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[jhmtehgamr20xx]

It's an interesting article but clearly very America-centric. Not saying that that's a bad thing, just that there's such much perspective their that myself, as a British born-and-bred black guy of African ethnicity, generally fails to relate to...

This is something that should be stressed more. The weird thought that the "depressing life" narrative is shared completely evenly and steadily through an entire ethnic group is almost as disgusting as being the jerk who exhibits discrimination on members of other ethnic groups. The reasons should be obvious; you are still talking about millions of people in a given group and should know by now that statistically speaking, the large the pool grows the more likely the margins of variance will grow along with it, up to a certain threshold, wherein things peter out.

The problem in America regarding this and regarding ethnic minorities is that only one slice of the variance is focused on, usually the more denigrating one. While this may usually be done in an effort to bring light to the plights of a given group that occurs frequently enough to be deemed a somewhat large-scale problem, it oftentimes also ends up becoming the dominating narrative.

This ends up being an unfair representation for members of that group who only share the most superficial (i.e aesthetic) traits with those who live and breathe those problems, while ignoring or marginalizing how they deviate from that variance. At worst, it paints them to feel more like exceptions than the rule, when usually the "exceptions" at least equal the number of those who fit the "rule", if not actually exceed them because usually the "rule" in these cases is very linear and filled with inaccuracies.

Not to mention, it also just encourages the unfair "US=World" mentality that's already an issue in other facets of discussion on culture, society, economics etc.

 

[staticneuron]

This is something that should be stressed more. The weird thought that the "depressing life" narrative is shared completely evenly and steadily through an entire ethnic group is almost as disgusting as being the jerk who exhibits discrimination on members of other ethnic groups. The reasons should be obvious; you are still talking about millions of people in a given group and should know by now that statistically speaking, the large the pool grows the more likely the margins of variance will grow along with it, up to a certain threshold, wherein things peter out.

The problem in America regarding this and regarding ethnic minorities is that only one slice of the variance is focused on, usually the more denigrating one. While this may usually be done in an effort to bring light to the plights of a given group that occurs frequently enough to be deemed a somewhat large-scale problem, it oftentimes also ends up becoming the dominating narrative.

This ends up being an unfair representation for members of that group who only share the most superficial (i.e aesthetic) traits with those who live and breathe those problems, while ignoring or marginalizing how they deviate from that variance. At worst, it paints them to feel more like exceptions than the rule, when usually the "exceptions" at least equal the number of those who fit the "rule", if not actually exceed them because usually the "rule" in these cases is very linear and filled with inaccuracies.

Not to mention, it also just encourages the unfair "US=World" mentality that's already an issue in other facets of discussion on culture, society, economics etc.

I have no idea where you are going with this. It is almost as if you have not read this thread or the numbers provided in the article.

Let me get one thing out of the way first. Joystiq did not claim this was a worldwide problem. Joystiq is an American website with Jurnos that are from America. Some of the stats in the article are presented from American sources (hence the term "for America") Race is a social construct and not all cultures refer to the darker skinned people in their society as black. It is not that the "US = the world" imo, I find out that it ends up being the case that alot of people who are the internet aren't aware of where the webpage they are visiting originates and the point of view they may be presenting is from a specific country. Thankfully sites that are in a different language entirely, don't suffer from this but complaining that Joystiq has an american point of view on the situation is just as bad as pointing out a european point of view in eurogamer.

So because of this distinction it should go without saying that this doesn't represent the experience blacks go through in other countries because the underlying structure that leads to this behavior may be entirely different depending on their societies views on race, classification and stereotypes.

It is understandable to state that you may want to hear a breakdown of this experience in other societies. It isn't understandable to present the expectation that this article was doing that or should do that because that expectation is pretty unreasonable.

 

[Shredderi]

Wait, so if a person of color doesn't speak in a certain way or adhere to other stereotypes they get "not black enough" comments? By other persons of colour? This actually happens, huh. Really bizarre. Pretty much everything else in this thread doesn't come as a suprise to me, unfortunately but this was new to me. It's all so fucking stupid and pointless.

 

[Skilletor]

Wait, so if a person of color doesn't speak in a certain way or adhere to other stereotypes they get "not black enough" comments? By other persons of colour? This actually happens, huh. Really bizarre. Pretty much everything else in this thread doesn't come as a suprise to me, unfortunately but this was new to me.

Yeah, happens to me all the time. I also tend to wear sweater vests, polos, cardigans, and am told that I dress white.

 

[Cipherr]

Wait, so if a person of color doesn't speak in a certain way or adhere to other stereotypes they get "not black enough" comments? By other persons of colour? This actually happens, huh. Really bizarre. Pretty much everything else in this thread doesn't come as a suprise to me, unfortunately but this was new to me. It's all so fucking stupid and pointless.

Yup. And its embarassing to be on the receiving end, not because being educated or interested in certain things is bad, but because when a friend says something like "You are whitest black guy I know" they seemingly don't realize what they are sort of saying/implying about themselves and/or our culture.

Talk about insulting yourself. Its ridiculous.

 

[block tower]

yea party chat is a godsend, ive been using it exclusively since it was introduced. even if the racial slurs aren't directed at me, i have no desire to hear "nigger'" over and over in matchmaking.

 

[silvermember]

Wait, so if a person of color doesn't speak in a certain way or adhere to other stereotypes they get "not black enough" comments? By other persons of colour? This actually happens, huh. Really bizarre. Pretty much everything else in this thread doesn't come as a suprise to me, unfortunately but this was new to me. It's all so fucking stupid and pointless.

This is not an exclusively colour thing. It happens with every race. An easy example would be the concept of whitetrash and southern accent depending on where you live. That was actually a time where being Irish and Italian wasn't considered white. Even white Hispanics are not considered white until the narrative is convenient. Most common is Arabs


The point being this is more of a expectation of sameness within a group/race, than about racism.
This can be attributed to the fact that for most of African American history their culture did not assimilate with the other culture due to very oblivious reasons.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

I have no idea where you are going with this. It is almost as if you have not read this thread or the numbers provided in the article.

Let me get one thing out of the way first. Joystiq did not claim this was a worldwide problem, Joystiq is an American website with Jurnos that are from America. Some of the stats in the article are presented from American sources (hence the term "for America") Race is a social construct and not all cultures refer to the darker skinned people in their society as black. It is not that the "US = the world" imo, I find out that it ends up being the case that alot of people who are the internet aren't aware of where the webpage they are visiting originates and the point of view they may be presenting is from a specific country. Thankfully sites that are in a different language entirely, don't suffer from this but complaining that Joystiq has an american point of view on the situation is just as bad as pointing out a european point of view in eurogamer.

So because of this distinction it should go without saying that this doesn't represent the experience blacks go through in other countries because the underlying structure that leads to this behavior may be entirely different depending on their societies views on race, classification and stereotypes.

What are you talking about?

First, don't insult my level of reading comprehension skills in insinuating I barely read the article or posts in the thread. I posted in this thread some days ago, and I read the snippets in OP. That should be enough; this isn't new territory, most of what they have to say, has already been said (and better) from other sources.

It's evident you aren't able to discern when a person is speaking from the perspective of other people, rather than directly speaking of their own particular POV. Most of what I said was in relation to the assumptions and beliefs other people tend to have on these manners, not my own. Altho, I do personally feel that some of it is true, and it should be easy to figure out which that is.

In other words, when I say "reinforce perceptions that US = World", I'm speaking about how other people, typically other Americans, will look at it as. I know exactly what you're talking about in regards to the whole Joystick thing, but I'm telling you that the way they frame it, focuses on it from a pretty American point of view, and "black" in America has a different definition than in other countries.

But the dominant number of people reading it will be English-speaking, and the way the article is framed, likely American. The article's use of black is clearly in terms of the American definition of people of African ethnic heritage; I'm obviously not saying dark-skinned people of other ethnic heritages don't experience this sort of thing, but the article itself isn't referring to it from that frame of mind. So the readers, mostly English-speaking, mostly American....they're going to see it from an American POV. That isn't right, but that is how most people think.

All of this is for naught, though, because in the end you practically say exactly the same thing I'm saying; however I'm willing to take it a step further and say that this isn't even something black (btw, I can clearly understand that the term "black" means different things in other countries, but this article is obviously referring to the definition of it as people of African ethnic heritage, not the broader context of those of other ethnic heritages being dark-skinned, so I don't know why you bought that up) people face absolutely in the U.S (or that it's a problem that only afflicts black minorities in America, but the article doesn't really go into that so neither do we need to in this case); it is a problem, and large enough of one to merit discussion, but let's not go into saying you could round up 100 black people and get 95 of them to attest to this being a regular occurrence to the most extreme examples posted in this thread.

And me mentioning that isn't to belittle those extreme instances either; they're despicable and the people who do that sort of thing are miserable imps with cold sickly hearts. But those are the extremes; the extremes of anything are usually not the majority, that's just common sense.

Honestly I don't know how you interpreted what I said in any other way than what it is, or saw it as dismissive of the point of the thread. I'm just adding clarity here, that it isn't a "doom and gloom" virtual dystopia situation for many black gamers both in NA and globally. But part of the reason it may seem that way is due to the influx of articles that focus on exactly that, and never the counterbalance.

Unfortunately it seems I've probably said too much as it is, so I'm bailing out. Don't want unnecessary confrontations or bans from this. And I've pretty much said all I have to say anyhow :/

 

[Shredderi]

Yeah, happens to me all the time. I also tend to wear sweater vests, polos, cardigans, and am told that I dress white.

What in the name of fuck... Sweater vests are awesome.

Yup. And its embarassing to be on the receiving end, not because being educated or interested in certain things is bad, but because when a friend says something like "You are whitest black guy I know" they seemingly don't realize what they are sort of saying/implying about themselves and/or our culture.

Talk about insulting yourself. Its ridiculous.

I can only imagine :/

This is not an exclusively colour thing. It happens with every race. An easy example would be the concept of whitetrash and southern accent depending on where you live. That was actually a time where being Irish and Italian wasn't considered white. Even white Hispanics are not considered white until the narrative is convenient. Most common is Arabs


The point being this is more of a expectation of sameness within a group/race, than about racism.
This can be attributed to the fact that for most of African American history their culture did not assimilate with the other culture due to very oblivious reasons.

Good point.

 

[silvermember]

What are you talking about?

First, don't insult my level of reading comprehension skills in insinuating I barely read the article or posts in the thread. I posted in this thread some days ago, and I read the snippets in OP. That should be enough; this isn't new territory, most of what they have to say, has already been said (and better) from other sources.

It's evident you aren't able to discern when a person is speaking from the perspective of other people, rather than directly speaking of their own particular POV. Most of what I said was in relation to the assumptions and beliefs other people tend to have on these manners, not my own. Altho, I do personally feel that some of it is true, and it should be easy to figure out which that is.

In other words, when I say "reinforce perceptions that US = World", I'm speaking about how other people, typically other Americans, will look at it as. I know exactly what you're talking about in regards to the whole Joystick thing, but I'm telling you that the way they frame it, focuses on it from a pretty American point of view, and "black" in America has a different definition than in other countries.

But the dominant number of people reading it will be English-speaking, and the way the article is framed, likely American. The article's use of black is clearly in terms of the American definition of people of African ethnic heritage; I'm obviously not saying dark-skinned people of other ethnic heritages don't experience this sort of thing, but the article itself isn't referring to it from that frame of mind. So the readers, mostly English-speaking, mostly American....they're going to see it from an American POV. That isn't right, but that is how most people think.

All of this is for naught, though, because in the end you practically say exactly the same thing I'm saying; however I'm willing to take it a step further and say that this isn't even something black (btw, I can clearly understand that the term "black" means different things in other countries, but this article is obviously referring to the definition of it as people of African ethnic heritage, not the broader context of those of other ethnic heritages being dark-skinned, so I don't know why you bought that up) people face absolutely in the U.S (or that it's a problem that only afflicts black minorities in America, but the article doesn't really go into that so neither do we need to in this case); it is a problem, and large enough of one to merit discussion, but let's not go into saying you could round up 100 black people and get 95 of them to attest to this being a regular occurrence to the most extreme examples posted in this thread.

And me mentioning that isn't to belittle those extreme instances either; they're despicable and the people who do that sort of thing are miserable imps with cold sickly hearts. But those are the extremes; the extremes of anything are usually not the majority, that's just common sense.

Honestly I don't know how you interpreted what I said in any other way than what it is, or saw it as dismissive of the point of the thread. I'm just adding clarity here, that it isn't a "doom and gloom" virtual dystopia situation for many black gamers both in NA and globally. But part of the reason it may seem that way is due to the influx of articles that focus on exactly that, and never the counterbalance.

Unfortunately it seems I've probably said too much as it is, so I'm bailing out. Don't want unnecessary confrontations or bans from this. And I've pretty much said all I have to say anyhow :/

The point of his comment is Joystiq is an American based site, you can make whwtever arguments you want but it doesn't make a difference. It is only natural for an American site to talk about things from an American stand point. There is nothing to be angry about. It is a little disingenuous to expect a primarily American site that caters to primarily Americans to do a world view, especially since it is difficult due to history.

 

[R3TRO]

Yeah, I don't even voice chat because of this unless it's private parties.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

The point of his comment is Joystiq is an American based site, you can make whwtever arguments you want but it doesn't make a difference. It is only natural for an American site to talk about things from an American stand point. There is nothing to be angry about. It is a little disingenuous to expect a primarily American site that caters to primarily Americans to do a world view, especially since it is difficult due to history.

Anger is for the weak. I'm mildly annoyed/flustered if anything.

And besides, that poster kind of said what you're saying now, but found that to be a nuisance. I'm saying that's a fact and it's messed up, but it's also messed up that many of the same readers will extrapolate that towards the ROTW, or take the most extreme examples and say "that's the standard".

But yeah, that is about the full extent of my opinion in this particular regard.

 

[petran79]

best tutorial ever and by a black nevertheless

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpYdEjvAg3k

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Yeah, I only voice chat in private parties. People assume that I'm not black(Unless I tell them) because I don't have much of an accent.

 

[Velurian]

Doesn't money and market make all the required corrections?

I mean its only a year or sth since the famous "there's 52% or sth famale gamers out there who are on average just under 40"k statistic was made public. I am sure there already companies who know exactly who their market is and they are already making content and adds with that in mind.

I mean what are we trying to achieve here?

I think being racist and having "enough representatives of [insert non-white male here]" in video games are to separate topics and not even related.

... or do we want to make this into an integration issue? I mean EU has been working hard on making multicluti the new black [pun intended, pardon me] but its kind of tough considering the history this continent has. I'd imagine its a bit easier in the states. And so far we catering mainly to the western audience, if asians ever get over the european beauty ideals (and the living standard goes up a lil more) , we are gonna have a 6 x bigger market there with gamers waiting to see beautiful asians starring...

... maybe its coz i am white i really dont care about the topic but I really fail to see reasoning behind making it into an issue. And as always, money will make corrections on a large scale and yes, there will always be racist pricks...

 

[Heart of Black]

best tutorial ever and by a black nevertheless

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpYdEjvAg3k

Sure you don't want to edit this? Like why is this here?

If you want to find other Black voices to follow in the industry, check out this link: http://www.thecoli.com/threads/black-people-working-in-the-video-game-industry.237512/

Hey, I know a bunch of those people! Thanks for the link.. as I am always trying to meet more. Nice to see I'm on there as well.

Also thanks to SirTapTap for the shout out.

Need to add at least Catt Small to that list.

 

[Scrupulous]

I identify with the "Black Nerd" comment. I get some flak from my black friends, but even from my white friends. I'm now the whitest black guy they know. As if being educated, and liking intelligent topics, somehow makes me less black.

Somewhat reflects me around some of my mates.

 

[Heart of Black]

Somewhat reflects me around some of my mates.

I got asked why I speak so "white" by a dude I knew at an EB Games I hung around - granted there were 4 black men in the room.

I just said "education doesn't make you "white"" or something like that.

A dude who used to come into our store was from the Hamptons, only black kid in his school.

 

[staticneuron]

And me mentioning that isn't to belittle those extreme instances either; they're despicable and the people who do that sort of thing are miserable imps with cold sickly hearts. But those are the extremes; the extremes of anything are usually not the majority, that's just common sense.

Honestly I don't know how you interpreted what I said in any other way than what it is, or saw it as dismissive of the point of the thread. I'm just adding clarity here, that it isn't a "doom and gloom" virtual dystopia situation for many black gamers both in NA and globally. But part of the reason it may seem that way is due to the influx of articles that focus on exactly that, and never the counterbalance.

Anger is for the weak. I'm mildly annoyed/flustered if anything.

And besides, that poster kind of said what you're saying now, but found that to be a nuisance. I'm saying that's a fact and it's messed up, but it's also messed up that many of the same readers will extrapolate that towards the ROTW, or take the most extreme examples and say "that's the standard".

But yeah, that is about the full extent of my opinion in this particular regard.

I am sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying but I got the impression that your expecting Joystiq to provide more than an American point of view.

As far as "extremes", this sort of scenario is like asking a black person in the US if they have ever been pulled over or stopped by a cop simply because they "fit" a description. Stories I hear like that are in fact very common, for me personally I have had guns pulled on me and the worst offense I have ever had was a ticket for driving 10 miles over the speed limit.

So just for clarification are you putting forth the argument that black people that game on the internet and are revealed to be black normally do "not" experience racism? Or that these examples in the article are just wild extremes?

Again I am not trying to offend here just trying to gain clarification .

Hey folks, thanks for the kind words. I'm thrilled with how Jess' article turned out, it took a long time for her to research and conduct all the interviews. I appreciate seeing the notes here and further stories from y'all!

Please tell her thank you! It was a very interesting article that hits close to home for many in this thread.


*Edited for misquote

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

As a black woman who wants to own a game publishing company this looks very sad and makes me a bit angry, but it's not going to stop me from accomplishing my goal. I'm tired of just seeing a bunch of white men star in games. There are more animal characters in video games than black, Indigenous, other characters.

 

[silvermember]

Anger is for the weak. I'm mildly annoyed/flustered if anything.

And besides, that poster kind of said what you're saying now, but found that to be a nuisance. I'm saying that's a fact and it's messed up, but it's also messed up that many of the same readers will extrapolate that towards the ROTW, or take the most extreme examples and say "that's the standard".

But yeah, that is about the full extent of my opinion in this particular regard.

Read exactly what you wrote in post #209. The concept of race changes depending on the location, for that reason there is no point bothering or even attempting to care about "blacks" from other regions, since it will require more work and since ultimate the results are not useful nor interesting majority of the potential readers aka Americans. Also how would you know if the examples are the most extreme? the fact of the matter is it happens and it should not happen.

Also, please don't use non standard Acronyms I don't know what ROTW means.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Doesn't money and market make all the required corrections?

I mean its only a year or sth since the famous "there's 52% or sth famale gamers out there who are on average just under 40"k statistic was made public. I am sure there already companies who know exactly who their market is and they are already making content and adds with that in mind.

I mean what are we trying to achieve here?

I think being racist and having "enough representatives of [insert non-white male here]" in video games are to separate topics and not even related.

... or do we want to make this into an integration issue? I mean EU has been working hard on making multicluti the new black [pun intended, pardon me] but its kind of tough considering the history this continent has. I'd imagine its a bit easier in the states. And so far we catering mainly to the western audience, if asians ever get over the european beauty ideals (and the living standard goes up a lil more) , we are gonna have a 6 x bigger market there with gamers waiting to see beautiful asians starring...

... maybe its coz i am white i really dont care about the topic but I really fail to see reasoning behind making it into an issue. And as always, money will make corrections on a large scale and yes, there will always be racist pricks...

Money is part of the problem. Capitalism is, really, but you're not in a state of mind where you're ready to understand that yet.

Also what you're mentioning isn't really a solution, it's just the problem repeating itself, but with a different group of people. Heck it doesn't actually address the problem at hand; it's about antagonizing people based on their ethnicity or jumping to using racial slurs to attack people. Not exactly tied to representation :/

 

[JimmyRustler]

Must be an English thing. During my 2 years of Counterstrike I barely experianced racism or got insults for my origin (I have noticeable accent). Though I did mostly play on German servers, so that might be a reason.

I feel real sorry for the people having to deal with this. Some people are just assholes.

 

[Infinite]

Money is part of the problem. Capitalism is, really, but you're not in a state of mind where you're ready to understand that yet.

Also what you're mentioning isn't really a solution, it's just the problem repeating itself, but with a different group of people. Heck it doesn't actually address the problem at hand; it's about antagonizing people based on their ethnicity or jumping to using racial slurs to attack people. Not exactly tied to representation :/

Not to mention his argument on representation is intellectually dishonest and fallacious.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I haven't had much racist shit thrown at me in online games probably because I play on PS3 and I mainly played fighters, LittleBigPlanet, and Uncharted 2. I got some ignorant motherfucker on Uncharted 2 who called me racist for my username, which is the closest I've ever gotten.

Actually, I have a feeling in the back of my mind that I did hear someone call another black player nigger on Uncharted 2, but I think I muted him immediately.

I sort of agree with the quote about black presence in other forms of entertainment. There surely isn't a lack of black or Latino faces in music, film and television have improved, but as far as writing goes there are black writers out there in fiction, but none of them are popular outside black readers. The Hunger Games, 50 Shades of Grey, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Eragon, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Davinci Code, War and Peace, 1984, are all written by white authors.

I really want to see more people of color in the industry. When I make moves happen I will make sure to look out for my brothers and sisters. If I can set an example then maybe more people will be inspired to get into the industry. I'm not only tired about representation, but also create a character modes that lack in making anyone who is not white or Asian. There is basically almost no black hair options and the skin colors look terrible. If black people were making these games they would most definitely try and make them look as good as they can. The Japanese despite being an Asian nation, heavily includes white men and women in their games. I'm not entirely sure why. It might be because they are influenced by our media and all they see are white dudes or they are using the same not profitable excuse that western developers are using.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

So just for clarification are you putting forth the argument that black people that game on the internet and are revealed to be black normally do "not" experience racism? Or that these examples in the article are just wild extremes?

No, I'm saying that every black person who does that and where the "reveal" occurs is not necessarily subject to that extreme discrimination, and that's a more than fair opinion to have imho. It comes down to so many factors other than the most obvious (and therefore easiest to blame), such as who you're playing with for starters. Yes being in an open unrestricted lobby increases the chances, but it's not a 100% thing. That much is certain.

I was actually referring to a few of the posts in this thread as examples and that one w/ the twitch tv thing as examples. Not sure if the twitch one was in the article or not.

The concept of race changes depending on the location, for that reason there is no point bothering or even attempting to care about "blacks" from other regions, since it will require more work and since ultimate the results are not useful nor interesting majority of the potential readers aka Americans.

Yes this is my opinion (actually my concept on race is that "race" as a scientific concept does not exist, but w/e), but this isn't what I'm actually saying. I never said that dark-skinned individuals of non-African heritages in other regions aren't worth caring about, I would never say such a thing.

I was merely saying that in regarding the article and the fact it's American-focused, to Americans reading it, they are more likely to associate what's being said there towards an African-American than a Yemeni-American or Indian-American of dark skin complexion. That's all I'm actually saying there.

If the article were referring to "black" in terms of skin tone and not ethnicity, what you're referring to in terms of "blacks" from other regions, would actually be very useful and important to the article's point I feel. But that isn't the case here. It would be really interesting for someone to write about it from that perspective, however.

 

[Velurian]

Money is part of the problem. Capitalism is, really, but you're not in a state of mind where you're ready to understand that yet.

Also what you're mentioning isn't really a solution, it's just the problem repeating itself, but with a different group of people. Heck it doesn't actually address the problem at hand; it's about antagonizing people based on their ethnicity or jumping to using racial slurs to attack people. Not exactly tied to representation :/

Well, thanks for talking down to me but I think you misunderstand my intentions here.

I am not trying to propose "the best/most ethical/culturally respected" solution here. I am just saying, that in real real wold, where money is the king, thats how things usually turn out. And yes, it can be unfair but it cant - in its essence - be racist, be cause the cause is not the race, the result is.

... and unless you can change capitalism and global economy, you dont seem to have very many direct methods for change. There is propaganda, but that too costs money...

Not to mention his argument on representation is intellectually dishonest and fallacious.

Please elaborate.

All-in-all I could not care less about the race of people in video games/movies/music. Its the quality that I care about. If the game is good, its not gonna be better if there is a [insert any non-white/hetero] starring in it. To me, it makes 0 difference. Again I fail to see, how forcing ethnical variety would grant better experience. Don't get me wrong, I am not against it (I dont care), but I just fail to see, what would be better. On the other hand, if the game or other form of art is of high quality it will sell well despite of the main characters/creators ethnical background. Or maybe you have some interesting statistics to point out the opposite?

 

[Thomaticus`]

I was playing COD and a guy on my team figures out I'm black; he follows me around shooting at me, calling me "N..." while totally ignoring the match.

 

[staticneuron]

No, I'm saying that every black person who does that and where the "reveal" occurs is not necessarily subject to that extreme discrimination, and that's a more than fair opinion to have imho. It comes down to so many factors other than the most obvious (and therefore easiest to blame), such as who you're playing with for starters. Yes being in an open unrestricted lobby increases the chances, but it's not a 100% thing. That much is certain.

I was actually referring to a few of the posts in this thread as examples and that one w/ the twitch tv thing as examples. Not sure if the twitch one was in the article or not.

Oh yeah. I agree. It doesn't happen to me 100% either. Just enough to make me prefer private parties.

One thing I really must point out as well. I have never experienced racism or hatred in any MMO I have played. I think I have played about 6 or 8 different genres of MMO's. I found that to be awesome.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

I am not trying to propose "the best/most ethical/culturally respected" solution here. I am just saying, that in real real wold, where money is the king, thats how things usually turn out. And yes, it can be unfair but it cant - in its essence - be racist, be cause the cause is not the race, the result is.

....Wat?

Of course it can be racist. Money and power (let me make this clear, an excessive amont of money and power) fuel ego, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and fuels absolute ego. Money fuels greed and that greed feeds back into ego. When you are looking for reasons to state why you have money and power and "others" do not, you end up looking for just about any difference. Differences based on perceived lack of work ethics, behavioral traits etc., that are also part and parcel of institutional education and belief structures.

Certain societies have a habit of tying these to particular groups either along lines of gender or ethnicity, and those beliefs are disseminated along sectors of the society. This creates perceived notions of individuals feeling entitled to wealth simply based on, among other things, their ethnicity, and/or believing members of other ethnic groups cannot achieve similar due to some genetic mumbo-jumbo BS.

I am not saying that is the status quo of every person of extreme wealth, or homogenous (or mostly homogenous) societies of extreme wealth. But pretending that it can't be fed into by, or breed, racist notions is to shut the book on the entirety of human history, and it makes you look kinda shortsighted.

And fwiw, I've spent time considering alternatives to the current financial monetary system in my spare time. Nothing too painstakingly serious, but if I didn't feel they couldn't work off a strong foundation I'd of not gone into the depths I did with some of them. But I don't think every person who has a problem with the global monetary systems needs to be some sort of genius in devising fully-functioning alternatives to have an opinion worth listening to on that, either. To hold such a viewpoint on that is laughable.

 

[Velurian]

....Wat?

Of course it can be racist. Money and power (let me make this clear, an excessive amont of money and power) fuel ego, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and fuels absolute ego. Money fuels greed and that greed feeds back into ego. When you are looking for reasons to state why you have money and power and "others" do not, you end up looking for just about any difference. Differences based on perceived lack of work ethics, behavioral traits etc., that are also part and parcel of institutional education and belief structures.

Certain societies have a habit of tying these to particular groups either along lines of gender or ethnicity, and those beliefs are disseminated along sectors of the society. This creates perceived notions of individuals feeling entitled to wealth simply based on, among other things, their ethnicity, and/or believing members of other ethnic groups cannot achieve similar due to some genetic mumbo-jumbo BS.

I am not saying that is the status quo of every person of extreme wealth, or homogenous (or mostly homogenous) societies of extreme wealth. But pretending that it can't be fed into by, or breed, racist notions is to shut the book on the entirety of human history, and it makes you look kinda shortsighted.

And fwiw, I've spent time considering alternatives to the current financial monetary system in my spare time. Nothing too painstakingly serious, but if I didn't feel they couldn't work off a strong foundation I'd of not gone into the depths I did with some of them. But I don't think every person who has a problem with the global monetary systems needs to be some sort of genius in devising fully-functioning alternatives to have an opinion worth listening to on that, either. To hold such a viewpoint on that is laughable.

So what you are saying is that if I have a T-shirt shop and I look at my sales and see that the majority of my clients like the green ones and the other ones barely sell at all. In fact I make less from selling them, than I waste on making them. And if then choose to not sell the other shirts anymore, and focus my attention to the majority of my clients, that have liked the green ones, then I am a racist? [assuming here that they happen to be of similar race]

... and what has it all to do with making up a new global monetary system? I didn't give an assessment to the current one. I just stated blatant truth about how capitalism works and said that I don't its racist, because people don't make those decisions based on race. They make them to earn more money. Racism is at best a byproduct.

... and not 100% of the time a bad phenomena in itself [not that I am defending the concept]. Here is an interesting slightly OT example.
In Switzerland there was a public voting about should they legalize minarets. People voted "no". So now, in Europe, in middle of EU we have a country, that publicly discriminated every Islamic person in the world.
But, since it is the will of the people, the majority living in that country,the government and the world respect it.

On one hand you could say its a tragedy. People are denied their religious freedom.
On the other hand you could say it is democracy at its best.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

So what you are saying is that if I have a T-shirt shop and I look at my sales and see that the majority of my clients like the green ones and the other ones barely sell at all. In fact I make less from selling them, than I waste on making them. And if then choose to not sell the other shirts anymore, and focus my attention to the majority of my clients, that have liked the green ones, then I am a racist? [assuming here that they happen to be of similar race]

... and what has it all to do with making up a new global monetary system? I didn't give an assessment to the current one. I just stated blatant truth about how capitalism works and said that I don't its racist, because people don't make those decisions based on race. They make them to earn more money. Racism is at best a byproduct.

... and not 100% of the time a bad phenomena in itself [not that I am defending the concept]. Here is an interesting slightly OT example.
In Switzerland there was a public voting about should they legalize minarets. People voted "no". So now, in Europe, in middle of EU we have a country, that publicly discriminated every Islamic person in the world.
But, since it is the will of the people, the majority living in that country,the government and the world respect it.

On one hand you could say its a tragedy. People are denied their religious freedom.
On the other hand you could say it is democracy at its best.

It's jaded, flawed democracy, and the flaw falls on the republic. You're acting like people are 100% knowing and correct in their thought processes. They are not. So people unanimously voted against minarets...all that says is they didn't like the idea of them being legalized. What you're failing to do is to go into the "why" of the matter, because that's where things actually matter, and where the valuable data sits.

Your other example just doesn't say anything; it doesn't knock down my point and doesn't bolster yours. Just kind of sitting out there, doing its own thing. It's not like you're deciding that only white people can buy the green shirts, or only Latinos can buy the blue ones or whatever.

You seem to misunderstand some of what I'm saying. I'm not talking about average businesses, I'm talking about people with obscene levels of wealth. And I'm not talking about regular Joe capitalism, but hyper-capitalism. The push to maximize sales can inevitably come at the detriment of neglecting groups of people that don't fit into "your demographic", but lots of ventures are initially started up in order to appeal to an existing demographic. This is why things such as focus tests and market group research studies exist. It's why those online surveys exist, etc.

I mean, just how many commercial products do you see respectfully developed with Native Americans in mind these days? Exactly.

The reason why racial factors can play a hand into that (in addition or instead of just being a "mere byproduct") is because aside from there needing to already be preexisting demographics, it isn't necessarily a secret that institutional systems exist in many societies that were, or have indirectly worked against, members of their populations who tend to be the ethnic minorities and/or gender minorities.

And like you said, a good deal of that is naturally going to come about when you consider who the majority is, let alone in what business sectors etc. But then you yourself are turning around and saying "well whatever, I don't really give a flip b/c I just do XYZ to have fun". Well, I also play games just to have fun, lots of us do. And personally representation is not at the top of my own list of things I desirably want or need most out of my games.

But ..... I don't pretend it isn't a problem, and I don't pretend others don't care about it, either. I also don't pretend (since you started your point off of representation (which this wasn't about) and I've conveniently tied that into the discussion) that lack of representation of ethnic minorities in games (in this case, black Americans) isn't a direct factor for the pervasiveness or existence of the sort of racially-charged banter that the article in the OP is talking about.

To think the two are in their own separate vacuums is silly, but to try and say you don't care about Problem Y because you don't quite care about Problem X due to Scenario C, when the entire point of the discussion up to that point was about Problem Y, is just being dangerously disingenuous.

 

[Mizerman]

I identify with the "Black Nerd" comment. I get some flak from my black friends, but even from my white friends. I'm now the whitest black guy they know. As if being educated, and liking intelligent topics, somehow makes me less black.

I can relate to this so much.

 

[TalonJH]

I can relate to this so much.

Being a "black nerd" doesn't make you white. People regardless of their race that insinuate that are just ignorant.