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Ghost in the Shell's ending spurs new accusations of even worse whitewashing
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SolidusDave
Member
- there is currently no Asian lead actress that could justify this kind of production value for a worldwide audience (in fact, there are hardly any female lead actresses that can carry an action movie, but I guess representation of women is already not worth acknowledging anymore). Movie stars currency is popularity, nothing more.
edit: We can move the discussion to there being systemic racism for Asian actresses from both casting people and the audience (all races), but that still just fuels the status quo that leads to these casting choices that are not made due to racism. Do you honestly think the GitS casting people would NOT pick an even more famous but Asian actress if available?
- the movie depicts a highly multicultural society (and thus actors of varies races), the (US) minorities didn't get a lot of face time but no one did outside of Scarjo, then a big drop and then it's like 2-4 other characters.
- There are zero racial tensions in that society. This is also in line with how the racial background of the GitS characters has not been important for any aspect. Race is simply not part of the plot at all and you could make all the characters black if you wanted to without disrespecting the source material.
- From my point of view, they even topped that by demonstrating how race IS irrelevant. i.e. the "twist" that shows that Major had an Asian body - which didn't freak her out at all. There's no outburst of "oh shit I'm Asian?!" and at the end she embraces her Asian mother - because the point was that she finally found her connection in life like other humans. Not what race she is.
- The name drop (and origin) of Motoko was obviously to be able to reference the source material. They didn't have any obligations to mention her or making her Asian but they did and I appreciate that as fan service.
How is this even whitewashing if your Aryan protagonist turns out to be Asian (they even showed her past self)?! That's literally the nightmare of any supremacist.
If money wouldn't be an issue I definitely would have preferred an Asian actress (while remaining the chunky/muscular look of Scarjo-Major), but if your only argument for why some movie studio is obligated to make a bad business decision is that you want your waifu in a Hollywood lead role...
edit: We can move the discussion to there being systemic racism for Asian actresses from both casting people and the audience (all races), but that still just fuels the status quo that leads to these casting choices that are not made due to racism. Do you honestly think the GitS casting people would NOT pick an even more famous but Asian actress if available?
- the movie depicts a highly multicultural society (and thus actors of varies races), the (US) minorities didn't get a lot of face time but no one did outside of Scarjo, then a big drop and then it's like 2-4 other characters.
- There are zero racial tensions in that society. This is also in line with how the racial background of the GitS characters has not been important for any aspect. Race is simply not part of the plot at all and you could make all the characters black if you wanted to without disrespecting the source material.
- From my point of view, they even topped that by demonstrating how race IS irrelevant. i.e. the "twist" that shows that Major had an Asian body - which didn't freak her out at all. There's no outburst of "oh shit I'm Asian?!" and at the end she embraces her Asian mother - because the point was that she finally found her connection in life like other humans. Not what race she is.
- The name drop (and origin) of Motoko was obviously to be able to reference the source material. They didn't have any obligations to mention her or making her Asian but they did and I appreciate that as fan service.
How is this even whitewashing if your Aryan protagonist turns out to be Asian (they even showed her past self)?! That's literally the nightmare of any supremacist.
If money wouldn't be an issue I definitely would have preferred an Asian actress (while remaining the chunky/muscular look of Scarjo-Major), but if your only argument for why some movie studio is obligated to make a bad business decision is that you want your waifu in a Hollywood lead role...
Your post is wrong and strange on so many levels that I don't even know what to reply.
spazchicken
Member
White supremacy covers all angles.
And I don't know about this particular case but the sad part is that a lot of it doesn't even come from people of European lineage.
And I don't know about this particular case but the sad part is that a lot of it doesn't even come from people of European lineage.
SolidusDave
Member
I realize this whole thing is a touchy subject and was discussed so much more here than the actual movie, but I'm just baffled how the ending is considered "worse whitewashing" and not the opposite.
So if she had been a white girl named Barbara that would have been less offensive?
IMACOMPUTA
Member
Yes.
SolidusDave
Member
Alright, alright. All your compelling arguments have convinced me. This movie is the epitome of racism.
I don't know how difficult this concept is. People want to argue that "race" doesn't matter for GITS and/or the Major. And that there's nothing in the source text or the new marketing material that specifically makes an Asian actress a more appropriate casting. That's the crux of your defense, yes?
Except they made Mira explicitly Asian in the story, with an Asian mother and a "real" Asian identity that's more authentic than her Mira persona, an Asian identity which she winds up accepting. She is literally a white woman who accepts she's Asian on the inside.
So despite all the hand wringing of "race doesn't matter in GITS/this movie", they made Mira's race integral to the conclusion.
MisterNugNug
Member
I'm a fan of GITS and here's what I would have done. If they were dead set on using ScarJo, I would have cast an Asian actress to play the beginning intro of the movie. Had her shell destroyed in the intro action sequence. Then cue the shelling sequence for a new body, the major's new body is ScarJo.
You can fit it into the narrative. The Major is mysterious, only a few people know what Section 9 is let alone who the Major is (or what they look like). The Major had no qualms with putting her shell on the line for the job so her shell changes frequently, so its difficult to pinpoint what she looks like exactly, she remains anonymous and maintains her cover as a member of Section 9. You can also tie this into her character arc, she remains disconnected to her shell since she changes it from time to time and thus struggles with the idea of her own identity/existence.
You can fit it into the narrative. The Major is mysterious, only a few people know what Section 9 is let alone who the Major is (or what they look like). The Major had no qualms with putting her shell on the line for the job so her shell changes frequently, so its difficult to pinpoint what she looks like exactly, she remains anonymous and maintains her cover as a member of Section 9. You can also tie this into her character arc, she remains disconnected to her shell since she changes it from time to time and thus struggles with the idea of her own identity/existence.
navii
My fantasy is that my girlfriend was actually a young high school girl.
The real controversy here is that this movie is not played by a robot. Humanwashing. Also, do you think a Japanese created story should be directed by a Japanese person? They have a way of thinking no one else has. If the director had been Japanese, would it make it easier for a Japanese / Asian lead to be chosen?
I understand Hollywood needs a big name actress for their big budget films, and if they don't make one they won't have one. I understand people's frustration with the "defaults". Watch some Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Indian made movies if you are critical of seeing white people in lead roles, movie industry is not just Hollywood.
Finally, while I am incoherently ranting, I can't help but wonder if a non-Japanese lead was chosen (in part) because of the Chinese market.
Sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone here, just some of my random thoughts.
I understand Hollywood needs a big name actress for their big budget films, and if they don't make one they won't have one. I understand people's frustration with the "defaults". Watch some Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Indian made movies if you are critical of seeing white people in lead roles, movie industry is not just Hollywood.
Finally, while I am incoherently ranting, I can't help but wonder if a non-Japanese lead was chosen (in part) because of the Chinese market.
Sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone here, just some of my random thoughts.
I don't think this would play well. This would just be digging the hole even deeper.
It's evident to me now that there were two choices here.
1) Cast an Asian Actress as Motoko
2) Transplant the entire story to Neo New York and remove all references to the original, basically Edge of Tomorrow strategy. Maybe even drop the GITS name.
Patrick Bateman
Member
About that white washing thing and that people think the filmmakers would make the Asian identity seem less worth than the white identity:
Isn't all the horror that the Major had to go through, especially the transformation to a white woman, done by white industrial people?
I never thought, even at the end of the movie, that being white was the superior or desired thing. It's something negative. And the white people that did it are the baddies. Both Kuze and Major were never "improved" with being transformed into a white identiy.
I don't want to apologize some decisions in the movie, yet I don't really get the massive hate.
Isn't all the horror that the Major had to go through, especially the transformation to a white woman, done by white industrial people?
I never thought, even at the end of the movie, that being white was the superior or desired thing. It's something negative. And the white people that did it are the baddies. Both Kuze and Major were never "improved" with being transformed into a white identiy.
I don't want to apologize some decisions in the movie, yet I don't really get the massive hate.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Please don't dismiss whitewashing as a made up issue in America with that weak humanwashing analogy. When robots gain sentience and call for robot rights and robot American representation, I'll buy it as a real thing. It's not about sticking to the source material 100%. You can cast Scarjo, but don't present her as Motoko Kusanagi, regardless of any sci-fi reasoning for it. Which I thought the movie avoided up until the end.
A Japanese director wouldn't fight for an Asian lead. An Asian American director would. An Asian American director would fight for an Asian in any significant role.
The Asian film industry does not solve Asian representation in America. Those aren't films being screened nationwide. They aren't being pushed in American theaters. I don't see trailers with Asian actors in them before Logan or the next Marvel movie. I can't drive to my nearest theater to see an Asian film. I had to drive out of the city just to catch Train to Busan. And also doesn't remedy the issue of Asian American actors.
Seductivpancakes
Member
Except, I am an Asian American, and I even with all the bull shit in this country of late, I am lucky and proud to be an American. I would Love to see some diversity and representation in the American movie industry.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Samuel L Jackson criticized the casting of British actor Daniel Kaluuya in an American movie about the Black American experience. Asians can't even have that argument yet because even foreign Asian actors don't get put in huge leading roles in American films due to language barrier, thick accent, or worry of subtitles.
lightskintwin
Banned
Not necessarily. Maybe, the right Asian American director might've; but that's a big might. I think a part of the reason you don't have Asian American film stars is because you don't have successful Asian American director's and producer's taking any risks on themselves by casting Asian Americans in leads on their films or focusing on Asian American narratives to potntially break new stars.
Zoe
Member
Exactly, look at the Death Note adaptation: plenty of Asian American power behind it.
I don't know which Asian actress they could have chose for the role. I just know that while Scar Jo was the safe bet at the best box office turn out she was not the right choice for the story/character.this would have been my pick.
my second choice
milkham
Member
Is there a problem in recognizing that the in-text explanation for whitewashing or whatever term you can agree on for what they did, is no absolution for the actual real world casting white washing they did? These works of fiction exist within the context of the real world and are not some stand alone... complex. That script didn't drop from the heavens having motoko's brain transplanted into scarjo's body, someone in our universe, made that choice.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Maggie Q?
lightskintwin
Banned
Well that's the biggest problem is the people defending it are arguing it within a vacuum, and in a vacuum the in film explanation works. Too bad we don't live in a vacuum and there's a real world context that this film exists in.
This is a contradiction, you know that right? Like, you can't insist on ScarJo being "the safe bet" when her "safeness" translated to lackluster domestic sales. At some point you have to admit ScarJo isn't a safe bet anymore?
It's like constantly putting your chips on black because occasionally black pays out, but when it doesn't, you wave it aside with "well it wasn't the right choice that time, but black is still safe".
The entire fucking industry as well as a good portion of movie going audiences have all the "betting" expertise of degenerate gamblers. We don't say "well the gambler doesn't really have a problem, he just made the wrong choice at the time". We say "stop, get some help".
SuperStiltzkin
Member
That's true. It's not a priority for all Asian directors willing to take risks. And telling Asian American stories is a great way to cultivate talent and give people a spotlight. Not just movies, but TV as well. Things are getting there slowly. We have Fresh Off the Boat and Into the Badlands, both of which have a prominently Asian cast and main character.
I think she was the safe bet Coming off Lucy as a stand alone film I think she was.
The movie did horribly because it's an anime adaptation not because of the actors.
lightskintwin
Banned
Yeah, I think you're getting more "woke" Asian Americans who see the problem and will become screenwriters, directors, and producers and will focus on defining themselves in their own narratives. Because right now there is no proven market for Asian American stories and leads, so until somebody proves them wrong, Hollywood will keep repeating there are no Asian American stars or they can't lead big films.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Also, speaking of Into the Badlands, Daniel Wu is American. Born in California. He got his career kickstarted in Asia, but then tried to carry that back to the US. He went back to Asia because he wasn't getting many acting opportunities there.
The lack of three dimensional roles and compelling stories for Asian American actors actually drive them out elsewhere seeking opportunities.
The lack of three dimensional roles and compelling stories for Asian American actors actually drive them out elsewhere seeking opportunities.
I don't mean this to be a very harsh indictment but this is the exact same logic gambling addicts use to justify irrational decisions. Like, "these dice are hot", because they did well during the last roll, so they will do well on the next roll as well.
Instead of looking for nuanced reasons as to why Lucy did well, investors just homed in on ScarJo and said 'well if she can sell Lucy then she can sell GITS". Trying to find simple explanations for complicated phenomena is textbook self-destructive betting behavior.
Which is also the problem with so many privileged people diving head first into these conversations. Their lives reflect the very vacuum that their arguments stand in.
lightskintwin
Banned
I think you're looking at it too deep. It's pretty easy to understand why a studio exec would think a Scarlett led GITS would be a slam dunk after the success of Lucy.
It does drive it home that they did it twice in the exact same way. Like it's part of their guidlines to stick other race people into white bodies. lol
Like they couldn't even make the second guy brown? No? They only do white...
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
so is this movie basically legitimizing Rachel Dolezal or what
yes i've seen it
yes am asian
no i didn't enjoy it
yes i tried
yes am asian
no i didn't enjoy it
yes i tried
Yes it's very easy to understand, but I'm saying it's shortsighted and people should look at it as such, instead of defending it as though the thought process of investors is driven by rationality instead of prejudice.
In a broader context, there's this weird mindset where "that's just business" implies business is intrinsically driven by rational (and therefore fair) decisions. I fail to see how that's true at all, businessmen are as prone to prejudice as everyone else, it's why many significant market crashes happen. And that prejudice is the main reason for critique from myself and others, not the objection to business per se.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
and here i thought hollywood has been serenading chinese (asian) money
... that chick in Independence Day 2 comes to mind
you can't say it makes business sense in one hand and then say it doesnt make business sense in the other hand
cuz ????????
... that chick in Independence Day 2 comes to mind
you can't say it makes business sense in one hand and then say it doesnt make business sense in the other hand
cuz ????????
Not that I know of. Most aren't even worth watching either because they're just really bad movies.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I could be wrong, but my understanding is that people in china would see a japanese actress as being just as foreign as a white actress.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Hu?
Aren't British actors regularly cast in American roles?
I've never seen those Brits as foreign.
Inb4 "OMG, Chinese people look totally different than Japanese people you racist!!
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
i mean, business wise, why not put MORE asian american actors in projects inspired by asian original titles
MAYBE ONES OF CHINESE DESCENT IF THEY WANTS SOME OF THAT CHINA MONI (this part is just to address the weird argument that a specific thing makes sense because of ~*~business reasons~*~........................... but here are a million caveats why it wouldnt make business sense when it favours minority concerns)
i mean since they put white woman as major anyway
like why not put asian american woman as the other woman in the squad
like why
like i dont gets these snubbing of asian american talents
asians in america have a very understandable outcry about being practically deleted or relegated to lesser roles because asian-americans come from various asian roots like china/japan/korea/india/thai/etc but they are basically americans. and yet they dont get legitimate representations in mainstream media produced in their own country.
MAYBE ONES OF CHINESE DESCENT IF THEY WANTS SOME OF THAT CHINA MONI (this part is just to address the weird argument that a specific thing makes sense because of ~*~business reasons~*~........................... but here are a million caveats why it wouldnt make business sense when it favours minority concerns)
i mean since they put white woman as major anyway
like why not put asian american woman as the other woman in the squad
like why
like i dont gets these snubbing of asian american talents
asians in america have a very understandable outcry about being practically deleted or relegated to lesser roles because asian-americans come from various asian roots like china/japan/korea/india/thai/etc but they are basically americans. and yet they dont get legitimate representations in mainstream media produced in their own country.
He had successes over there. Bruce Lee did as well. Back in the 80's Jackie Chan had an easier time breaking into the Japanese market compared to the US and for awhile even abandoned the thought of breaking into the US for some time.
But it's a really complex thing though. There's another thread talking about the subject and how they perceive white people and American asians in Hollywood films. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1357912
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
Japan adores Jackie. Even their Jackie Chan blu-rays are better than HK releases
Better than our own NA releases
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