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[Airbus Jr]

The question is more a case of whether Dany allows her darker tendencies to blind her & she becomes a villain in the eyes of Westeros. The trailer for Episode 4 already shows a highly motivated Daenerys hellbent on winning the throne. If I was a survivor at Winterfell, I'd tell her to f-off. They just won the war for human survival & now this person wants them to fight & die so she can fulfil her "birthright"?



Stannis was one-upon-a-time driven by the same sort of messianic complex as Daenerys. He literally jumped from "ruthless... yet somewhat honourable leader" to total "daughter burning psycho" over five minutes. So IMO three (very long) episodes would be enough to send Dany on a similar path because the clues (such as Dany burning Sam's brother, not just his father) are already there.

Thats not the same as mad king who kill random civilian for fun or stannis who torture his own hand and son

sam brothers are fighting against her and despite danny showing them mercy by giving him options he still refuse to acknowledge her...by letting him live it will show sign of weakness...other rulers like Tywin, Euron, Robert, Aerys, Ramsay would kill people like that on the spot....

 

[Kadayi]

]And I've been criticizing the execution all along, and like I've said repeatedly just because the battle need to end up with them losing for NK to end up in the godswood doesn't mean they just employ moronic tactics. The characthers don't know that "they're meant to lose", they aren't supposed to just suicide like they read the script before hand and know what they do doesn't matters. Therefore they should put a fight instead of just acting like fodder.

Yet when I ask you to come up with a better battle plan, your approach is simply to turn the Night King into a chump tactically.

They had a handful of men on the walls, they don't even start shooting until after the wights are already charging at them, don't bullshit me.

I think you're letting the actual practicalities of filming on a live set (they only built a section of wall) lead your biases there. Let's just assume that the living are doing their damnest to fight the army of the dead in the moment, regardless of whatever snapshots the camera shows.

You know how hard it is to siege a well-defended wall? It's nearly fucking impossible. And the wights aren't exactly the smartest foes, they just zerg rush.

Again you're trying to win a battle that needs to be lost. This isn't a conventional assault, they're getting up the walls of Winterfell World War Z style.

I'm saying that a shield wall that was put together while the enemy was incoming, that is 1 rank deep, completely surrounded and gets blasted with dragon fire before the cavalry even arrives isn't an organized defense. Their wall was broken trough before they even had contact with the enemy.

They had a 3 line defence. Shields, Spears and Archers, and the Dothraki gave zero shirts and ploughed right through them through sheer momentum. Your outright inability to concede a point here is getting a bit wearing.

Jorahs arc is over, it's been over for a while, you don't need more touching moments with dany. And more importantly in my version dany isn't retarded and lands her dragon in the middle of a battlefield only to get overwhelmed by enemies, and Jorah doesn't just telepathically guess dany is going to be in danger and teleport next to her to save her.

Please, Jorah is one of the show's heroes. She's just landed Drogon in the battlefield and blasted a whole swathe of the newly raised with fire, how hard is that to spot?

If you really need the moment, have him retreat after the initial charge, Dany sees this and goes to his aid, he's badly injured, dany blasts the wights away, lands and Jorah dies in her arms.
You get a similar shot to the one in the episode, just earlier, you'd also raise the tension significantly.

So you want her to abandon her plan and land her dragon in the battlefield in the midst of the battle for a tender moment with Jorah instead? Didn't you just say doing so was retarded

Slow down the enemy, he already funneled his forces in this episode, I'm just trying to give the show an excuse for it to be that way instead of the NK being a moron instead, the back of winterfell was completely open for an attack and he didn't do it, at least he has an excuse this way.

To what purpose? The episode is only so long and they need to get all those narrative beats in. Ten minutes more of battle here, means ten minutes less of something else. Plus again with this idea that the NK is a moron because you're speculating on what the camera isn't showing you.

Dothraki are fucking cavalry, they can go around a trench, they'd be position far away so they could engage when necessary.
The unsulied aren't going to attack and flank them, never said they would, their job is to hold the fucking ground while the archers/catapults do most of the damage.
What messages? For the dothraki to engage? That happens before the storm so I don't see the issue. For the retreat? They managed fine during the episode relaying messages, you could always do real life thing and have a guy on horse relaying messages.

Again. I see you're relying on this idea that the Night King is a chump, rather than a supernatural being whose on a Dragon, who can look down at Winterfell through the darkness and clearly see what's going on below and directly control his army accordingly. He's not walking into a trap.

He kept the white walkers back, until he didn't and got himself killed, he's just as dumb as they are..

Who exactly are you hoping to convince? The battle was already won at that point. The remaining forces in Winterfell were desperately fighting for their lives and the Ironborn in the Godswood had all and been taken out save for Theon.

And you know, killing them off to make Dany weaker makes sense from our perceptive, it doesn't make sense from theirs, maybe Dany wants Cersei to have a fighting chance.

Because it's not like the living are in a fight for their lives against an army of the dead...

I wouldn't have the the wights in the crypt threaten anyone, they'd come to life but they wouldn't be able to get out of their tombs(They cant get trough wood ffs), if anything have tyrion kill some wights there, he's a decent fighter, and it would have him not feeling useless down there. (Why is lyana mormont fighting a not tyrion?)

The wights broke through a couple of wooden doors when they chased Ayra. I don't disagree that it would have been good to see Tyrion dispatch some wights but given the length of the episode already I suspect not everything made it into the final cut. Hopefully when they release the Blu-Ray they'll either release extended episodes or at the very least include some deleted scenes.

I liked the scene where Jon leaves Sam behind to try and fulfill his duty so I'd consider leaving it in, probably try to make it a bit more meaningful though, again Jon letting sam die so he could try to save humanity would have been very impactful.

But Sam didn't die.

I agree that the plot armor needs to go, idk why they couldn't have extras with the named characters to make it all seem a bit less unbelievable.

I'm as disappointed as anyone that neither Brienne, Jamie or Greyworm died as everyone thought, but the truth of the matter is it's clearly important that the former two survive and with the latter, it would be kind of weird to introduce a new Unsullied commander at this late hour so I get why he lived even though it sucked. In an ideal world, they'd have filled out the ranks a bit more and given the likes of Qhono more of a role throughout Season 7 and perhaps brought back the bowman Anguy from the Brotherhood without banners (both of those could have travelled beyond the wall with Jon for instance). But ultimately even with the kind of budget they are working with, there's only so much you can do.

This would be a bigger departure from the episode, but why not have Jon trying to make his way to the godswood and the other white walkers preventing him, have him do something this episode, it's the end of his arc and he is completely useless.

Jon was trying to get to the Godswood. Verserion was blocking him and anyone else from the keep from getting through.

Arya still gets to kill the NK, have her jump from the tree instead or something (which I disagree with as well, her plot never had anything to do white walkers, she hadn't even seem them before, and the whole "blue eyes, green eyes, brow eyes" thing was a huge retcon.)

I've seen this retcon argument doing the rounds, but I think there's a failure to understand that Mel likely just changed it up in the moment to put the emphasis on the particular task in hand (IE: kill the Night King).

Also, I'm fairly sure everyone had plenty of idea what the white walkers and Night King looked like, because its not the kind of information that Either Jon, Tormund or anyone else who escaped from Hardholme or Beyond the wall is going to sit on. It's not necessary to see everything in camera otherwise and therefore assume it didn't occur.

This is exactly what I expected. Winter never came.

Well, perhaps we'd have gotten an extra season or so if GRRM had pulled his finger out of his ass and actually wrote the goddamn books, so the showrunners had something more to work versus an outline.


Anyway to take a lead from Bill O'Rights . Time to move on. Far too many words have been wasted arguing the toss here when the next episode is imminent and with it we with it we'll be able to truly assess the fallout of the battle and the cost to the living.

 

[Grinchy]

Maybe, but I was under the impression that the White Walkers are the reason The Long Night is much more dangerous than your usual winters.

Yeah, that's probably true.

 

[Geki-D]

This video points out something I didn't even think about; The Dothraki don't have dragonglass or Valyrian steel weapons so if Melisandre didn't set their weapons on fire what exactly were they expected to do against an army who can only be killed by fire and weapons they don't have? Melisandre wasn't planned, so what exactly was the plan here? How can this be seen as anything other than sacrificing the Dothraki for absolutely no reason? Why was Daenerys so shocked when she saw the Dothraki all die that she had to change the plan? What exactly did she think the outcome was going to be if Melisandre didn't help?

This is a great example of poor writing based entirely on convenience and writer foreknowledge. The writer knew Melisandre was going to show up, so everything was setup with Melisandre showing up in mind despite the situation making no sense if Melisandre didn't decide to show up.

 

[Kadayi]

This video points out something I didn't even think about; The Dothraki don't have dragonglass or Valyrian steel weapons so if Melisandre didn't set their weapons on fire what exactly were they expected to do against an army who can only be killed by fire and weapons they don't have?

That's not actually the case. plenty of the dead we were cut down at Hardholme by the wildlings using whatever they had to hand.

 

[Geki-D]

That's not actually the case. plenty of the dead we were cut down at Hardholme by the wildlings using whatever they had to hand.

They were cut down but not "killed", merely put into a state where they couldn't effectively fight anymore which was enough to hold them off and escape. Unless you intend to challenge the well established fact in the series that the dead can only be killed in very specific ways.

Hardholme was a hasty defence against the surprise attack of an enemy they knew little about using anything they could get their hands on to hold them back. The Dothraki however were sent dead-on into a battle against an enemy they knew at that point was only vulnerable to fire and 2 types of weapons. Unless you're trying to say that the Dothraki were expected to stun the undead army with a full frontal assault, not actually killing any of their forces but disabling as many as possible, I don't see how these situations are relevant to one another.

Without the fire the Dothraki were being sent into a meat grinder with no hope of survival and the fire wasn't even planned when their charge was decided. The whole charge was based on Melisandre conveniently showing up. It's poor writing.

 

[Kadayi]

They were cut down but not "killed", merely put into a state where they couldn't effectively fight anymore which was enough to hold them off and escape. Unless you intend to challenge the well-established fact in the series that the dead can only be killed in very specific ways

If normal weapons couldn't keep the dead at bay, neither the wildlings or the night's watch would have ever gotten away from them North of the wall as they had neither Dragonglass or Valryian Steel to hand. The Wights are basically zombies. Sure they can take a pasting to the body, but it's pretty clear that decapitations will take them out also.

 

[Tesseract]

well the thing about normal weapons is, you have to chop all their bones apart and separate them, like william wallace

of course the skulls will still roll around, searching for things to bop

 

[Kadayi]

of course the skulls will still roll around, searching for things to bop

 

[Geki-D]

If normal weapons couldn't keep the dead at bay, neither the wildlings or the night's watch would have ever gotten away from them North of the wall as they had neither Dragonglass or Valryian Steel to hand. The Wights are basically zombies. Sure they can take a pasting to the body, but it's pretty clear that decapitations will take them out also.

But the Dothraki aren't trying to keep them at bay, they're meant to be fighting them to the death, they're the ones going in first, they're on the offence not the defence. You're pretty much saying that the Dothraki's charge was aimed at cutting all of their heads off to stop them? Honestly, does that seem reasonable to you? I don't get how you can be arguing for this utter illogical nonsense.

And even then, I'm pretty sure at one point it's established that cutting their heads off doesn't in fact kill a wight. I can't find the scene, but on the GoT wiki it says this:

even amputated limbs would still move around on their own. Decapitation was ineffective, as the headless corpse would keep moving, albeit robbed of its sensory organs.

So without the fire that conveniently shows up at the last minute, you're literally taking the position that the Dothraki's purpose in the battle was to incapacitate an army by dealing very specific blows to a single body part on each undead soldier in the dead of night without any light sources.

As for Hardholme and the frozen lake, yeah it's not "The Battle of Hardholme" but "The Massacre at Hardholme". As in the wildlings were butchered without a chance and the ones that got away did so within an inch of their lives. The frozen lake, I admit the plot armor was thick at that fight too but 2 of them did have weapons that could defeat the dead, and it was a fight they were losing till the dragons showed up. They also never intended to fight that many. It's not like they were charging into an army with the intention of killing as many as possible or something...

 

[Kadayi]

But the Dothraki aren't trying to keep them at bay, they're meant to be fighting them to the death, they're the ones going in first, they're on the offence, not the defence. You're pretty much saying that the Dothraki's charge was aimed at cutting all of their heads off to stop them? Honestly, does that seem reasonable to you? I don't get how you can be arguing for this utter illogical nonsense.

not at all. I just don't subscribe to this conceit that the Wights are wholly unstoppable as your purport devoid of fire, Dragonglass or Valerian Steel in the show. At the end of Hardholme, The Night King didn't raise his fallen again, he raised the wildlings they'd killed. like Karsi. Same deal with the dead he raised in the last episode like Edd, Quoru and Lyanna.

And even then, I'm pretty sure at one point it's established that cutting their heads off doesn't, in fact, kill a wight. I can't find the scene,

Where are the headless wights at? I mean Jesus, we've seen thousands of them throughout the show. Where are the headless ones?

 

[Geki-D]

not at all. I just don't subscribe to this conceit that the Wights are wholly unstoppable as your purport devoid of fire, Dragonglass or Valerian Steel in the show.

Welp, I guess the most obvious way of killing them slipped forgetful Jon's mind when he was explaining all of this to Cersei. Silly him.

At the end of Hardholme, The Night King didn't raise his fallen again, he raised the wildlings they'd killed. like Karsi. Same deal with the dead he raised in the last episode like Edd, Quoru and Lyanna.

...Well yeah, he didn't need to raise his own because so few of them were actually killed because they couldn't be.

Where are the headless wights at? I mean Jesus, we've seen thousands of them throughout the show. Where are the headless ones?

I've already said I can't find a scene, though I know in the books it clearly says as much. But considering that in the video above and at other times we see wight body parts cut off still moving and we know that Wights can take multiple arrows to the head without it stopping them, what makes you think a wight will die if it's head is cut off? Can you show me a scene where this happens? Or where someone says that decapitation is a valid way of killing them?

 

[Kadayi]

Welp, I guess the most obvious way of killing them slipped forgetful Jon's mind when he was explaining all of this to Cersei. Silly him.

Or alternatively, he's there to emphasise the potency of the threat in order to convince Cersei to settle her differences with the North and Dany and join forces with them to defeat the Night King?

...Well yeah, he didn't need to raise his own because so few of them were actually killed because they couldn't be.

So he could have brought this own fallen back, he just didn't? I'm not sure his magic is that discriminatory tbh versus being an AOE kind of deal.

I've already said I can't find a scene, though I know in the books it's clearly says as much. But considering that in the video above and at other times we see wight body parts cut off still moving and we know that Wights can take multiple arrows to the head without it stopping them, what makes you think a wight will die if it's head is cut off? Can you show me a scene where this happens?

So you can't find a scene of headless wights attacking, but at the same time you're demanding that I 'prove' that cutting their heads off actually kills them? I'd say the abject lack of headless wights attacking anyone is fairly demonstrative.



Why isn't that crushed wight getting up there? Why isn't it's head snapping at Jon at least? Is Won Won wearing Dragonglass slippers or something? Makes no sense.

 

[Geki-D]

Or alternatively, he's there to emphasise the potency of the threat in order to convince Cersei to settle her differences with the North and Dany and join forces with them to defeat the Night King?

So he was omitting information. What a sneaky bastard.

So he could have brought this own fallen back, he just didn't? I'm not sure his magic is that discriminatory tbh versus being an AOE kind of deal.

Where did I say he could? I don't even know what you're arguing here. Do we actually see swaths of undead still lying around lifless when the Night King raises the dead?

Why isn't that crushed wight getting up there? Why isn't it's head snapping at Jon at least? Is Won Won wearing Dragonglass slippers or something? Makes no sense.

Because it's crushed? I don't think it's ever been established that wights can walk and move with shattered bones. I'm not saying they can't be stopped, I'm saying they can't be killed and all of this is pointless anyway because even if we agree that after a set amount of hits they can be killed (some we've seen are literal skeletons so how much more damage they would need isn't even clear but whatever), it's still the most ineffective and difficult way of defeating them and sending all of the Dothraki right into an army of them in the pitch black where they could only attack them in the least effective way possible (if the fire didn't conveniently show up) is totally stupid.

 

[RedVIper]

Yet when I ask you to come up with a better battle plan, your approach is simply to turn the Night King into a chump tactically.

The NK is already a chump tactically, he could already have simply went around the entire castle and hit it from behind since it was completely undefended, all I'm doing is trying to give him a reason not to, I'm making him less of a chump. Not sure how many times I have to reiterate this.

I think you're letting the actual practicalities of filming on a live set (they only built a section of wall) lead your biases there. Let's just assume that the living are doing their damnest to fight the army of the dead in the moment, regardless of whatever snapshots the camera shows.

We can't just pretend because they didn't even tell their soldier to man the walls until the wights were already aproaching. Archers are not particurly expensive to film either.

Again you're trying to win a battle that needs to be lost. This isn't a conventional assault, they're getting up the walls of Winterfell World War Z style.

Again the characters don't know this,they're suposed to try to win, just because we know they're meant to lose doesn't mean they just roll over and die.

They had a 3 line defence. Shields, Spears and Archers, and the Dothraki gave zero shirts and ploughed right through them through sheer momentum. Your outright inability to concede a point here is getting a bit wearing.

Go watch the fucking episode, the dothraki outnumber them massively. The dragon blows a massive hole in the shield wall before the dothraki even get there. They had nothing defending their flanks. I'm not sure what to tell you. Light cavalry charging against a proper shield wall is completely fucked. (And again it's canon that the dothraki have had this exact scenary happen and they got completly fucked)
If you want to get trough a wall like that you need heavy cavalry, horses with armor, guys with heavy armor and fucking lances.

Please, Jorah is one of the show's heroes. She's just landed Drogon in the battlefield and blasted a whole swathe of the newly raised with fire, how hard is that to spot?

Jorah isn't a main characther. He starts going to help her, before shes ever in danger, it also makes no sense for him to be able to go trough an entire castle thats overwhelmed with enemies.

So you want her to abandon her plan and land her dragon in the battlefield in the midst of the battle for a tender moment with Jorah instead? Didn't you just say doing so was retarded

It's retarded to land your dragon for no fucking reason, here she'd be trying to save one of her best friends. Atleast you can use emotions as an excuse instead of raw stupidity.

To what purpose? The episode is only so long and they need to get all those narrative beats in. Ten minutes more of battle here, means ten minutes less of something else. Plus again with this idea that the NK is a moron because you're speculating on what the camera isn't showing you.

Don't worry you can save a lot of minutes by cutting out all the useless fake out death.
I'm not speculating, the camera does show that the wights only attack from the front, again, just trying to give NK an excuse to do that. I understand it's a budget constraint.

Again. I see you're relying on this idea that the Night King is a chump, rather than a supernatural being whose on a Dragon, who can look down at Winterfell through the darkness and clearly see what's going on below and directly control his army accordingly. He's not walking into a trap.

Again this, the NK already does this, he already uses his army in a dumb way, I'm trying to give him an excuse.

Who exactly are you hoping to convince? The battle was already won at that point. The remaining forces in Winterfell were desperately fighting for their lives and the Ironborn in the Godswood had all and been taken out save for Theon.

Clearly it wasn't.

Because it's not like the living are in a fight for their lives against an army of the dead...

I'm not even sure what you mean here, if they are fighting for their lives they shouldnt be so suicidal.

The wights broke through a couple of wooden doors when they chased Ayra. I don't disagree that it would have been good to see Tyrion dispatch some wights but given the length of the episode already I suspect not everything made it into the final cut. Hopefully when they release the Blu-Ray they'll either release extended episodes or at the very least include some deleted scenes.

They carried a wights in a wooden box last season, arya and the hound run away and hide behing a wooden door. The episode is not only not consistent with the rest of the show, it's no even consistent with itself.

But Sam didn't die.

I know, I was saying it could make for a nice moment, Jon sacrificing his best friend, to try and save humanity. Not sure if Sam is suposed to have any more development anyway.

I'm as disappointed as anyone that neither Brienne, Jamie or Greyworm died as everyone thought, but the truth of the matter is it's clearly important that the former two survive and with the latter, it would be kind of weird to introduce a new Unsullied commander at this late hour so I get why he lived even though it sucked. In an ideal world, they'd have filled out the ranks a bit more and given the likes of Qhono more of a role throughout Season 7 and perhaps brought back the bowman Anguy from the Brotherhood without banners (both of those could have travelled beyond the wall with Jon for instance). But ultimately even with the kind of budget they are working with, there's only so much you can do.

I don't want them to die, just for them to not have as many fake out deaths, if you want to kill them do it, but pretending you're going to kill them 5 times in the same episode is cheap and it just takes screen time.

Jon was trying to get to the Godswood. Verserion was blocking him and anyone else from the keep from getting through.

Yes and I fundamentally disagree with this part, jon doesn't have an arc now, he spend his entire life fighting for the living only to reeee at a dragon at the end. He was completely useless the entire fight.

I've seen this retcon argument doing the rounds, but I think there's a failure to understand that Mel likely just changed it up in the moment to put the emphasis on the particular task in hand (IE: kill the Night King).

Eh the retcon thing is more based on what the showrunners said.

Also, I'm fairly sure everyone had plenty of idea what the white walkers and Night King looked like, because its not the kind of information that Either Jon, Tormund or anyone else who escaped from Hardholme or Beyond the wall is going to sit on. It's not necessary to see everything in camera otherwise and therefore assume it didn't occur.

My point is that her arc never had anything to do with them, she never cared about white walkers, she didn't become an assassin to defeat white walkers, just did it because she wanted revenge.

Well, perhaps we'd have gotten an extra season or so if GRRM had pulled his finger out of his ass and actually wrote the goddamn books, so the showrunners had something more to work versus an outline.

The showrunners had a shiton of material to work with that they never used, euron is an extremely interesting character that they turned into a fuckboy for no reason, the whole dorne thing. This is all things that were already written and they decided to change.
They could also have used the huge amount of material that there is around the main series, have the prequels run between seasons if you need more time to write.
Although I agree that GRRM is at fault, but it's still the showrunners job

Anyway to take a lead from Bill O'Rights . Time to move on. Far too many words have been wasted arguing the toss here when the next episode is imminent and with it we with it we'll be able to truly assess the fallout of the battle and the cost to the living.

I mean it's a forum, we're meant to discuss things, what else are we supposed to do? I guess we could meme.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Great discussion the last few pages, I appreciate you all (sincerely). I gotta stop making excuses and read the damn books!

Can't wait for tonight, I have no idea what to expect. There are safe routes they can take, there are brave routes they can take. I am exciting to find out which direction they go in.

Counting down the hours!

 

[RedVIper]

Episode leaked.

 

[Punished Miku]

Episode leaked.

I don't see it on my usual nefarious locations. Maybe it'll be up early though.

 

[RedVIper]

I don't see it on my usual nefarious locations. Maybe it'll be up early though.

I already have clips. Not posting it here though.

 

[Raynes]

I already have clips. Not posting it here though.

Is it just clips or is the whole episode out? I don't see the whole episode anywhere.

 

[RedVIper]

Is it just clips or is the whole episode out? I don't see the whole episode anywhere.

I think the whole thing is out. Also it seems the rest of the plot leaks are true, which is...interesting. I see a lot of salty people in my future.

 

[Tesseract]

I think the whole thing is out. Also it seems the rest of the plot leaks are true, which is...interesting. I see a lot of salty people in my future.

wait


jon kills dany?

 

[ruvikx]

I think the whole thing is out. Also it seems the rest of the plot leaks are true, which is...interesting. I see a lot of salty people in my future.

I was reading the latest leaks over at reset. There will be an Internet firestorm if it goes down the way they've predicted.

Spoiler: Spoiler speculation

I can see why Sansa is getting almost artificially elevated as a strong womanz this season because the real strong woman of the show aka Dany is about to become every third wave feminist' own nightmare. Add the fact her armies are comprised of mostly colored people & voilà, shit will hit the fan in terms of SJW meltdowns

.

 

[RedVIper]

wait


jon kills dany?

Idk, I think the leaks that predicted that also correctly predicted things up to episode 4.

But if the guys at HBO aren't complete morons they'd have recorded several endings for the show to prevent this.

 

[Kadayi]

So he was omitting information. What a sneaky bastard.

Brevity.

Where did I say he could? I don't even know what you're arguing here. Do we actually see swaths of undead still lying around lifless when the Night King raises the dead?

Where are my dragons headless wights?

Because it's crushed?

Not the skull

 

[Geki-D]

Where are my dragons headless wights?

Trivial objections fallacy.

Not the skull

The jaw is missing and everything below that is dust. Not sure Wight heads can fly around.

 

[Starfield]

i know the episode leaked but theres no links around, no torrents nothing, how

 

[Raynes]

i know the episode leaked but theres no links around, no torrents nothing, how

It's bs the full episode hasn't leaked. Some thai group out there has acquired it, leaked shots from it and is trying to get money for it.

 

[Kadayi]

Trivial objections fallacy.

Trivial my ass, Headless wights where they at?

Also applicable

 

[Starfield]

It's bs the full episode hasn't leaked. Some thai group out there has acquired it, leaked shots from it and is trying to get money for it.

wow. What a bunch of assholes

 

[Rentahamster]

It's bs the full episode hasn't leaked. Some thai group out there has acquired it, leaked shots from it and is trying to get money for it.

What kinda idiot is gonna pay for it when the actual episode comes out in mere hours?

 

[Kadayi]

What kinda idiot is gonna pay for it when the actual episode comes out in mere hours?

Someone will for sure.

 

[Secret_Lover]

These leaks

I´m very interested in seeing how stupid they can get with this. Last Jedi about to get btfo in the youtube rant department. Should be a fun month.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Just read the spoilers.

Lol fuck this show. Years of investment in characters made pointless by their deaths because of plot convenience.

The hype was so high going into the season. I honestly don’t care to finish the series tho.

They really did a shit job.

 

[EviLore]

Trivial my ass, Headless wights where they at?

It's firmly established in the books that decapitation doesn't stop wights. Jeor Mormont has the Night's Watch bring an unburnt part of the wight that attacked him to King's Landing. It continues to function with the rest of the body destroyed.

If decapitation worked against necromancy, no one would bother burning bodies in the North. It's a costly and time consuming measure to take any time someone dies.

 

[Jon Neu]

Just because you don't understand what's being said doesn't make it stupid .

Yeah, you are being super cryptic and complex.

Almost as cryptic and complex as the show script.

Almost.

There are particular emotive beats that the episode is built upon, that have payoffs for all of the characters within the battle as it progresses

There isn't any built up, there isn't any payoff, there isn't any "emotive beats"; is just people doing nonsense things because the writers don't know how to write this characters. Literally al the deaths in the episode are diminished of what they should have been.

Initially, everyone is pensive because they know the enemy is coming and it's night time which puts them at a natural disadvantage. Cue Melisandre arriving and using her magical power to alight all of the Dothraki swords. Suddenly everyone's feeling pumped up like this: -

Dude, that's the most nonsensical "emotive beat" (whatever that is) ever. Some woman put our swords in fire, let's charge alone against the army of the dead because we are totally going to win! We were going to do it anyway, but this sudden and unexpected aparition it's precisely what we needed to believe that we can kill the entire army of the dead all by ourselves

The dothraki charged because that's the "plan" intentended since the beginning. And somehow then Danny feels bad about the "plan" because suddenly realizes that her dotrahkis are going to die (isn't she smart? as smart as D&D Tyrion) and decides to step into the battle, that's why Jon remembers her "the plan" about the Night King but she doesn't care and goes into the battle anyway, when they were supposed to wait for the Night King and kill him. Greatest plan ever. The writers not only don't know how to write this characters, they don't even know how to write a battle without making it a mess.

The Dothraki do what they are known for and basically charge

I guess your train of thought is the same nonsensical train of thought that the writers had.

Benioff-What we do with the dothrakis? How do we get rid of them?
Weiss-Well, they are known for charging in the open field or something? So we can't do anything else with them, really
Benioff-Yeah, we can't spoil their emotive beat. It's destiny.
Junior Writer- Well, castles are also known for being an amazing multiplier of your forces against an invasor, why don't we us th...
D&D-You're supposed to say that everything we say is awesome, you're fired.

The whole nature of the episode is built around this emotive ebb and flow and how that drives the characters in terms of their response to the turn of events. With Arya for instance, she's super confident and cocksure fighting on the battlements until she's injured and it's only when Melisandre encounters her in the Castle interior that she regains it and understands the nature of her actual true mission. Without that moment of fragility and then clarity, she'd have probably battled vaingloriously like Brienne and Jamie on the battlements or in the Courtyard against the wights, when the real battle to be fought and won was in the Godswood.

There wasn't any emotive flow, there wasn't any believable drive of the characters to be had. Melisandre coming out of nowhere and recite a phrase to Arya so she now understands that she must kill the Night King is the most random and anticlimatic thing ever. That's not emotive flow driving the characters so they response to the turn of events, that's just lazy and bad writing, that's just reconecting some things here and there and then say: see, this was foreshadowed so it totally makes sense! But it's just a crappy and lazy execution of events just for trying to subvert people expectations (and Rian Johnson is proud about it).

The episode is so bad it even destroys the meaning of the very well done episode 2 of this season.

The scene with Arya in the library with the wights was cool, though. That type of survival horror was a nice touch.

I think it's all very well to get caught up in what ifs, but there's an abject failure in doing so to understand the intent and purpose to matters. Like it or not, a considerable number of people spent a great deal of time working out the particular beats to this episode, and even if at times the actual execution by the director might have been lacking, the intent wasn't.

I don't care about the what ifs, nobody does. You are like those dudes that say "you don't like The Last Jedi because you had your own headcanon about Snoke and you are angry!". Yeah, it was just that, otherwise TLJ didn't have any problems, you just can't take being subverted, kiddo.

You literally have dozens of dozens of possible scenarios, and you can make them all work if you have good writing and good execution. Tell me a story that isn't lazily writed and horribly executed, I don't care if Arya has to kill the Night King, but don't make it retarded. I don't care if the Dothrakis have to die, but do it so it makes sense and has a build up and a payoff, so I actually may care about them. If you don't properly build up your plots, then they don't have any impact at the end, your entire shocking ending just looks stupid and unearned.

Please, GRRM is a notorious procrastinator. Quit with the poor George spiel, it got really wearing a good few years back. That fat cunt is probably never finishing the series because he pissed away the 6-year lead he had on the series doing anything and everything to get himself out of that home office of his. Every year a public Mea Culpa, and the faithful declare him 'Not Their Bitch' yet, his calendar quickly fills up with innumerable engagements that take him away from his office so he can have his ego stroked by the fandom both (new and old), or spend his precious writing time pissing it away on side-car projects like The History of Westeros to line the pockets of the gruesome twosome at Westeros.org who are riding his money banana for all they can before he eventually croaks. Tolkein at least had the good sense to finish LoTR before embarking on the Silmarillion. The real kicker is, GRRM hates fanfic and probably won't deign to let anyone else round out the book series out if he does pass before they're concluded.

He being a procrastinator doesn't change anything, he still obviously writes circles around D&D and he still needs a lot of time to write his books at the amazing level of detail, coherence and information they have.

He is capable of writing 400 pages for a year and then see how something about a character doesn't make that much sense, so he rewrites everything to fix it. That's the level of work and quality he sustains himself to. Yeah, he is slow and if it's not in the mood for the heavy task that is writing A Song Of Ice & Fire he just simply writes other things that makes him happy at that moment. But that's how always has been, his books always took years to be made.

But when they come out, they are worth it. Just the Forsaken chapter alone is better than everything D&D have made in their entire lives.

 

[Kadayi]

t's firmly established in the books that decapitation doesn't stop wights. Jeor Mormont has the Night's Watch bring an unburnt part of the wight that attacked him to King's Landing. It continues to function with the rest of the body destroyed.

In the books perhaps, but in the show, I didn't see the legs still moving after Jon Snow stabbed the body of the wight with Dragon glass. In truth, I think the entire thing is a little hazy and not all that thought through by GRRM. I'd expect the North to be roaming with bits of dead wights flip-flopping about if fire is truly the only way to defeat the dead.

 

[Tesseract]

if a hand keeps moving without a body, why the hell wouldn't a body move without a head

this is some metal gear shit, my dudes and dudettes

also uh, i heard a rumor that doom guy makes a cameo in the last episode, can anyone confirm or deny such things

 

[Jon Neu]

In truth, I think the entire thing is a little hazy and not all that thought through by GRRM.

Then you are wrong, again. It's already established in the books, just because you don't like it doesn't make it hazy.

In the show they obviously don't care at all about details and continuity, so it can be whatever.

 

[Tesseract]

ned stark is back boys

 

[Jon Neu]

I hope that isn't a spoiler.

I want to experience the dumbness of the show in all it's glory, without spoilers.

 

[Kadayi]

Then you are wrong, again. It's already established in the books, just because you don't like it doesn't make it hazy.

lol, if every atom of every wight was still magically possessed, the Night King could have taken the wall centuries ago. Just have a thousand arms crawl under the gates and strangle the Nights Watch in their sleep. Not everything that comes out of GRRMs mind is gold.

In the show they obviously don't care at all about details and continuity, so it can be whatever.

I think they've been pretty consistent in terms of no headless wights so far.

 

[EviLore]

In the books perhaps, but in the show, I didn't see the legs still moving after Jon Snow stabbed the body of the wight with Dragon glass. In truth, I think the entire thing is a little hazy and not all that thought through by GRRM. I'd expect the North to be roaming with bits of dead wights flip-flopping about if fire is truly the only way to defeat the dead.

The bottom half of the wight they bring to King’s Landing keeps moving after being severed from the top half by Sandor. There’s your headless wight on-screen on the show.

It’s a budgetary issue since they mostly use guys in green spandex with makeup and compositing.

 

[Tesseract]

I hope that isn't a spoiler.

I want to experience the dumbness of the show in all it's glory, without spoilers.

yeah sorry it's a spoiler, our headless heroes wheel themselves around with blood magic

stannis is the one true king btw

 

[Jon Neu]

lol, if every atom of every wight was still magically possessed, the Night King could have taken the wall centuries ago. Just have a thousand arms crawl under the gates and strangle the Nights Watch in their sleep. Not everything that comes out of GRRMs mind is gold.

Even if your reasoning was ok and there was also a Night King in the books, what does killing the Nightwatch accomplishes?

They still in theory can't pass through the wall. In the books canon, not even dragons can pass through the wall (or at least they don't want to).

I think they've been pretty consistent in terms of no headless wights so far.

Isn't it ironic how you have created your own headcanon that is also totally wrong?

It's beautiful.

 

[Kadayi]

Even if your reasoning was ok and there was also a Night King in the books, what does killing the Nightwatch accomplishes?

Well, it would mean he'd have wights south of the wall who could open the gates allowing the army of the dead to rampage to the south, and murderise all of westeros.

They still in theory can't pass through the wall. In the books canon, not even dragons can pass through the wall (or at least they don't want to).

Pretty sure castle black is on the southern side of the wall. Where was Jeor attacked again. So much for those spells

Isn't it ironic how you have created your own headcanon that is also totally wrong?

Then explain the abject lack of headless wights roaming around

The bottom half of the wight they bring to King’s Landing keeps moving after being severed from the top half by Sandor.

Was it still moving after the Dragonglass in the body though? Or did it cease moving also?

 

[Jon Neu]

Well, it would mean he'd have wights south of the wall who could open the gates allowing the army of the dead to rampage to the south, and murderise all of westeros.

Again, the wall is not only a physical barrier, it's also said to be magical. Dragons could fly pass it easily, but they are incapable of doing so. Maybe because of fear, maybe because of magic, that's still unexplained.

And in the books we don't even know what's the objective of the Others.

Pretty sure castle black is on the southern side of the wall.

Pretty sure a wight is not an Other.

Then explain the abject lack of headless wights roaming around

Evilore already did it.

 

[EviLore]

"We can destroy them by burning them, and we can destroy them with dragonglass."

This is consistent with the books.

The original point of contention was regarding why the Dothraki would be prepared to charge directly at the undead army with normal arakhs prior to Melisandre suddenly showing up to light the weapons on fire. There is no good answer for that.

 

[CrankyJay™]

"We can destroy them by burning them, and we can destroy them with dragonglass."

This is consistent with the books.

The original point of contention was regarding why the Dothraki would be prepared to charge directly at the undead army with normal arakhs prior to Melisandre suddenly showing up to light the weapons on fire. There is no good answer for that.

My only thought is they can separate the wights physically, and Jon and Dany were on overwatch to burn them. This is basically what they were doing once they actually did cut thru the Dothraki in the first place.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

"We can destroy them by burning them, and we can destroy them with dragonglass."

This is consistent with the books.

The original point of contention was regarding why the Dothraki would be prepared to charge directly at the undead army with normal arakhs prior to Melisandre suddenly showing up to light the weapons on fire. There is no good answer for that.

For the plot

Because lazy writing