about it. Finally in season 6 she got a taste of taking her life into her own hands but when she was almost to the top, Jon was chosen instead of her, and while she was momentarily happy in season 6, in season 7 we have seen that she is a bit resentful of Jon being chosen. Arya sees this, and because she knows her better than anyone else, she remembers how she was when she was younger, how she wanted to have pretty things and be above others, even if this meant going against her family, and Arya believes she hasn't changed is it just doing it again but now to Jon, and that letter is just proof that even in King's Landing she was still trying to get higher in the world, even at the expense of her family.
Then we have Littlefinger who is the Michael Jordan of playing the game, you can't get much better than this rat fuck. I have seen people say that Arya shouldn't be falling for Littlefinger's schemes but if not him, then who? Is Arya just going to become the best player in the Game because she's a great assassin and warrior? Those aren't skills that directly transfers over to playing people against each other, which is what Littlefinger doing, especially when Littlefinger is using information that Sansa confirms to be true, though Arya doesn't understand the context, to her it's just a confirmation of who her sister already is.
Having said that, I think this story is these characters distilled who they truly are and who they believe each other to be, all of this is fine and would normally make for a great subplot, but like I said, we're too far into the story for Starks to be fighting Starks like this. Even though the motivations are sound, it stills feels a bit disappointing that they aren't able to overcome themselves to overcome Littlefinger, we've seen them fight too many foes only to have themselves be undone by their own pettiness.
Hopefully this whole thing leads to Littlefinger getting murdered so we can focus on the bigger picture.
While I don't dislike this plotline as much as some do, I do think it's the weakest this season just because it seems way too late for something like this to happen and because I'm not happy with Arya and Sansa playing. This doesn't mean that this storyline is being poorly written within the context of these characters, which I've seen people say, because that's the opposite of what is happening.
What are some things we know about Arya? She loved her mother, father and brothers, but she had a deep hatred towards Sansa because in her eyes, she picked Joffrey, the man who would go on to kill Ned, over everyone in their family. When given the chance to choose the Starks, she sided with Joffrey and got Mycah and Lady killed and it also made Arya have to let go of Nymeria, a wound that she stills carries with her up until season 7.
Sansa is a person whose whole story so far has been that of a pawn that other people use to play the game, she has been used and abused, while she was powerless to do anything about it. Finally in season 6 she got a taste of taking her life into her own hands but when she was almost to the top, Jon was chosen instead of her, and while she was momentarily happy in season 6, in season 7 we have seen that she is a bit resentful of Jon being chosen. Arya sees this, and because she knows her better than anyone else, she remembers how she was when she was younger, how she wanted to have pretty things and be above others, even if this meant going against her family, and Arya believes she hasn't changed is it just doing it again but now to Jon, and that letter is just proof that even in King's Landing she was still trying to get higher in the world, even at the expense of her family.
Then we have Littlefinger who is the Michael Jordan of playing the game, you can't get much better than this rat fuck. I have seen people say that Arya shouldn't be falling for Littlefinger's schemes but if not him, then who? Is Arya just going to become the best player in the Game because she's a great assassin and warrior? Those aren't skills that directly transfers over to playing people against each other, which is what Littlefinger doing, especially when Littlefinger is using information that Sansa confirms to be true, though Arya doesn't understand the context, to her it's just a confirmation of who her sister already is.
Having said that, I think this story is these characters distilled who they truly are and who they believe each other to be, all of this is fine and would normally make for a great subplot, but like I said, we're too far into the story for Starks to be fighting Starks like this. Even though the motivations are sound, it stills feels a bit disappointing that they aren't able to overcome themselves to overcome Littlefinger, we've seen them fight too many foes only to have themselves be undone by their own pettiness.
Hopefully this whole thing leads to Littlefinger getting murdered so we can focus on the bigger picture.
It's real, which is why she's so worried about it but she was coerced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bkb6tedTRs
There was something else. She received an invitation from Cersei this episode and asked Brienne to fill in for her. But this comes after (I think) she had that really ominous talk with Littlefinger.
The way that I interpreted that scene is that Littlefinger Inceptioned Sansa into thinking that if Arya and Sansa's whole thing would become physical that Brie would obviously step in to end it since she is supposed to take care of both of them. Realising this, Sansa sends her away so she won't step in incase Sansa has to do something to Arya, if it comes do that, but this helps play into Littlefinger's hands because it also gets rid of the person that would try to step LF if he tried to do something to Arya. So she's doing something for herself but not realizing that it's what Littlefinger wanted, she pretty much got Robin'd.
I think, anyway, it seems like it was supposed to be a lil' bit ambiguous what the actual motivations there were or even if that Cersei invitation is real.
The battle of the lake showed Dany's ineptitude as a battle commander. Anyone with half a brain would've gone fireball, fireball, dragonbreath of dooooooom on the commanders chilling in the hillside, watching the battle, before they knew what's up. Nuke the leadership, worry about the footsoldiers later.
More like the ineptitude of the writers amirite.
I think they're immune to fire. Although Dany wouldn't have known that.
hemo memo
Member
But that was Bran, Jon or Rhaegar most likely.
In the final battle between him and Jon Snow, Jon will go "WHY DO YOU FIGHT US? WHAT DO YOU WANT?!" and he will grip Jon's neck and communicate through thought. He will show him the endless wars between Children and Men, Dragons and Men, Giants and Men, and then he will says "We are not so different, you and I." #iconic
curiouscharles
Member
nah bro, the Lord of Light is a god, we'll never see a physical manifestation of him.
just like Azor Ahai / the prince / princess that was promised is the "messiah" [of sorts] of R'hllor, the Night King is the "messiah" [of sorts] of The Great Other, who is the diametric opposite god to R'hllor / The Lord of Light.
so if Jon [or Dany, or Beric, or who-the-fuck-ever] is the new PtwP / Azor Ahai, they are literally the good team's version to R'hllor of what the NK is to TGO.
edit: and yeah guys, i too thought the Bran = Night King stuff was crazy at first, but it KIND OF started to make sense when watching episode 6... like, the NK and his bro-squad were just waiting there with multiple javelins / spears in hand, like this was all pre-meditated. [and we've never seen them with those before, just the ice sword things]
not that just because the NK has greensight he necessarily NEEDS to be a past version of Bran, but i dunno.. fan theorizing is fun i suppose.
Exactly, that's what I mean, if the Night King is one side of the coin then there has to be another, right? SInce there is no afterlife in this world, I can't imagine that the Lord of Light is a god in the sense that we think of gods, he has to be a guy like the Night King.
shinra-bansho
Member
The Lord of Light will be the child of Dany and Jon's twin children. Game of Incest.
If they were gonna give him characterization, you'd really think they'd wait until there's only one season left?
curiouscharles
Member
read my post again, you're not getting it.
R'hllor / Lord of Light = "Good" God.
Jon [or Dany, or Beric, who knows] = that God's messiah [prophet?].
--
The Great other = "Evil" God.
The Night King = that God's messiah [prophet?].
Get it yet?
The hell is a The Great other.
Atomic Odin
Member
Who's R'hllor?
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
I'm going to partially go back on something I said many pages back. And that's that the finale can completely redeem episode 6's handling of the Arya and Sansa plot.
Now I feel that they can, but it would take a masterstroke of writing to do it without making it feel totally contrived. They really backed themselves into a corner here.
Having them both putting on a charade for Littlefinger's benefit would be stupid because Littlefinger wasn't around. And if they do a surprise reveal that he's been spying on them this whole time and they knew, it would also be dumb. What's the name of that? There's a movie term for it, where writers withhold something from the audience for the mere purpose of making a surprise.
Plus if you go back to the episode where the waif hunts down Arya, when Arya was stupidly wandering around in public with a sack of coins looking for(food was it?) I remember saying to myself at the time "Arya knows the waif is watching her, she's trying to lure her out to kill her." Nope! Arya was just an idiot who somehow was so naive as to not even think she'd be hunting. Fast forward to now, and people think Arya is crafting some master scheme? I doubt it. I was wrong then for assuming the best, and I'd be stunned if Arya has been out-scheming Littlefinger all along.
Unfortunately, what'll probably happen is something dumb that doesn't make much sense in context to their character development or plot, which would render this entire plot line this season a total waste.
Hell, even if Bran talks to them and warns them I'll be like "Cool, so why didn't you do this weeks ago or warn Dany or Jon about the Night King and the ice spears?"
Now I feel that they can, but it would take a masterstroke of writing to do it without making it feel totally contrived. They really backed themselves into a corner here.
Having them both putting on a charade for Littlefinger's benefit would be stupid because Littlefinger wasn't around. And if they do a surprise reveal that he's been spying on them this whole time and they knew, it would also be dumb. What's the name of that? There's a movie term for it, where writers withhold something from the audience for the mere purpose of making a surprise.
Plus if you go back to the episode where the waif hunts down Arya, when Arya was stupidly wandering around in public with a sack of coins looking for(food was it?) I remember saying to myself at the time "Arya knows the waif is watching her, she's trying to lure her out to kill her." Nope! Arya was just an idiot who somehow was so naive as to not even think she'd be hunting. Fast forward to now, and people think Arya is crafting some master scheme? I doubt it. I was wrong then for assuming the best, and I'd be stunned if Arya has been out-scheming Littlefinger all along.
Unfortunately, what'll probably happen is something dumb that doesn't make much sense in context to their character development or plot, which would render this entire plot line this season a total waste.
Hell, even if Bran talks to them and warns them I'll be like "Cool, so why didn't you do this weeks ago or warn Dany or Jon about the Night King and the ice spears?"
The anti-Red God. Darkness, cold, and death. He's part of R'hllor's (The red priests) faith.
There are many good criticisms of this episode in this thread and I agree that the direction was shoddy as well, but some of you guys are just forgetting shit or not paying attention.
So Dany not being inept would have been going the Jaime route? Saying YOLO for an all or nothing shot at winning the war by going after the Night King and hoping dragonfire can destroy a legendary, thousands-of-years-old ice god? Someone who she knows is hard to kill from the cave drawings?
I'm also surprised people want the Night King to talk or have character development. Do you guys not get that the entire story is about people trying to come together despite their differences to fight against a a greater, all-consuming evil? The story is ultimately not that different from LOTR. Jon and Beric's conversation literally explains what this story is about. Night King being anything other than silent death incarnate fucks that up.
That has never been brought up in the show. Ever.
curiouscharles
Member
lol, it's another God, it's like the Satan to the Christian God.
lol, it's the lord of light, the god all the red priests / priestesses pray to [who brought Jon back? and Beric?]
watch alt-shift-x's video on the white walkers in particular, he'll explain it better than i can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih_ZAGCfMY0
remember "the white walkers" were originally referred to as "the others", remember lines such as "the other take you", or multiple examples like that?
the white walkers = the others
the God that powers them / fuels them = The Great Other.
lol, NO.
R'hllor = the lord of light.
god damnit stop confusing people.
The Great Other is never brought up on the show, but "the others" definitely were in the first two seasons [Ned used to use the old fashioned "the others take you" lines I believe].
It probably just became simpler to refer to them all as "white walkers / wights" [though obviously not, because well look at this thread], but they've always been known as "the others" previously.
So maybe I should just stop, but anyway it's quite simple and that's all there is to it.
Two gods, two sides, NK / Jon are the good / evil manifestations of said gods / sides.
Atomic Odin
Member
Come on man that belongs in the other thread.
Not to that level of detail, but yes, it has. It was part of a Mel rant in Season 4.
I don't expect the show to truly tackle that moving forward.
Maybe you should 'cus all you're saying is not applicable to the show.
I agree that the show won't do shit with the idea of this deity, but that's fine. Lets not be in a huff over knowing a bit more about the religion of the red priests now.
curiouscharles
Member
the others, R'hllor / lord of light is all applicable to the show.
TGO is never mentioned, so you're right i'll stfu.
sry :/
but it still answers your NK question ;p [not a god, just a prophet, just like Jon]
yeah i didn't see it being harmful as it's not fully expanded on, but you can still see it all in play.
but yeah i'll stop anyway, just figured you might be curious [since you asked about NK etc]
Its mentioned in season 4.
Its also not really any different than the numerous westeros history videos that are bluray extras that mention lore/history from the books.
But... that's part of the point why there are two threads. Trying to use book information to justify details on the show doesn't apply because the creators of the show take what they want and drop what they don't. It is actually more confusing to assume that they are applicable if it has never been mentioned on the show.
shinra-bansho
Member
The Night King's motivation is that he was made to destroy the humans. Like a Terminator.
curiouscharles
Member
see i thought it had been brought up [albeit loosely] at one point.
and that's true about the bluray extras, they go into all this stuff [that's where i originally got inspired to start youtubing for more info].
note - i've only read the first book, so i'm not a book nerd trying to lead us all astray with book knowledge [though i do watch videos which clearly draw on that].
anyway, mod has spoken, i'll refrain from doing that in future.
I understand what you're saying, and it's fine, I just answered a question on who the great other was so I have no reason for defending the OP that tried to posit a theory or anything. But I do think it should be fine to explain a bit of lore without immediately panicking because it's "no books." The show, hamfisted and blockbusterry as it may have gotten, still exists in this greater world where all these religions exist and have backstories. Knowing R'hllor has a counterpart in that religion isn't really harmful to the "no book" philosophy.
Anyways, I'll move on now.
Lol he's not a prophet or anything. The creators don't care about whether the gods are "real" or not. They're just background noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Jsj9V_Aqg&feature=youtu.be&t=209
To them the Night King is "the embodiment of absolute evil" and the creation of the Night King is to show that he was created by Children of the Forest as a war tool after all, and not some demon or prophet or sign of true religion.
There isn't even any indication that the creators are interested in linking the White Walkers with any religious element. They're the bad guys created to fight a long forgotten war and are left over.
There are many good criticisms of this episode in this thread and I agree that the direction was shoddy as well, but some of you guys are just forgetting shit or not paying attention.
So Dany not being inept would have been going the Jaime route? Saying YOLO for an all or nothing shot at winning the war by going after the Night King and hoping dragonfire can destroy a legendary, thousands-of-years-old ice god? Someone who she knows is hard to kill from the cave drawings?
I'm also surprised people want the Night King to talk or have character development. Do you guys not get that the entire story is about people trying to come together despite their differences to fight against a a greater, all-consuming evil? The story is ultimately not that different from LOTR. Jon and Beric's conversation literally explains what this story is about. Night King being anything other than silent death incarnate fucks that up.
I dont know what his reason are but he is just badass. I almost wanna support him instead of the others. But the others have Jon Snow who is equally badass!
curiouscharles
Member
that doesn't really undo anything i just said.
but you're right in that at least it's touched upon that Jon Snow could be the PtwP on the show [since red priests play a measurable role in the show], but TGO is not mentioned at all - so it's been ommitted from the show canon in order to simplify things [thankfully, the show needs that].
i'll have to rewatch season 4 though to see if it's hinted at as someone suggested, as many things are in very subtle ways.
Atomic Odin
Member
Can't recall seeing R'hllor blurted out on the show. Neither "the others"
Lore videos are a different thing, many people don't watch them.