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[Foxy the Fox]

Extreme right: run a car into a crowd of protesters, killing a woman
Extreme left: burn some cars (allegedly) and fight nazis

Yeah they look pretty samey to me.

The US-centric entitlement is real.

The right and left changes according to the country and context you know?

 

[Oersted]

That's something different. If you include hate speech, that's correct. If you talk about violent crimes (Koerperverletzung) and criminal damage (Sachbeschaedigung), it's different. Though at least for violent crimes the numbers apparently changed last year, so that one is higher for right-wing motivated cases now:

You end up rather easy as leftwing criminal in the statistics. There was just recently the case of a police officer bumping into a journalist. The journalist ended up being part of the statistic because she took revenge on his polite complaining about it.

 

[ultratruman]

A lot of people don't know this, but a big reason for the Nazi's polling victory was the explosion of constant Left-wing vs Right-wing street violence in the early 30s.

The centre Left in Germany were utterly discredited and fractured by the violence; the Right (as always) remained more unified.

I'm not saying this is a good move by German authorities, but Germany takes a hard line on all forms of political violence for a reason. Physical violence poisons politics, it is an extremely dangerous thing to advocate.

 

[Occam]

Justifying the ban, de Maizière said that the measures were a "consistent" action against "left-wing extremist hate speech," before adding, "The call for violence against police officers and their description as 'pigs' and 'murderers' is supposed to legitimize violence against policemen. It is the expression of an attitude that tramples on human dignity."

Good. No reason radical leftists should be treated differently than right-wing extremists or Islamists. Being allowed to call for violence against others is not freedom of speech, it's harmful to society.

Calling the German police "murderers" is idiotic; only 11 people were shot in 2016.
As comparison, the Washington Post lists 963 fatal police shootings in the US for 2016.

 

[Man with Knife]

One of the things I really didn't like about the site was that they revealed names and pictures, sometimes even home address and/or place of work, of alleged Nazis and AfD-supporters/party members. I hate those guys but even they have a right of privacy.

If that's true, it's good they got shut down

 

[PdotMichael]

Feel free to talk a little more about what you dislike about the "extreme left" in Europe.

I mean the RAF was totally not a thing in Germany.

 

[Kthulhu]

Seems like a good reason to take it down.

 

[Deleted member 98878]

If that's true, it's good they got shut down

for example

first name/last name/street address/postcode/city/e-mail/phone number/DoB/(party) membership number

 

[crowphoenix]

I like my extremism excellent.

Really why should you settle for mediocre extremism? It costs the same and they want just as much of a tip.

 

[KDR_11k]

The extreme left often oversteps boundaries too and sometimes needs to be reigned in. The raid found plenty of weapons so there was an actual threat here.

That's something different. If you include hate speech, that's correct. If you talk about violent crimes (Koerperverletzung) and criminal damage (Sachbeschaedigung), it's different. Though at least for violent crimes the numbers apparently changed last year, so that one is higher for right-wing motivated cases now:

That's because the extreme right is under intense surveillance and scrutiny and they know that any wrong move gets their groups and marches banned immediately while the extreme left is more open and careless. Demonstrations by the extreme right are much less likely to descend into violence (unless the police fucks up and the counterprotesters get to them). The extreme right is still more dangerous but they're sneakier.

 

[PdotMichael]

A lot of people don't know this, but a big reason for the Nazi's polling victory was the explosion of constant Left-wing vs Right-wing street violence in the early 30s.

The centre Left in Germany were utterly discredited and fractured by the violence; the Right (as always) remained more unified.

I'm not saying this is a good move by German authorities, but Germany takes a hard line on all forms of political violence for a reason. Physical violence poisons politics, it is an extremely dangerous thing to advocate.

It's pretty simple. If you call for violence against a group of people you are already violating the very first article of the Basic Law.

(1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.

(2) The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world.

 

[L Thammy]

for example


first name/last name/street address/postcode/city/e-mail/phone number/DoB/(party) membership number

So this isn't Germany becoming a police state because limitations were placed on free speech?

 

[Fritz]

So this isn't Germany becoming a police state because limitations were placed on free speech?

No?

 

[Muffin1611]

So this isn't Germany becoming a police state because limitations were placed on free speech?

Limitations on free speech of this kind are almost sixty years old.

 

[PdotMichael]

So this isn't Germany becoming a police state because limitations were placed on free speech?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Germany

 

[Xe4]

I'm fine with this. Advocating and planning for violence and destruction of property clearly breaches the 1st ammendment rights (or equivalent) of any countries constitution, much less in a country like Germany.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Extreme right: run a car into a crowd of protesters, killing a woman
Extreme left: burn some cars (allegedly) and fight nazis

Yeah they look pretty samey to me.

Oh, Its a thread about germany, let me talk about the US

thisisneogaf.gif

 

[PdotMichael]

Oh, Its a thread about germany, let me talk about the US

thisisneogaf.gif

Well, the USA not just went a massive propaganda campaign against anything socialist they just plain banned any revolutionary group - Smith Act, COINTELPRO, McCarthy's antics.

Glorious freedom of speech! Gonna teach me more about it, GAF!

 

[Nerazar]

Pathetic.

Defending hate speech, hm?

I welcome this move. It has the drawback that the police won't be able to monitor the left scene with this site anymore, but another one will pop up eventually. Extremist webpages always do, in one form or another.

The next step should be shutting down the Red Flora in Hamburg. They have shown the world that they cannot protest non-violently, so they have lost the right to be part of any social movement. The Antifa is a bloody stain on any form of activism.

 

[Oersted]

Defending hate speech, hm?

I welcome this move. It has the drawback that the police won't be able to monitor the left scene with this site anymore, but another one will pop up eventually. Extremist webpages always do, in one form or another.

The next step should be shutting down the Red Flora in Hamburg. They have shown the world that they cannot protest non-violently, so they have lost the right to be part of any social movement. The Antifa is a bloody stain on any form of activism.

Rote Flora actually opposed the overstated violence, followed the demands of the police and has the backing of the people in the area, including store owners.

But okay. You have already setup your worldview, so I might as well talk with a wall.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

The Red Army Faction (RAF; German: Rote Armee Fraktion[a]), in its early stages commonly known as the Baader-Meinhof Group or Baader-Meinhof Gang (German: Baader-Meinhof-Gruppe, Baader-Meinhof-Bande), was a West German far-left militant group. The RAF was founded in 1970 by Andreas Baader, Gudrun Ensslin, Horst Mahler, and Ulrike Meinhof. The West German government considered the Red Army Faction to be a terrorist organization.[c] The group was supported by the East German state security agency, the Stasi.[2][3]

The Red Army Faction engaged in a series of bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, bank robberies, and shoot-outs with police over the course of three decades. Their activity peaked in late 1977, which led to a national crisis that became known as the "German Autumn". The RAF has been held responsible for thirty-four deaths, including many secondary targets, such as chauffeurs and bodyguards, as well as many injuries throughout its almost thirty years of activity. Although better-known, the RAF conducted fewer attacks than the Revolutionary Cells (Revolutionäre Zellen, RZ), which is held responsible for 296 bomb attacks, arson and other attacks between 1973 and 1995.[4]

Germany has seen a bit more of this than the US or Britain

 

[Kyzer]

How left wing are we talking here?

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Excellent extremism goes both ways, lead the way Germany!

Both sides, huh? Any thoughts on Charlotte while you're pontificating?

 

[Shiggy]

That's because the extreme right is under intense surveillance and scrutiny and they know that any wrong move gets their groups and marches banned immediately while the extreme left is more open and careless. Demonstrations by the extreme right are much less likely to descend into violence (unless the police fucks up and the counterprotesters get to them). The extreme right is still more dangerous but they're sneakier.

Seems to work pretty well then. If surveillance and intense scrutiny help prevent extremist crimes, as you suggest, then such surveillance on the extremist left should also be intensified - instead of saying there's no issue with left-wing extremism as the Linke and parts of the SPD do.

The next step should be shutting down the Red Flora in Hamburg. They have shown the world that they cannot protest non-violently, so they have lost the right to be part of any social movement. The Antifa is a bloody stain on any form of activism.

The Rote Flora didn't defend it, their lawyer just said it should be done in the richer districts of Hamburg Others from the Rote Flora were actually more clever than that guy (or as KDR_11k would say: "sneakier") and didn't endorse the violence publicly.

 

[patapuf]

Both sides, huh? Any thoughts on Charlotte while you're pontificating?

Just because left extremists barely exist in the USA doesn't that's the same everywhere in europe.

Germany specifically has quite a bit of history in this regard.


Indymedia has usually been savy enough to avoid trouble but after the G20 protests, someone was going to take a closer look to say they did something.

 

[waveuponwave]

for example


first name/last name/street address/postcode/city/e-mail/phone number/DoB/(party) membership number

I hate the AFD but doxxing people like this is really shitty. Protest their politics, keep the private lives of party members out of this

There was a case in Berlin where people launched a campaign against a dentist because he joined the AFD, including protests in front of his practice, flyers to his patients etc and that takes anti-AFD activism way too far.

If there's evidence that someone discriminated against people in his job, sure, go for it. But as long as that's not the case everyone should have a right to privacy

 

[haveheart]

That's something different. If you include hate speech, that's correct. If you talk about violent crimes (Koerperverletzung) and criminal damage (Sachbeschaedigung), it's different. Though at least for violent crimes the numbers apparently changed last year, so that one is higher for right-wing motivated cases now:

Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:

There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).

 

[Principate]

The US-centric entitlement is real.

The right and left changes according to the country and context you know?

Not when you have someone in this thread claiming their the same as idealists as well.

 

[Frankfurter]

I'm undecided on this. I'd like the owners of the website to sue to see what happens. Free speech isn't unlimited over here (it isn't unlimited in the US either, but anyway), but there need to be very good reasons to limit it in this kind of way.

 

[Muffin1611]

Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:




There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).

Don't bother. I gave him these exact statistics in a past thread already. It's on purpose.

 

[Frankfurter]

Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:




There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).

I'm curious, is there this kind of data for more years, going back, say, all the way until ~2000?

 

[cromofo]

Good.

 

[Salty Rice]

After what happened in Hamburg good.

Fuck these guys.

 

[Kinyou]

Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:




There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).

He was specifically talking about violent crimes (gewalttaten). The stats look relatively close there.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:




There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).

But isn't that stuff from the right mostly propaganda and incitement to hatred. Which, like the other poster said, is not the violent crime part. The rest seems to be pretty even.

 

[PdotMichael]

Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:




There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).

Looking at the violence the gap isn't that big. Like there were more violence related crimes by the extremist left in 2015.

 

[Joni]

Good. There shouldn't be a hint of legal bias between taking on left or right-wing extremists when it comes to their crimes. That only lets one side play the victim.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Took them way too long.

 

[Muffin1611]

He was specifically talking about violent crimes (gewalttaten). The stats look relatively close there.

But isn't that stuff from the right mostly propaganda and incitement to hatred. Which, like the other poster said, is not the violent crime part. The rest seems to be pretty even.

They are relatively close, but looking at the breakdown it includes things like trespassing property or resisting arrest, which makes left extremism about even.

 

[KDR_11k]

Seems to work pretty well then. If surveillance and intense scrutiny help prevent extremist crimes, as you suggest, then such surveillance on the extremist left should also be intensified - instead of saying there's no issue with left-wing extremism as the Linke and parts of the SPD do.

I think the asymmetry is what keeps the neonazi marches calmer. If counter demonstrations were dissolved as easily as their marches then the neonazis would face little opposition and the massive police cordons around their rally would shrink. Plus the neonazis would feel protected by the state and unopposed, this would allow them to grow like in the US. Denazification is an important process.

Good. There shouldn't be a hint of legal bias between taking on left or right-wing extremists when it comes to their crimes. That only lets one side play the victim.

The extreme left is less of a threat to democracy as a whole (and a threat to democracy is the legal justification for banning neonazi operations).

 

[haveheart]

He was specifically talking about violent crimes (gewalttaten). The stats look relatively close there.

But isn't that stuff from the right mostly propaganda and incitement to hatred. Which, like the other poster said, is not the violent crime part. The rest seems to be pretty even.

Looking at the violence the gap isn't that big. Like there were more violence related crimes by the extremist left in 2015.

Right, you're correct. That's what he said. I'm just a bit startled that you would want to focus on two indicators that are close and neglect everything else. You can't just pick to numbers and then say "look, they are the same!". We definitely shouldn't do that.

 

[Shiggy]

Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:




There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).

Yes, I did look at the original data and the right-wing cases are just much higher because of propaganda and hate speech. The really dangerous stuff where people are assaulted or their property gets damaged has about the same amount of cases on both sides (as shown in the table above).

Unless you want to argue that propaganda and hate speech is as bad as assaulting a person or setting refugee homes on fire.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yes, I did look at the original data and the right-wing cases are just much higher because of propaganda and hate speech. The really dangerous stuff where people are assaulted or their property gets damaged has about the same amount of cases on both sides (as shown in the table above).

Unless you want to argue that propaganda and hate speech is as bad as assaulting a person or setting refugee homes on fire.

I'd be genuinely curious how those stats would split depending on the severity of violent crimes.

This is my bias speaking but I don't recall many attempted murders that are motivated by the extreme left but I can for many murders or attempted by right wing if not stra8ght nazis

 

[Shiggy]

I'd be genuinely curious how those stats would split depending on the severity of violent crimes.

This is my bias speaking but I don't recall many attempted murders that are motivated by the extreme left but I can for many murders or attempted by right wing if not stra8ght nazis

Check this post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247022398&postcount=77
That user has the detailed tables from the Verfassungsschutzbericht 2016.

The number is - thankfully - relatively small on both sides.

 

[travisbickle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction



Germany has seen a bit more of this than the US or Britain

Except you know the IRA.

 

[MUnited83]

??????????


Except German police isn't known for murdering people.
You can't compare the situation 1:1

yep

German police has killed less people in over 50 years than the US police does in a year.

 

[Munti]

Feel free to talk a little more about what you dislike about the "extreme left" in Europe.

There were (are?) organisations like the RAF that acted the same as terror organisations and killed innocent people

 

[knkng]

Right, you're correct. That's what he said. I'm just a bit startled that you would want to focus on two indicators that are close and neglect everything else. You can't just pick to numbers and then say "look, they are the same!". We definitely shouldn't do that.

Well, the website was shut down based on the promotion of violent acts, so measuring violent acts of the supporters seems logical enough.

But really, the dick measuring is irrelevant. If the content of the site is deemed to be illegal, then it should be shut down, regardless of whether it is left-wing or right-wing. That doesn't mean that the actions both political groups are equal (we all know how Gaf loves saying "both sides"). But in terms of criminal prosecution, it really should be equally enforced on both sides, as that's kind of the point of the legal system.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Check this post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247022398&postcount=77
That user has the detailed tables from the Verfassungsschutzbericht 2016.

The number is - thankfully - relatively small on both sides.

thanks that sounds about right with how I perceived it.

yep

German police has killed less people in over 50 years than the US police does in a year.

regardless you should look at these numbers proportionally rather than totally considering there's 4 times as many people living in the US

 

[PdotMichael]

thanks that sounds about right with how I perceived it.

regardless you should look at these numbers proportionally rather than totally considering there's 4 times as many people living in the US

Yes, the American police only shoots 25x so many people as the German police. It's all relative!