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[RDreamer]

You said the White Walker's army, too. I'd call that reanimating and not resurrection.

Now that's just semantics and it doesn't change what I'm saying. All these things add up to tell us that death doesn't work the same as in real life. There is magic in this world and death may not be the end.

That's why I think at some point a main character will get the resurrection treatment: you don't usually hint at these things but only use them for tangential stories that don't make a difference. You prime the pump and fill the world with hints.

 

[Kinyou]

And on the other other hand, we do have an actual example of straightforwardly bad writing in that same episode: "bad pussy."

Oh man, don't remind me.

 

[Sande]

Beric was nearly cut in half by the Hound's sword. I wouldn't start prescribing limits to the Lord of Light's resurrection powers yet. I don't think the severity of injuries, or how long they've been dead is really a factor in it. It matters who they are, and what part they might have to play (IMO).

That's another way to see it. Neither has been really proven to any extent in the show. I just like to think that several liters of blood can't materialize into the body out of thin air.

I think Beric's injury was from the collarbone to the nipple. That's not insignificant but he was also being revived within 5 seconds, and I strongly believe time is of the essence there.

 

[Einchy]

Now that's just semantics and it doesn't change what I'm saying. All these things add up to tell us that death doesn't work the same as in real life. There is magic in this world and death may not be the end.

That's why I think at some point a main character will get the resurrection treatment: you don't usually hint at these things but only use them for tangential stories that don't make a difference. You prime the pump and fill the world with hints.

I'm not playing semantics here.

The Lamonster argued that resurrection has been used many times and it has cheapened death in Game of Thrones and you said that the White Walker's army is a case of resurrection.

Do you feel like a character dying, then the body moving around without the spirit of side character is resurrection and in turn cheapens death? A Wright Jon Snow wouldn't cheapen his death in my eyes.

[edit]

I'm not arguing the resurrections can't happen or has happened. All I'm saying is that resurrection has only happened once in Game of Thrones as opposed to multiple times. So IF Jon Snow is resurrected then it wouldn't feel cheap because it's not something the writers use to bring characters back from the dead over and over.

 

[civilstrife]

Robb was precisely the same. He was the King in the North! for 5 minutes, started this huge war to save/avenge his father and win independence for the North. Then he just gets brutally murdered, war is over, bad guys win. Why is something like this so difficult to accept in Jon's case? People can die before they're "supposed to". That's a part of the charm of the show.

Jon might survive but people are so caught up in this idea of what they expected his arc to be and how they were "tricked" into thinking he has completely indestructible plot armor, that they blindly attack an outcome that is completely reasonable.

Well for argument's sake, by the time Robb died, the "bad guys" had been humanized a fair degree. Robb's death meant life and prosperity for other lead characters. Jon's death doesn't really benefit any other lead character or affect any other character's arc except for Sam, who's already been taken care of, plot-wise.

But I completely agree about people dying before they're "supposed to". It's very much in the DNA of the show and part of what makes the story so harrowing and exciting.

That said, look at this damn oath.

It shall not end until my death...I shall win no glory...I shall live and die at my post.

If he is revived, his "death" could well be the only way to actually get Jon away from that damn wall and on to anything actually significant for the realm. Maybe with a Wildling army at his back.

 

[Joe]

The presence of dragons increases the overall instances of magic and also increases the effectiveness of magic.

In season 2 when the alchemists guild is preparing the wildfire they say they make it with magical elements and the wildfire is more potent than ever now that dragons have returned. (the rumor of danerys' dragons spread to the seven kingdoms but most still did not believe it at the time and most probably still dont).

 

[Moral Panic]

On the other side, setting up a character arc, giving them a mysterious unresolved background that's been referenced plenty of times,

???

 

[Lorcain]

I want Arya to gtfo of there. I was initially onboard with her training, but they seem like a creepy cult with no upside. I don't want her storyline to end with her becoming a faceless assassin with no sense of self.

 

[RDreamer]

I want Arya to gtfo of there. I was initially onboard with her training, but they seem like a creepy cult with no upside. I don't want her storyline to end with her becoming a faceless assassin with no sense of self.

Yeah Arya's one of the more fascinating arcs for me. The way they're playing up the faceless men and the many faced god it really seems like if she completes her "training" she becomes "no one" which really doesn't lead to revenge. I get the idea the faceless ones don't get to do their own revenge. They follow their "god" and that's it. Now what that means is she might break out with some skills at some point and then do something. She's not going to die before that, though because then this has been an odd pointless arc. I just can't predict even remotely where her endgame is, compared to some of the others which have been pretty easy to predict this whole time.

 

[Valus]

As if Jon would get back up and say "Welp, I don't need to honor my oaths anymore, peace ya'll!" He was the only honor bound main character left in the show. Even if he does get revived (he won't) he will still try and do the right thing, aka save everyone.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Jon will be back. I'll only shake on my conviction if Kit cuts his locks before the next season airs

 

[Vashetti]

Jon's going to be revived only to be promptly shanked again.

 

[RDreamer]

As if Jon would get back up and say "Welp, I don't need to honor my oaths anymore, peace ya'll!" He was the only honor bound main character left in the show. Even if he does get revived (he won't) he will still try and do the right thing, aka save everyone.

He'll do the right thing, but the right thing doesn't include sticking with the Night's Watch. For one they fucking killed him. For two, they fucking killed him. For three, fuck Olly. And lastly, Sansa's probably going to find him and tell him Bran and Rickon are still alive and that the Boltons suck and have Winterfell. What he does with that information, I dunno, but it probably doesn't include sticking around Alliser's foul ass for very long.

 

[Starsunder]

Beric Dondarrion died and was brought back.

Gregor Clegane was poisoned by Oberyn Martell but he never died.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NgIoIcTNoA

Who is to say that the Jaqen we've seen all season is the same one we saw in season 2? "Jaqen H'ghar" is just a face and not a person.

uhhhhh

 

[Einchy]

uhhhhh

uhhhhh what?

 

[Dragon1893]

Beric, The Mountain, Jaqen (sort of), the entirety of the white walker's army.

You're really reaching with this.

Anyway, this was a heavy episode. Jon's assassination was painful to watch, I'm curious to see where they will go with this.
I had already heard about the walk of shame but goddamn, that was an intense scene, major kudos to Lena Headey. Weird that Tommen was nowhere to be seen.
What a pathetic defeat for Stannis, even Danny would've made a better job. I was hoping Melisandre would get what's coming to her but it seems she still has a role to play.
I loved how the dragon was giving 0 fucks lol.
And suddenly Tyrion finds himself ruling Mereen, amazing.
Was sad to see Marcella die, war is inevitable now.
Arya killing that sick bastard was awesome to see though it was obvious she wouldn't just walk away from that.


Strong conclusion for the series, Jon's death seems to have been a misstep though. Apparently it also happens in the books so I dunno, will wait and see what happens next season.

 

[purg3]

Jon will be back. I'll only shake on my conviction if Kit cuts his locks before the next season airs

He already cut them

 

[Gigglepoo]

or maybe you're just blind to this story finally jumping the shark.

It's bad writing if Jon dies because of all the time and false importance placed on him, and it's bad writing if he's resurrected, because they've already done that to a couple minor characters and it would make death overall seem like less of a threat than it should be.

I don't see any smart or interesting way out of the hole the writers have dug themselves into. I'm out.

People don't seem to have a problem with bringing back "dead" characters in the Marvel universe.

The difference between the way its done in those movies and here is that there are already rules in place that allow for resurrection. That's why the showrunners devoted a storyline to resurrection -- so we'd understand how it works with a minor character before it becomes important.

If they were making stuff up as they went along, that would be a problem. Here? That's the reality of the world the characters inhabit/.

 

[aravuus]

uhhhhh what?

Maybe he mixed Sandor and Gregor

 

[The Lamonster]

People don't seem to have a problem with bringing back "dead" characters in the Marvel universe.

The difference between the way its done in those movies and here is that there are already rules in place that allow for resurrection. That's why the showrunners devoted a storyline to resurrection -- so we'd understand how it works with a minor character before it becomes important.

If they were making stuff up as they went along, that would be a problem. Here? That's the reality of the world the characters inhabit/.

That's a very good point.

 

[funkypie]

I think George has created a great world and story, but I'm starting to think he isn't the best writer about. Building characters up for 5 series, snow and stannis just to go lol dead now is just pointless.

As least tywin wasn't built up at all and his death sort of came out of nowhere, where jons and stannis were too obvious.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

I think George has created a great world and story, but I'm starting to think he isn't the best writer about. Building characters up for 5 series, snow and stannis just to go lol dead now is just pointless.

As least tywin wasn't built up at all and his death sort of came out of nowhere, where jons and stannis were too obvious.

DD write the show. George just adapted them for the page.

 

[turtle553]

He'll do the right thing, but the right thing doesn't include sticking with the Night's Watch. For one they fucking killed him. For two, they fucking killed him. For three, fuck Olly. And lastly, Sansa's probably going to find him and tell him Bran and Rickon are still alive and that the Boltons suck and have Winterfell. What he does with that information, I dunno, but it probably doesn't include sticking around Alliser's foul ass for very long.

Did Sam not tell Jon about running into Bran as they crossed the wall? I just watched that episode again and don't remember them asking Sam to not tell Jon.

 

[Vashetti]

I think George has created a great world and story, but I'm starting to think he isn't the best writer about. Building characters up for 5 series, snow and stannis just to go lol dead now is just pointless.

As least tywin wasn't built up at all and his death sort of came out of nowhere, where jons and stannis were too obvious.

If you think Stannis' story was pointless than you haven't been paying attention.

In that same episode they shifted Melisandre and Davos to the Wall (because of the buildup in the Stannis story), where Jon was conveniently stabbed to death and primed for resurrection.

Mel and Davos are now a part of Jon's tale.

 

[RDreamer]

If you think Stannis' story was pointless than you haven't been paying attention.

In that same episode they shifted Melisandre and Davos to the Wall (because of the buildup in the Stannis story), where Jon was conveniently stabbed to death and primed for resurrection.

Mel and Davos are now a part of Jon's tale.

Plus Stannis still did some interesting things on his own. He was the instigator of the battle of Blackwater, which was one of Tyrion's big tests as hand. He saved the wall against the attack by the Wildlings, too.

To say Stannis's story was pointless is just.... wrong.

 

[LyleLanley]

Robb was precisely the same. He was the King in the North! for 5 minutes, started this huge war to save/avenge his father and win independence for the North. Then he just gets brutally murdered, war is over, bad guys win. Why is something like this so difficult to accept in Jon's case? People can die before they're "supposed to". That's a part of the charm of the show.

Jon might survive but people are so caught up in this idea of what they expected his arc to be and how they were "tricked" into thinking he has completely indestructible plot armor, that they blindly attack an outcome that is completely reasonable.

I used to think this way but now I'm starting to feel like it's making a lot of the show kind of pointless.

 

[Dragon1893]

Plus Stannis still did some interesting things on his own. He was the instigator of the battle of Blackwater, which was one of Tyrion's big tests as hand. He saved the wall against the attack by the Wildlings, too.

To say Stannis's story was pointless is just.... wrong.

Indeed, so much stuff happened, he failed at achieving his goal but the fact that he died doesn't make it pointless lol.
After everything he did because of how blinded he was by his ambition he was crushed like he deserved to be.

 

[Joe]

Are we really going to judge the entire story of an epic tale when there's still at least 30% of it completely unknown

 

[Dragon1893]

I used to think this way but now I'm starting to feel like it's making a lot of the show kind of pointless.

I agree that it can hurt the story and in Jon's case it probably will but I don't feel that at all with Stannis.
He went to fight for his ultimate goal sacrificing everything along the way but because his ambition and pride blinded him he failed.
It feels like a complete arc to me, especially with that final touch of Brienne getting her revenge.

 

[Speevy]

George R.R. Martin has provided a rough outline for what happens to certain characters/houses throughout the rest of his books, even for things that aren't published yet.

D and D take those story beats, completely strip out what led up to them (or what will lead up to them), and write it all as a television drama. Television dramas involving 200-300 named characters aren't typically rich with character detail, so I'm amazed they've done it so well.

This is why we have characters like Olly, Ros, Karl Tanner, etc. They exist to fill in the gaps of what the D&D weren't able to translate from the books.

Ros is everyone's favorite whore, so she lets us know

-That Tyrion loves whores
-That Theon is a bit of a bad boy
-That Littlefinger isn't to be trusted

Karl Tanner is everyone's favorite fookin' legend of Gin Alley, so he lets us know

-An evil mutineer kills Jeor Mormont and Craster
-The wildlings could torture him and provide the willdlings with information about the NW's defenses.
-Jon Snow is true to his brothers.

Olly is everyone's favorite wildling orphan, so he lets us know

-The wildlings kill innocent people.
-The night's watch hates the wildlings.
-The night's watch are going to hate Jon for siding with the wildlings.

Littlefinger and Varys, although in the books, exist similarly to give the viewer information about backstabbings and dealings around Westeros. These two characters apparently know everything. Littlefinger in particular can travel thousands of miles in a matter of a few days to locations that take every other character months. Melisandre apparently has this power as well, since she traveled from Dragonstone to the Riverlands and back again in no time flat, and also recently from Castle Black to just outside Winterfell and back again.

Beyond that, the show is a series of

-scattered "purgings", such as the red wedding, Stannis' slaughter, the purificaition of King's Landing, the murder of the Stark men at KL, the murder of the Ironborn at Moat Caitlin, the masters in Astapor, etc.
-Buddy romps around the countryside to remind you of what's going on in the story, and how characters feel about certain things, such as Brienne/Pod, Jorah/Tyrion, Arya/Hot Pie/Gendry, and coming next season, Jorah and Daario.
-Armies or large groups of people on a quest for power, such as Stannis, Robb, Dany, etc. So far only one conquering group has succeeded.
-Characters who exist in locations either against their will (Sansa in King's Landing) or in great distress (Bran at Craster's keep, Brienne at the Dreadfort), or perhaps characters who are there to provide a little evil for the good guys (Roose in Robb's camp) or good for the bad guys (Tyrion in King's Landing)
-Finally, there are power trades/negotiations, such as those between Littlefinger/Margaery, Renly/Catelyn, Robb/Greatjon Umber, etc.
-And of course, the small council. They don't actually do anything at these meetings except for issue orders of execution and remind people what is happening in Westeros, similar to Varys and Littlefinger.


Then there's Satan, the character who has now personally murdered more men than every other character in the show combined. Ramsay Bolton.

 

[Brojito]

I think George has created a great world and story, but I'm starting to think he isn't the best writer about. Building characters up for 5 series, snow and stannis just to go lol dead now is just pointless.

As least tywin wasn't built up at all and his death sort of came out of nowhere, where jons and stannis were too obvious.

Edited since this is a NO BOOKS thread... I'll just leave it at this:

It's important to remember that the show =/= the books. So I feel like it's a little unfair to judge GRR Martin for what are likely to be the show's own faults.

 

[Cornballer]

So since over the last 15 pages people had a bad case of amnesia,

NO BOOK SPOILERS

NO BOOK DISCUSSION

DON'T COMPARE TO THE BOOKS

If you'd like to discuss the books, please use the other thread.

 

[Speevy]

nm

 

[Ri'Orius]

Indeed, so much stuff happened, he failed at achieving his goal but the fact that he died doesn't make it pointless lol.
After everything he did because of how blinded he was by his ambition he was crushed like he deserved to be.

Yeah, if the "Mel/Lord of Light revives Jon" theory pans out, Stannis's story has given us a lot of information about the LoL, and how, despite the name, he/it is kind of a dick. Shadow babies, human sacrifices, etc. It'll be interesting to see how well Jon does at serving a powerful but evil god.

 

[timetokill]

Man, fuck Jon. None of this matters because BEST STARK is still alive.

And by that I obviously mean BRAN MOTHERFUCKIN' STARK.

 

[BSsBrolly]

Man, fuck Jon. None of this matters because BEST STARK is still alive.

And by that I obviously mean BRAN MOTHERFUCKIN' STARK.

Fuck Bran, he's a cripple. Good luck weilding a sword. Wonder if zombie mountain is wargable?

 

[oti]

Fuck Bran, he's a cripple. Good luck weilding a sword. Wonder is zombie mountain is wargable?

Wizzard Stark gonna trasform into a crow and eat your brain while you'e sleeping

 

[Vashetti]

Fuck Bran, he's a cripple. Good luck weilding a sword. Wonder if zombie mountain is wargable?

Who needs a sword when you can control a bigger person with a sword.

Or a dragon.

 

[timetokill]

Fuck Bran, he's a cripple. Good luck weilding a sword. Wonder if zombie mountain is wargable?

How about warging into a motherfuckin' dragon, son?

 

[THRILLH0]

Man, fuck Jon. None of this matters because BEST STARK is still alive.

And by that I obviously mean BRAN MOTHERFUCKIN' STARK.

Who?

 

[freeofgreed]

Just caught up. Decided to wait till the season was over so i could marathon it and I read this thread while watching it. I really enjoyed it and am surprised so many people didn't. Maybe it was because I watched it all at once so the pacing was different for me. It definitely wasn't the strongest season, but it wasn't a huge dip in quality like some were implying. I also am surprised at how much this season was able to make me like Jon Snow when I was so 'meh' about him before. His death was spoiled to me but it was still quite surprising. Although I do agree, that He may be resurrected by Melisandre.

However it definitely wasn't without flaws. The whole Religious fanatics taking over King's Landing was completely unbelievable to me. Even if they had the support of the people, the fact that they imprisoned the Queen, the King's mother, and the prince of the second wealthiest region in the country with zero repercussions is way too far fetched for me to believe. The unsullied getting merced through out the season by a bunch of rich people with knives was also laughably dumb. Also I didn't care for any of the Essos plotlines. I never really cared for Essos before but I thought that with so many characters headed there this season that would change, but it didn't. It just made me care about those characters less.

 

[Ovid]

Beric was nearly cut in half by the Hound's sword. I wouldn't start prescribing limits to the Lord of Light's resurrection powers yet. I don't think the severity of injuries, or how long they've been dead is really a factor in it. It matters who they are, and what part they might have to play (IMO).

The person cannot be decapitated.

Other than that, its fair game.

 

[Jarnet87]

Fuck Bran, he's a cripple. Good luck weilding a sword. Wonder if zombie mountain is wargable?

Bran gonna be next, then Rickon. Only the Stark girls will survive GoT. I've never for once though Arya or Sansa would die, one or both of them dying would be the most shocking death on the show for me.

 

[BSsBrolly]

Bran gonna be next, then Rickon. Only the Stark girls will survive GoT. I've never for once though Arya or Sansa would die, one or both of them dying would be the most shocking death on the show for me.

Yeah, they'll spend next season showing bran go through training, only for the head of whatever animal he wargs into to get chopped off. Thus ends Brans story arc.

 

[Mr.Mike]

Eh, perhaps the "high borns" grip on the city isn't really that strong anyway, and they know that, and don't dare act against the church which has the popular support of the people.

A lot of the aristocracy seem solely concerned with their politics and intrigue and no one particularly seems to care about actually ruling and leading or anything, except maybe Dany a little bit. Although it looks like Tyrion and Varys are gonna be getting into some of that stuff, which I look forward too.

 

[rando14]

No way do I see Bran dying, probably just gonna end up the heir tree to the tree lord. Doubt Sansa dies, she's just been shat on the whole series even moreso than any other Stark, probably some sort of redemption in store for her. Arya, eh, might die, she's so isolated from every other character that it'd be jarring to lose her perspective.

 

[Gaz_RB]

Wait you guys think Sansa and Theon are still alive? I assumed that was suicide.

 

[Vashetti]

Wait you guys think Sansa and Theon are still alive? I assumed that was suicide.

You're the odd one out.

They're clearly alive.

 

[Gaz_RB]

You're the odd one out.

They're clearly alive.

I guess they conveniently forgot to show the trampoline at the bottom haha.

 

[Vashetti]

I guess they conveniently forgot to show the trampoline at the bottom haha.

They made a point of showing the deep snow. 100% they are alive.

In a post-show interview I believe the director of the episode said it was a very safe assumption that they are alive.