This is rather presumptuous is it not? The episode literally ended on that scene so we have no idea what results from it. Why do you assume that Theon is going to be unshaped by what happened? I think the fact that he was there at all and how the camera focused on him at the end is a sign that this event is going to wake him up.
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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 5 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
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This is rather presumptuous is it not? The episode literally ended on that scene so we have no idea what results from it. Why do you assume that Theon is going to be unshaped by what happened? I think the fact that he was there at all and how the camera focused on him at the end is a sign that this event is going to wake him up.
BigJonsson
Member
Ser Pounce will save Marge
Yeah, even naive ned stark had a compliment of his own men to guard him (or try at least0
Cersei has had complete comtrol over the King's guard ever sicne Robert died. It's probably mostly, if not all, Lannsiter men by now,
After all, he grew up with Sansa. She's basically his sister. There's no way this won't change Theon on a profound level.
Reek being turned into Reek at all and not just being killed by Ramsey was a clear sign that he was going to snap at some point. His arc hasn't exactly been subtle. He was never going to be Reek forever, this much has been obvious from the beginning.
And yeah, sure, this rape scene can be a huge turning point for Sansa's character, and everything can come back around to make perfect sense from a storytelling perspective. But, given how Sansa's been treated since...well, day 1, I'm not holding my breath on that.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
I'm almost afraid to say it... but I think this is the lowest point... and from here on out she will be seeking vengeance. But who knows... she'll probably die next episode.
ComputerBlue
Member
That's exactly how I saw it.
Not to mention he gave Sansa away using Theon of house Greyjoy, not Reek.
I did expect him to do something then and there, but the scene as uncomfortable as it was served it's suppose and like I said before, I think we're going to have to watch Sansa get tortured a few more times before he snaps out of it because it's looking like she's not going to change.
DangerMouse
Member
Yeah
The notion that Sansa's character hasn't seen any growth is patently absurd. She is far from a simple plot device to show how crazy the other nobles all are
RoninChaos
Member
Can't view your video in mobile.
Nameless
Member
Seriously, that's the point. This world fucking sucks and will corrupt and tarnish everyone in it.
ComputerBlue
Member
I think you're forgetting how Sansa used to act. Before Joffrey gave her a taste of the all the bullshit going on in the world she acted like a spoiled brat and wasn't very nice to most of the people who cared for her.
Not that it means she deserves to have all of this bad shit happen to her, just wanted to point it out.
RustyNails
Member
Guys we don't know if Ramsay finishes or not....Maybe Reek will stab him in next week's episode.
Compare her to any other character with similar amounts of screen time and see what you find. Obviously she's not the exact same person, obviously she's stronger. But she's still in the same position now as she was in Season 1, and it's simply dull. Think of where Tyrion or Dany or Arya or Jon have been in that same time, or the arc that even more minor characters like Jorah or Sam have had. Sansa has progressed ludicrously little in 5 seasons.
Seriously, that's the point. This world fucking sucks and will corrupt and tarnish everyone in it.
That's pretty much the point or the series all right, and always has been, but you know what? They used to make that point in interesting ways. That's why I watched. They're not doing that anymore.
I didn't get upset at the red wedding. I thought it was brilliant. But now I'm bored, and feeling like the outrageous cruelty is just to make me keep watching a story moving nowhere.
I don't want a happy ending. I want good storytelling.
The growth means nothing until we actually see some results. Which hopefully will finally come by the end of this season.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Khuu Khuu Khuu.
After five seasons I'm kinda shocked to see people who are shocked that bad shit continues to happen to weak people who have no power to change their situation.
I'm sorry, but you're going to have to provide examples of this.
At most Sansa was incredibly naive to the reality of what was happening around her. But I don't ever remember Sansa being spoiled and cruel.
ComputerBlue
Member
Seriously, that's the point. This world fucking sucks and will corrupt and tarnish everyone in it.
Nameless nails it again. As always.
Seriously, that's the point. This world fucking sucks and will corrupt and tarnish everyone in it.
Who said anything about this needing to be a happy ending?
This is about shitty storytelling. I think the people disappointed by this episode/season have made that pretty clear.
Fucking bingo.
ComputerBlue
Member
I never said she was cruel, if you find that in my post i'll dig deep to try to cover my tracks, but for reference of her acting like a spoiled brat you can watch this which contains all her scenes from the first season and you'll see, yes she was definitely naive, but also rude many times.
Wow. What don't you understand about SHOW DISCUSSION ONLY? Reported for spoilers.
BigJonsson
Member
D
Deleted member 102362
Unconfirmed Member
And Ramsay's previous-ish GF did mention to Sansa during the bath scene that one of his former lovers got pregnant, which bored him.
Foreshadowing?
Tyrion and Jorah were great this episode. I love how the show can focus in on two characters and just let them play off of each other.
Vire
Member
The point is to literally undue two full seasons worth of work with Sansa's gradual ascent into becoming a strong willed character?
Seriously, that's the point. This world fucking sucks and will corrupt and tarnish everyone in it.
Sounds like you missed the point in what people are complaining about. It's fucking garbage infuriating storytelling.
ComputerBlue
Member
You, mind reader.
I was thinking the same thing. Never in my life would I have guessed to hear the words Cock and Merchant used together.
Fix The Scientist
Member
I don't want a happy ending, just good writing, something this season has seriously lacked.
Seriously, that's the point. This world fucking sucks and will corrupt and tarnish everyone in it.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
It's not shitty story telling.
It's called staying true to the world that the characters live in.
Sansa is the key to the north, she has been used from day one and has zero power. She's not going to just have some magic arc where she becomes amazingly powerful and fucks everyone up.
She has gotten more strong willed and learned how to play the game somewhat, but the most she can do is act tough when she needs to look tough.
ComputerBlue
Member
Sansa has some power. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the power to avoid having sex with her husband on her wedding night. She was resigned to that happening based on what she said to Littlefinger before he left, but Ramsey forcing Theon to watch was an extremely nasty shock that is going to have her rethinking how she needs to act, and how quickly. I expect that candle to be lit very soon.
Seriously, that's the point. This world fucking sucks and will corrupt and tarnish everyone in it.
Ok? And people have every right to say they're getting tired of the way it's being depicted.
Time will tell as to whether or not Sansa's storyline will deliver the emotional catharsis that most other characters' have but to this point, there's been zero.
The Silver
Member
Didn't watch the episode yet but it really turned my stomach to hear Sansa got raped.
With all she's been through up to this point I don't think a rape is needed to push her over the edge or whatever the plan is, she's been over the edge for a while.
Like I said I haven't the episode in the full context so my opinion may change but for now it just sounds like unneccesary cruelty.
With all she's been through up to this point I don't think a rape is needed to push her over the edge or whatever the plan is, she's been over the edge for a while.
Like I said I haven't the episode in the full context so my opinion may change but for now it just sounds like unneccesary cruelty.
Being raped by Ramsey doesn't mean she is no longer a strong willed character.
Not sure why you think it's so crazy that both Theon and Sansa will change as a direct result of what happened. Seems inevitable to me.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
How is being raped destroys her build up of her arc?
She got married and had to have sex with her husband. Just because she experienced a horrible event doesn't mean everything is undone.
Vire
Member
I need to walk away from this thread, I might pop a blood vessel.
Really? Where have we seen Sansa's stronger character, other than her telling a younger girl to leave her alone?
Sansa's just been spinning in circles. The nature of the circumstances she's been in, and her approach to them, hasn't changed since season 1.
As someone said earlier, look at pretty much EVERY other character (except maybe Cersei) and observe the nature of their stories now versus season 1. Sansa's traveled from Winterfell, to Kiings Landing, to the Veil, and back to Winterfell, but it's like she hasn't moved at all. And whenever there is a major development with her character, it's her being tortured somehow. It's fucking old.
You do realize that is expected in the world of the show, right? What happened to Sansa is not surprising.
RoninChaos
Member
Exactly. The fact that so many people in here are like "WTF IS THIS SHIT?!" should say something.
This reminds me of sons of anarchy's last few seasons in a lot of ways. Everything and everyone moving around the board with nothing really happening. Violence in place of storytelling because the story is going no where and has lost direction.
The only way to avoid it would have been for Sansa or someone else to kill Ramsey at the wedding or before. I guess she's a weak willed character now because she couldn't figure out how to poison him and get away with it... or something.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I feel the story arc is trying to make a point of the once strong but now broken connection between Sansa and Theon. While yes both have been subjected to extreme, ongoing cruelty that seems to exist at times for no reason other than to shock the audience, after several seasons this is the first time they've converged. Shock is an suitable and intentional reaction, but it's impossible to gauge the weight of that shock when you don't know if there's any pay off. Theon and Sansa's arcs have been beaten over the head (Theon was tortured for an entire season), but again, this is where they're converging and their torture in its absolute extreme develops into a single, shared entity. And the reality is that's something we haven't seen, not until now. The tiresome lack of character development is a fine argument, as is frustration with the scene not knowing if there's any real pay off (Reek's total uselessness could very well be the entire point), but yeah.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Lying to the trial people when her aunt went flying was the first major step to changing.
I don't think her being tortured is really character building per say. I've said it before but he's simply the key to the north. That's all that anyone sees in her because to a degree that's her purpose. She has no army, her family is dead and she is surrounded by people who would kill her if she tries to actually do something.
I guess if you don't like that she hasn't had dynamic changes that's fine, but in the world she lives in it's simply the only thing she is really worth, and those who know she's alive know how important she is.
She is what she is, I don't think that's really going to change anytime soon and I'm fine with that. She was introduced as a pawn to start and has never been given an opportunity to change her role.
EDIT: EatChildren pointed out something that's important. Reek and Sansa have both been the end point of extreme cruelty in one way or another. Sansa has had to deal with it sense she was in Kings Landing, but she isn't as broken as Theon. I think seeing those two people who have been brutalized constantly and comparing how they react and survive it is important and interesting.
That's pretty much the definition of being a rude little shit.
ComputerBlue
Member
Now that Ramsay is Lord of Winterfell, Sansa is no longer needed is she? He will retain that title even if she dies.
This is of course assuming that everything thinks she's the last Stark.
If that's the case then things are only going to get worse unless she/theon/stannis does something about it.
Thanks, I was too lazy to find specifics, lol.
This is of course assuming that everything thinks she's the last Stark.
If that's the case then things are only going to get worse unless she/theon/stannis does something about it.
Thanks, I was too lazy to find specifics, lol.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Sure, for title.
But if Sansa dies I don't think the North is really going to give a shit unless she has a kid to continue the Stark blood line. They need Sansa to prevent some type of uprising.
Nameless
Member
We don't know what happens a nanosecond beyond this scene so everything else is conjecture.
People in this thread predicted this very thing. Honestly, what did you think was going to happen on their wedding night? One could argue poor writing would have been to make the sexually inept virgin magically control the sadistic psycopath with her feminine wiles just because conventional story telling dictates someone who's oppressed and/or made to suffer should automatically have some redemptive or heroic moment. Again I ask, What did you expect to happen?
And in context with Littlefinger's maneuvering this episode, I say it's quite effective writing. He sent her to live with monsters as part of his grand scheme to become Warden of The North, after she saved him no less.
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