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[Stinkles]

I have no fucking idea why they would build in a router anyway. I was fapping at the idea of being able to route my 360 through my PS3 for simplicity.

But it has to be said, a router makes way much more sense and is possibly even cheaper than a second HDMI. I wouldn't be surprised if they even removed both HDMIs and made you use a breakout box.


And six USBs is, was and shall be, RETARDED (cost-wise).

Two HDMIs, Six USBs, three gigabit ethernet and all this from a company who still points out gleefully that there's no enough broadband penetration? It was always a big, "whaaaa?"

 

[DCharlie]

"Wasn't their PSX downgraded as well?"

.... don't get me started!

it was more that it shipped with firmware that didn't quite do what they said it would - and then the upgrades didn't come for months and months and months.

oh, and their way of measuring the 12 speed DVD burner was a little off....

 

[sonycowboy]

Wasn't their PSX downgraded as well?

Sort of. The PSX, when launched, did not have all of the "software" features announced. However, since then, they did provide the originally promised functionality. However, in the end, it didn't really matter as the product simply didn't "fit" in the marketplace at the price it was offered at, regardless of the missing funtionality.

DCharlie could probably provide a little more analysis of the PSX situation, though

EDIT: Speak of the devil. :lol

 

[goodcow]

Usefull hate really. Care about your games and forget about the brands.

Oh come on, it'd be hilarious. Ken is such an arrogant fuck, it'd be nice to see his world come crashing down.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Well a common point of debate is that the want the next gen eye toy to be capable of alot more, and in order to accomplish that they need the gigabit speeds... if they keep to that then we'll see at least 2 ports ethernet ports on the PS3.

Is there a firewire port on the PS3?

 

[TTP]

no

 

[DarienA]

Oh come on, it'd be hilarious. Ken is such an arrogant fuck, it'd be nice to see his world come crashing down.

Shit if arrogance was the determining factor in seeing people/company's fall in various industries... most of the world would be in a depression right now...

Then again there are those that will tell you that arrogance is a common trait among the "go getters or movers and shakers" of this world.... and that it's one of the things that drives them to be successful...

 

[Deg]

Pointless really. People buy their routers for home computer use already. Defeats the point of poutting it in.

Oh come on, it'd be hilarious. Ken is such an arrogant fuck, it'd be nice to see his world come crashing down.

If he is arrogant i wonder what Nintendo's and MS's men are? :lol

As of right now PlayStation is one of the most powerful brands in the world ranking alongside things like Nike.

 

[Ranger X]

Oh come on, it'd be hilarious. Ken is such an arrogant fuck, it'd be nice to see his world come crashing down.

Well really, i don't give a shit. My only wish is that the 360 or PS3 becomes popular enough over each other so i can buy the console wich promises me the more choice of games and niche games.

 

[akascream]

Oh come on, it'd be hilarious. Ken is such an arrogant fuck, it'd be nice to see this world come crashing down.

heh fixed

 

[Ruzbeh]

If he is arrogant i wonder what Nintendo's and MS's men are? :lol

Shit if arrogance was the determining factor in seeing people/company's fall in various industries... most of the world would be in a depression right now...

Well, you have to understand that Ken's arrogance is beyond anyone elses, by far. You just can't deny that. "They will have to work more hours" arrogance is pretty incredible. :lol

 

[Turing99]

I'd cut redundant stuff in this order:

1. Ethernet HUB - gone!
2. Second HDMI output

This is all but gone. Even though it's probably not that expensive, a few dollars means millions of dollars with the scale of hardware we're talking about.

3. 4 USB ports
4. 2 memory card slots
5. WIFI basestation

This would probably be next on the chopping block.

6. HDD - gone!
7. Blue-Ray

Technically BRD drive is the most expensive along with CELL. CELL will be expensive until they make new manufacturing processes, and the "expensive at first but will pay off in the end" process Kutaragi was pushing for was also cut.

Because of these two things it will be a miracle if they get it out below 39800 yen. Microsoft will easily beat them in any future pricing war.

There is still a possibility for a "PSX" type device to be released in the future but it's less likely now that Kutaragi is not calling shots.

Realistically Sony would never have been able to release the PS3 as they showed it at E3. It was 100% mainly an effort to muck up MS's debut. It will still be a powerful machine, but it probably won't be standing on level ground with 360 until at least 2007/2008 when the couple MMORPGs and online games start coming out for it.

 

[Stinkles]

Here's an interesting, old, but relevant point.

When Blu Ray players arrive, the ones for early adopters were once expected to cost in the $600+ range - like SACD and DVD-A players.

If the PS3 genuinely does ship with Blu Ray movie functionality, Sony spoils the launch arc for everyone else. They can't sell a console for that much, and other manufacturers can't compete if PS3 is say, $350 with all that other functionality.


How are they going to massage the Blu-Ray group relations?

 

[TTP]

How are they going to massage the Blu-Ray group relations?

 

[kaching]

Threads like this are great demonstrations of how willful ignorance is the cause of so much misinformation. When did Sony say at E3 that the PS3 was going to be a router? GI.biz quotes Phil Harrison DIRECTLY saying, "it can be a hub" and they still get it wrong.

 

[TTP]

Amen dude. Amen.

 

[DCharlie]

well, if it was never said that it would be a router, then it would bring into question this statement :

"Speaking with Japanese publication Nikkei Electronics, Kutaragi said that the original specification for the PS3 would have allowed the system's three Gigabit Ethernet ports to be used as a home router."

ah, never mind, i see you say "At E3" - i wasn't there - so i have no clue! Carry on.

 

[sonycowboy]

Well, you have to understand that Ken's arrogance is beyond anyone elses, by far. You just can't deny that. "They will have to work more hours" arrogance is pretty incredible. :lol

You also have to understand that Sony's current success is unparalled to go along with that arrogance.

Of course, no one ever had a great fall, without first having great success.

"Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall"

 

[Mashing]

Next up on the chopping block, dual HDMI outputs. Defination of a frivilous feature if there ever was one.

 

[monkeymagic]

So it's no longer a router but just a hub?

If it is then that would make sense because the kind of devices connected to it won't need the router functionality (Eyetoy HD, X360, streaming media box etc.) compared with a network of PCs.

 

[sonycowboy]

Here's an interesting, old, but relevant point.

When Blu Ray players arrive, the ones for early adopters were once expected to cost in the $600+ range - like SACD and DVD-A players.

If the PS3 genuinely does ship with Blu Ray movie functionality, Sony spoils the launch arc for everyone else. They can't sell a console for that much, and other manufacturers can't compete if PS3 is say, $350 with all that other functionality.


How are they going to massage the Blu-Ray group relations?

Blu-Ray is going to be pushed, right from the get-go as both a writable and readable format. People are quick to say that DVD has been so successful. However, it did start slow and one of the biggest reasons, was that a DVD player could not fully replace a VCR until recently. And for quite a bit more money.

Adoption for ANY new media format has been quite slow, and while the PS3 will be a HUGE Blu-Ray pusher, I don't think anybody should be expecting that Blu-Ray will be mainstream in 2006. However, in 2007, I think you'll see quite affordable Blu-Ray players, PC's with Blu-Ray drives, and a pretty monster sized library.

None of this guarantees success though, if the studios can't reach some agreement.

 

[Gattsu25]

I can't understand why they said they would have that functionality in the first place.

They didn't. They had already ruled out the capability before E3...this article is several months too late

 

[kaching]

well, if it was never said that it would be a router, then it would bring into question this statement :

"Speaking with Japanese publication Nikkei Electronics, Kutaragi said that the original specification for the PS3 would have allowed the system's three Gigabit Ethernet ports to be used as a home router."

ah, never mind, i see you say "At E3" - i wasn't there - so i have no clue! Carry on.

And that statement was addressed by AndriaSang succinctly in posts 14 and 24 of this thread. Router functionality was one of the features on the drawing board originally, but never made it to an officially released spec for the PS3. This is just Ken filling in the backstory for an interview.

 

[teiresias]

So it's no longer a router but just a hub?

If it is then that would make sense because the kind of devices connected to it won't need the router functionality (Eyetoy HD, X360, streaming media box etc.) compared with a network of PCs.

IF (big IF) we assume the writer of article is articulate enough to know the difference between a router, a hub, and a switch, and IF we assume whomever they talked to at Sony and the translator got all of their router/hub/switch talk correct (since unfortunately people tend to use these interchangeably sometimes regardless of the fact that they are fundamentally different in functionality) then we have the following scenario this article is describing:

1) Sometime before E3 they planned for the PS3 to have an internal router, but prior to E3 that was dropped and the ports now only function as a switch, as they announced at E3. Therefore, nothing is different from the E3 announcments, and the main port goes to your own router (or another switch that's connected to a router, depends on the complexity of your network) and then you can hook up X360, another PC, another switch, whatever, to the other two ports.

However, IF we assume either the article OR the Sony source are liberally using the words router/switch/hub interchangeably (and they're unclear whether the change is something that occurred prior to or after E3) it could mean a couple of things.

1) the same as above
2) the switch functionality has been dropped completely (along with the two extra ethernet ports I'd imagine)

In any case, the key things to remember is that Sony DID NOT announce ROUTER functionality at E3, they announed SWITCH functionality.

 

[KINGMOKU]

So, hold on a sec. Is Sony getting rid of the "fluff that gamers don't want, or need"?


:lol

 

[sonycowboy]

IF (big IF) we assume the writer of article is articulate enough to know the difference between a router, a hub, and a switch, and IF we assume whomever they talked to at Sony and the translator got all of their router/hub/switch talk correct (since unfortunately people tend to use these interchangeably sometimes regardless of the fact that they are fundamentally different in functionality) then we have the following scenario this article is describing:

1) Sometime before E3 they planned for the PS3 to have an internal router, but prior to E3 that was dropped and the ports now only function as a switch, as they announced at E3. Therefore, nothing is different from the E3 announcments, and the main port goes to your own router (or another switch that's connected to a router, depends on the complexity of your network) and then you can hook up X360, another PC, another switch, whatever, to the other two ports.

However, IF we assume either the article OR the Sony source are liberally using the words router/switch/hub interchangeably (and they're unclear whether the change is something that occurred prior to or after E3) it could mean a couple of things.

1) the same as above
2) the switch functionality has been dropped completely (along with the two extra ethernet ports I'd imagine)

In any case, the key things to remember is that Sony DID NOT announce ROUTER functionality at E3, they announed SWITCH functionality.

Good points, but I could almost swear that I heard router during the Sony press conference. Maybe it's more of the incorrect IRC feedings we got when it was going on live (like GTA announced exclusively, Blu-Ray drive being 6x, and each SPE having 256Mb of RAM)

I'll have to listen again, but I also really doubt they used the word "switch" as that's even more specific than either hub or router.

Anyone have to time to listen to it real quick?

 

[Gattsu25]

teiresias: That sounds better. Hell...how many "routers" are really just hubs or switches? With that common misconception and the added translation, they could (and probably are) be talking about the switching that was promised at E3 being removed.

regarding the USB ports...they are used to charge the controllers, right (OPM i believe) so wouldn't they act as 4 controller ports in a sense?

 

[DCharlie]

"each SPE having 256Mb of RAM"

.... ?

Blu-Ray drive being 6x

i've mentioned this before, but given the 12 speed DVD burner in the PSX, we need to know HOW sony are rating this at 6x...

Faf?

 

[teiresias]

I have the Sony E3 PR on my PC and Kuturagi clearly states "two port switching hub" (yet again illustrating the damn hub/switch/router talking confusion).

CLICK HERE to hear KK say what the ports are!

 

[sonycowboy]

regarding the USB ports...they are used to charge the controllers, right (OPM i believe) so wouldn't they act as 4 controller ports in a sense?

That's exactly the intent. For user input (eg controller, keyboard, driving wheel, headset, etc). The back ports are more of a "high-speed" USB 2.0 peripherals kinda stuff I would expect. And this sort of follows on the firewire comments before. USB 2.0 is pretty much an equivalent for firewire nowadays. Not quite as much support for digital video, but other than that, it's even better positioned for other peripherals.

 

[sonycowboy]

.... ?



i've mentioned this before, but given the 12 speed DVD burner in the PSX, we need to know HOW sony are rating this at 6x...

Faf?

DCharlie,

The point was that these were incorrect specs that were typed up in IRC and posted here on GAF during the Sony PC and turned out to be incorrect. The IRC poster mistakenly took Kaz's comment regarding Blu-Ray being ~6x more capacity than DVD and posted that as a drive speed. AFAIK, we haven't gotten anything official regarding the Blu-Ray transfer speed for the PS3.

 

[AndriaSang]

1) Sometime before E3 they planned for the PS3 to have an internal router, but prior to E3 that was dropped and the ports now only function as a switch, as they announced at E3. Therefore, nothing is different from the E3 announcments, and the main port goes to your own router (or another switch that's connected to a router, depends on the complexity of your network) and then you can hook up X360, another PC, another switch, whatever, to the other two ports.

Scenario 1 in teiresias's post is the one that the actual Nikkei article supports.

 

[Lionheart]

This is what I think Ken Kutaragi says at the Sony press conference (at around 17:15 of GameSpot's video):

"To meet higher bandwidth for the next generation, PS3 will have a built-in Gigabit ethernet port with two port switching HUB."

I couldn't hear everything clearly though, but I think this makes sense.

 

[DCharlie]

"The point was that these were incorrect specs that were typed up in IRC and posted here on GAF during the Sony PC and turned out to be incorrect. The IRC poster mistakenly took Kaz's comment regarding Blu-Ray being ~6x more capacity than DVD and posted that as a drive speed. AFAIK, we haven't gotten anything official regarding the Blu-Ray transfer speed for the PS3."

cool. That sounds about right.
Cheers for the clarification.

 

[Truelize]

Second HDMI output: They can't get rid of this. It's not even there deliberately. It's only there because the vid card they were gonna use wasn't working and they switched to the current card and it had this second HDMI output built in so they figured they would let people use it if they could. Future proofing they call it.
It's ridiculous that so many journalists have commented on how amazing the PS3 is because of that second port and only a few of them have commented on how useless it is and how it's not there by choice.

 

[cyberheater]

So is it more PS2.7 or PS2.6 now. I'm not sure...

 

[teiresias]

You know, just because your attempt to troll with your own topic failed because you were late to the party doesn't mean you should start trolling in this topic too.

 

[Gattsu25]

So is it more PS2.7 or PS2.6 now. I'm not sure...

I'd knock it down to a 1.9 if the switching is what was removed or leave it at 3.0 if what was promised at E3 is what we get

currently though, looks like the PSTwo is going to be the only next-gen console from Sony =\

 

[DarienA]

You know, just because your attempt to troll with your own topic failed because you were late to the party doesn't mean you should start trolling in this topic too.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Ponn]

The router, eh nobody will miss it and it is pretty unneeded at this point. As long as it still has wifi built in and can communicate with the PSP that's cool.

You can take the second HDMI output out but please keep the dual screen functionality in some form. I was pretty excited about this and hoping this time someone would actually utilize it. Not just games (though i've been waiting for good utilization of that since the Matrox video cards) but also multimedia functions.

 

[Fafalada]

Second HDMI output: They can't get rid of this. It's not even there deliberately.

I explained this above - the only part that actually adds extra cost to this is the physical port(and I still maintain the cost is more insignificant then claimed), so they can damn right get rid off it anytime they want it they chose to.
If the issue was as you described, PS2 would have shipped with dual video ports as well.

i've mentioned this before, but given the 12 speed DVD burner in the PSX, we need to know HOW sony are rating this at 6x...

Curious, how DID they arrive to 12x, I thought PSX burner was in fact 8x speed?
Anyway, [PR] I am thinking it's an 8x speed BRD [/PR].

Spoiler

BRD native rotational speed 1x is 2x that of a DVD .

 

[DCharlie]

"Curious, how DID they arrive to 12x, I thought PSX burner was in fact 8x speed?"

..... 8x speed of what??

close to an hour to burn a dvd doesn't sound like 8x DVD speed surely?

 

[Nerevar]

2) There is some question regarding this. There is a certain argument going around that the PS3 prototype shown @ E3 was using HDMI type A ports, which might not be able to support 1080p. I haven't seen anything definative regarding HMDI type A not supporting 1080p, but there are a couple of sites out there that make this claim and since, we've essentially never had 1080p content before, and there are no sets that take 1080p input, it's kind of hard to know for sure.

In any case, I think it's pretty definitive that the PS3 will have 1080p output by virtue of Kaz making such a big deal about and also the fact that the PS3 will be a Blu-Ray player.

I think the issue is the framerate. Movies will be stored in 1080p/24 (as that is the production format - realize this and 1080p/30 are the only 1080p formats in the ATSC spec, so a true HDTV might not even accept a 1080p/60 signal). I believe HDMI/A can handle this resolution/framerate. The controversy comes when people debate 1080p/30 or 1080p/60. I don't think HDMI/A has the capacity to handle that amount of data, but I could be wrong. There are a lot of people that say you can "trick" the system into playing back full-frame data at 60 fps transmitted using the 1080i/60 format that IS in the ATSC table 3 format list, but this requires more or less "intelligently" encoding the data as well. Regardless, don't expect a 1080p image at 60 fps on your new HDTV anytime in the next generation. At best, 1080p data will be at 30 fps, no more.

 

[sonycowboy]

I explained this above - the only part that actually adds extra cost to this is the physical port(and I still maintain the cost is more insignificant then claimed), so they can damn right get rid off it anytime they want it they chose to.
If the issue was as you described, PS2 would have shipped with dual video ports as well.

Can someone with a knowledge of these kinds of things answer a question.

It would seem that multiple ports of a given kind are trivial cost components. Once you have a shared bus like USB 2.0, adding ports doesn't require any significant internal work. It's just the physical ports tying into the existing I/O board. Same for media card readers (look how cheap those damn things are, just at retail. I can buy one of those 8-1 readers for like $5). The same is true for Ethernet as well.

I question the number of ports the same as everyone else as it just seems like it's going to confuse the hell out of your normal consumer, but the thought that these are going to add any significant cost (even $1 per additional port) just doesn't seem realistic. These guys scrutinize the number of screws, the case molding, latches, etc and to think that they're just throwing signficant money on these ports is suspect.

 

[cyberheater]

Look. All it needs is a standard vid output (component/s-vid/scart) / Wifi and wireless pads.
The rest is stupid and un-needed by 99.99999% of the population and adds to cost.

 

[Stinkles]

Second HDMI output: They can't get rid of this. It's not even there deliberately.

That would be true if they were literally using nVidia off the shelf PCI cards, but they're not. nVidia is building them a solution that will sit on the Sony board, in a PS3.

If you're suggesting Sony and nVidia can't reduce parts, clutter, extraneous outs from the graphics core, then that would be a first. And even if a second physical, unused HDMI port cost pennies, it would still be a very significant cost.

 

[kaching]

...and all this from a company who still points out gleefully that there's no enough broadband penetration?

Still? Where - links? Kaz Hirai has been too busy trotting out his air conditioner analogy in every interview (i.e. like AC in cars, network connectivity used to be a nice to have feature but is now becoming absolutely essential) to talk down broadband penetration.

 

[Gattsu25]

Look. All it needs is a standard vid output (component/s-vid/scart) / Wifi and wireless pads.
The rest is stupid and un-needed by 99.99999% of the population and adds to cost.

I'd rather have a company bleed $500 per console and give m hard earned $300 more value...I'm selfish like that :b

 

[sonycowboy]

Regardless, don't expect a 1080p image at 60 fps on your new HDTV anytime in the next generation. At best, 1080p data will be at 30 fps, no more.

I just love these declarations Let's close up the shop boys. GAF decided it ain't happening

I'm mostly kidding and, while it's certainly true that 1080p will likely not find any level of significant adoption in the next several years, it's an exaggeration to say that "we won't see it anytime in the next generation". Cutting edge A/V folks and gamers are very likely to see it, just not in the absolute immediate future and initially, it ain't going to be cheap.

 

[urk]

Arguing semantics misses the point here. It really doesn't matter whether they removed a hub, a switch, or a router, the fact is that Sony held up a product with a wide smile, trying to stymie some of the momentum Microsoft was trying to generate, and it turns out that these "features" that they listed have not even been evaluated in terms of production cost. I would be very surprised if this was the only feature to be shed to save Sony some bucks.