Support NeoGAF

[Emerson]

Read the summary. It does happen this way but before we see Theon in Winterfell, we see the men climbing the walls through Summer's eyes.

It says that through Summer he is aware of the presence of foes, but he does not see anything.

 

[q_q]

Yes. There is no action set piece where Theon's men are scaling the castle walls.

Sorry for being condescending, it just really bugs me when people complain about the way the show handles something and then hold up the book as the definitive version of the story, when the scene they are complaining about is taken directly from the book!

See also: Theon being baptized, Jaqen saying Arya owes the Red God, etc.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it applies here. He was complaining specifically about the line "My men scaled the walls... blah blah blah." I personally think this complaint is valid because the show uses it as a way to tell the audience what happened. In the book, this line isn't so out of place because earlier in that chapter we see men climbing walls through Summer's eyes. So when Theon says this it's simply explaining to us what we saw before. Here though the show doesn't show us the Summer POV so the line seems cheap and forced as a way to save time. Like I said, it's not a huge deal to me, I thought the show handled it alright. But just to say that his point is invalid because that line is in the book is a little unfair because we see it in a different context than in the book.

It says that through Summer he is aware of the presence of foes, but he does not see anything.

You don't literally see them, but the sound of them climbing the walls is described in quite a bit of detail that will imply to the reader that someone is climbing walls with hooks. It's enough that unlike gutshot says, GRRM does show and not just tell, whereas the show just tells. But if we're arguing about literally seeing men climbing walls, then you got me, you're right.

 

[Emerson]

I understand what you're saying but I don't think it applies here. He was complaining specifically about the line "My men scaled the walls... blah blah blah." I personally think this complaint is valid because the show uses it as a way to tell the audience what happened. In the book, this line is so out of place because earlier in that chapter we see men climbing walls through Summer's eyes. So when Theon says this it's simply explaining to us what we saw before. Here though the show doesn't show us the Summer POV so the line seems cheap and forced as a way to save time. Like I said, it's not a huge deal to me, I thought the show handled it alright. But just to say that his point is invalid because that line is in the book is a little unfair because we see it in a different context than in the book.

You're nitpicking and missing the spirit of the debate here. Gutshot's problem is with the people complaining about this scene as "an obvious budget issue!" or whatever else, when the reality is that the book did not have an action scene either.

 

[Bebpo]

The Jaqhen scene was weird because wouldn't Tywin know that there's an assassin in his mist now since there's a dart sticking out of the guy? I thought in the books the deaths were all made to look like accidents so they didn't arouse suspicion.

Also the new scene with Littlefinger makes no sense to add in, since he would have recognized her and would probably have done something about it later on.

 

[q_q]

You're nitpicking and missing the spirit of the debate here. Gutshot's problem is with the people complaining about this scene as "an obvious budget issue!" or whatever else, when the reality is that the book did not have an action scene either.

I'm not missing the point at all, I literally said that to gutshot. My point is that there is an action scene describing men climbing walls before we even see Theon, so in this case I don't think gutshot's argument applies.

 

[scosher]

Not mine:

 

[BlueTsunami]

hahahahaha, poor Asha I mean Yara

 

[bengraven]

Just watched again.

This is seriously my favorite episode of the series so far.

 

[Kammie]

An episode where:

-Winterfell gets taken
-Ser Rodrik is killed
-there's a revolt in King's Landing
-Sansa is almost raped
-Arya is almost caught not once but TWICE
-rangers attack wildlings
-Bran, Rickon & co escape Winterfell in the dead of the night
-the spice guy shits on Dany's plans
-the dragons are stolen

is a bore? yeah, stop watching this show right now, you just like to bitch about the differences of the show. The conquering of Winterfell was done well enough with Maester Luwin rushing to send a raven to Robb. It matters not that they didn't show them climbing over the castle walls, it's not like there was much to see there (there were very little defenses at Winterfell at that point and it was mostly just about gathering the people from around the castle to announce that the castle was taken).

Yes, it's a bore. It doesn't matter that there's things happening, because all we're seeing are people sitting in a room and talking constantly. Television is a visual medium and this show is being presented like a play. And yes, this season is a bit better than the last in terms of this, but it's still not showing us the scenes that it SHOULD be showing. Westeros at this time is a war-ravaged continent and about the only thing we've seen are 20 prisoners held in Harrenhal.

People need to stop dismissing those with negative opinions because they like to "bitch about the differences" with the book. I'm viewing the show as objectively as possible and the truth is that it just isn't that good. It has pacing and budgetary issues that are holding back a narrative that should be feeling grand but really isn't in any way. We're 60% through the season and I have not felt emotionally invested in ANYTHING that is going on. Four more episodes, and by the end it will just feel like the whole production team just heaved a sigh of relief that they managed to get through it.

 

[Emerson]

I'm not missing the point at all, I literally said that to gutshot. My point is that there is an action scene describing men climbing walls before we even see Theon, so in this case I don't think gutshot's argument applies.

No, the point is that nobody was complaining that the show didn't have a vague scene about foes climbing the walls through a wolf's perspective (calling it an "action" sequence as you do is far from accurate IMO), they were complaining that the soldiers and grappling hooks weren't shown clearly in a more classic action sequence, and insinuating that it was a budgetary limitation. Gutshot was annoyed by and responded to this because the books handle the sequence in a very similar way.

 

[Harry Potter]

Sweet handrail and wallpaper.

 

[gutshot]

I'm not missing the point at all, I literally said that to gutshot. My point is that there is an action scene describing men climbing walls before we even see Theon, so in this case I don't think gutshot's argument applies.

I don't have the book to confirm, but I checked both Tower of the Hand and AWOIAF's chapter summary and neither mentions men scaling the walls. Just that Summer could sense that something was wrong and when Bran tries to get him to climb a tree to see what is happening, he falls and Bran awakens to find Theon entering his room.

In any case, we're picking nits here as Kammie's original comment definitely makes it seem like the book had a large action set piece in which Theon's men scale the walls and then take the castle by force, when that definitely did not happen.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I thought Ygritte was perfect. Interestingly many people said she looked fine when the casting news was announced; she's cute, but not "hot" or whatever. Now some are saying she's too pretty...bleh whatever. She looks fine. I will say she looks a lot prettier on this show than on Downton Abbey. Not to say she looks bad on that show, but she just looks...striking on GoT. Maybe it's due to how much her hair came alive in that episode in contrast to the bleak, snowy terrain.

She has my axe, my bow, my sword, etc.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Yes. There is no action set piece where Theon's men are scaling the castle walls.

Sorry for being condescending, it just really bugs me when people complain about the way the show handles something and then hold up the book as the definitive version of the story, when the scene they are complaining about is taken directly from the book!

See also: Theon being baptized, Jaqen saying Arya owes the Red God, etc.

I'm finding that what people remember as happening in the books/show compared to whats actually written/shown are all over the place when it comes to the series.

 

[Arment]

People are really complaining about Ygritte being too pretty? Da fuck? Get out.

She's perfect.

Yes, it's a bore. It doesn't matter that there's things happening, because all we're seeing are people sitting in a room and talking constantly. Television is a visual medium and this show is being presented like a play. And yes, this season is a bit better than the last in terms of this, but it's still not showing us the scenes that it SHOULD be showing. Westeros at this time is a war-ravaged continent and about the only thing we've seen are 20 prisoners held in Harrenhal.

People need to stop dismissing those with negative opinions because they like to "bitch about the differences" with the book. I'm viewing the show as objectively as possible and the truth is that it just isn't that good. It has pacing and budgetary issues that are holding back a narrative that should be feeling grand but really isn't in any way. We're 60% through the season and I have not felt emotionally invested in ANYTHING that is going on. Four more episodes, and by the end it will just feel like the whole production team just heaved a sigh of relief that they managed to get through it.

Negative opinions that don't make sense are dismissed.

 

[bengraven]

I don't have the book to confirm, but I checked both Tower of the Hand and AWOIAF's chapter summary and neither mentions men scaling the walls. Just that Summer could sense that something was wrong and when Bran tries to get him to climb a tree to see what is happening, he falls and Bran awakens to find Theon entering his room.

In any case, we're picking nits here as Kammie's original comment definitely makes it seem like the book had a large action set piece in which Theon's men scale the walls and then take the castle by force, when that definitely did not happen.

It happens just like you say. Bran hears some noises outside and screaming, metal on metal and the door opens and in comes Theon, same as the show.

 

[gutshot]

List of a bunch of action packed scenes of people running around and fighting and getting killed

Yes, it's a bore. It doesn't matter that there's things happening, because all we're seeing are people sitting in a room and talking constantly. Television is a visual medium and this show is being presented like a play.

Does not compute.

 

[Famassu]

Yes, it's a bore. It doesn't matter that there's things happening, because all we're seeing are people sitting in a room and talking constantly.

I didn't know Rodrik's beheading happened while people were sitting in a room and talking constantly. I didn't know that you can escape Winterfell by sitting in a room. I didn't know the revolt at King's Landing happened inside a room while people just kept on yammering along. It was cool how Arya picked her second victim ALL WHILE EVERYONE WAS SITTING IN A ROOM.

Television is a visual medium and this show is being presented like a play. And yes, this season is a bit better than the last in terms of this, but it's still not showing us the scenes that it SHOULD be showing. Westeros at this time is a war-ravaged continent and about the only thing we've seen are 20 prisoners held in Harrenhal.

The books don't "show" a lot of it either. ACOK

Spoiler

The only big battle in ACOK is Blackwater. Every Robb battle we hear through other people's accounts and Theon's Winterfell capture is vaguely describe through Bran's Summer-connection, but that's over faster than this episode's Maester Luwin's message-sending, which, imho, was a good way of beginning this episode with a fast-paced and "shocking" (for non-book readers) twist.

Besides, this is a slow-moving series even in the books and a lot of the build-up for many things are done slowly, carefully and mostly through talking. That's why the pay-offs are always so good.

People need to stop dismissing those with negative opinions because they like to "bitch about the differences" with the book. I'm viewing the show as objectively as possible and the truth is that it just isn't that good. It has pacing and budgetary issues that are holding back a narrative that should be feeling grand but really isn't in any way. We're 60% through the season and I have not felt emotionally invested in ANYTHING that is going on. Four more episodes, and by the end it will just feel like the whole production team just heaved a sigh of relief that they managed to get through it.

You say that an episode which probably had the most tension and action out of any episodes of the series was "a bore." Sorry if I have trouble taking your criticism & the BS you sprout seriously.

 

[q_q]

No, the point is that nobody was complaining that the show didn't have a vague scene about foes climbing the walls through a wolf's perspective (calling it an "action" sequence as you do is far from accurate IMO), they were complaining that the soldiers and grappling hooks weren't shown clearly in a more classic action sequence, and insinuating that it was a budgetary limitation. Gutshot was annoyed by and responded to this because the books handle the sequence in a very similar way.

That's... not the point at all. I'm talking about this specific post:

Episode was a bore to sit through. Just dull and lifeless. And I don't care if they have budget issues, but the taking over of Winterfell with Theon storming into the room shouting "I took over the castle! I had men climb over with grappling hooks and I took over the castle!" is inexcusable. Even an episode of Xena has the money to show a couple stuntmen climbing over a wall. I'm getting tired of how many times I've thought "Show, don't tell" now.

It seems to me that he didn't want some grand action battle sequence, he just wanted a few men scaling a wall, which is exactly what the book describes. That's all I'm saying. I'm not sure how that matches up with your description of the post, but whatever. I don't personally have a problem with how the show handled this and I don't agree with a lot of Kammie's other complaints, I just think that in this case he has a little bit of ground to stand on.

 

[YianGaruga]

I'm viewing the show as objectively as possible and the truth is that it just isn't that good.

That's not objective. The show might not confirm to your tastes or might be different than what you expected, but to say that "it just isn't that good" is a lie.

I don't need war scenes or ravaged villages or whatever makes the show feel like a better representation of the state of Westeros to you. I don't even see what they add to the story besides eye-candy for some.

I like the character development, the politics, the "people sitting in a room and talking". The show is pretty fucking competent at what it does and the majority of the people watching the show like it.

My opinion is, of course, subjective, but so is yours.

 

[Kammie]

Does not compute.

I said this season is a lot better, but it's still the case. Do you really want to argue that the show now fading out twice when a battle is about to start is the best way that a battle can be presented in what's a visual medium? At this point I'm wondering if we'll even get any in the whole series. Not to mention that (CoK)

Spoiler

I'm particularly concerned about how the Blackwater battle is going to be presented. We haven't even seen the chain yet! I'm imagining that they're going to trebuchet over some of that wildfire and we'll see the ships burning in the distance while about 30 soldiers battle by the gates.

If you guys are happy with the show, good for you. I'm just not won over and don't feel the need to justify its shortcomings.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

I said this season is a lot better, but it's still the case. Do you really want to argue that the show now fading out twice when a battle is about to start is the best way that a battle can be presented in what's a visual medium? At this point I'm wondering if we'll even get any in the whole series. Not to mention that (CoK)

Spoiler

I'm particularly concerned about how the Blackwater battle is going to be presented. We haven't even seen the chain yet! I'm imagining that they're going to trebuchet over some of that wildfire and we'll see the ships burning in the distance while about 30 soldiers battle by the gates.

If you guys are happy with the show, good for you. I'm just not won over and don't feel the need to justify its shortcomings.

Ok, the object you mentioned not seeing yet? You got me there. I'm shocked they didn't present it as a multiple episode long mystery.

Spoiler

"WTF does he have them building?"

 

[PhoenixDark]

I can understand the "people in a room talking" complaint for most of S1, but S2 is quite different and better. While the first couple episodes are basically people talking about stuff they're going to do, things get eventful shortly after that.

Do I think there are pacing and writing issues? Sure. But overall this season has been solid. It's not yet the great show I had hoped it would be, but it's certainly closer to that point than it was for the first 6 episodes of S1

 

[Kettch]

I was thinking about it in terms of his getting slapped by his mother which he didn't take nearly as well and the threat seemed real. He's never even threatened Tyrion.

I think Tyrion is the one person Joffrey is actually afraid of, oddly enough. He's unpredictable, never does what he's told, has no qualms about hurting him.

The only payback he's tried to get was with the whores, and he was safely nowhere near Tyrion to send that message.

 

[gutshot]

I said this season is a lot better, but it's still the case. Do you really want to argue that the show now fading out twice when a battle is about to start is the best way that a battle can be presented in what's a visual medium? At this point I'm wondering if we'll even get any in the whole series. Not to mention that (CoK)

Spoiler

I'm particularly concerned about how the Blackwater battle is going to be presented. We haven't even seen the chain yet! I'm imagining that they're going to trebuchet over some of that wildfire and we'll see the ships burning in the distance while about 30 soldiers battle by the gates.

If you guys are happy with the show, good for you. I'm just not won over and don't feel the need to justify its shortcomings.

Action does not always have to equal a full scale battle. I've been disappointed at some of the battle fade outs too, but there have also been a lot of scenes that they have included that work really well in a visual medium.

Also, the books themselves were never about awesome battle set pieces, they have way more people in a room talking than they do battles. So I don't understand how you can hold up the books as the definitive version of the story, and then lambast the show because there is too much people in a room talking and not enough large-scale battles.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

the near rape scene of Sansa was the first time I felt uncomfortable watching the show

i knew what would happen and was still like D:

Also it wasn't in the book so it was like "Really, HBO?"

Straight unnecessary. Flagrant? Is that the word?

 

[Frost_Ace]

Also it wasn't in the book so it was like "Really, HBO?"

Straight unnecessary. Flagrant? Is that the word?

At least we got a bit of Sandor screen time

it's one of the best secondary characters HBO! Show him more!

 

[The Lamonster]

Also it wasn't in the book so it was like "Really, HBO?"

Straight unnecessary. Flagrant? Is that the word?

But that other girl got raped repeatedly and they wanted to show that the crowd was monstrous.

i.e. to faithfully convey the theme of the scene, somebody had to get raped or almost raped.

I took it as a conflation of what happens to Lollys and Sansa. Seemed like smart adapting to me.

This is what I was trying to say but you said it more elegantly.

 

[gutshot]

Also it wasn't in the book so it was like "Really, HBO?"

Straight unnecessary. Flagrant? Is that the word?

I took it as a conflation of what happens to Lollys and Sansa. Seemed like smart adapting to me.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

But that other girl got raped repeatedly and they wanted to show that the crowd was monstrous.

Wasn't that what was happening to her handmaiden in that one shot?

Also, a dude got his arm straight ripped off?

You know me, I have no problem with this show being its own thing. But being that this wasn't in the book, it shines a huge spotlight on a showrunner using rape as a manufactured source of jeopardy, which is sloppy and ugly and disgusting.

 

[The Lamonster]

Wasn't that what was happening to her handmaiden in that one shot?

Also, a dude got his arm straight ripped off?

You know me, I have no problem with this show being its own thing. But being that this wasn't in the book, it shines a huge spotlight on a showrunner using rape as a manufactured source of jeopardy, which is sloppy and ugly and disgusting.

At least we got to see the Hound efficiently dispatch some fools!

And yeah, the High Septon's severed arm was a bit silly.

 

[dmann]

My only gripe with the show is how fast these characters teleport to different regions of the seven kingdoms whereas it took Yoren and his crew several episodes just to barely go north on the King's Road. One episode, Little Finger is in King's Landing, then he's in the Stormlands, now he's in Harrenhal. Where to next? Highgarden to negotiate with the Tyrells?
The same with Theon, one episode he's on the shores of Pyke, then Torrehen Square, and now Winterfell. I'm sure it takes longer than a week to travel between these different locale.

Anyways, I guess its needed to advance the story since we are limited to 10 episode seasons.

 

[gutshot]

Wasn't that what was happening to her handmaiden in that one shot?

Also, a dude got his arm straight ripped off?

You know me, I have no problem with this show being its own thing. But being that this wasn't in the book, it shines a huge spotlight on a showrunner using rape as a manufactured source of jeopardy, which is sloppy and ugly and disgusting.

Lollys was raped in the books. There is no Lollys character on the show, so they transferred that event to Sansa.

The High Septon was also literally torn to pieces by the crowd in the book.

Neither of these events were created out of whole cloth.

 

[Amir0x]

I wonder without Lollys, where Bronn is going

 

[PhoenixDark]

I really don't get the point of budget complaints this far into the series; people should get it by now that this isn't LOTR. I feel like many book purists don't give the show any credit, and instead focus on what isn't being shown. Having dragons flying around in every Dany scene, or direwolves chilling in every Bran/Robb/Jon scene, or turning every battle into a massive action piece etc costs money and ultimately doesn't make the show better. I'd rather have that money spent increasing the scale of important things, like making the climax of this season more epic - and luckily the creators agree.

The books are unfilmable in a direct 1:1 ratio. We knew there would be budget issues from the get go, even with HBO. While I understand complaining when something looks legit bad (like say, Dany's wedding or the Hand's tourney), complaining that Harenhel is "not big enough" and things along those lines make no sense.

 

[Apath]

You say that an episode which probably had the most tension and action out of any episodes of the series was "a bore." Sorry if I have trouble taking your criticism & the BS you sprout seriously.

Why does it bother you so much that he found the episode boring? Your entire post reads like you're saying you hold objective judgement over what is and isn't boring.

 

[Amir0x]

i am still reserving my big complaints for how they decide to neuter the <ASoS+>

Spoiler

the army of the free peoples and the battle of the wall

. That's the moment when shit begins to spill over, and it becomes increasingly difficult to hide the budget.

 

[Arment]

That's a spoiler Ami. Your Bronn post. Could be considered one anyways...

 

[Amir0x]

Lollys is not in the show though so whatever speculation there is about Bronn is completely new and not founded from any books.

Show Bronn is unique and all-related discussion is pure speculation.

 

[Arment]

It alludes to the future of Bronn though.

Just watchin' out. Safe than sorry, etc etc.

 

[apana]

I really don't get the point of budget complaints this far into the series; people should get it by now that this isn't LOTR. I feel like many book purists don't give the show any credit, and instead focus on what isn't being shown. Having dragons flying around in every Dany scene, or direwolves chilling in every Bran/Robb/Jon scene, or turning every battle into a massive action piece etc costs money and ultimately doesn't make the show better. I'd rather have that money spent increasing the scale of important things, like making the climax of this season more epic - and luckily the creators agree.

The books are unfilmable in a direct 1:1 ratio. We knew there would be budget issues from the get go, even with HBO. While I understand complaining when something looks legit bad (like say, Dany's wedding or the Hand's tourney), complaining that Harenhel is "not big enough" and things along those lines make no sense.

All I care about is that they capture the big moments, I don't care if they didn't show Theon and his soldiers taking Winterfell. The Theon and Bran scenes were fantastic. Like I said before the show runners really seem to get the North. The only disappointing scene for me direction wise was the mob scene. I think David Nutter deserves to be invited back next season. Also love the soundtrack, that theme when Ygritte is running away from Jon is awesome.

 

[Pollux]

Lollys is not in the show though so whatever speculation there is about Bronn is completely new and not founded from any books.

Show Bronn is unique and all-related discussion is pure speculation.

Show Bronn is better than book Bronn at this point IMO. Maybe because the actor is killing it in that role.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Ygritte is just how I imagined her. D: She's so gorgeous.

 

[Amir0x]

Show Bronn is better than book Bronn at this point IMO. Maybe because the actor is killing it in that role.

I like show Bronn and book Bronn, but like the book it always feels like there's never enough time with him. I hope where the showrunners bring him is worthy of the character.

 

[dinosaur_hunter2]

Lollys was raped in the books. There is no Lollys character on the show, so they transferred that event to Sansa.

The High Septon was also literally torn to pieces by the crowd in the book.

Neither of these events were created out of whole cloth.

In fact, there was a woman there being raped or about to be raped. I just guessed it was Lollys.

I need to catch up with the thread, but was it only me or the dragons being stolen scene was completely out of place? It does not happen in the books, as far as I know. Also, Dany's khalasar was already short in the series and now they killed almost everyone? Can't compute. lol

 

[Pollux]

Ygritte is just how I imagined her. D: She's so gorgeous.

Agreed. I have a new celebrity crush. Am I too old to have one of those?

I like show Bronn and book Bronn, but like the book it always feels like there's never enough time with him. I hope where the showrunners bring him is worthy of the character.

I like them both, but I just prefer Show Bronn at this point in the plot.

 

[Amir0x]

I feel the same way about Ygritte as I did in Downton Abbey. Sometimes there is such a thing as too ginger. I like her slightly strained voice though. She always sounds like she spent the day yelling and so her voice is always breaking.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Lollys was raped in the books. There is no Lollys character on the show, so they transferred that event to Sansa.

The High Septon was also literally torn to pieces by the crowd in the book.

Neither of these events were created out of whole cloth.

I'm still pretty sure Lollys was the heavy set handmaiden getting her clothes ripped off.

And I wasn't complaining about the High Septon being contrived. I said it was enough to show the crowd's ferocity. I know it was in the books and was impressed that they showed it. [ASoS]

Spoiler

It gives hope that they'll give good screen time to all the Septon stuff in later books

To show Sansa in danger of being raped specifically is sloppy and unnecessary. When the Dothraki were taking over that village they somehow magically found a way to show someone being raped in the background with having some cheap fabricated scenario.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

In fact, there was a woman there being raped or about to be raped. I just guessed it was Lollys.

Same here. Knew I wasn't crazy.

 

[apana]

Also the complaints about Qhorin Halfhand were silenced by his performance, I can't put my finger on it but there is something about him that is just so right for the part.