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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 5 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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I have no idea what you mean by taking it too seriously. Do you think we're watching a comedy here? Or that fantasy doesn't deserve to be taken seriously? Or that the characters as depicted haven't been entirely human and thus deserving of our empathy and compassion? Or that I'm not entitled to have an opinion regarding the show or make decisions with what I spend my time on?
It doesn't matter that it's fantasy or any other genre - the depiction of a parent murdering their underaged child for any reason is rare in fiction. It's usually portrayed as a result of mental illness or trauma if it happens. To show a parent coldly murdering their underaged child for personal gain is close to unprecedented. Actually depicting a parent burning their underaged child alive (with screams and all) for personal gain, is, I would suggest, entirely unprecedented among the hundreds of thousands of pieces of modern fiction, let alone super-high-profile mainstream televisual fiction, and therefore I wouldn't be surprised that the reactions are somewhat extreme.
I find the depiction of violence against children disgusting and distressing, especially so when extreme suffering and pain is made obvious, as it was here. Always have, always will. Unless there is an astonishingly good and meaningful context for it, you'll almost always lose me once you turn down that road. I make no apologies for feeling that way at all.
Hey, I'll be here, but there's a difference between being hyped for the next episode, which is where I've been for almost 5 years, and feeling like it's an obligation due to having spent said 5 years on it. I feel like I've got a cynical eye for the whole thing at this stage after last week, can't help it.
They should just stop trying to make these characters spin and roll uselessly, when they clearly don't have the skill nor the time to do it properly and convincingly.
This isn't The Raid 2, where fight choreographies need to be incredibly larger than life, and where they have stuntmen in prominent roles, with a lot of time (months) dedicated just to one fight scene.
Just go for a visceral, realistic looking, grounded choreography, and it'll work that much better.
Every time Jorah would spin to attack, in that pit, it was immediately silly, whereas his other attacks, were pretty alright.
And while the Dorne Snakes fight was just shit all around, there was a lot of useless flair there, too.
Always-honest
Banned
The whole Dorne shit is so amateuristic. dialogues, acting, choreography,... everything.
It really stands out in bad bad way.
But boobies....
CountAntonius
Member
Watching old clips. Probably my favorite of the series. So well acted. Tywin is missed.
Arya and Tywin
Arya and Tywin
A girl doesn't need to be taught how to lie.
I don't see Stannis winning now, I think something's gonna go tits up or Melisandre's been leading him on or something. So he has to deal with losing and having burned his daughter alive.
The CG was spotty at the end there, and Clarke showed zero emotion for that whole bloody scene. I thought it was a cool scene aside from that (though an unsullied definitely got burned alive by Drogon though they cut -right- before the flame hit him).
Still can't figure out what's going on with Dorne, something's up and I'm sure it's leading somewhere because at the moment it's all been too cut and dry "Oh you infiltrated us but you're sorry so accept my more than reasonable terms and you can be on your way".
EDIT: Oh and I still don't get how Melisandre's magic works either but maybe that's the point as it's as much a mystery to Stannis as it is to us, we just have to trust.
The CG was spotty at the end there, and Clarke showed zero emotion for that whole bloody scene. I thought it was a cool scene aside from that (though an unsullied definitely got burned alive by Drogon though they cut -right- before the flame hit him).
Still can't figure out what's going on with Dorne, something's up and I'm sure it's leading somewhere because at the moment it's all been too cut and dry "Oh you infiltrated us but you're sorry so accept my more than reasonable terms and you can be on your way".
EDIT: Oh and I still don't get how Melisandre's magic works either but maybe that's the point as it's as much a mystery to Stannis as it is to us, we just have to trust.
So what crazy (and unlikely) things are we expecting for the finale?
I've got:
Cersei misunderstands the situation again, leading to the death of Tommen and herself, Sparrows take over kings landing. Robo Mountain kills innocents.
Dany finds out that her ex fiance is not only still alive, but the leader of the Harpies. Jorah does a suicide attack/ accidentally infects a character we actually care about.
Arya pretends to be a brothel girl, Sir Meryn tries to buy her, Arya either kills him easily or screws up entirely and Jaqen has to save her.
Stannis murders the Boltons with fire. Sansa finally does something right. Reek becomes Theon again. Brienne is involved. Pod maybe dies.
Olly betrays somebody, Walkers arrive at the wall
Bonus round: A character we thought was dead returns.
I've got:
Cersei misunderstands the situation again, leading to the death of Tommen and herself, Sparrows take over kings landing. Robo Mountain kills innocents.
Dany finds out that her ex fiance is not only still alive, but the leader of the Harpies. Jorah does a suicide attack/ accidentally infects a character we actually care about.
Arya pretends to be a brothel girl, Sir Meryn tries to buy her, Arya either kills him easily or screws up entirely and Jaqen has to save her.
Stannis murders the Boltons with fire. Sansa finally does something right. Reek becomes Theon again. Brienne is involved. Pod maybe dies.
Olly betrays somebody, Walkers arrive at the wall
Bonus round: A character we thought was dead returns.
A girl lulls a man into boredom
A man falls asleep
A girl may grant justice
We are all equal before the manyfaced God.
I agree. You're totally not taking this serious or anything.
GoT is totally a show we should look to for moral guidance and the show writers/book Author has definitely failed us with this unprecedented display of violence. The show used to be so wholesome.
Brofist
Member
Sorry to say she was never that great. The hound carried the scenes with her in the last season.
She spent a lot of time pretending to be a boy, a lot of time pretending to be a serving girl, and all of the last three seasons pretending not to be highborn. Is that acknowledged by this season? Nope.
Same with Sansa's exposure to manipulation. Years in King's Landing with Joffrey and Cersei and watchibg Littlefinger work and pointing out lineage to Ramsay is the best she has?
It's like the writers decided the characters worked best for the plot when they were helpless.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Indeed. I enjoyed these scenes a lot too. Not my favourite, but far from my least favourite.
I see Olly trying to kill Tormund or something like that. Arya is basically what I'd expected was about to happen in ep 9.
Also the Arya thing so far's been a huge letdown. At the end of last season it was great! Arya's finally about to go across the narrow sea and learn to be an assassin, now the whole season's just been her getting mad about being told nothing, and some slow training where she must learn about/kill a guy we don't know or give a shit about, then Meryn reappears and admittedly I couldn't even remember why he's on her list anymore.
She's above and beyond anyone, she cares for noone but herself and her dragons.
But I also had the idea that the SoH didn't want to hurt anyone, except Dany and anyone in their way. Dany takes herself out of the equation, SoH go away?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I would agree on the outrage if
1) Brann wasn't tossed off a tower on the first episode
2) Two poor farmer boys weren't torched when Theon went rouge.
3) If they didn't telegraph the hell out of this and set up the situation to be dramatic irony. We had basically a whole season of foreshadowing that this was coming, the only real twist was Davos being sent away before, and what he is going to do after he learns of what happened.
As for parents killing kids in literature, Oedipus is old and was pretty close to something like this.
Wheelchair dude is cool though. He reminds of a South American drug lord lol.
And Agamemnon sacrificed Iphigenia.
If he had the courage of his conviction he would stop watching the show and stop posting in this thread.
If he had the courage of his conviction he would stop watching the show and stop posting in this thread.
iNvid02
Member
Personally I think it's totally understandable that something like what happened would lose some viewers for the exact reasons he's expressing. Look, guys, at the end of the day this is supposed to be entertainment. People are entertained by different things. For some people it's just not entertaining to have so much constant violence, and the breaking point for people is different depending on the person. I'm entertained by a good story, but I can't say that no matter the level of violence I'd stick around. I have my breaking point, too. I'm sure you guys do, too. That doesn't make him a worse person, and it doesn't mean you should feel like he's insulting your favorite show.
It doesn't mean he's looking to GoT for moral guidance or whatever else. It just means it went too far past his threshold for entertainment.
The show has explored it before, but I don't think you can say any of the prior scenes had nearly the same sort of impact as this. Yes, Theon burned children, and yes that scene did have a lot of impact, but you didn't actually see the act. You saw the aftermath. With Shireen's burning you got to hear her screaming the whole time. That's kind of a big thing for some people.
I'm not criticizing it, either, mind you. I liked the way they did the scene. I liked the impact. It was an escalation from Theon's earlier crime. It made the agony of her mother more real. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that everyone can sit through that and come out hunky dory wanting to see more.
Randy Lanzarote
Member
Because Trant had armour, and a big fucking sword.
Oh of course, thanks for that. I do hate Googling these things in fear of spoilers.
Still, I'm waiting for Syrio to return, maybe next episode
Oh boy, new theory, Syro steps out of the darkness and kills Meryn, YES.
Yeah, it was just a thought and that episode was a big jengatower of facepalm, I didn't catch everything, as my brain was still coping with the stupidity of Jorah's forward roll.
DeathByBacklog
Member
Each occurrence has resulted in a bigger pay off. Sex with Mel (who wouldn't?) produced 1 assassin.
Leaches killed 2 kings.
Burning Shireen will likely result in wiping out Roose's entire army. Perhaps an entire army of smoke babies. YES! Multiple Mel birthing scenes!!!
Boobz looked professional.
I think it was a combination of Drogon not discriminating over who he was burning, putting her own army and innocent civilians at risk. As well as Drogon himself was taking damage staying on the ground trying to protect her.
SIDENOTE
You guys are really analyzing the heck out of this. Sit back, suspend belief, and enjoy. It is, after-all, fantasy.
Haha. I was going to say, isn't the arena just littered in bodies by the end?
Exactly. Words don't mean shit.
Its fine if you don't like the show, I get weird looks all the time from people who don't follow the show but read into the controversy. No skin off my back. But I can't help but scoff at the reasoning and rationale of those who have followed the show up to this point, thru all the absolutely shocking and dehumanizing shit that's happened but draw the line at what ever their random sensibility may be. Especially when its more or less the same shit that's happened before.
How many burnings have we witnessed? I remember Mance and the guy from Stannis' first scene. The witch in the dothraki camp. I'm sure I've missed some. How is it any more intolerable now because it happened to his daughter? How is it any worse than any of the other horrific death scenes we've seen?
What's the point? She was obviously cornered, with her guards seemingly unable to protect her much longer. And the dragon was taking heavy damage from the spears. Was it not obvious that if she didnt make it out of that pit soon that she was done?
If we're being realistic, everybody on her council is replaceable to some extent. Her and the Dragon, not so much. Made sense to me.
Valkyr Junkie
Member
Kinda what I was wondering as well, Tormund basically stated anyone alive north of the wall was in Hardhome. I don't recall seeing any Thenns walking through Castle Black, so it seems like a lot of the wildling tribes/races are extinct now.
To save Drogon's life after he killed enough Harpies to make it possible for the rest of Dany's crew to escape on foot.
Oh of course, thanks for that. I do hate Googling these things in fear of spoilers.
Still, I'm waiting for Syrio to return, maybe next episode
Oh boy, new theory, Syro steps out of the darkness and kills Meryn, YES.
No problem. I have stopped watching the Previously On segments, so I don't know if the show showed part of that clip before the episode where Meryn Trant shows up in Bravos. If they didn't, they should have.
Nameless
Member
Far be it from me to tell anyone where to draw their line or how spend their time, but this [minor] trend of people quitting the show due to its brutality is kinda of amusing. I mean Christ, the very first episode featured slaughtered children, an innocent man getting beheaded, a girl being raped by a barbarian, and a boy being thrown savagely from a tower window by a dude fucking his sister. THE.FIRST.EPISODE.
And since then the show has made no qualms about what kind of world and story it's building. Yet, for some reason, people ignored the gigantic blood stained neon signs telling them shit is fucked, and stubbornly expected puppies & ice cream to fall from the sky like this is a conventional story who's ultimate goal is to send the audience on their way with a coke and a smile.
Obligatory:
No snark or sarcasm, I honestly want to know...what did people think they had signed up for after watching the pilot, nevemind the previous four seasons?
And since then the show has made no qualms about what kind of world and story it's building. Yet, for some reason, people ignored the gigantic blood stained neon signs telling them shit is fucked, and stubbornly expected puppies & ice cream to fall from the sky like this is a conventional story who's ultimate goal is to send the audience on their way with a coke and a smile.
Obligatory:
No snark or sarcasm, I honestly want to know...what did people think they had signed up for after watching the pilot, nevemind the previous four seasons?
The arena scenes were shockingly bad.
So cheap and awful, terrible fight scenes and that CGI with Dany riding Drogon... yikes.
Hardhome was worth it though I guess.
Gotta love how the Harpy just let her and Drogon have that 'tender' moment together, what the fuck are you doing? Throw a spear at her now quickly and get the fuck outta there.
So cheap and awful, terrible fight scenes and that CGI with Dany riding Drogon... yikes.
Hardhome was worth it though I guess.
Gotta love how the Harpy just let her and Drogon have that 'tender' moment together, what the fuck are you doing? Throw a spear at her now quickly and get the fuck outta there.
Or how about the spear guy saving Jorrah rather than waiting for the attacker to kill Jorrah and then make his move.
Sloppy choreography.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Far be it from me to tell anyone where to draw their line or how spend their time, but this [minor] trend of people quitting the show due to its brutality is kinda of amusing. I mean Christ, the very first episode featured slaughtered children, an innocent man getting beheaded, a girl being raped by a barbarian, and a boy being thrown savagely from a tower window by a dude fucking his sister. THE.FIRST.EPISODE.
And since then the show has made no qualms about what kind of world and story it's building. Yet, for some reason, people ignored the gigantic blood stained neon signs telling them shit is fucked, and stubbornly expected puppies & ice cream to fall from the sky like this is a conventional story who's ultimate goal is to send the audience on their way with a coke and a smile.
Obligatory:
No snark or sarcasm, I honestly want to know...what did people think they had signed up for after watching the pilot, nevemind the previous four seasons?
EXACTLY! FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT! THANK YOU!!
It goes both ways though, David & Dan seem intent on making "SHOCKING!!" moments without care for how they fit the story or characters. But most of those moments have been from source material and people whine like the show was pitched as Disney's War of the Roses or something. You know what's worse? Those who pretend atrocities like those in the show didn't happen in ancient times. Like having dragons means it has to be a toothless show.
JadedWriter
Member
Far be it from me to tell anyone where to draw their line or how spend their time, but this [minor] trend of people quitting the show due to its brutality is kinda of amusing. I mean Christ, the very first episode featured slaughtered children, an innocent man getting beheaded, a girl being raped by a barbarian, and a boy being thrown savagely from a tower window by a dude fucking his sister. THE.FIRST.EPISODE.
And since then the show has made no qualms about what kind of world and story it's building. Yet, for some reason, people ignored the gigantic blood stained neon signs telling them shit is fucked, and stubbornly expected puppies & ice cream to fall from the sky like this is a conventional story who's ultimate goal is to send the audience on their way with a coke and a smile.
Obligatory:
No snark or sarcasm, I honestly want to know...what did people think they had signed up for after watching the pilot, nevemind the previous four seasons?
I honestly don't know why people get surprised anymore.
I need to watch Spartacus now to remember what good arena-fight scenes look like.
Also this season has been rubbish apart from Hardhome imo.
But it HASN'T resulted in bigger pay-offs, thats my point. At least it hasn't seemed like it to me. I guess it will make more (or less) sense when we see what the outcome of Shireen's burning is in the next episode, but I don't feel like the magnitude of the "sacrifice" has correlated well with the outcomes.
The primary problem facing Stannis in the North is the horrible weather. He can't march forward and he can't go back to the Wall because he'll get stuck for good. So in order to save him from said weather, Melisandre insists that he has to burn Shireen alive. Why couldn't she have used leeches, like Stannis asked? Again, all it took was a couple leeches to kill off 3 MAJOR players in the war a few seasons back (I'm just assuming Balon is out of the picture as well, since we haven't seen him) - it just seems like that's a huge result for such little effort.
Maybe you're right, but at this point, the Bolton's army falling into complete chaos and being swiftly defeated is the only outcome that I can see that would make the necessity of Shireen's murder make any sense.
rambis said:
Yea, I don't get this mentality either. This same thing happened all over the internet after Sansa gets raped by Ramsey on their wedding night. Yea, it was pretty horrific and disturbing in its own way, but everybody lost their minds like it was the first time the show had dealt with rape before. Hello, this is the show that has shown a pregnant women getting stabbed repeatedly in the belly, and a guy getting his skull crushed in in graphic detail.
Hell, basically the same damn thing happened to Dany in the very first episode of the show, it just wasn't presenting quite as shockingly. Also, no one was really familiar with the characters and their stories at the point, whereas Sansa has turned into some people's favorite character over the course of the show. It was ok for Dany, but now that it happened to this character I really like, it's unacceptable! The show has gone too far!
At this point, if you're still watching, you know exactly what this show is, and what you're in for. I get it - it's draining sometimes to constantly watch horrible things happen to people. I think the biggest problem for most people right now is just the fact that it seems like it's been constant horror and misery for most characters with very little happening to be happy about.
Once we finally get that episode where things start to turn around, and we finally get a couple of payoffs from everything that's happened, people will be right back to the show.
Although, while I say that, I will have some serious issues if Jon Snow gets killed off anytime soon, simply because that would be such a waste in my opinion. He's the only real POV character left at the Wall, there's no real reason to care about the White Walker conflict anymore once he's gone. I'm hoping all the stuff with Olly ends up being a bait and switch moment.
Are you referring to Stannis burning Shireen? Because the character of Stannis has been burning people alive and betraying his family all series long.
TheJollyCorner
Member
The job of individuals like Daario, Jorah, the Unsullied, and now even Tyrion is to protect Dany at any cost. In many instances in conflict, if a commander/king/etc. has a collapsing unit the soldiers will make necessary moves to get that person out without any concern for their own safety. It's the old "soldiers are expendable, leaders are not" belief.
Dany had to get the fuck out of there- and it's not like that dragon was a bus that could haul everyone away. Her escape was the primary objective and it looked like the dragon was getting injured, which is why it couldn't just stand there and continue to decimate everyone in the arena.
Even still, it appeared that the advance of the attack had ended/was ending, as I recall seeing some Unsullied going down on one knee, relaxing their defensive positions, as if the threat had subsided.
Not sure why people are so worked up about "lol, Dany just bailed!" Made perfect sense to me.
Dany had to get the fuck out of there- and it's not like that dragon was a bus that could haul everyone away. Her escape was the primary objective and it looked like the dragon was getting injured, which is why it couldn't just stand there and continue to decimate everyone in the arena.
Even still, it appeared that the advance of the attack had ended/was ending, as I recall seeing some Unsullied going down on one knee, relaxing their defensive positions, as if the threat had subsided.
Not sure why people are so worked up about "lol, Dany just bailed!" Made perfect sense to me.
This show seems to be very good at getting people attached to the characters. Earlier in the year people were singing praises of Stannis because of the scene with Shireen. She gets sacrificed and people are ready to "quit the show". Where was this bravado when Joffrey had a town full of bastards killed? Remember when the Gold Cloak slit the infant's throat? Where was the line then?
I think the outrage has more to do with particular characters meeting horrific events than horrific events happening in general.
Yep, this right here.
Stannis has been burning people since day one. It doesn't make it any less horrific that they were characters we didn't give a shit about it. I mean, even I got to be #TeamStannis for a while, since he hadn't burned anyone recently and he seemed to be acting a little more human in the last couple seasons. But burning Shireen is a big reminder that he's still good ol' Stannis.
Same thing with Sansa. It's a character you like, and it's a character you want to succeed, so it doesn't matter if people have been getting raped all show (or even last episode - "too old!"), no one cares about that, but as soon as it happens to Sansa it's a fucking crisis.
That's exactly how I took that scene too. Her crew was protecting her and trying to get her the fuck out of there at all costs. When they ran out of doors to escape through, they went into last stand, circle the wagons mode. Drogon helped them achieve what they were trying to do, save the queen.
Drogon was like an elite bodyguard unit coming in to save the day and whisk her away. I saw nothing wrong with that.
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