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[exYle]

Ugh-ogh, better spoiler that, this is basically a MASSIVE spoiler

I did it, to respect the rules of the thread, but I think I kept it pretty light on spoilers. If certain characters get better written as the story goes along, does that count as a spoiler?

Well, I guess knowing which characters survive is a spoiler...

 

[PhoenixDark]

Ultimately GRRM trusts D&D, for good and bad. I wouldn't worry about them doing anything drastic, like say having Ned Stark survive his beheading. They're making changes, and yes there already are some big butterfly effect consequences coming, but overall they haven't gone crazy with drastic changes. They seem to prefer tinkering around the edges with unnecessary, un-compelling changes that waste time - which while disappointing is still preferable over utterly disregarding the source material like the later Narnia films or the Lost In Space movie.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Ultimately GRRM trusts D&D, for good and bad. I wouldn't worry about them doing anything drastic, like say having Ned Stark survive his beheading. They're making changes, and yes there already are some big butterfly effect consequences coming, but overall they haven't gone crazy with drastic changes. They seem to prefer tinkering around the edges with unnecessary, un-compelling changes that waste time - which while disappointing is still preferable over utterly disregarding the source material like the later Narnia films or the Lost In Space movie.

Believe it or not... I do completely agree with this.

Doesn't stop me from getting annoyed. It's only because I love the books so much. The series is good inspite of D&D's blunders, but it could have been GOODER, see?

 

[narcosis219]

Well, I guess knowing which characters survive is a spoiler...

Yes, it is. One of my friends casually talked about how old Bran looks in S3. When I rewatched S2 with my gf the other day (her first time watching), she was not shocked that Theon reveals two burnt boys after the hunt because she knew Bran is in S3. Simple stuff like that can be spoilers yo. Here I was waiting for her to scream out in shock like she did when Ned got beheaded.

 

[Pkaz01]

Ultimately GRRM trusts D&D, for good and bad. I wouldn't worry about them doing anything drastic, like say having Ned Stark survive his beheading. They're making changes, and yes there already are some big butterfly effect consequences coming, but overall they haven't gone crazy with drastic changes. They seem to prefer tinkering around the edges with unnecessary, un-compelling changes that waste time - which while disappointing is still preferable over utterly disregarding the source material like the later Narnia films or the Lost In Space movie.

Very good point and I do agree, at the end of the day when it is all said and done their show is going to be the suffering for the unnecessary changes and I'm fine with that as long as it has no effects on the original story.


Thats why I party wish George had already finished the books before this show started.

 

[exYle]

Yes, it is. One of my friends casually talked about how old Bran looks in S3. When I rewatched S2 with my gf the other day (her first time watching), she was not shocked that Theon reveals two burnt boys after the hunt because she knew Bran is in S3. Simple stuff like that can be spoilers yo. Here I was waiting for her to scream out in shock like she did when Ned got beheaded.

Yeah, GRRM loves his bait and switches. I'll be more careful in the future.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Believe it or not... I do completely agree with this.

Doesn't stop me from getting annoyed. It's only because I love the books so much. The series is good inspite of D&D's blunders, but it could have been GOODER, see?

Agreed. I thought the show could be one of the best things on television if done right. At its best (Baelor, Fire & Blood, Blackwater) the show is quite amazing, but unfortunately it's unable to sustain consistency and tends to bottom out at being alright or good (or worse in the case of some of the early episodes of S1 and S2). A lot of that has to do with the challenge of turning such huge books into ten hours of television; the first 2-3 episodes of nearly every season will always be dedicated to setting the table/introducing new characters/etc, whereas other shows tend to jump out the gate running because they aren't burdened by the perils of adaptions. A 12-13 episode season would make things a lot easier, although it might also open the door to more new stuff that doesn't work.

It's only going to get harder to adapt, and I wonder how long audiences will be patient.

 

[Pkaz01]

It's only going to get harder to adapt, and I wonder how long audiences will be patient.

Thats interesting because from what i've seen a lot of the non bookers readers absolutely love it. Ignorance is bliss and all that.

I don't see patience being an issue, instead (series spoilers)

Spoiler

if they stay true to how things are and don't add any additional scenes people will get mad that they hardly see Bran, Sansa, and Arya and are instead stuck watching people like Quentyn and Victarion and Arianne, there are amazing scenes in books 4 or 5 but the writers really need to cut the fat and replace it with more interesting scenes from already established characters

They have shown potential to write some really good scenes when the don't stray too far from the material though so they just need to get their priorities in check and not sacrifice the heart and storys of main characters for sex scenes and making higher paid actors earn their checks.

 

[Rentahamster]

Believe it or not... I do completely agree with this.

Doesn't stop me from getting annoyed. It's only because I love the books so much. The series is good inspite of D&D's blunders, but it could have been GOODER, see?

Emphasis on "could have been", since it's not guaranteed. The image we all have in our heads of the ideal TV adaption is of course going to be perfect, but in an alternate universe where the producers take a different approach than what we've seen so far (an approach that is more strictly in step with the books, for example), it isn't a forgone conclusion that it would be automatically a better TV experience than what we've gotten so far.

In some cases of media, like the Star Wars prequels, or Prometheus, it is pretty certain that the final product could have been much more "gooder" than what we got in the end, but in the case of this show, I'm not so sure if a stricter adherence to the books would have necessarily made a better TV show. Producing an adaptation like this in the real world is quite difficult, and many of our critiques are done with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[CassSept]

I don't see patience being an issue, instead (series spoilers)

Spoiler

if they stay true to how things are and don't add any additional scenes people will get mad that they hardly see Bran, Sansa, and Arya and are instead stuck watching people like Quentyn and Victarion and Arianne, there are amazing scenes in books 4 or 5 but the writers really need to cut the fat and replace it with more interesting scenes from already established characters

[ADWD]

Spoiler

I guess Quentyn's plotline will be cut altogether. After Barristan's introduction as a POV character he is basically useless. He can just appear in Meereen and nothing of note will be lost.

Plus, this would ruin the amazing reveal of Doran Martell's plan in AFFC.

If I were to run it, I'd skip Quentyn's journey, go on with Dorne's plot and once Doran unveils his plan cut to Quentyn approaching Meereen

 

[norinrad]

God i loved this show so much i get the feeling they might just "Hero" it along the way.

 

[Azrael]

And GRRM also didn't write Stannis to be charging at the frontline, this was added by the director.

So... even in episodes written by GRRM, he doesn't have full control. Anyone still wanna argue he's like JK Rowling now?

Yeah, I remember reading that the original script included scenes of the battle from the perspective of Stannis' tent. I think they must have wanted to contrast Stannis and Joffrey putting Stannis in the thick of battle, or maybe Stephen Dillane wanted a fight scene, but I don't like how the change was implemented. I wouldn't have minded Stannis doing a little fighting, but it was out of character, and incredibly stupid, for him to storm the ramparts ahead of his own men like that.

 

[TCRS]

Arrested Westeros time!

 

[Massa]

And GRRM also didn't write Stannis to be charging at the frontline, this was added by the director.

Thank you director.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Who is supposed to be the best character with a sword in the show? My friend is convinced that Jaime would have lost against Ned and Brienne, but I'm not.

 

[Kilrogg]

Who is supposed to be the best character with a sword in the show? My friend is convinced that Jaime would have lost against Ned and Brienne, but I'm not.

It's hard to say, but definitely not Ned. Jaime, followed by Barristan/Brienne I guess?

 

[ThisWreckage]

But it's interesting talking to him about this show because his bias shines through. He hates the Lannisters so even though Jaime was shackled and was held captive for a while he still wouldn't acknowledge he was handicapped.

 

[Moff]

I think the mountain would be the best fighter, followed by jaime, loras and

Spoiler

the viper

 

[Eidan]

It's hard to say, but definitely not Ned. Jaime, followed by Barristan/Brienne I guess?

From my understanding, Barristan is still considered the greatest swordsman in the Seven Kingdoms. After that, it's probably Jaime> Brienne = the Hound > Loras. The Mountain's prowess comes not in his ability to wield a sword per se, but in his freakish size and strength.

 

[Trojita]

Who is supposed to be the best character with a sword in the show? My friend is convinced that Jaime would have lost against Ned and Brienne, but I'm not.

Are you both show watchers? Ned is an unremarkable swordsman in the book. He wouldn't even make it in the top 10, hell not even the top 20. Same with Brienne.

 

[Gvaz]

Jesus christ the lady who plays sansa is tall.

Also Jaime is a really good swordsman, and as much as I like Brienne, if it wasn't for the fact he was bound and tired he would have owned her, as she only has height and strength.

However no one in the book is as good as Barristan Selmy at the time the show takes place. Maybe the

Spoiler

Red Viper

.

Loras isn't a super good swordsman. He did kill like five nearby guards in rage tho when Renly died.

 

[Eidan]

Are you both show watchers? Ned is an unremarkable swordsman in the book. He wouldn't even make it in the top 10, hell not even the top 20. Same with Brienne.

Brienne bests Loras Tyrell in a melee, and he's supposed to be one of the most skilled knights in Westeros.

 

[Joni]

It's hard to say, but definitely not Ned. Jaime, followed by Barristan/Brienne I guess?

The Halfhand, Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, Darkstar, Garlan Tyrell should all be quite awesome with a sword.

 

[Trojita]

Brienne bests Loras Tyrell in a melee, and he's supposed to be one of the most skilled knights in Westeros.

She fought with a Morningstar. He said best character with a sword. Though technically he also did say show >_>

 

[3rdman]

It's hard to say, but definitely not Ned. Jaime, followed by Barristan/Brienne I guess?

Jaime is the better swordsman (in the books at least)...Brienne won only because Jaime spent a year sitting in prison and was out of shape as a result.

 

[Trojita]

Jaime is the better swordsman (in the books at least)...Brienne won only because Jaime spent a year sitting in prison and was out of shape as a result.

He was emaciated, had major muscle loss, and was in a room of darkness for a long time. Plus wasn't he still chained during their fight?

Brienne doesn't come anywhere close.

 

[Ark]

I was always under the impression Ned was a great swordsman? Something something Tower of Joy. Maybe that's just my Ned bias coming through, who knows.

The Halfhand, Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, Darkstar, Garlan Tyrell should all be quite awesome with a sword.

Also Loras.

 

[Kilrogg]

Btw I didn't include people who don't (mainly) fight with a sword. Considering I'm up to the second half of AFFC, that means I'm not including Bronn and [AFFC]

Spoiler

the Viper

. As for the Mountain, I don't know, he's probably not the best technically. He just happens to be much stronger than everyone else that. [AFFC]

Spoiler

Didn't keep the Viper from beating him though

.

 

[Eidan]

He was emaciated, had major muscle loss, and was in a room of darkness for a long time. Plus wasn't he still chained during their fight?

Brienne doesn't come anywhere close.

You seem kind of down on Brienne. I've seen no evidence that would suggest that Brienne is not one of the better swordsmen in the series.

 

[Van Owen]

I think the mountain would be the best fighter, followed by jaime, loras and

Spoiler

the viper

Spoiler

he got his ass kicked and only one because the viper got cocky while exacting revenge.

 

[Ark]

You seem kind of down on Brienne. I've seen no evidence that would suggest that Brienne is not one of the better swordsmen in the series.

She's good for sure, but the only person of value she ever fights is Loras Tyrell during Renley's tourney.

 

[negreenfield]

You have to remember Brienne has to try not to hurt/kill Jamie during the fight, definitely makes things harder.

 

[Gvaz]

As for the Mountain, I don't know, he's probably not the best technically. He just happens to be much stronger than everyone else that. [AFFC]

Spoiler

Didn't keep the Viper from beating him though

.

ADWD

Spoiler

Beating him? I'm not so sure....

 

[Trojita]

You seem kind of down on Brienne. I've seen no evidence that would suggest that Brienne is not one of the better swordsmen in the series.

Given what?

 

[Scuderia]

Finally finished the book last night, (blood and gold). Why are people saying S3 is going to be the best, when there's clearly much, much more action in what will be S4?

 

[Eidan]

Given what?

Bests Loras. Bests an admittedly weakened Jaime easily. ASOS

Spoiler

And fights a bare to a stand still with a blunted sword. If Jaime hadn't had intruded, I'm sure she would've won that fight.

You're right, that in the melee Brienne was using a morningstar. I guess I just naturally assumed she was as talented with a sword as she was with that.

 

[The Lamonster]

Finally finished the book last night, (blood and gold). Why are people saying S3 is going to be the best, when there's clearly much, much more action in what will be S4?

I think they mean "book 3 adapted to television"

 

[RaidenZR]

He was emaciated, had major muscle loss, and was in a room of darkness for a long time. Plus wasn't he still chained during their fight?

Brienne doesn't come anywhere close.

The most important aspect of the fight isn't who won or lost but the fact that Jaime's inner thoughts revealed HE was impressed. At her skill, speed, stamina, and moves. That's all you need to know, really. He gives concessions to his own condition but he still started to come around on his opinions of her after the battle.

 

[Scuderia]

I think they mean "book 3 adapted to television"

Ah that's fair enough, in that case then hellz yeah. It's all going to be awesome.

 

[Eidan]

Finally finished the book last night, (blood and gold). Why are people saying S3 is going to be the best, when there's clearly much, much more action in what will be S4?

ASOS

Spoiler

The way you hear some people talk about ASOS (and sometimes the entire series), you'd think the Red Wedding was the only interesting thing about it. I've said it earlier, but Joffrey's wedding and Tyrion's trial is my favorite arc in the series. That's when ASOS really shines.

 

[Trojita]

The most important aspect of the fight isn't who won or lost but the fact that Jaime's inner thoughts revealed HE was impressed. At her skill, speed, stamina, and moves. That's all you need to know, really. He gives concessions to his own condition but he still started to come around on his opinions of her after the battle.

He probably thought she was a two bit swordsman. Doesn't mean she is in the top 5 or 10 swordsmans in Westeros.

 

[Eidan]

He probably thought she was a two bit swordsman. Doesn't mean she is in the top 5 or 10 swordsmans in Westeros.

Who are the ten swordsmen who are better?

 

[Dysun]

ASOS

Spoiler

The way you hear some people talk about ASOS (and sometimes the entire series), you'd think the Red Wedding was the only interesting thing about it. I've said it earlier, but Joffrey's wedding and Tyrion's trial is my favorite arc in the series. That's when ASOS really shines.

Spoiler

Dont forget the Battles at Castle Black or the Wall! Season 4 is going to be fun...

 

[Kilrogg]

ASOS

Spoiler

The way you hear some people talk about ASOS (and sometimes the entire series), you'd think the Red Wedding was the only interesting thing about it. I've said it earlier, but Joffrey's wedding and Tyrion's trial is my favorite arc in the series. That's when ASOS really shines.

Damn right. ASOS

Spoiler

Tyrion's trial is the best, but that part where Jaime frees him and Tyrion lies to him out of spite is hard man. I was like "I know your brother lied to you about Tysha and everything but come on, don't cast doubt on your own innocence you shit of an imp!"... And then, Tywin...

 

[The Lamonster]

Who are the ten swordsmen who are better?

Arthur Dayne, Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, Syrio Forel, Loras Tyrell, Bronn, Sandor Clegane

just off the top of my head

 

[Trojita]

Who are the ten swordsmen who are better?

It's hard to compile a list. If Brienne wasn't interacting with Catelyn and Jaime we wouldn't have even heard of her. The same can be said of a lot of capable swordsman.

Barristan Selmy
Jaime Lannister
Arthur Dayne
Sandor Clegane
Garlan Tyrell
Bronn
Loras Tyrell
Gerold Hightower
Darkstar
Quorin Halfhand
Brandon Stark
Possibly Lyanna Stark
Possibly Benjen

Then you have some people that might be remarkable but used other weapons, like Oberyn or Robert Baratheon. Jorah Mormont is supposed to be pretty good and if we are taking other weapons into account he did win jousting against Sir Jaime Lannister at the Tourney of Lannisport.

 

[Eidan]

Arthur Dayne, Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, Syrio Forel, Loras Tyrell, Bronn, Sandor Clegane

just off the top of my head

Arthur Dayne

Spoiler

Dead before AGOT.

Jaime Lannister

Spoiler

When he had two hands, sure.

Barristan Selmy

Spoiler

Sure.

Syio Forel

Spoiler

Not Westerosi, but that's okay. Besides being dead, what evidence suggests that he is a better swordsman than Brienne?

Loras Tyrell

Spoiler

Eh, if anything I'd say Brienne is likely a better swordsman.

Bronn

Spoiler

Why?

Sandor Clegane

Spoiler

Why?

EDIT: More names, more questions.
Garlan Tyrell

Spoiler

He's described as highly skilled, and would likely be more famous than Loras. I guess I can see this one.

Gerold Hightower

Spoiler

Dead before AGOT.

Darkstar

Spoiler

Why?

Qhorin Halfhand

Spoiler

When he was alive I could possibly see this.

Brandon Stark

Spoiler

What? Why?

Lyanna Stark

Spoiler

What? Why?

Benjen Stark

Spoiler

What? Why?

 

[Kilrogg]

It's hard to compile a list. If Brienne wasn't interacting with Catelyn and Jaime we wouldn't have even heard of her. The same can be said of a lot of capable swordsman.

Barristan Selmy
Jaime Lannister
Arthur Dayne
Sandor Clegane
Garlan Tyrell
Bronn
Loras Tyrell
Gerold Hightower
Darkstar
Quorin Halfhand
Brandon Stark
Possibly Lyanna Stark
Possibly Benjen

Then you have some people that might be remarkable but used other weapons, like Oberyn or Robert Baratheon. Jorah Mormont is supposed to be pretty good and if we are taking other weapons into account he did win jousting against Sir Jaime Lannister at the Tourney of Lannisport.

Why do you guys keep forgetting that Brienne actually beats Loras? Surely you can't include Loras and exclude her.

 

[Trojita]

Why do you guys keep forgetting that Brienne actually beats Loras? Surely you can't include Loras and exclude her.

She used a M-O-R-N-I-N-G S-T-A-R.

 

[Kilrogg]

Morningstar

Did that give her so obvious an advantage over him that we can't assume she would have done as well with a sword? She has to be at least on par with him, no? Does she normally use a sword or a morningstar?