Most of those "eww" reactions were bullshit. Go back and watch the last few episodes whenever Jon and Dany either touched hands, talked about each other (where someone brings up that they like one another), and a lot of the same people grimacing last episode, were smiling then.
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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT2| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Cornballer
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Most of those "eww" reactions were bullshit. Go back and watch the last few episodes whenever Jon and Dany either touched hands, talked about each other (where someone brings up that they like one another), and a lot of the same people grimacing last episode, were smiling then.
Dany is going to be happy and Jon will be conflicted while giving her the cold shoulder a little until he finds out she is pregnant. Once he knows this he'll be in for the whole ride and its easier since he loves her.
Naughty_Doge
Member
This thread has devolved into reactions to reaction videos. GoT season is over alright 
ComputerBlue
Member
Everyone in Winterfell is probably on their best behavior now.
Thanks for this, forgot about last weeks as well.
Well
He loved her, but that doesn't have to mean he was GOOD at it.
Just like Sansa said.. You loved my mother and I.. Yet you betrayed us. Even Sansa acknowledges that LF loved her, in his own twisted way. He loved them like a psychopath loves murder.
Dany and Jon are going to find out their whole lives have been a lie.
Jon is not a Stark and everything Viserys did to reclaim the throne because it was his birthright and then everything Dany has done because that birthright was now hers, has all been for a lie.
Jon is not a Stark and everything Viserys did to reclaim the throne because it was his birthright and then everything Dany has done because that birthright was now hers, has all been for a lie.
But Jon is a stark
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Jon is going to have a dilemma coming next season. The talk between Theon and himself seems to be some major foreshadowing.
I can't imagine Jon willingly taking the throne. I bet he gives it away like Ned. He doesn't want that shit.
It's not like hearing the truth is gonna make him be like OH DAMN IT'S MINE
Well ignoring the fact that Robert's right by conquest disinherited all Targaryen claimants, what Dany was striving to do till episode 2 of season 6 wasn't a lie. From the moment Visarys died, till the moment Jon was brought back to life, she was the only legitimate Targaryen claimant. That part is not in doubt.
Side note, I keep reading stuff where people state that Westerosi (well besides Dorne) customs has it that women only inherit when all male relatives are exhausted. However, if you're going to claim the throne by conquering it, why can't rewrite the rules like Nymeria did in Dorne?
You know I can understand Theon being both a Stark and a Greyjoy. He spent time with, and was raised by both Houses. He grew up knowing the customs of both houses. I don't see how Jon is Targaryen except for blood. What's Targaryen about Jon? How can he identify with both, when the only interactions he's had with a Targ were with Maestor Aemon (who wasn't talking to him much about the Targ life) and Dany?
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
Help me with the timeline if you please...
-Bobby B. falls in love with Lyanna.
-A tournament of some sort takes place and its champ, Rhaegar, walks by his wife or wife-to-be and plants a kiss on Lyanna.
-He then "takes" her then and there? Or they have a long distance relationship between ravens and then eventually "takes" her.
-Robert rebels.
-Ned Patrick Harris arrives at a tower (while Robert is battling Rhaegar?) and finds his sister dying and learns the truth?
-Or is her death the kickstarter video for the rebellion?
-Bobby B. falls in love with Lyanna.
-A tournament of some sort takes place and its champ, Rhaegar, walks by his wife or wife-to-be and plants a kiss on Lyanna.
-He then "takes" her then and there? Or they have a long distance relationship between ravens and then eventually "takes" her.
-Robert rebels.
-Ned Patrick Harris arrives at a tower (while Robert is battling Rhaegar?) and finds his sister dying and learns the truth?
-Or is her death the kickstarter video for the rebellion?
VindicatorZ
Member
You had it right. The Rebellion was already going on/ was over when Ned went to the tower. Rhaegar was already dead after the battle at the Trident. Rhaegar also likely died because he left his 3 best Kingsguard at the tower to guard his heir Aegon (Jon Snow)
So Rhaegar took Lyanna at some point (It wasn't at the tourney, but he did give her a flower at the tourney in front of his own wife, and Robert, who was already betrothed to her) but what really set off the rebellion was when Ned Starks Father Rickard and Brother Robb rode to Kings Landing to demand the Mad King tell his son Rhaegar to give back Lyanna. The Mad King took this as a crazy insult and imprisoned them. Ned's father demanded a trial by combat and The Mad King declared Fire his champion, and burned both Ned's father and brother alive in the throne room in front of everyone. THIS is when shit really went down because Jon Arynn of the Vale raised Ned and Rob as his stewards and joined their cause after that. So the Stormlands, The North, The Vale and The Riverlands (Catelyn was betrothed to Ned's brother, Ned then married her) all joined in rebellion.
She died after the war ended.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5aO_CsqfBAo
Ned: "I looked for you at the Trident."
Arthur: "And we were not there."
Buddy: "Your friend the Usurper would lie beneath the ground if we had been.
Ned: "The Mad King is dead. It's Rhaegar that lies beneath the ground.
^ The war was over. If Ned is telling them that the Mad King is dead, that means KL was sacked, and Ellia Martell and Jon's brother and sister were also dead.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
It feels like much of what happened to Theon with regards to identity is going to happen with Jon. He is going to have to prove his Stark-ness to command effectively just like Theon had to prove his Greyjoy-ness. In terms of their upbringing Theon and Jon are kind of a mirror of each other.
Yeah so it would be similar to when he Theon returned to his own family and they were like, "it's us or the Starks boy!" But Jon was never of both worlds though. So why would someone in the North suddenly start thinking that Jon knowing who his father is would some how activate some latent Targ culture and customs he was never raised with?
When Baylon Greyjoy asks Theon if it was the Starks who dressed him like that, if it was the Starks who made him forget the Iron Price, etc, he's trapping him between two ways of life that Theon was exposed to, and made him choose which identity he wanted to stick with. Jon has no identity but that of a Stark.
Robert's Rebellion wasn't built on a lie. Anyone who says so is wrong. It was built on Robert feeling slighted and Aerys being insane. Even if they knew the exact facts of what happened, pretty much the exact same thing would have happened. Maybe Ned Stark wouldn't have been so eager to slaughter a bunch of Kingsguard, but everything else would be what it is.
Yeah. I didn't really like that line. Rhaegar taking Lyanna was more of a misunderstanding. And even then, the war only really started after the mad king killed Ned's father and brother as well as demanding Jon Arryn to hand over Ned and Robert.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
I need a rewatch. I'm hesitant to google search because I'd rather a rewatch and the supplements fill me in. Asking here helps tide me over. Thanks folks.
Vincent Alexander
Member
At the same time, let's pretend it was built on a lie (which I don't think it was). They got the Mad King off the throne, so that was a plus.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Does fucking your family count as activating Targ culture and customs?
Jon left against the wishes of most everyone in the North including his own sister. Hes going to come back with news that hes bending the knee to a Targaryean. Even if Jon has a smart ass "Imma bend the knee.. in marriage.. Daenerys Stormborn of the House Targaryen, First of Her Name, the Unburnt, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains, and Mother of Dragons, will you marry me?" thats not going to go over at all once the North discovers hes a Targaryean.
Is it though? Far more innocent people died during Tywin Lannister's sacking of KL than probably all the lords Aerys had executed due to his paranoia.
If the North, after everything Jon has done for them and with the dead marching on them as we speak, decide to huff and puff over Jon's Targaryen heritage, he needs to get his immediate family on a boat to safety, and tell these asshats to deal with the Night Kings themselves. Fuck dying for stupid people like this.
cartographer
Member
Isn't this sort of a weird way to look at it though? If you want to get down to it Aerys's actions were always going to result in war, right? He burned a major lord and his son alive.
All the deaths in that war are on him and his insanity.
VindicatorZ
Member
Plus, it's not like he didn't try and have the entirety of King's Landing blown to kingdom come. Only reason he didn't was Jaime killed him.
I thought Robert went to war primarily because he loved Lyanna and thought she was captured/abused?
I'm not well versed in the book lore though, it's been years since I read the first two or three. Just going off of what was presented in the show (S1).
Would he really have started a war because he just didn't really like him? (genuinely asking)
I was talking more in that if Ned's brother never went down to KL so hot headed, the notion that the war would have happened anyway due to Robert, and that the end conclusion being that removing Aerys was for the better, is really not something I agree with. Remember, I'm talking specifdically about Robert starting the war himself even if he knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped. If cooler head prevailed and they waited to see what Rhaegar would respond with, that would have been the better option for the realm. Robert's reign might have been mostly peaceful for a while, but his stupidity plunged the kingdom into a darkness that is undoubtedly worse than anything Aerys ever did. Cersei alone probably killed more people in the Sept by herself.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
What has Jon done for them? Yes he helped take back Winterfell but it was Sansa that saved the day.
As the viewer we know Jon has done more with regard to the undead threat but outside of the Wildlings the rest of the North doesnt really believe or have a reason to be grateful to Jon in particular. He has the right blood and genitalia. And next season he wont even have the right blood. The North hasnt seen Hardhome though. Hopefully S08E01 is called Winterfell.
cartographer
Member
You're putting the "if cooler heads prevailed" thing only on one side of the situation though, and for some reason it's not the guy that was batshit insane and was burning people just for the hell of it.
Life "if cooler heads prevailed" Aerys would have understood the concern and gotten to the bottom of it. But he was batshit insane and burned people instead, so he started a war that cost a lot of people their lives.
edit: Like, who was the unreasonable person in the situation here? The family demanding to know where one of their members was or the dude who burned them because he was insane?
The lie was that Rhaegar was a villainous rapist and Lyanna his helpless captive. Sure, war was probably inevitable since people were itching to be rid of the Mad King, but Rhaegar and Lyanna were the catalysts that set everything in motion. Robert was either completely oblivious to the fact that Lyanna didn't love him or too stubborn to let himself imagine the truth. Regardless, Robert's victory ensured that his false version of Lyanna's "kidnapping" became fact.
Even if females had equal footing, Dany is still behind Jon.
Rhaegar was a giant asshole but people are suddenly like "but they were in love!" No he wasn't in love with her, he was obsessed with prophecy and not only went after a woman betrothed to another man, but forsake his own wife and left his children to become bastards.
There is nothing redeeming about Rhaegar.
Yeah, getting together with your mates and marching on the capital issuing demands to the king to do as you command, has never turned out well for anyone ever. Everyone and their mothers knew how batty Aerys was. So why did Ned's brother think rolling down to KL and issuing demands at him was a wise move? When someone is crazy, it's upon the non crazy people to not blow the situation up. Rhaegar by all accounts was a stand up guy, so why jump to the conclusion he kidnapped and raped her?
I wonder how many squats were done in prep to form it
DarkJediKnight
Member
War likely would have happened. But Bran is right. It was built on a lie. If the Starks knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, Rikard and Brandon don't go to King's Landing to demand Lyanna back the way they did.
cartographer
Member
Ultimately though, if the dude wasn't crazy and burning people alive, things would be different. You keep putting this on other people, but it was ultimately his craziness that caused that. And if he's so far gone that people can't even ask where their family members are or else he'll burn them alive, then the answer probably isn't "appease him, wait for him to die, hope he doesn't bomb the city." If you want to focus on his personal bodycount instead of his insanity that caused the entire continent to erupt into chaos, then the only reason it is low is because people killed him.
Rhaegar was supposedly a stand-up guy, but just abandoned his wife and children and ran off with another woman, which understandably is going to raise suspicious. And did it without saying anything to her family.
I haven't said anything about it being a lie or not.
Yeah that last bit was fucking weird. They're both idiots. How do Lyanna and Rhaegar not know that her family would freak out?
Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
Yeah I picture her saying that it's his right and then he talks about how the people who follow her didn't do it for a name and she will be the best leader and is therefore his leader and bends the knee
cartographer
Member
Well Lyanna's a Stark, a family of known idiots and Rhaegar's the result of inbreeding, so maybe our standards are too high.
I don't remember hearing that Rhaegar was "obsessed with prophecy," but I'm not trying to claim he was the biggest hero to ever grace Westeros. He clearly helped cause a giant clusterfuck regardless of his intentions.
Also Bran said that Rhaegar loved her. I'm gonna take the 3-Eyed Raven's word over yours, sorry.
How awesome would it be for Jon's story. One of the only dudes worthy enough to sit on the throne who refuses it because he genuinely believes Danny deserves it.
A true king
Jon doesn't want to be King in the North, Jon definetly wouldn't want the throne. However, I don't think Dany will make it and I could see him claiming it in her memory. We know Jon won't sacrifice duty over want or love, and he'd be sitting on a throne of bones. It sounds predictable but inevitable.
I don't remember hearing that Rhaegar was "obsessed with prophecy," but I'm not trying to claim he was the biggest hero to ever grace Westeros. He clearly helped cause a giant clusterfuck regardless of his intentions.
Also Bran said that Rhaegar loved her. I'm gonna take the 3-Eyed Raven's word over yours, sorry.
Interesting how that whole "he loved her...she loved him" was narrated with Jon and Dany as stand ins.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
After watching those lore videos from the Blu-Ray releases im really curious as to what actually went down at the Battle of the Trident.. in specific the fight between Robert and Rhaegar. Robert Baratheon narrating his version of events sounds super sketchy after knowing what we now know.
What do you mean?
Robert probably won in a straight-up fight. He was one of the best fighters in the war.
It's almost like it was intentional for something.
It was so freaking cute I live for cheesy shit like that.
Less of a duel and more just meeting each other on the battlefield. Ned said he specifically looked for Arthur.