• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 5 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Beyond that, I still don't understand half of the most important characters motivations.

Why does Tyrion want to help the mother of dragons? .

He doesn't.
Why would Sansa agree to marry into the family who murdered her mother and brother?
She trusted Little Finger's speech about taking back the North. After she was in Winterfell she had no other option, if she said no she could have been killed or forced to wed.
Why does Jorah think that returning Tyrion to Dany will earn him favor?
He basically has nothing else in his life after he saw Dany walk out of the fire pit. He's in love
Why does Dany and Cersei repeatedly make incredibly obvious and stupid mistakes in playing the "game"?
To be fair, Cersie is doing a decent job taking out people in Kings Landing. While you can see how she completely overextended how arm and gave the Faith too much power, she has been effective. Dany just sucks at being a leader and has been shown to be incompetent, which at this point I can only think is intentional if you compare her execution scene to Jon Snows execution scene.
 

mujun

Member
And she'd just risk Jaime, their alliance, and her daughter all for some potential theatrics back home? I don't know, doesn't sound plausible to me.

I thought she had fallen out of love with Jaime. Not sure about the alliance part, you might be right and him being in Dorne might affect it. As for her daughter, I wonder if she could have just requested her return to King's Landing? Maybe a rescue mission was her only option.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
I think Season 5 is very average for GoT standards. I dunno, but after the Red Wedding it all seemed to lose focus and purpose somewhat. Fun, but I miss the S1-3 level of excellence.

It seems its more about the characters now.

Sand Snakes introduction was laughable, but the fight even more so.
 

Crispy75

Member
I'll opt for Brienne. There has to be a lit candle in the tower at some point, otherwise it was a waste of dialogue.
The candle will be lit, brienne will come running, but will end up facing Stannis. Ramsay sees it happen, thinks Sansa set it up, tries to take revenge, then Reek snaps and rages on Ramsay. I reckon.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Beyond that, I still don't understand half of the most important characters motivations.

Why does Tyrion want to help the mother of dragons?

Why would Sansa agree to marry into the family who murdered her mother and brother?

Why does Jorah think that returning Tyrion to Dany will earn him favor?

Why does Dany and Cersei repeatedly make incredibly obvious and stupid mistakes in playing the "game"?

Mostly everything in the show feels like some sort of contrivance to bring in the major characters all together on screen at once. I'd love for someone to try and break down my questions with reasonable answers. I'd be more than happy to listen.

I feel some of these have an answer...

Tyrion has nowhere else to go where he won't be actively hunted, and he's proven himself an intelligent, cunning, and compassionate man. Perfect fit for Dany.

Sansa has been promised a chance at revenge if she's patient. She knows that Littlefinger has a plan, one which involves her staying in Winterfell for reals.

Jorah has nothing else to live for... Might as well give it a shot. At least Tyrion points out that it's a poor plan, at best.

Cersei thinks she can be her father, but she can't. She'll learn that soon, I'd imagine.

The Dany arc has been terrible. There is little character progression and she's never really doing anything. Biggest failure of the writers to this point, I'd argue. Like letting Barristan die because she's literally doing nothing and him even less.
 

Asami208

Banned
He doesn't.

She trusted Little Finger's speech about taking back the North. After she was in Winterfell she had no other option, if she said no she could have been killed or forced to wed.

He basically has nothing else in his life after he saw Dany walk out of the fire pit. He's in love

To be fair, Cersie is doing a decent job taking out people in Kings Landing. While you can see how she completely overextended how arm and gave the Faith too much power, she has been effective. Dany just sucks at being a leader and has been shown to be incompetent, which at this point I can only think is intentional if you compare her execution scene to Jon Snows execution scene.

WTF would she trust LF's word on ANYTHING? She sure didn't seem to trust him last season, she just felt that he was the best of a bunch of bad options.
 
I've found the writing, choreography, general direction of the narrative and some of scenes rather stupid of late. The whole religious fanatics getting to ultimate power so quickly, and to the extent that the King's own army seems to be missing, the King's complete ineptitude, the awful Sand Snakes, the idiocy of Jaime's mission and the way it was all shown. Honestly feels like the series is sort of going to shit. No idea if GRM or the shows writers are to blame, as I have not read the books.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of this.

I thought that Jaime's mission was meant to be stupid? Isn't it a ploy by Cersei to get rid him out of King's Landing so she can run things the way she wants to?

Was Jaime ever really in her way?

Beyond that, I still don't understand half of the most important characters motivations.

Why does Tyrion want to help the mother of dragons?

Why would Sansa agree to marry into the family who murdered her mother and brother?

Why does Jorah think that returning Tyrion to Dany will earn him favor?

Why does Dany and Cersei repeatedly make incredibly obvious and stupid mistakes in playing the "game"?

Mostly everything in the show feels like some sort of contrivance to bring in the major characters all together on screen at once. I'd love for someone to try and break down my questions with reasonable answers. I'd be more than happy to listen.

Tyrions motives were explained when he was talking to the bald guy with eyes everywhere; how Tyrion could either waste his time drinking wine or at least try to meet this woman, listen to hear and help her. Tyrion didn't seem particularly interested but felt like he should go along.

Sansa had no choice, really, the way I see it.

Jorah is dumb though, I'll give you that one.

I don't think Dany is trying to play any game, she's just inexperienced. I think Cersei is trying to fill her father shoes now and trying to do what's best for the Lannisters, however I'm not su sure she's doing a good job at it.
 

Vire

Member
He doesn't.

She trusted Little Finger's speech about taking back the North. After she was in Winterfell she had no other option, if she said no she could have been killed or forced to wed.

He basically has nothing else in his life after he saw Dany walk out of the fire pit. He's in love

To be fair, Cersie is doing a decent job taking out people in Kings Landing. While you can see how she completely overextended how arm and gave the Faith too much power, she has been effective. Dany just sucks at being a leader and has been shown to be incompetent, which at this point I can only think is intentional if you compare her execution scene to Jon Snows execution scene.
First, thanks for the reply.

1. If Tyrion doesn't want to help, then why is making this huge trek across the entire world to meet her? "He's got nothing better to do" is pretty poor character motivations in my opinion.

2. Hmm, you really think Peter would have imposed violence on Sansa if she refused? Maybe I guess... My hope is that she's playing the game at a higher level than even Little Finger and is two steps ahead in her plans for the Boltons..

3. As for Jorah, I'm just confused as to why Dany would even care about Tyrion in the first place. Why would she give a shit if he brought a dwarf to her footstep.

4. Cersei and Dany being dumb doesn't bother me as much, but some of the decisions each of them made have really made me scratch my head.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Jorah just seems to be desperate and tries to gain trust back by capturing one of his former allies. its dumb, but the man is completely desperate.

I think Cersei was doing a good job. She manages to catch the ever cunning Oleanna quite off guard. Dany however, I think shes dumb and hypocrite.
 
tvVEsg0.jpg

Family was doomed when he was killed and Tyrion left. Cersei and Jaime are idiots.

Now that Tommen is confirmed to be a gutless moron I don't think Olena cares and is willing to toss him under the bus along with Cercei. All she has to do is raise the point that Tommen was born out of incest. The High Sparrow is not under the power of Cercei and that will come back to bite her in the ass. I think it will be the end of her and Tommen. Maybe Little Finger knows how to prove the incest and works with the Tyrels again for more political gain.
 

demolitio

Member
Beyond that, I still don't understand half of the most important characters motivations.

Why does Tyrion want to help the mother of dragons?

He doesn't. He wasn't exactly going there for her sake but to escape Westeros after he did the deed. Varys wants him to go with Dany so he did since he didn't have a choice at that point. He's a fugitive with no money so he can't do the things he loves so what else would he do worth the risk of being caught? Dany can protect him if she deems his information worthwhile. He's got no money, no friends, people looking for him with Lannister spies all over the world, and while he doesn't originally want to go to Dany, it's a way for him to either get it over with or get some protection and possibly repay the sins his family committed.

Why would Sansa agree to marry into the family who murdered her mother and brother?

Because that's what Littlefinger told her to do to reclaim the North in her family's honor. She's not going to take it over by force, but by cunning and her best option is to marry into the family and then make her moves. It's not like she wanted to do this as she clearly showed us she didn't when LF told us. LF is the one making the moves here and having a Stark in his corner is a lot of power. Sansa is going to grow and learn to play his sort of game compared to the moves his family made that only revolved around justice in the eyes of the law, but justice rarely works that way.

Why does Jorah think that returning Tyrion to Dany will earn him favor?

Because he doesn't know that Tyrion is a fugitive at first and thinks of him only as one of the enemies that took the throne from Dany so he'd be a good prize for her, whether it be as a trophy or for information since he's privy to Westeros and his family's workings. He's a fool blinded by love and just got kicked out of the family so to speak so he's desperate to win her back. In his eyes, bringing her a trophy is better than nothing.

Why does Dany and Cersei repeatedly make incredibly obvious and stupid mistakes in playing the "game"?

Because they're not perfect? Why does the President make mistakes in real life? Why did Frank Underwood make mistakes in House of Cards? Dany is a young woman with no experience in leading so she has to learn as she goes. She didn't get to learn from her father and family but lived life on the run so she's bound to make mistakes, especially in a different culture that has a lot of nuances Westeros doesn't have.

Cersei makes mistakes because she's blinded by one thing, the prophecy and how she's bound to lose her family yet she doesn't realize she's losing them because of her own actions. It's sort of self-fulfilling so she thinks she can make moves to prevent it, but those moves are what causes her family pain. She's blinded by her own ego and isn't looking out for the kingdom, but her family.


Mostly everything in the show feels like some sort of contrivance to bring in the major characters all together on screen at once. I'd love for someone to try and break down my questions with reasonable answers. I'd be more than happy to listen.

My answers in bold.

Sure, there's plenty of things that feel contrived but a lot of stories have those issues. None of these feel out of left field though and their motivations are seen in previous scenes.
 
Jorah just seems to be desperate and tries to gain trust back by capturing one of his former allies. its dumb, but the man is completely desperate.

I agree, he's desperate and will do anything at this point. But I'm guessing that kidnapping Tyrion would have earned some favor because he's a Lannister and his brother killed the mad king, who happens to be someone pretty close in relation to Dany, lol.
 

Kusagari

Member
I think Cersei was doing a good job. She manages to catch the ever cunning Oleanna quite off guard. Dany however, I think shes dumb and hypocrite.

I'm not sure if Cersei is catching Olenna off guard because she's cunning. She's catching Olenna off guard because Olenna is baffled at how stupid the moves she's making are.

I think Olenna realizes clearly what she's dealing with after this episode.
 
First, thanks for the reply.

1. If Tyrion doesn't want to help, then why is making this huge trek across the entire world to meet her? "He's got nothing better to do" is pretty poor character motivations in my opinion.

2. Hmm, you really think Peter would have imposed violence on Sansa if she refused? Maybe I guess... My hope is that she's playing the game at a higher level than even Little Finger and is two steps ahead in her plans for the Boltons..

3. As for Jorah, I'm just confused as to why Dany would even care about Tyrion in the first place. Why would she give a shit if he brought a dwarf to her footstep.

4. Cersei and Dany being dumb doesn't bother me as much, but some of the decisions each of them made have really made me scratch my head.

He kinda killed his father and had Varrs give him an escape. It wasn't his idea to go see Dany and has been fighting the idea from the start.

No, I'm saying that if Sansa refused to wed after meeting the Boltons violence would have been imposed to make her wed. LF manipulated her to go to Winterfell, that much is for sure.

Yea, I'm kinda loss why Jorah thinks Tyrion would make Dany take him back, even Tyrion thinks it's a stupid plan.

Cersei is pretty much running out of options. Her house is only powerful now because of the crown, they have no money and apparently no food source to make it through winter. Her personal conquest is personal and completely short sited. Dany is simply dumb and incapable of being a proper leader. Cersie was never a good leader or really good at doing what her father did. She's going to make the same mistake that Joffery did and get power hungry and do something stupid that's going to cause more shit.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Dat Necromancer mang, I need more of him lol. The guy is nuts and could be an ace in the hole for Cersei.

I'm not sure if Cersei is catching Olenna off guard because she's cunning. She's catching Olenna off guard because Olenna is baffled at how stupid the moves she's making are.

I think Olenna realizes clearly what she's dealing with after this episode.

In the big picture its dumb what she does, but she knows the tyrells will play her like a fiddle and she refuses that. I still think she can be a force when teamed up with LF.
 

Vire

Member
My answers in bold.

Sure, there's plenty of things that feel contrived but a lot of stories have those issues. None of these feel out of left field though and their motivations are seen in previous scenes.

Appreciate the detailed response, it definitely makes me feel better about a few of the motivations, but some are still a little bit iffy to me.
I agree, he's desperate and will do anything at this point. But I'm guessing that kidnapping Tyrion would have earned some favor because he's a Lannister and his brother killed the mad king, who happens to be someone pretty close in relation to Dany, lol.
Which is all the more reason I find Tyrion seeking out Dany a bit puzzling. He knows she despises Lannisters, what makes him think that she would not just kill him on- sight? Does he really think she'll embrace him with open arms or something? I guess her knowing that he killed Tywin might make her more receptive.
 
I'm not sure if Cersei is catching Olenna off guard because she's cunning. She's catching Olenna off guard because Olenna is baffled at how stupid the moves she's making are.

I think Olenna realizes clearly what she's dealing with after this episode.

Yeah pretty much. Cersei's alienated Casterly Rock, now she's alienated her remaining ally. Littlefinger will turn on her as soon as he gets what he wants.

Good job Cersei.

ctfUI.gif
 

demolitio

Member
In the big picture its dumb what she does, but she knows the tyrells will play her like a fiddle and she refuses that. I still think she can be a force when teamed up with LF.

She's definitely being dumb since she's biting the hand that feeds them so to speak. The Lannisters aren't worth anything but the titles they have right now and she's going at it with the family that actually has the money and kept the Lannisters afloat during the war. She's also using radicals to get her way when those radicals could easily turn on her for her crimes against the faith.

I think she's being incredibly stupid and the fact that Olenna is back in town tells me we're going to see some of her moves this season. :D

It's like a kid having huge loans to pay but a rich friend is helping him out yet the kid ruins his relationship with his friend and having no way to pay back his debts.

It would be ironic considering the "Lannisters always pay their debts" but if they keep this up, they'll be in trouble.
 

Ferrio

Banned
Appreciate the detailed response, it definitely makes me feel better about a few of the motivations, but some are still a little bit iffy to me.

Which is all the more reason I find Tyrion seeking out Dany a bit puzzling. He knows she despises Lannisters, what makes him think that she would not just kill him on- sight? Does he really think she'll embrace him with open arms or something? I guess her knowing that he killed Tywin might make her more receptive.

Wasn't his idea, was Varys's. He seemed content to live the rest of his life drinking wine on the beach.
 

Vire

Member
@Vire: You should see mine and Maxim726X's answers above as well :)
I read through everyones! Thank you.

It's difficult for me to respond to every person, but I appreciate the help. I love this series, so I rather try and make it work in my head than to question all the major players motivations every step of the way.
 

Game4life

Banned
I've found the writing, choreography, general direction of the narrative and some of scenes rather stupid of late. The whole religious fanatics getting to ultimate power so quickly, and to the extent that the King's own army seems to be missing, the King's complete ineptitude, the awful Sand Snakes, the idiocy of Jaime's mission and the way it was all shown. Honestly feels like the series is sort of going to shit. No idea if GRM or the shows writers are to blame, as I have not read the books.

This. All the characters are becoming really boring now. I dont give a shit who wins or loses anymore. No one interesting to root for.
 

Curufinwe

Member
Beyond that, I still don't understand half of the most important characters motivations.

1. Why does Tyrion want to help the mother of dragons?

2. Why would Sansa agree to marry into the family who murdered her mother and brother?

3. Why does Jorah think that returning Tyrion to Dany will earn him favor?

4. Why does Dany and Cersei repeatedly make incredibly obvious and stupid mistakes in playing the "game"?

1. He hasn't said he'll help her. He agreed to go meet her at the insistence of the guy who saved his life.

2. Her best chance at revenge is from the inside, not standing on the sidelines.

3. Because she despises the Lannisters and he is a Lannister. It might not get her to forgive him but it's the only thing he has to offer right now.

4. You will need to specify. Both of them are still alive and in power which is more than you can say for some
male players like Ned and Robb.
 

Volimar

Member
The guy was his squire. Isn't it completely plausible that he could have seen the birthmark in some fashion not related to hot man on man action?
 
I hope Theon kills Ramsay, I really, really do.

Yeah, I hope so too. Ramsay and his father really are huge pieces of nasty shit.

What an ending to the episode as well. Alfie Allens performance is some of the best in the entire 5 seasons. He is fantastic!

Like others have mentioned a pretty alright episode. Some good points, the ending being one of the them, but still a step back from the last episode. I thought episode 5, with it's-
game-of-thrones-stannis.gif
- was the beginning of shit starting to get picked up and be great again, but this kinda slowed down once again, even though there are some good threads being created.

Also that fight scene in Dorne was pretty awfully shot. Everyone looked completely incompetent and overall the choreography seemed amateur. :/

bronn-2.gif
 
Which is all the more reason I find Tyrion seeking out Dany a bit puzzling. He knows she despises Lannisters, what makes him think that she would not just kill him on- sight? Does he really think she'll embrace him with open arms or something? I guess her knowing that he killed Tywin might make her more receptive.

I was under the impression that they were assuming that she knew that Tywin had been killed and that Tyrion had killed him. But last night after he revealed it to Jorah I'm thinking she might not know who did it. Sure Jorah's been out of the loop but considering how hard Varys was trying to hide his identity then I would have assumed nearly everyone knew, including Jorah.
 
Think you guys are thinking too much into this. Everyone knows loras fucks guys, they were just going through the motions.

Well everyone knows Cersei fucks Jaime I'm just wondering when the High Sparrow will turn on her. He doesn't seem like he is under her control.
 

Belfast

Member
It's weird how we penalize writers when their characters do something considered dumb, emotional, or illogical, but are so susceptible to acting the same way in real life. I suppose we want these characters to be "better" than us, because we know there is a hand guiding their fates, but if they were all perfect, logical beings, we wouldn't recognize them. They wouldn't be human.

Sure, it's frustrating when a character changes or lacks motivation purely because the writer can't think of any other way to get them where they want them to go, but it is not always (or even most of the time) bad writing. Characters must fail, must do the wrong thing sometimes, because that is simply realistic.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Just when I thought I couldn't hate Cersei more.... smh

I absolutely expected that from Ramsey, anybody shocked by his actions last night haven't been watching the same show the past seasons

Jaime needs to die already, haven't cared for him for a while now.
 
First, thanks for the reply.

1. If Tyrion doesn't want to help, then why is making this huge trek across the entire world to meet her?

He isn't. Varys smuggled him out of King's Landing before he could be executed. Varys is the one who wanted him to meet Dany. Tyrion on multiple occasions expressed zero interest in meeting or helping her despite Varys' many attempts to convince him that she was the ruler Westeros needed. Tyrion just wanted to drink, and then Jorah kidnapped him.

As for Jorah, I'm just confused as to why Dany would even care about Tyrion in the first place. Why would she give a shit if he brought a dwarf to her footstep.

Maybe she wouldn't care. But Jorah is desperate. But he was at one point Hand of the King and is still a family member of the ruling family of Westeros. Of course that would be hugely valuable (Jorah didn't know Tyrion was on the run).
 

totoro'd

Member
Ugh i've been a huge fan of the show but after the last episode i might very well be done with it, i never thought i'd feel that way, even after certain character deaths i still hung on, but i think this is it for me :/
 

Kusagari

Member
Just when I thought I couldn't hate Cersei more.... smh

I absolutely expected that from Ramsey, anybody shocked by his actions last night haven't been watching the same show the past seasons

Jaime needs to die already, haven't cared for him for a while now.

Jamie honestly is the most pointless character in the show right now to me.

The Dorne subplot just feels like it was created so he had something to do.
 

effzee

Member
Something I just thought of when Tyrion mentions to Jorah that his father is dead...do we know why his dad was at the Wall?

Wasn't a noble man and only criminals end up at the wall?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom