• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Game of Thrones *Tagged Book Spoilers, Please Read OP* |OT| Season 3 - Sundays on HBO

Status
Not open for further replies.

fallengorn

Bitches love smiley faces
It sadly lacked one thing. RIP Butterbumps :(

And are they ever going to have that fucking song in the show? It was in the pilot script. Maybe they'll have it in the episode with the same title.
They had The Hold Steady do a cover of it so it should be in the show somewhere.

Thoros should've sang it. :\

Speaking of which, anyone else lukewarm on Thoros? I guess he's now a composite of the other prominent members of the Brotherhood.
 
Just saw the "April Fools Joke" where they said Warwick Davis was gonna replace dinklage. Acting ability aside, he probably looks more like how Tyrion should look.
 
They had The Hold Steady do a cover of it so it should be in the show somewhere.

Thoros should've sang it. :\

Speaking of which, anyone else lukewarm on Thoros? I guess he's now a composite of the other prominent members of the Brotherhood.

Sweet.

Yeah, I thought Thoros should have sang it, it would have been more in keeping, but ASOS
I guess they really want to drive the Rains of Castamere in before we get to that scene.

Thoros wasn't quite as I imagined him, but so far he's alright. At least better than what we've gotten from Tormund so far.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
The key thing is the way she's portrayed. That scene (and everything leading up to it) makes it seem as though she has learned absolutely nothing this entire time, that's she's just a dumb kid who has made absolutely no progress. Her character is pretty much the same as it was in the first season.

You should reread the books. Arya doesn't smarten up until much later. [ASOS]
Until she's off with the Hound and goes through the RW I would say. Before that there's tons of stupid mistakes she makes, amongst which getting "caught" by the Brotherhood.
 

Chatin

Member
Was an interesting episode, but it's driving itself further from the books. There wasn't a single scene that either met or improved upon the events in the books.

I found it astonishing that Sansa would reveal so much, so loudly and so openly, where little birds are known to be at every corner. The song was really needed for this scene.

Also don't understand the show's obsession with dedicating so much dialogue to talking openly about Renly/Loras. As funny as Jaime's joke about a throne of cocks was, this time could be better suited to building on characters and relationships that are still around.

Regarding Bran/The Reeds:
Is the show implying that Jojen has the same abilities as Bran? I was waiting for him to make the distinction of the Green Dreams, but he didn't bother. It had also never been my interpretation in the books that the three-eyed crow was Bran. Was this just my misinterpretation or is the show really just intent on taking it in another direction?

EDIT: And in regards to Arya's scene: "Leave us be, and I won't kill you." followed by "What friends?" It seemed to speak less about the Brotherhood's control of the situation and more about Arya not knowing how to string together a white lie.
 

RaidenZR

Member
You should reread the books. Arya doesn't smarten up until much later. [ASOS]
Until she's off with the Hound and goes through the RW I would say. Before that there's tons of stupid mistakes she makes, amongst which getting "caught" by the Brotherhood.

I reread ACOK and ASOS before the season began (spoilers for those).
Smartening up is one thing but Arya changes throughout those two books. By the time she is with the Brotherhood she's desperate not to be 'captured' again. There is definitely more on the page than there has been on-screen so far, no matter how slow they think they should roll with her.

Edit: I'm adding to this. [AGOT/ACOK/ASOS]
She's been humiliated and put down a lot by this point in the book and she's growing frustrated by it. It's in ASOS where she realizes how rewarding the world is of honor, so she's convincing herself not to fall into the same traps her father did. The show's not touching shit in regards to that attitude. And sure, a lot of that is covered in inner monologue, but you don't even get a feel for it. There are times where Arya is a victim, but there are times when she also has sparks of control and defiance that pan out. It's not happening and they are bumbling the source material like they have with Jon's. Being clever with a few lines to Tywin and Thoros is not enough, in my opinion. She needed some more depictions of getting stepped on and spat at, or pushed down in the mud and having her face rubbed in it. Not literally of course (though more of that would help), but that stuff is what begins to temper her personality further. Her life is/was constantly in jeopardy at Harrenhal and beyond, and all the tall figures around her let her know it. The talking down to her, relentlessly, with threats of murder and rape. In my opinion, the show is on thin ice with its cute Arya-hijinksy-material, and that's way off the mark.

I'm open minded they'll still manage to convey some competence as the season carries on, but we'll see. The showrunnners have made an uphill battle for themselves in terms of winning over the ASOIAF fanbase.
 

jett

D-Member
Sweet.

Yeah, I thought Thoros should have sang it, it would have been more in keeping, but ASOS
I guess they really want to drive the Rains of Castamere in before we get to that scene.

Thoros wasn't quite as I imagined him, but so far he's alright. At least better than what we've gotten from Tormund so far.

Tormund is unrecognizable. The showrunners seem to have the impression that 95% of the characters must be as gruff and dull as possible. They've taken out the color out of the books.
 

Eidan

Member
[ASoS]
Let me put it this way. In the book, you have a morally grey Tyrion (tries to do good, but isn't quite Ned Stark and will certainly cheat, lie and murder to climnb up the ladder) and a morally grey Shae (not a monster, but a selfish and manipulative gold digger who doesn't care about anything except her luxuries and who has no qualms about humiliating Tyrion at his trial). When everything crumbles down, their actions make sense; Shae wants to keep her gold and jewels, and is probably terrified of Cersei and Tywin, so she betrays Tyrion to Cersei and fucks Tywin (the hypocrite) to keep her status and possibly her life. When confronted by Tyrion, she tries to manipulate him by playing up the scared part, but she just goes a wee bit too far and Tyrion sees through her. That she's in Tywin's bed at the time doesn't help. Tyrion, by now a defeated, broken and humiliated man, kills her in a rage.

Now let's look at the TV show. Tyrion is hardly grey anymore. Shae is a very different character indeed, but in more sense than one now. Initially she was still just a gold digging whore like in the book, but she had different origins (foreign and highborn), and she was sassy and kinda bitchy. Those were the differences with book-Shae, who had lowborn origins and who acted all sweet and charming (as part of her job). Now, though, they've made her all tough (the knife "no one is raping me!" in Blackwater), fiercely protective of Sansa, contemptuous of rapists (book-Shae rolled her eyes at the suffering of a woman who was gang-raped, "all they did was fuck her"). It's unclear if she genuinely likes Tyrion or is just pretending as part of her job, but all indications show it's the former, especially with considering all the rest. So, she's more likeable.

Yet somehow, we're to expect good-guy Tyrion will end up murdering a woman who is protective of Sansa (who will become his wife)? Unless they throw in some weird twist, I just don't see that happening. You suggested the jealousy angle, but that was just bad writing. It's not remotely believable that Shae, even TV-Shae, would react wildly to Tyrion calling a pretty lady pretty and be offended that he's "such a perv" (FFS, she's an experienced whore!). It was completely anachronistic and out of character (even for TV-Shae). But even if we go with this, and Shae is jealous of Tyrion's wedding and physical attraction to Sansa, why would she betray him at the trial when it'd also incriminate Sansa, whom she's protective of?

I just think this new story is a mess, badly written, badly acted, and most of all, unnecessary, as there were no time or budget restrictions there and they could simply have kept Shae and her story as she was from the book. They tried to improve upon the book, and once again, they failed miserably.

ASOS
I said the jealousy angle would just be the seed. I also said that considering that all of Shae's support systems would be gone after Joffrey's wedding, it still makes perfect sense that she would betray Tyrion and Sansa, because at the end of the day one quality both the book Shae and her television counterpart have in common is that they are both survivors.

As for the whitewashing bit, I still don't see what that has to do with killing Shae. Do you believe that Tyrion killed Shae because he's "grey" (as if that somehow unlocks a "choke person who betrayed you" option on his dialogue wheel), or because he had just been humiliated, framed, sentenced to death, abandoned and betrayed by every person he had trusted, or thought to trust, and as a final humiliation, found the woman he foolishly cared for in his father's bed. The same father who had chastised him and belittled him his entire life for whoring. Nothing about Tyrion's supposed whitewashing would make him killing Shae in this instance seem out-of-character.
 

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Tormund is unrecognizable. The showrunners seem to have the impression that 95% of the characters must be as gruff and dull as possible. They've taken out the color out of the books.

Kristofer Kivju looks perfect for the part but he seems pretty bland so far, though to be fair he's only gotten one small scene. I'm still holding out hope that the real Tormund is in there somewhere.
 

-griffy-

Banned
That speech by Catelyn about her sin being that she was unable to love Jon and that caused everything just makes absolutely zero sense to me from any perspective. I literally have no idea how to even interpret this addition/change. Catelyn never had that remorse whatsoever, never even hinted at in the book or in the show. She's been nothing but crude to him, when did any expression of guilt ever treat to her over Jon? Ever even been hinted at? Am I missing some element here? It doesn't even make sense in the context of the plot itself, and Catelyn has never struck me as someone so over-the-top religious that she'd feel like God was punishing her for not loving Jon enough.

I dunno. The episode was decent (Lady Olenna is fucking perfect), but this is the change that has perplexed me most other than Arya's story bastardization (which I can see continues to be bastardized; now Arya is once again a dumbass bitch incapable of using a sword in any effective manner?).

It was one of the best scenes in the episode, in my opinion. And it's a worthwhile addition based on what's to come.

That scene is when the guilt is hinted at, it didn't exist before all the events following Ned leaving Winterfell (which is the last time we see Cat and Jon interact). She now feels guilty after all this shit has happened to her family. Winterfell being burned to the ground and Bran and Rickon possibly being killed is what put her over the edge. She's making a dreamcatcher thing like she already did when Bran fell and was in a coma, so that whole thing was established. It was a touching scene that humanized Cat more, and is bittersweet now that Jon is utterly disconnected from everything happening to his family.

Not all changes or additions are bad.
 
Theon is a tragic character. YOU can dislike him all you want but he did nothing to deserve what he got.

Yes he did, he murdered tons of innocents he used to know just because his father wanted him to.

Edit: Oh, this is the book thread, I will be taking my leave now.
 

Dysun

Member
A lot of jumping the gun with Mance and Tormund. They've been on screen for like 5 minutes questioning a crow who might be a traitor, give it a chance
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
A lot of jumping the gun with Mance and Tormund. They've been on screen for like 5 minutes questioning a crow who might be a traitor, give it a chance

I like Mance. Yes I would have liked someone younger looking, but the actor seems totally competent int he role and I'm confident will make it work.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Theon is a tragic character. YOU can dislike him all you want but he did nothing to deserve what he got.

I agree. He certainly deserves some form of punishment, but I absolutely feel sympathy for him. He was all but forced into situations he didn't want to be in by both sides, and was trying to do what he thought was "right." His actions were the result of misguided attempts at becoming a worthwhile part of his family again, brought about by his asshole father and sister shaming him. It was a snowball rolling down a hill that he couldn't stop.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I agree. He certainly deserves some form of punishment, but I absolutely feel sympathy for him. He was all but forced into situations he didn't want to be in by both sides, and was trying to do what he thought was "right." His actions were the result of misguided attempts at becoming a worthwhile part of his family again, brought about by his asshole father and sister shaming him. It was a snowball rolling down a hill that he couldn't stop.

I don't know about this. Every indication seems to be that he was treated well by the Stark's and he seemed pretty proud of his position in Robb's army. He was put in a horrible position by his father, yes, but in the end, he chose to be a miserable shit.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
I don't know about this. Every indication seems to be that he was treated well by the Stark's and he seemed pretty proud of his position in Robb's army. He was put in a horrible position by his father, yes, but in the end, he chose to be a miserable shit.

Heck, all he does is whine about his standings the moment he's on the way to the Islands.

He wanted something more memorable? Well now he has it.
 

Gvaz

Banned

He kind of did...

Not at all. He killed people in war, and the most "bad" thing he did was murder two children to pose as bran and rickon in order to take the castle so his father would respect him over his sister. and got pushed into killing a man he never wanted to kill.

What did he get?

ASOS+
Tortured physically and mentally, raped, abused, forced to perform sex acts on someone else, etc.

No one fucking deserves that.
 

jett

D-Member
Not at all. He killed people in war, and the most "bad" thing he did was murder two children to pose as bran and rickon in order to take the castle so his father would respect him over his sister. and got pushed into killing a man he never wanted to kill.

What did he get?

ASOS+
Tortured physically and mentally, raped, abused, forced to perform sex acts on someone else, etc.

No one fucking deserves that.

He absolutely deserved all of that.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Not at all. He killed people in war, and the most "bad" thing he did was murder two children to pose as bran and rickon in order to take the castle so his father would respect him over his sister. and got pushed into killing a man he never wanted to kill.


Don't forget the untold number he and/or his men raped and pillaged in the villages along the sea before heading to Winterfell.
 

-griffy-

Banned
There you go.

That still doesn't preclude his story being a tragic one. He was treated well by the Starks, yes, but he was still an unwitting political pawn, essentially a hostage held by the Starks so his father would behave. And upon returning home for the first time since being a young boy, he isn't greeted warmly but instead shunned and criticized for things he had absolutely no control over. It's a horrible situation. He could have been a great friend to Robb had Robb not sent him home to try and ally with his father, and the tragedy comes from the fact that he did get sent home, setting into motion the events that followed.
 

Gvaz

Banned
Don't forget the untold number he and/or his men raped and pillaged in the villages along the sea before heading to Winterfell.

I don't know about him as it was never stated, but I don't feel that the person in charge is responsible for the actions of a bunch of wild folk who only follow his orders when it suits them
 

Grifter

Member
Caught up with the S3 intro, I thought that was Lucius Vorenus from HBO's Rome as the fake Mance Raydor but it's not on his IMDB.
 

Amir0x

Banned
It was one of the best scenes in the episode, in my opinion. And it's a worthwhile addition based on what's to come.

That scene is when the guilt is hinted at, it didn't exist before all the events following Ned leaving Winterfell (which is the last time we see Cat and Jon interact). She now feels guilty after all this shit has happened to her family. Winterfell being burned to the ground and Bran and Rickon possibly being killed is what put her over the edge. She's making a dreamcatcher thing like she already did when Bran fell and was in a coma, so that whole thing was established. It was a touching scene that humanized Cat more, and is bittersweet now that Jon is utterly disconnected from everything happening to his family.

The guilt is not 'hinted at' during the scene, it's explicitly stated. That's not nuance and it's not something the show earned: it's just Catelyn doing something that to the audience is by all intents and purposes completely out-of-character. Catelyn is mad with love for her children, and she has never shown the least shred of concern about Jon over anything.. only absolute scorn, even well into his manhood.

It doesn't even make a shred of sense either, as I said in the other post. There is no new event leading up to this that should even have Jon on her mind, how does she jump to THAT as the first reason to feel guilty? She let out the f00kin' Kingslayer, maybe start with that? Or hell, imprisoning Tyrion? Going further back, there are a host of things she could feel guilty about regarding her own flesh and blood that would make more sense from the perspective a Mother might feel irrationally in moments of weakness. But to hate Jon all her life, show no sign of any regret at any moment on the show or in the book, and then to immediately jump to this point?

I don't know, it's ridiculous. It's cool if you can accept the change, but it's terrible.

Not all changes or additions are bad.

I totally agree. This change just happens to be an abomination, is all.
 

Snake

Member
Don't forget the untold number he and/or his men raped and pillaged in the villages along the sea before heading to Winterfell.

Plenty of men under Robb's command have done as much and worse I'm sure. It's wartime after all. Drogo and his people clearly did much worse and you never saw anyone calling for him to be tortured mercilessly.

The only difference is that we've seen Theon directly involved in the murder of two children, and we've seen it up close and personal. Theon also happens to be portrayed as a weak and pathetic character, which does not inspire people to defend him.
 

-griffy-

Banned
The guilt is not 'hinted at' during the scene, it's explicitly stated. That's not nuance and it's not something the show earned: it's just Catelyn doing something that to the audience is by all intents and purposes completely out-of-character. Catelyn is mad with love for her children, and she has never shown the least shred of concern about Jon over anything.. only absolute scorn, even well into his manhood.

It doesn't even make a shred of sense either, as I said in the other post. There is no new event leading up to this that should even have Jon on her mind, how does she jump to THAT as the first reason to feel guilty? She let out the f00kin' Kingslayer, maybe start with that? Or hell, imprisoning Tyrion? Going further back, there are a host of things she could feel guilty about regarding her own flesh and blood that would make more sense from the perspective a Mother might feel irrationally in moments of weakness. But to hate Jon all her life, show no sign of any regret at any moment on the show or in the book, and then to immediately jump to this point?

I don't know, it's ridiculous. It's cool if you can accept the change, but it's terrible.



I totally agree. This change just happens to be an abomination, is all.
The whole point of the scene and story is that she DIDN'T show any remorse or love for Jon even though she promised to the gods that she would if baby Jon survived the night. But she never did, she couldnt bring herself to love the child. So now she feels like the gods are bringing ruin upon her family since she betrayed her promise. That's why we've never seem it hinted at or anything, it's based on a promise she made before the show started, and is in her mind causing events happening now. It all makes perfect sense.
Not to mention its a relatively minor character building scene that will likely not come up again.
 

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
The guilt is not 'hinted at' during the scene, it's explicitly stated. That's not nuance and it's not something the show earned: it's just Catelyn doing something that to the audience is by all intents and purposes completely out-of-character. Catelyn is mad with love for her children, and she has never shown the least shred of concern about Jon over anything.. only absolute scorn, even well into his manhood.

It doesn't even make a shred of sense either, as I said in the other post. There is no new event leading up to this that should even have Jon on her mind, how does she jump to THAT as the first reason to feel guilty? She let out the f00kin' Kingslayer, maybe start with that? Or hell, imprisoning Tyrion? Going further back, there are a host of things she could feel guilty about regarding her own flesh and blood that would make more sense from the perspective a Mother might feel irrationally in moments of weakness. But to hate Jon all her life, show no sign of any regret at any moment on the show or in the book, and then to immediately jump to this point?

I don't know, it's ridiculous. It's cool if you can accept the change, but it's terrible.



I totally agree. This change just happens to be an abomination, is all.
I have to agree with you. Even if the show wants to use her weaving that thing for the Seven as a plot device to make her remember the time she made one for Jon as a young boy and the broken promise she made then why didn't she remember it in S1 when making one for Bran? Why didn't her guilt over Jon start to boil up then and make her question whether or not Bran's fall was the Gods getting back at her for how she treated Jon? Instead, she treated Jon like shit while making that thing for Bran.
 

Massa

Member
I have to agree with you. Even if the show wants to use her weaving that thing for the Seven as a plot device to make her remember the time she made one for Jon as a young boy and the broken promise she made then why didn't she remember it in S1 when making one for Bran? Why didn't her guilt over Jon start to boil up then and make her question whether or not Bran's fall was the Gods getting back at her for how she treated Jon? Instead, she treated Jon like shit while making that thing for Bran.

Before: Bran falls.

Now: Bran and Rickon are kidnapped or dead, Sansa is hostage, Arya is missing or dead, husband is dead.

It's completely credible that she would feel cursed now but not before. Book readers trying to wear the boots of non-book readers to find problems with the show usually doesn't work well at all, and imo this is yet another example. Cat's scene was a highlight of the show for most people.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
I'm glad we cut down on the amount of characters we follow after this season, there was way too much boring/set-up in this episode.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
That speech by Catelyn about her sin being that she was unable to love Jon and that caused everything just makes absolutely zero sense to me from any perspective. I literally have no idea how to even interpret this addition/change. Catelyn never had that remorse whatsoever, never even hinted at in the book or in the show. She's been nothing but crude to him, when did any expression of guilt ever treat to her over Jon? Ever even been hinted at? Am I missing some element here? It doesn't even make sense in the context of the plot itself, and Catelyn has never struck me as someone so over-the-top religious that she'd feel like God was punishing her for not loving Jon enough.

I dunno. The episode was decent (Lady Olenna is fucking perfect), but this is the change that has perplexed me most other than Arya's story bastardization (which I can see continues to be bastardized; now Arya is once again a dumbass bitch incapable of using a sword in any effective manner?).
So much this. Thank you.

I know she makes a lot of mistakes, but she also goes through a lot of hardships and you really feel the process of her becoming hardened. She makes a lot of tough choices, not all of them good, and is constantly fighting to take control of her destiny. She also gets her hands dirty a lot more, has to deal with starvation, more hiding, etc. Her anger and desire to kill grow constantly. You get the feeling of a constant HONING of her character.


The show version is pretty much a walk in the park. She just bumbles along, letting the wind take her pretty much wherever, learns nothing along the way, and really doesn't change at all. She's still extremely innocent. In this last episode you could take the character who was fighting the butcher's boy in Season 1, place her in the inn with Thoros, and pretty much nothing would be different about it.
Also this. Glad I'm not the only one who feels Arya's nerfing. It's infuriating. Arya is my favourite character and the actress is wonderful, but the writers are wasting her so bad.

ASOS
As for the whitewashing bit, I still don't see what that has to do with killing Shae. Do you believe that Tyrion killed Shae because he's "grey" (as if that somehow unlocks a "choke person who betrayed you" option on his dialogue wheel), or because he had just been humiliated, framed, sentenced to death, abandoned and betrayed by every person he had trusted, or thought to trust, and as a final humiliation, found the woman he foolishly cared for in his father's bed. The same father who had chastised him and belittled him his entire life for whoring. Nothing about Tyrion's supposed whitewashing would make him killing Shae in this instance seem out-of-character.
Uhhh of course Tyrion's personality and character has
something to do with his murder of Shae. Do you think Ned, even in a similarly desperate and humiliated situation, would resort to murder the way Tyrion did? It has very much to do with his character. And I might grant that a whitewashed Tyrion would still murder Shae as presented in the books, but it doesn't make sense with a more sympathetic TV-Shae. Who, by the way, can apparently fend off rapists with a knife, so I wonder how Tyrion will strangle her. I guess he'll just crossbow her as well. Eh.


Not all changes or additions are bad.
No, and not all of them are good either. This was a terrible one, an indefensible one. Amir0x is spot-on.

He absolutely deserved all of that.
Yeah.... no. No one deserves to be tortured and broken for months and months. Some people might deserve death for their atrocities, but if you think someone deserves Theon's fate, you've probably got some serious issues.

The guilt is not 'hinted at' during the scene, it's explicitly stated. That's not nuance and it's not something the show earned: it's just Catelyn doing something that to the audience is by all intents and purposes completely out-of-character. Catelyn is mad with love for her children, and she has never shown the least shred of concern about Jon over anything.. only absolute scorn, even well into his manhood.

It doesn't even make a shred of sense either, as I said in the other post. There is no new event leading up to this that should even have Jon on her mind, how does she jump to THAT as the first reason to feel guilty? She let out the f00kin' Kingslayer, maybe start with that? Or hell, imprisoning Tyrion? Going further back, there are a host of things she could feel guilty about regarding her own flesh and blood that would make more sense from the perspective a Mother might feel irrationally in moments of weakness. But to hate Jon all her life, show no sign of any regret at any moment on the show or in the book, and then to immediately jump to this point?

Yup. It's just more of their stupid fanfiction. The writers hate Catelyn, that much is obvious. They've already ruined her character and dumbed her down, so now they gotta make her an insufferable self-pitying idiot so that we can hate her even more. Sigh. Which makes me wonder, [ASoS]
do they like, want people to cheer when RW happens? Cause I know I will. I'll still mourn Catelyn somewhat, but TV-Robb and Talissa are so insufferable I'll be glad they're gone. Good job, D&D...
 

exYle

Member
He also SAVED bran and rickon, because his men wanted the deaths of them to send a message, and he didn't want to look weak in front of his men (who only follow strength) so he got decoys.

So what do you think would've happened if he found Bran and Rickon, then?
 

Massa

Member
Can't complain when you don't know what you're missing. Ignorance is bliss.

Not always. For example, people ignorant of the basic differences between the TV and book medias and what it takes to produce a TV show are often the loudest complainers. No bliss for them unfortunately.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom