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[Jibbajabbawockky]

ASOS and Season 3

Spoiler

Yeah I think the leeches may be cut, based on the leaked episode synopses, "Melisandre pays a visit to the Riverlands" in episode 6, "Melisandre reveals a secret to Gendry" in episode 7, and "Davos demands proof from Melisandre" in episode 8. I think it's safe to assume that places Melisandre back at Dragonstone in episode 8, which seems too late to do the leeches scene.

[ASoS spoilers]

Spoiler

I do wonder if they did the leeches scene, if that wouldn't feel too much of another bit of Melisandre interfering magically with the Red Wedding? Especially if they held off on it until episode 7 or 8, with the RW being episode 9.

I never really thought much of the leeches scene in the books, but I think thats more how the scene was positioned relative to learning of Balon dying and then the Red and Purple weddings.

 

[Eidan]

Clarifying army size is something I don't think is a bad thing to mention to the NO BOOK thread. It's not a spoiler, it's something that the show hasn't done a good job clarifying, and will let them know why Dany doesn't just head off to Kings Landing. It's a detail the show has missed, it doesn't give anything away, it doesn't ruin anything.

It could be something mentioned in a future episode. I think you guys should really start practicing a bit more restraint.

 

[Chris R]

It could be something mentioned in a future episode. I think you guys should really start practicing a bit more restraint.

Exactly why I didn't post it in the thread to begin with. They haven't explicitly said on the show yet that most of the Westerosi armies are made up of worthless fodder :|

 

[DrForester]

It could be something mentioned in a future episode. I think you guys should really start practicing a bit more restraint.

Outside recommending the audiobooks to someone, I've not posted in that thread.

I just think it's one of those informational things that can be mentioned without worry.

 

[VanMastaIteHab]

[ASOS]

Spoiler

Someone remind me what the leeches scene is? I read this book a while ago and can't remember anything about that at all.

 

[Ziek]

Can someone explain something from the most recent episode?

Spoiler

Who was the guy that freed Theon? Why did he bring Theon back? Why did he kill his own men?

 

[Chris R]

[ASOS]

Spoiler

Someone remind me what the leeches scene is? I read this book a while ago and can't remember anything about that at all.

[ASOS]

Spoiler

Stannis burns three leeches asking for three men to be killed with the priestess after they have had sucked on kings blood

Can someone explain something from the most recent episode?

Spoiler

Who was the guy that freed Theon? Why did he bring Theon back? Why did he kill his own men?

[ADWD]

Spoiler

That was reek/Ramsay Snow/Bolton, it is known

 

[Brashnir]

Can someone explain something from the most recent episode?

Spoiler

Who was the guy that freed Theon? Why did he bring Theon back? Why did he kill his own men?

ADWD

Spoiler

Ramsay Snow/Bolton. He's a sick asshole and he's fucking with Theon to break him. Plus he enjoys fucking with people.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

If they really want to know they can PM one of the members listed in the op

whoa little late there...guess I'll mention (asos)

Spoiler

They haven't brought up Dalla or her son so far. Considering the son plays a pretty important role in the later books, I wonder if the show is gonna go a different route or eventually introduce that story line

 

[Ziek]

[ADWD]

Spoiler

That was reek/Ramsay Snow/Bolton, it is known

ADWD

Spoiler

Ramsay Snow/Bolton. He's a sick asshole and he's fucking with Theon to break him. Plus he enjoys fucking with people.

Thanks.

Spoiler

In the dark he looked so much like Tyrion's squire. I was incredibly confused.

 

[VanMastaIteHab]

[ASOS]

Spoiler

Stannis burns three leeches asking for three men to be killed with the priestess after they have had sucked on kings blood

Spoiler

Wow, don't remember that at all haha. Did we actually see the scene? Was Davos present or did we just hear about it later?

 

[DrForester]

Back to character ages. Pod's scene after coming back to Bron and Tyrion would have been 1000x funnier (even if 1,000,000x creepier) if he had been the book age.

 

[desh]

If they really want to know they can PM one of the members listed in the op

whoa little late there...guess I'll mention (asos)

Spoiler

They haven't brought up Dalla or her son so far. Considering the son plays a pretty important role in the later books, I wonder if the show is gonna go a different route or eventually introduce that story line

Spoiler

Who is Dalla?

NM, I looked it up.

Spoiler

Man, I have a hard time remembering a lot of the wildlings.

 

[ZeroRay]

ASOS:

Spoiler

I wonder how they'll time the deaths after the leech scene. Will they have Balon die midseason and lull the viewers into a false sense of security or have him die at the start of episode 9 and give the readers a "holy shit, something isn't right" feeling of dread for the rest of the episode? Either way, I'm especially curious on how they'll handle Gendry, as well knowing whether or not viewers will believe Joffrey is going to die too.

 

[Chris R]

ASOS:

Spoiler

I wonder how they'll time the deaths after the leech scene. Will they have Balon die midseason and lull the viewers into a false sense of security or have him die at the start of episode 9 and give the readers a "holy shit, something isn't right" feeling of dread for the rest of the episode? Either way, I'm especially curious on how they'll handle Gendry.

Best way would be to [ASOS]

Spoiler

Open the episode with Balon, have the leech scene somewhere in the middle and then either follow it right away with his death or have it be the end of the episode

In my opinion at least.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

8000 unsullieds that follow every single command (you could do some pretty neat terror tactics with that sort of army) vs peasants, various trained soldiers, and mounted units

How much greater would Daenery's enemy have to be for her to lose the advantage?
I can't imagine any 8k army winning against her, but perhaps at 15-16k you would see the battle turn in the non-unsullied's favour?

Book nerds, what's the verdict?

 

[Weapxn]

So...this

Spoiler

Theon

nonsense we're seeing so far.. That's

Spoiler

from AFFC right

? I've only read through ASOS, and...yeah. I had totally assumed

Spoiler

he was dead

. Guess I should go read a bit further.

I probably didn't need to tag that, but whatever. I thought I was doing a good thing by reading all of Book 3 before the show started. WRONG.

 

[DrForester]

So...this

Spoiler

Theon

nonsense we're seeing so far.. That's

Spoiler

from AFFC right

? I've only read through ASOS, and...yeah. I had totally assumed

Spoiler

he was dead

. Guess I should go read a bit further.

I probably didn't need to tag that, but whatever.

It's from ADWD, not AFFC, but the events in those two books happen at the same time (for the most part)

 

[devilhawk]

Spoiler

Wow, don't remember that at all haha. Did we actually see the scene? Was Davos present or did we just hear about it later?

ASoS

Spoiler

Davos was there. They can easily swap Gendy and Edric for the King's blood. Stannis waits to sacrifice Edric after the Red Wedding because 2 is not 3 and Joffrey still lives. Davos sneaks Edric out when Joffrey dies so he can not be sacrificed. Davos has been learning to read with the maester and finds the letter from The Wall. He presents it to Stannis. They have clearly cut Davos' other son and Edric, but they can still have the scenes with reading and leeches. Maybe introduce Shireen here too.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Spoiler

Wow, don't remember that at all haha. Did we actually see the scene? Was Davos present or did we just hear about it later?

ASOS

Spoiler

Yes he was, and he was thoroughly shocked/horrified when Stannis finished with "Usurper Robb Stark".

 

[Weapxn]

It's from ADWD, not AFFC, but the events in those two books happen at the same time (for the most part)

Oh. Joy. So I have two to get through.

Well, whatever. I'm already spoiled. No point in putting off the rest of the season so I can get through both of those books. I'll just make sure to read them before Season 4.

 

[VanMastaIteHab]

ASoS

Spoiler

Davos was there. They can easily swap Gendy and Edric for the King's blood. Stannis waits to sacrifice Edric after the Red Wedding because 2 is not 3 and Joffrey still lives. Davos sneaks Edric out when Joffrey dies so he can not be sacrificed. Davos has been learning to read with the maester and finds the letter from The Wall. He presents it to Stannis. They have clearly cut Davos' other son and Edric, but they can still have the scenes with reading and leeches. Maybe introduce Shireen here too.

Ok, I remember most of this now haha. Thanks for the refresher.

 

[Iksenpets]

ASOS and Season 3

Spoiler

Yeah I think the leeches may be cut, based on the leaked episode synopses, "Melisandre pays a visit to the Riverlands" in episode 6, "Melisandre reveals a secret to Gendry" in episode 7, and "Davos demands proof from Melisandre" in episode 8. I think it's safe to assume that places Melisandre back at Dragonstone in episode 8, which seems too late to do the leeches scene.

ASOS

Spoiler

That schedule sounds pretty perfect for the leeches to me. First scene of episode 8, Melisandre returns to Dragonstone with Gendry and reveals the plan to sacrifice him. Davos, back in Stannis' good graces now after whatever conversation they're going to have in episode 5, refuses to go along with the plan, and demands proof that king's blood has the power she says it does. Mel offers the leeching as proof. Then we go about the rest of the episode until the last scene where we either return to Pyke and see Balon die, or we go to Yara and have her get word of his death. Then we get RW in episode 9, and Stannis' reaction and two is not three and all of that in episode ten.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Just read the interview with Bryan!

I...I don't have a problem with Robb's marriage to Talisa anymore after him clarifying and explaining the intent. Fantastic interview.

Too bad none of that was reflected in the material that appeared on screen. I maintain they botched it.

 

[DrForester]

Just read the interview with Bryan!

I...I don't have a problem with Robb's marriage to Talisa anymore after him clarifying and explaining the intent. Fantastic interview.

link?

 

[Cornballer]

link?

Here you go

 

[Morrigan Stark]

ASOS

Spoiler

Yes he was, and he was thoroughly shocked/horrified when Stannis finished with "Usurper Robb Stark".

[ASoS]

Spoiler

You're implying he was horrified particularly by the Robb Stark thing, but it's not really the case, though he's certainly unsettled by the whole leech burning in general. Here's the scene:

Stannis ground his teeth. “I’ll hear no more of this. The dragons are done. The Targaryens tried to bring them back half a dozen times. And made fools of themselves, or corpses. Patchface is the only fool we need on this godsforsaken rock. You have the leeches. Do your work.”
Melisandre bowed her head stiffly, and said, “As my king commands.” Reaching up her left sleeve with her right hand, she flung a handful of powder into the brazier. The coals roared. As pale flames writhed atop them, the red woman retrieved the silver dish and brought it to the king. Davos watched her lift the lid. Beneath were three large black leeches, fat with blood.
The boy’s blood, Davos knew. A king’s blood.
Stannis stretched forth a hand, and his fingers closed around one of the leeches.
“Say the name,” Melisandre commanded.
The leech was twisting in the king’s grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. “The usurper,” he said. “Joffrey Baratheon.” When he tossed the leech into the fire, it curled up like an autumn leaf amidst the coals, and burned.
Stannis grasped the second. “The usurper,” he declared, louder this time. “Balon Greyjoy.” He flipped it lightly onto the brazier, and its flesh split and cracked. The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking.
The last was in the king’s hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. “The usurper,” he said at last. “Robb Stark.” And he threw it on the flames.


The chapter ends there.

Edit: dammit, can't spoiler-tag something in quotes?

Too bad none of that was reflected in the material that appeared on screen. I maintain they botched it.

Agreed. His justifications are pathetic, to be honest. He even admits they were not necessary and they only went through with these because "why not lol".

 

[Steelyuhas]

ASOS

Spoiler

That schedule sounds pretty perfect for the leeches to me. First scene of episode 8, Melisandre returns to Dragonstone with Gendry and reveals the plan to sacrifice him. Davos, back in Stannis' good graces now after whatever conversation they're going to have in episode 5, refuses to go along with the plan, and demands proof that king's blood has the power she says it does. Mel offers the leeching as proof. Then we go about the rest of the episode until the last scene where we either return to Pyke and see Balon die, or we go to Yara and have her get word of his death. Then we get RW in episode 9, and Stannis' reaction and two is not three and all of that in episode ten.

ASOS

Spoiler

Yeah I guess that works, but I feel like if it's that close to those events, you'll feel like she has a hand in those events.

[ASoS]

Spoiler

You're implying he was horrified particularly by the Robb Stark thing, but it's not really the case, though he's certainly unsettled by the whole leech burning in general. Here's the scene:

Stannis ground his teeth. “I’ll hear no more of this. The dragons are done. The Targaryens tried to bring them back half a dozen times. And made fools of themselves, or corpses. Patchface is the only fool we need on this godsforsaken rock. You have the leeches. Do your work.”
Melisandre bowed her head stiffly, and said, “As my king commands.” Reaching up her left sleeve with her right hand, she flung a handful of powder into the brazier. The coals roared. As pale flames writhed atop them, the red woman retrieved the silver dish and brought it to the king. Davos watched her lift the lid. Beneath were three large black leeches, fat with blood.
The boy’s blood, Davos knew. A king’s blood.
Stannis stretched forth a hand, and his fingers closed around one of the leeches.
“Say the name,” Melisandre commanded.
The leech was twisting in the king’s grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. “The usurper,” he said. “Joffrey Baratheon.” When he tossed the leech into the fire, it curled up like an autumn leaf amidst the coals, and burned.
Stannis grasped the second. “The usurper,” he declared, louder this time. “Balon Greyjoy.” He flipped it lightly onto the brazier, and its flesh split and cracked. The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking.
The last was in the king’s hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. “The usurper,” he said at last. “Robb Stark.” And he threw it on the flames.


The chapter ends there.

Edit: dammit, can't spoiler-tag something in quotes?

Hmm, I stand corrected, that's how I remembered it I guess.

You can tag something in quotes.

Spoiler

There be spoilers in this quote

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Ok thanks. I wanted to post the spoiler tag, then post a quote inside it, but that didn't work.

Where's that Firefox mod that adds the spoiler button to the editor? I found that useful but for some reason it disappeared...

 

[Iksenpets]

ASOS

Spoiler

Yeah I guess that works, but I feel like if it's that close to those events, you'll feel like she has a hand in those events.

ASOS

Spoiler

Yeah, the show will need to do more to make it clear that she's merely seeing that all these guys are going to die anyway, and then just putting on a bit of a show for Stannis to convince him that the king's blood is what's doing it. Don't know how they'd pull that off, since even in the book that's not 100% clear.

 

[Trasher]

Here you go

That was great. Thanks for the link.

 

[Pkaz01]

Has Marg been in every episode? Its getting redundant. Not that I don't like her or the actor but cmon its the same shit with joffrey over and over

 

[Steelyuhas]

Has Marg been in every episode? Its getting redundant. Not that I don't like her or the actor but cmon its the same shit with joffrey over and over

I don't think she was in episode 3.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Too bad none of that was reflected in the material that appeared on screen. I maintain they botched it.

it's good your always wrong then. it's a relief to see you keep batting a thousand

 

[Pkaz01]

I don't think she was in episode 3.

Ah yea she wasn't, I don't know maybe im just not used to all these scenes she is getting.

 

[Apath]

ASOS

Spoiler

Yeah, the show will need to do more to make it clear that she's merely seeing that all these guys are going to die anyway, and then just putting on a bit of a show for Stannis to convince him that the king's blood is what's doing it. Don't know how they'd pull that off, since even in the book that's not 100% clear.

I never knew that and I've read the books twice.

 

[PhoenixDark]

it's good your always wrong then. it's a relief to see you keep batting a thousand

Uh ok. The arc speaks for itself, unfortunately. I tend not to get upset about changes unless they're poorly thought out or ridiculous, and the "Talisa" stuff fits both categories.

Same with the Halfhand changes. And the Dany changes. S2...bleh

 

[blainethemono]

Speculation Re: Talisa (ASOS)

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure we'll see her die at the RW. It seems like the only way they can really ensure that people who read the books are knocked on their asses along with people who haven't. For those of us who see it coming it wouldn't really have the same amount of impact. We know they're going to die, so for us it's just a matter of watching it play out and hoping they do it justice, and then living vicariously through the reactions of everyone else. But if they really want us to be shocked, they just have to make it even more brutal - Robb's wife gets murdered right in front of him, right before he dies himself

I didn't read the article you guys are talking about though

 

[PhoenixDark]

Speculation Re: Talisa (ASOS)

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure we'll see her die along with Robb and Cat. It seems like the only way they can really ensure that people who read the books are knocked on their asses along with people who haven't. For those of us who see it coming it wouldn't really have the same amount of impact. We know they're going to die, so for us it's just a matter of watching it play out and hoping they do it justice, and then living vicariously through the reactions of everyone else. But if they really want us to be shocked, they just have to make it even more brutal - Robb's wife gets murdered right in front of him, right before he dies himself

I didn't read the article you guys are talking about though

ASOS and season 3 spoiler

Spoiler

It's been confirmed that she dies at the wedding too. I don't see how that's supposed to shock book viewers though; the scene in of itself will be pretty brutal, and given how poorly the show has developed Talisa I couldn't care less. It's gonna be sad and brutal in general. All that change seems to do is confirm that a lot of theories about Jeyne Westerling are wrong.

 

[iamblades]

The Jeyne/Talisa change I don't even really mind

Spoiler

as she isn't really that important at all and the only reason she exists is to be a macguffin to cause Robb to fuck up everything.

The changes I dislike are the way they modified Robb and Catelyns knowledge of the fall of Winterfell and The complete bastardization of Jon and Qhorin's storyline, because they can not be fixed in the future at all. Robb and Catelyn's actions will never have the proper motivation and logic they had in the books, so they just go from tragic to foolish, and Jon will never receive that bit of character development where he becomes a responsible adult, because he spent the whole time being a whiny bitch and fucking around with Ygritte

 

[devilhawk]

ASOS and season 3 spoiler

Spoiler

It's been confirmed that she dies at the wedding too. I don't see how that's supposed to shock book viewers though; the scene in of itself will be pretty brutal, and given how poorly the show has developed Talisa I couldn't care less. It's gonna be sad and brutal in general. All that change seems to do is confirm that a lot of theories about Jeyne Westerling are wrong.

ASoS

Spoiler

What's the source on Talisa's death? That would be disappointing and pointless. There would be no shock value for readers as we would know she would be dying as soon as she appeared on the road to The Twins or at the ceremony.

I wonder if the ASoS

Spoiler

Greywater Watch gang with Robb's heir info will make an appearance?

 

[exYle]

The Jeyne/Talisa change I don't even really mind

Spoiler

as she isn't really that important at all and the only reason she exists is to be a macguffin to cause Robb to fuck up everything.

The changes I dislike are the way they modified Robb and Catelyns knowledge of the fall of Winterfell and The complete bastardization of Jon and Qhorin's storyline, because they can not be fixed in the future at all. Robb and Catelyn's actions will never have the proper motivation and logic they had in the books, so they just go from tragic to foolish, and Jon will never receive that bit of character development where he becomes a responsible adult, because he spent the whole time being a whiny bitch and fucking around with Ygritte

You know, call me crazy, but I could've sworn Littlefinger said something to convince Cat to exchange Jaime for her daughters. Obviously book Cat was motivated by grief, but show Cat was motivated externally by guarantee from her friend that she'd get her daughters back unharmed.

EDIT: Just went back and checked. Littlefinger specifically brokers a deal with Cat to exchange the Kingslayer for Sansa and Arya (who she obviously doesn't know isn't in King's Landing anymore).

 

[Ikael]

8000 unsullieds that follow every single command (you could do some pretty neat terror tactics with that sort of army) vs peasants, various trained soldiers, and mounted units

How much greater would Daenery's enemy have to be for her to lose the advantage?
I can't imagine any 8k army winning against her, but perhaps at 15-16k you would see the battle turn in the non-unsullied's favour?

Book nerds, what's the verdict?

Unsullied are the very top of the cream of the elite troops in perhaps the entire world. There are more background info about these guys that were left out in the show and that makes them look even more baddass than they already are (PS: Guess who were the only ones that ever defeated Dothraki calvary on a full scale battle?). I wholly expect the Martin's story to follow the same pattern that real history did, that is, showing that compact, square light infantry formations armed with lances are far more effctive (and cost-efficient) than knights.

That being said, Dany needs more, much more firepower than this. Westeros is huge (Martin already said that his world is bigger than our Earth, so you can imagine the scale), and so are her enemies: Renly could mobilize up to 100,000 men (latter split between Stannis and the Tyrells), the King in the North 50,000, the Lannisters 80,000. As great as the Unsullied are, Daenerys simply lacks the raw manpower necessary for a complete occupation of Westeros. Unsullied can win battles, yes, but they couldn't put Daenerys on the throne by theirselves, not to mention the not so small dettail of lacking any kind of fleet to mobilize her forces.

 

[Ark]

That's what the dragons are for!

 

[Azih]

Unsullied are the very top of the cream of the elite troops in perhaps the entire world. There are more background info about these guys that were left out in the show and that makes them look even more baddass than they already are (PS: Guess who were the only ones that ever defeated Dothraki calvary on a full scale battle?). I wholly expect the Martin's story to follow the same pattern that real history did, that is, showing that compact, square light infantry formations armed with lances are far more effctive (and cost-efficient) than knights.

That being said, Dany needs more, much more firepower than this. Westeros is huge (Martin already said that his world is bigger than our Earth, so you can imagine the scale), and so are her enemies: Renly could mobilize up to 100,000 men (latter split between Stannis and the Tyrells), the King in the North 50,000, the Lannisters 80,000. As great as the Unsullied are, Daenerys simply lacks the raw manpower necessary for a complete occupation of Westeros. Unsullied can win battles, yes, but they couldn't put Daenerys on the throne by theirselves, not to mention the not so small dettail of lacking any kind of fleet to mobilize her forces.

Yeah, plus Dany needs more mixed troops as well. Archers for one.

 

[PhoenixDark]

8000 unsullieds that follow every single command (you could do some pretty neat terror tactics with that sort of army) vs peasants, various trained soldiers, and mounted units

How much greater would Daenery's enemy have to be for her to lose the advantage?
I can't imagine any 8k army winning against her, but perhaps at 15-16k you would see the battle turn in the non-unsullied's favour?

Book nerds, what's the verdict?

The following is lore so I won't spoiler tag:

Jorah tells Dany the story of how the Unsullied first became renowned. Years ago a khalasar began marching towards an eastern city-state. The city's leaders bought a host of sells words who quickly arrived, and as an afterthought they bought 3,000 Unsullied. It took the Unsullied days to reach the city, and by the time they arrived they found much of it burned; the sell swords had fleed after the khalasar's first bloody charge. Now the khalasar camped outside the city's walls drinking, waiting for the dawn of the next day when they'd charge the gates and storm the city.

The next morning the Unsullied formed a line against the city gates, against 20k khalasar screamers (horseback warriors). They threw back every single charge of the larger host. Finally 600 Unsullied remained while the screamers lost their khal, all his sons, and 7,000 men. The remaining khal leaders cut their braids and presented them to the Unsullied.

The Unsullied are like a fictional eqialivent of a Roman legion.

 

[Hystzen]

The following is lore so I won't spoiler tag:

Jorah tells Dany the story of how the Unsullied first became renowned. Years ago a khalasar of began marching towards an eastern city-state. The city's leaders bought a host of sells words who quickly arrived, and as an afterthought they bought 3,000 Unsullied. It took the Unsullied days to reach the city, and by the time they arrived they found much of it burned; the sell swords had fleed after the khalasar's first bloody charge. Now the khalasar camped outside the city's walls drinking, waiting for the dawn of the next day when they'd charge the gates and storm the city.

The next morning the Unsullied formed a line against the city gates, against 20k khalasar screamers (horseback warriors). They threw back every single charge of the larger host. Finally 600 Unsullied remained while the screamers lost their khal, all his sons, and 7,000 men. The remaining khal leaders cut their braids and presented them to the Unsullied.

The Unsullied are like a fictional eqialivent of a Roman legion.

More Phalanx Greek/Spartan Troops then Roman Legion

 

[PhoenixDark]

More Phalanx Greek/Spartan Troops then Roman Legion

Ahh you're right. They tend to use spears exclusively and a more defensive posture (phalanx)

 

[Hystzen]

I would say it also obvious (ADWD)

Spoiler

that Dany crash landing near the Dothraki is her getting a major calvary unit to smash Westros footsoliders

I suspect archers come from sellswords and what ever lords join her when she lands in Westros

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I would say it also obvious (ADWD)

Spoiler

that Dany crash landing near the Dothraki is her getting a major calvary unit to smash Westros footsoliders

I suspect archers come from sellswords and what ever lords join her when she lands in Westros

Spoiler

Is it mentioned how large that Dothraki horde is?