Ghost in the Shell director Mamoru Oshii says political correctness has made western games ‘terrible’

Verchod said:
Seems like a really pointless quote. Why does this thread exist? Seems like it's just an excuse to moan about western titles because the female characters are "ugly".

Also, there are plenty of non woke yet completely derivative games from Eastern developers.
Just because they have old school mechanics or they're more combat based makes them somehow true games, and modern western titles are just woke walking simulators.
That's the general vibe I get around here, and it's just daft.
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Exactly! Pure pointless. It just seems like it's missing alot of context.
 
It's nice to see more Japanese creators speak out about it, because there are obvious and objective moneyed interests from the west trying to alter Japanese games. It's gone from the annoying historical stuff of ratings boards demanding changes, to funding mechanism that push for hiring of foreign staff that want to alter things at the design stage. Or the consultancy companies that are wastes of money.

Japan is best when they make weird shit. They were always bad when they try-harded doing Americanized stuff during the 360/PS3 gen, and their only problem involved being behind in game engine tech (or wasting resources making a new engine from scratch per game).
 
We really need to start separating North American games from "Western" Games.

Cyberpunk 2077, Kindgom Come, Clair Obscur, Silent Hill 2 Remake, Plague Tale, Baldur's Gate 3, etc. European developers clearly aren't a problem here. They've put out some of the best games in the past few years. It's North American developers that are suffering from fucking brainrot.
 
The west is poisoned to the brim, there is no way to save it. If people are that delusional to deny simple biological facts, it's over.

Never have I thought this garbage would reach my hobby, but it's a pandemic.
 
Beard Yes GIF by aavegotchi
 
I think if you are super sensitive you're going to find woke everywhere. In reality though, you only have so many dragon ages. I can see counting spiderman 2 and lou2 because the uhh.... conspicuous inclusivism, but after however many of those, there's a lot of the bodytype a-b sort of stuff. If that's ruining a game with wokeness then alright you do you.
 
mckmas8808 said:
It was both of them Fish and Blow.



Hated both of their takes on Japanese video games.
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Pretty crazy that they're both hasbeens now and Japanese games are still going strong. I can't think of many other people in the industry who have put out so few games and talked so much trash. The term 'flash in the pan' describes both of them pretty well.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Are You Sure About That John Cena GIF by MOODMAN
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It's obvious.

Not all western games are woke. So clearly this guy is using hyperbole for dramatic effect. He's not literally saying every western-made games is garbage because of political correctness; because not all western games sacrifice themselves on the altar of political correctness.

This kind of pedantry isn't useful.
 
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Man is on point about enforced political correctness being a constraint. Restrictions on creativity and imagination can be destructive/sterile/a muzzle to a visionary creator.

ElFenomeno said:
Who is this guy? No way. The GAF folks in the Yotei thread are saying we're just paranoid. There is no agenda and western games are as awesome as ever.
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You've been ordered to go watch Ghost in the shell (1995), you uncultured swine. Seriously though. Go watch it if you haven't.
 
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mckmas8808 said:
It was both of them Fish and Blow.



Hated both of their takes on Japanese video games.
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After watching this clip, looks like they're talking about all the shit that we complained about back then.

Archaic UI, excessive handholding, unskippable cutscene, etc.

Of course, there's the smugness and douchey nature of these guys but I'm not sure this is the right clip for the context of the OP.
 
I think it is ruining art. Woke is the new version of Victorian decency. They would cover up nude statues with clothes and take anything provocative out of paintings. They completely vandalized 18th century art. The two ironies is that Victorians used that it wasn't important as an excuse and the type of people who would resent the censoring of art back then (liberals) are for it now. Then again I was brought up in a bit of a religious cult where I couldn't read Harry Potter and was told JK Rowling was the Devil. That 180 will never stop amusing me.
 
Madserb2023 said:
I think it is ruining art. Woke is the new version of Victorian decency. They would cover up nude statues with clothes and take anything provocative out of paintings. They completely vandalized 18th century art. The two ironies is that Victorians used that it wasn't important as an excuse and the type of people who would resent the censoring of art back then (liberals) are for it now. Then again I was brought up in a bit of a religious cult where I couldn't read Harry Potter and was told JK Rowling was the Devil. That 180 will never stop amusing me.
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Yeah, for the past 10 years (and then some) they were/are the new breed of moralists with zero tolerance to anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with their dogma. Same tactics, same vibe, and same strut as the ultra religious conservative right but with a different chapel and commandments.

I lowkey enjoy the irony that they have so much in common with the groups they profess to hate. Different flavors of zealotry and self righteousness.
 
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Its the reason i avoid most media post 2016(what i do consume im very selective on), whereas i can watch/play that majority of media up until that point.
 
darrylgorn said:
After watching this clip, looks like they're talking about all the shit that we complained about back then.

Archaic UI, excessive handholding, unskippable cutscene, etc.

Of course, there's the smugness and douchey nature of these guys but I'm not sure this is the right clip for the context of the OP.
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Yeah maybe people just forgot, but Japanese games were in a dark place in the 7th gen. The PS3/360 era is when Western Game Developers took over the gaming landscape, and dominated for a good period of time. It's just that nowadays the pendulum has swung the other way and now it's Japan and other games from Asia that have made a huge comeback, while games made in North America are falling behind and suffering from brainrot.
 
Verchod said:
Seems like a really pointless quote. Why does this thread exist? Seems like it's just an excuse to moan about western titles because the female characters are "ugly".

Also, there are plenty of non woke yet completely derivative games from Eastern developers.
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It seems that you are missing the point entirely or pretending you do.

Wokeness impacts game design in multiple instances, it's not only about race swapping or uglifying females. That's a shallow conclusion, far from the actual point. This is about bad game design, hand-holding, awful writing, revisionism/vandalization of legacy IPs, trend-chasing, among others.

Wokeness is the talent killer, the big death that brings total obliteration.
 
I just get tired of games having the obligatory gay/trans/whatever characters. Especially when the change an established straight character into one.
 
Not just games but most entertainment, specially from the US.

mckmas8808 said:
It was both of them Fish and Blow.



Hated both of their takes on Japanese video games.
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What always makes this clip extra ironic is that Phil Fish ended up leaving the industry in tears because people were mean to him online . But he sure didn't mind acting like a smug asshole himself.
 
I don't get it. No specifics, only feels.. Looking at my list of recent favorite western games, I don't see much of this making a problem, if at all. This may just be an out of context quote as an excuse for people with political agendas to shout into their echo chambers.
 
Barakov said:
Pretty crazy that they're both hasbeens now and Japanese games are still going strong. I can't think of many other people in the industry who have put out so few games and talked so much trash. The term 'flash in the pan' describes both of them pretty well.
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TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
It's obvious.

Not all western games are woke. So clearly this guy is using hyperbole for dramatic effect. He's not literally saying every western-made games is garbage because of political correctness; because not all western games sacrifice themselves on the altar of political correctness.

This kind of pedantry isn't useful.
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I think his extreme approach through hyperbole then isn't useful. It's not necessary and it undermines his message. The fact that he lumps Western European devs with American devs also isn't useful. If we want to have a real conversation about this, he shouldn't have been so broad in his speech.
 
darrylgorn said:
After watching this clip, looks like they're talking about all the shit that we complained about back then.

Archaic UI, excessive handholding, unskippable cutscene, etc.

Of course, there's the smugness and douchey nature of these guys but I'm not sure this is the right clip for the context of the OP.
Click to expand...

We had some issues with Japanese games back then, but that's not the foundation of what they are saying. Those dudes are straight up trashing JP game design from the ground up. If JP game design was sooooo bad, games like Breath of the Wild, FF7: Rebirth, Nier: Automata, Persona 5 Royal, Octopath Traveler, Yakuza, etc wouldn't have been made.

Their smugness is equal to my guy Mamoru Oshii here. I just want creatives like these to slow down and accurately speak about your issues with the medium. And not paint such a broad brush.

Plague Doctor said:
Yeah, for the past 10 years (and then some) they were/are the new breed of moralists with zero tolerance to anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with their dogma. Same tactics, same vibe, and same strut as the ultra religious conservative right but with a different chapel and commandments.

I lowkey enjoy the irony that they have so much in common with the groups they profess to hate. Different flavors of zealotry and self righteousness.
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And the current Anti-Woke mob will swing things so far that they'll be the moralists in a few years. This thing keeps swinging too far back and forth.
 
He's 100% correct. Thanks to insane levels of political correctness we aren't only getting ugly characters but also terrible and boring characters in western games. Everyone is so scared of offending people or trying hard to push political agendas they are throwing character development to the side and making shitty bland characters that are devoid of anything that makes them stand out in an interesting way. The same political correctness that invaded Hollywood and destroyed it is now affecting games as well. The idea of political correctness sounds great in theory but in practice it's total bullshit and doesn't allow creativity. It's why I mostly play games from the East now. As Western studios have been killing themselves the East has risen in a big way to replace them. Most of my favorite games are either Japanese, Korean or Chinese now. With that said, not all western games are woke or bad but the state of Western gaming is sad compared to where it was a decade ago. Politics from the anti-woke and woke crowd is destroying gaming thanks to political correctness. I wish we could go back to a time when politics didn't exist in gaming and devs were only interested in making the best games with the coolest characters possible in them.
 
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Nah dog. Making blanket statements like that makes you a chump. Japan has zero leg to stand on this as a society either as their fetishism with school girls destroys society just as much.

Isolation and extremely competitive schooling/jobs has made a mental health crisis in Japan.
 
Hawk The Slayer said:
Agreed, I'm team west as I grew up in the U.S watching awesome movies, cartoons, games. For games the west use to have amazing artworks just not the tech at the time to make good graphics. But now some of the western game company are purposely making bad characters.Not just in appearance but also in personalities too at least the more popular ones.

If the west actually turn back to the better mindset than it'll be far better. Witcher 3 was the last time it really got great characters. Captain Titus and Ratchet are still great for the type of games they represent at least. Although I'm still team west now because of modded. fallout and Elder Scroll games. No amount of eastern games will ever overtake them.
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Agreed, as much fun we make of Todd Howard or Randy Pitchford, we genuinely still care about western games.
 
mckmas8808 said:
he current Anti-Woke mob will swing things so far that they'll be the moralists in a few years.
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I'd say they're going even faster than the woke. Intersectional relativism and all the foundational woke stuff took a long time festering in the academy and building bridges into the entertainment industries. But the whiplash is happening much faster. People got tired of it faster than it took them to set up the whole thing, and they are using it try to go faster to the opposite side.
 
mckmas8808 said:
I think his extreme approach through hyperbole then isn't useful. It's not necessary and it undermines his message. The fact that he lumps Western European devs with American devs also isn't useful. If we want to have a real conversation about this, he shouldn't have been so broad in his speech.
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I was a snippet of an offhand comment made within a wider conversation. It wasn't a carefully worded declaration intended for public scrutiny. No-one is THAT precise with their speech when having a casual, informal chat.
 
Lethal01 said:
It's sad seeing someone like this become so lame.
I guess some people really think Trump's delusions are reality
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This is exactly why people can't talk anymore: the problem is the interlocutor. Accusing the guy of generalizations, but at the same time 1 sentence, or 1 specific idea or sentiment, throws you in the same bucket as Trump, Assmongoloid, Musk, and that other idiot Mark Kern. The "if this, then that" culture. "If you do this one thing, then you're that". I am so tired man.

Guardian Monkey said:
That's pretty ironic, that generally the people he is pointing out are the biggest fanbase of anime especially when broken down by subgroups.
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And? The problem right is right there again: what are you trying to say, does he need to be careful when he shares his opinions? Should he pamper that fanbase by rejecting his own self instead? It's their problem. Japan is way past all this crap. It's like Americans coming to Europe and making it about race all the time, while complaining about racism. Europeans are past that shit. Do we need to walk on egg shells all the time because some people go full n*zi whenever the discourse is not perfectly tailored to their world view? It's exactly what he's complaining about. See the actual irony there?

mckmas8808 said:
it sounds like he is condemning all Western games
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mckmas8808 said:
It just seems like it's missing alot of context.
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We know what he's talking about, does he need to go with a full preamble? It's a high-context situation, perhaps you're culturally incompatible and that's why you see a problem. High-context/low-context culture, look it up.

Lunarorbit said:
Nah dog. Making blanket statements like that makes you a chump. Japan has zero leg to stand on this as a society either as their fetishism with school girls destroys society just as much.

Isolation and extremely competitive schooling/jobs has made a mental health crisis in Japan.
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Complains about blanket statements, follows up with a blanket statement
 
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Hensen Juang said:
We know what he's talking about, does he need to go with a full preamble? It's a high-context situation, perhaps you're culturally incompatible and that's why you see a problem. High-context/low-context culture, look it up.
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Or...........................you could refrain from making blanket statements like this. It's not that hard. There's plenty of evidence that he's wrong here.
 
Yes!!!!

Cheer this man!!!!

There are plenty of good ones but one AC Shadows spoils the reputation of "The West."

Honestly, with a few exceptions, I prefer my games to be made in Japan.

You want context, because it isn't "every game"? It's plenty. Will "every other game" work for you? Can we hate Western games again now, do we have your permissions, lol?
the kid mero crying GIF by Desus & Mero
 
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mckmas8808 said:
There's plenty of evidence that he's wrong here
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Where. According to the context he's referring to, it seems to me that he's quite right. And I am not talking about the bastardized argument about women's beauty in video games.

Core:
Political correctness started from the idea of giving legitimacy to the socially weak. There is nothing wrong with that. In a mature society, it is a natural responsibility. However, the problem is that it has taken that as its starting point and made the socially weak into the strong.
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What's wrong with that statement? I am left-handed, society is right-handed, most tools are made for right-handed people. Imagine at some point you got these lobbies coercing companies into making most of the tools left-handed. See where I am going with this? Does that mean that left-handed people need to be left behind? Of course not. Get what I mean.
 
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Hensen Juang said:
Where. According to the context he's referring to, it seems to me that he's quite right. And I am not talking about the bastardized argument about women's beauty in video games.

Core:


What's wrong with that statement? I am left-handed, society is right-handed, most tools are made for right-handed people. Imagine at some point you got these lobbies coercing companies into making most of the tools left-handed. See where I am going with this? Does that mean that left-handed people need to be left behind? Of course not. Get what I mean.
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I don't have an issue with that statement. It was his last statement that I have the issue with.
 
Hensen Juang said:
And? The problem right is right there again: what are you trying to say, does he need to be careful when he shares his opinions? Should he pamper that fanbase by rejecting his own self instead? It's their problem. Japan is way past all this crap. It's like Americans coming to Europe and making it about race all the time, while complaining about racism. Europeans are past that shit. Do we need to walk on egg shells all the time because some people go full n*zi whenever the discourse is not perfectly tailored to their world view? It's exactly what he's complaining about. See the actual irony there?
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Anyone that makes anime is part of that group, because I don't know maybe they are making anime. Anyone that makes it or consumes it falls in that group as well. Sorry, not sorry.😢
 
Achelexus said:
Exactly because it's not a woke game.
Wokeness in games usually just turns it into a shithole.
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So, then it's true that Western games aren't all terrible. I'd like to hear Oshii's opinion on the bad Eastern or even the bad Japanese games that are being made today.
 
Explaining the effect something has on all of society or even civilization as a whole is difficult. It feels nebulous and it is difficult to make concrete-sounding. It is important to do so, but only some subjects qualify and I think this is one of them.
 
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