It's a good world building book, and I liked it on that level, but I really got exhausted by the sluggish movement of the plot. It probably was amplified by the fact that like half the book takes place during the events of Feast, and I was SO ready to move the timeline forward.
I totally disagree about
Theon's chapters, for the most part. I liked the concept, but by the end with his REEK REEK RHYMES WITH LEAK I nearly ripped the book apart and threw it in the furnace
I've heard other book readers say they want 2 for each of those books, but I agree with your idea. In fact I don't see why season 4 can't bleed into a bit of AFFC like season 2 did by having parts of SoS.
Yeesh. I did the same thing after AFFC, read the back of both DWD books and immediately regretted it.
Yeah, is there anyone who thinks it'll be more than two seasons? Two seasons, including the stuff that got cut from the end of Dance and pushed to Winds, and even then they should probably bill it as a single, two part season, to try to manage expectations for the climax of the first half. And this is coming from someone who likes Feast and Dance.
Honestly I think both AFFC and ADWD are fantastic books. I think people will be surprised how much great content D&D have to draw from to produce an entertaining show.
Seriously though, before the series started and I had read the books, I read about everything up through AFFC. Just one thing after the other, couldn't stop. Surprisingly held out for a year and didn't read a single Dance spoiler before I finished that book.
I quite enjoyed the Northern chapters (Bran, Davos, Jon, Theon); Jaime and Cersei's are also great, just like Arya's adventure in Braavos. Victarion's are fun in a completely over-the-top way... and the problem for me lies within Tyrion and Daenerys' chapters. BORING. They're only redeemed by Ser Barristan's awesomeness, by Quentyn's stupdity and the attempt on Daenerys' life. The rest is just a mess of weird names, nondescript characters and FUCKING. DAAAAAAAAAAAAARIO.
I liked all the books in the series, and I really love Feast, but Dance... well, there's a bunch of cool individual moments, but so much of that book is table setting and chess pieces being moved that it's hard to like it unlike the rest. Dance with Dragons is probably the first book in the series I wouldn't list as great. I still didn't mind reading it, it was decent, but definitely a downgrade. So much of it was setting though I have to hope the next book is all explosion.
I really like all of the books overall, but I think Martin stumbled into ASOS without even realizing how great the book actually was until it was over. It really is heads and shoulders above the other books in the series... Mostly (I think) due to how dense and compact the narrative really is in terms of tying the strings together. I really enjoyed AFFC as well, but it suffered greatly from having a large part of its narrative ripped from it and put into ADWD.
To be honest, I'm still wishing Martin did his time jump after ASOS. It seemed like the natural segue-way into the "second half" of a Song of Ice and Fire. I never read up on it, but I'm kind of curious why he abandoned that plan.
To be honest, I'm still wishing Martin did his time jump after ASOS. It seemed like the natural segue-way into the "second half" of a Song of Ice and Fire. I never read up on it, but I'm kind of curious why he abandoned that plan.
IIRC it was because the amount of expositions and flashbacks (or whatever) to explain what happened during those years would've been overwhelming, so he decided to not follow that time-jump idea.
First, let me preface this by saying I've read all the books not including ADWD. And since I don't have cable or on-demand, I end up watching the show whenever the season boxset gets released, almost a year after everything's aired.
That said, regarding the aftermath of last night's episode [ASOS]
and the Red Wedding, has there been any word yet on whether they plan to show the desecration of the corpses? Specifically, the mocking funeral for Catelyn and the displaying of the "Wolf King"? Because as shocking and infuriating as the Red Wedding has clearly been for non-readers, I think showing the aftermath too could be nearly as bad, and maybe the show producers would want to gloss over that quickly rather than reopen a wound so fresh.
I quite enjoyed the Northern chapters (Bran, Davos, Jon, Theon); Jaime and Cersei's are also great, just like Arya's adventure in Braavos. Victarion's are fun in a completely over-the-top way... and the problem for me lies within Tyrion and Daenerys' chapters. BORING. They're only redeemed by Ser Barristan's awesomeness, by Quentyn's stupdity and the attempt on Daenerys' life. The rest is just a mess of weird names, nondescript characters and FUCKING. DAAAAAAAAAAAAARIO.
Everything you say is true. The stuff in the North was my favorite part of any of the books. That fucking letter from Ramsay was terrifying. I anticipate that all of the Dany payoff will happen really quickly in the show, cutting all of the Quentyn story and all of the Harpy's Sons or whatever. We will go straight from Tyrion's escape at the end of season 4 to him showing up in Mereen near the beginning of season 5. Who gives a shit how he got there? Battle of Mereen halfway through season 5. This will require some Victarion/Euron action in season 4, though. Just some thoughts.
First, let me preface this by saying I've read all the books not including ADWD. And since I don't have cable or on-demand, I end up watching the show whenever the season boxset gets released, almost a year after everything's aired.
That said, regarding the aftermath of last night's episode [ASOS]
and the Red Wedding, has there been any word yet on whether they plan to show the desecration of the corpses? Specifically, the mocking funeral for Catelyn and the displaying of the "Wolf King"? Because as shocking and infuriating as the Red Wedding has clearly been for non-readers, I think showing the aftermath too could be nearly as bad, and maybe the show producers would want to gloss over that quickly rather than reopen a wound so fresh.
I don't think we are going to see the mock funeral or the Wolf King at all. I think its going to be talked about, but I don't think we are actually going to see those scenes on screen.
First, let me preface this by saying I've read all the books not including ADWD. And since I don't have cable or on-demand, I end up watching the show whenever the season boxset gets released, almost a year after everything's aired.
That said, regarding the aftermath of last night's episode [ASOS]
and the Red Wedding, has there been any word yet on whether they plan to show the desecration of the corpses? Specifically, the mocking funeral for Catelyn and the displaying of the "Wolf King"? Because as shocking and infuriating as the Red Wedding has clearly been for non-readers, I think showing the aftermath too could be nearly as bad, and maybe the show producers would want to gloss over that quickly rather than reopen a wound so fresh.
Wolf King may happen. (Reports indicate a scene was filmed with an ox head on a body or something). Cat's "funeral" is hopefully at least mentioned, since it is so pivotal. It would be nice to show it.
Maybe they'll change things so that Jorah will leave Daario to his death during the capture of Meereen in Season 4, precipitating his dismissal from Dany. The "I kinda spied on you" angle doesn't really feel strong enough in the show to warrant her rejecting him.
I don't think we are going to see the mock funeral or the Wolf King at all. I think its going to be talked about, but I don't think we are actually going to see those scenes on screen.
Her thoughts while she's roaming the Dothraki Sea, to some people, show that like her father she is descending into madness. She is a product of inbreeding, after all. Just like Joffrey.
Her thoughts while she's roaming the Dothraki Sea, to some people, show that like her father she is descending into madness. She is a product of inbreeding, after all. Just like Joffrey.
There's plenty of stuff that happens in AFFC/ADWD, a lot of which is awesome and I think it'll translate fine on screen. When people say "nothing" happens in either book IMO they're saying "I didn't like what happened."
That being said, I do believe structural problems could occur, specifically
(ADWD/AFFC):
-I can't imagine viewers caring about Dorne. The Red Viper will be cool next year, but everyone else will likely garner yawns. Personally I loved this arc
-Given the almost universal negative reactions to Theon this season, I also doubt viewers will be interested in his story or most of the Greyjoy stuff, or having to see the Boltons on screen with no comeuppance in sight. That being said I doubt this is an arc that will take up much time on the show
-People expect Dany to go to Westeros soon. Still, I think her Mereen situation could be condensed into 5 or so episodes before the "big" event - ie the assassination attempt, her escape on Drogon, and the eventual Mereen battle (all of which will be good television).
IMO I think AFFC will translate very well on screen, given the drama focus of the show thus far
-The King's Landing scenes have been solid for three seasons, and will be great during AFFC. Cersei v Margery, Jaime's vigil for his father and his deteriorating relationship with his sister, and perhaps most importantly the epic fall of Cersei. Also I think it would be a good idea to have the Queen of Thorns stay in King's Landing.
-Brienne has been quite popular among viewers, and her story could be consolidated easily. It could also re-introduce Gendry somehow.
-IMO they should send Sam to King's Landing for his training, instead of Oldstown. And having Jaqen kill Pate would be interesting
I need to reread AFFC and DWD. I remember bracing for disappointment and finding AFFC a letdown from the previous three but not that bad and then being very disappointed once DwD finally came out. Felt so padded to me at the time with tons of useless content. If it actually feels that way again on reread, I hope we can somehow miraculously get Winds in time for the showrunners to speed through/truncate Feast and Dance to get to its storylines. Wishful thinking, I know. Is he even a third of the way through it?
Yeah, is there anyone who thinks it'll be more than two seasons? Two seasons, including the stuff that got cut from the end of Dance and pushed to Winds, and even then they should probably bill it as a single, two part season, to try to manage expectations for the climax of the first half. And this is coming from someone who likes Feast and Dance.
I'm thinking three seasons for Feast/Dance, personally. There's a lot of stuff going on, and they'll be needing to
introduce a lot of new characters and locations, which will require some additional scenes. Coupled with the fact that characters like Sansa, Arya, Littlefinger, Bran, etc don't have a lot of material and will need to have new stuff so that the actors can stay on screen (just as we've seen with Theon this season and Jaime and Tywin last season), I think three seasons makes perfect sense.
Martin also said back around when Season 2 started that he thought they should do two seasons for Storm and three for a combined Feast/Dance. I think they'll likely wind up doing that.
I hope they show it SO BAD. I am so tired of wankers making our shows all wishy-washy with their "OMG IT'S TOO BRUTAL" and shit. <ASOS>
This is the historical period they're drawing on for inspiration, fuckin' blink if you don't want to see cold hard REALITY BOMBS in your tv show.
Note: I know they only 'talked' about it happening in the book, but I think it absolutely needs to be shown for the impact - this is how little regard they have for the King of the North, this is how they mock him, these are the stakes.
There's plenty of stuff that happens in AFFC/ADWD, a lot of which is awesome and I think it'll translate fine on screen. When people say "nothing" happens in either book IMO they're saying "I didn't like what happened."
That being said, I do believe structural problems could occur, specifically
(ADWD/AFFC):
-I can't imagine viewers caring about Dorne. The Red Viper will be cool next year, but everyone else will likely garner yawns. Personally I loved this arc
-Given the almost universal negative reactions to Theon this season, I also doubt viewers will be interested in his story or most of the Greyjoy stuff, or having to see the Boltons on screen with no comeuppance in sight. That being said I doubt this is an arc that will take up much time on the show
-People expect Dany to go to Westeros soon. Still, I think her Mereen situation could be condensed into 5 or so episodes before the "big" event - ie the assassination attempt, her escape on Drogon, and the eventual Mereen battle (all of which will be good television).
IMO I think AFFC will translate very well on screen, given the drama focus of the show thus far
-The King's Landing scenes have been solid for three seasons, and will be great during AFFC. Cersei v Margery, Jaime's vigil for his father and his deteriorating relationship with his sister, and perhaps most importantly the epic fall of Cersei. Also I think it would be a good idea to have the Queen of Thorns stay in King's Landing.
-Brienne has been quite popular among viewers, and her story could be consolidated easily. It could also re-introduce Gendry somehow.
-IMO they should send Sam to King's Landing for his training, instead of Oldstown. And having Jaqen kill Pate would be interesting
It's not really that I think nothing happens in those books; it's just that I feel Martin pads it out way more than is necessary. There are also a whole bunch of inclusions that I specifically disliked- DwD
the Tyrion death fakeouts and Quentyn Martell specifically- his fate is appropriate, but his storyline feels redundant thematically given the rest of the series.
Martin also said back around when Season 2 started that he thought they should do two seasons for Storm and three for a combined Feast/Dance. I think they'll likely wind up doing that.
I don't get why readers were posting in the no book spoilers thread. Sure I was excited as any to read the reactions, but taunting people and what not? C'mon, man.
I can't stay in that thread anymore. I can actually feel my heart rate increasing and blood pressure rising. Stuff like "Jaime's story is told from his perspective, so you get a better sense of him as a character in the books" is being construed as a spoiler somehow and will no doubt get that guy banned. Watchers ask for clarification on certain things that have already happened and I have to edit my post to the point where I'm absolutely sure nothing I have ever appeared in the books only- even if it would be just meaningless flavor- at which point I decide not to post it all. As a person who takes a lot of joy in seeing others come to appreciate things that I have and who despises spoilers and those that would post them, I'm fed up with the sheer paranoia and straight up lazy blanket treatment mentality in that thread. and angry, which is not at all how I expected to feel today. I guess the schadenfreude is their's after all.
Stuff like "Jaime's story is told from his perspective, so you get a better sense of him as a character in the books" is being construed as a spoiler somehow and will no doubt get that guy banned.
I don't get why readers were posting in the no book spoilers thread. Sure I was excited as any to read the reactions, but taunting people and what not? C'mon, man.
I've never seen so many people so up in arms over something as friendly and non-threatening as a little ribbing over someone finally experiencing something amazing that you also got to experience. it's about connecting to your fellow man, vicariously living through their experiences, and then laughing about it together afterwards. I totally agree with the spoilering shit, and with the spamming, but the friendly "haha, it just got real, didn't it show watchers" - which is really the median of what every post from the book readers is about - is just something I can't agree with. That's just too sensitive.
Do you really tell your friends to lay off you when they're teasing you about something like that? It's so harmless and playful and from a place of love, not hate.
I understand that that is the approach, but I disagree that it should be. I agree that they shouldn't be posting that if the watchers don't want it, but we should be able to use a little bit of critical reading comprehension and determine whether or not anything was actually spoiled before straight up banning someone. Banning everyone who even mentions the books as bishoptl has now threatened strikes me as lazy and possibly even emotionally fueled by the latest events. There are readers that have posted inappropriate things and readers that have simply slipped up; one should apply some actual evaluation in the course of determining their punishment. Duckroll's approach seemed much better to me.
I've never seen so many people so up in arms over something as friendly and non-threatening as a little ribbing over someone finally experiencing something amazing that you also got to experience. it's about connecting to your fellow man, vicariously living through their experiences, and then laughing about it together afterwards. I totally agree with the spoilering shit, and with the spamming, but the friendly "haha, it just got real, didn't it show watchers" - which is really the median of what every post from the book readers is about - is just something I can't agree with. That's just too sensitive.
Do you really tell your friends to lay off you when they're teasing you about something like that? It's so harmless and playful and from a place of love, not hate.
I don't think there's anything wrong at all with one comment like that. (Or in real life, making it to a friend.) The problem is if everyone makes one light-hearted ribbing in the thread then there are about 200 light-hearted ribbings in the thread, and they're all the same joke. If I had a dime for every variation of "your tears sustain me" that appeared in that thread... well OK I'd probably only have sixty or seventy cents but that is still way too much.
I don't think there's anything wrong at all with one comment like that. (Or in real life, making it to a friend.) The problem is if everyone makes one light-hearted ribbing in the thread then there are about 200 light-hearted ribbings in the thread, and they're all the same joke. If I had a dime for every variation of "your tears sustain me" that appeared in that thread... well OK I'd probably only have sixty or seventy cents but that is still way too much.
Personally I find the gloating annoying. I'd much rather watch people's reactions to the show, not their reactions to the show as well as to book readers being annoying. Let people enjoy the show.
I've never seen so many people so up in arms over something as friendly and non-threatening as a little ribbing over someone finally experiencing something amazing that you also got to experience. it's about connecting to your fellow man, vicariously living through their experiences, and then laughing about it together afterwards. I totally agree with the spoilering shit, and with the spamming, but the friendly "haha, it just got real, didn't it show watchers" - which is really the median of what every post from the book readers is about - is just something I can't agree with. That's just too sensitive.
Do you really tell your friends to lay off you when they're teasing you about something like that? It's so harmless and playful and from a place of love, not hate.
This guy gets it. People are missing the point. This is GRRM we're talking about. It is a testament to how good of a story he has conceived, getting you emotionally invested in fictional characters, and then taking it all away. Such is life.
"If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."
Yeah, I wish, at least for the airing of the episode itself, we had stuck with the plan of just sending the one "sends their regards" post to cut down on that. Shame the silence was broken by a bunch of grinch gifs.
Let us all not forget: Jorah, has reached new levels of butthurt-ness after yesterdays episode. The look on his face when Dany asks about Daario... poor guy.
While I think it is absolutely ridiculous to care so much about this story and yet be entering the third year of not reading the books that are so easily available, I think it is equally ridiculous to go into a thread that is specifically for those people just to post "I knew that was going to happen, suck it non-readers!" As if you had something to do with the events playing out.
Let us all not forget: Jorah, has reached new levels of butthurt-ness after yesterdays episode. The look on his face when Dany asks about Daario... poor guy.
This episode had a critical mass of amazing reactions between Jorah's, Bolton's as Catelyn pulls up the sleeve, Ygritte's as John rides off, Edmure's face during the unveiling of the daughters and his bride, and Walder's face when Robb sees the bride. Straight up gold mine.
