N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
oh my god don't start, that conversation drove me nuts. Jason's hemming and hawing after saying he played it and enjoyed it seems so incredibly pedantic.
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Giant Bomb #17 | Baby Dan Wyckert
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oh my god don't start, that conversation drove me nuts. Jason's hemming and hawing after saying he played it and enjoyed it seems so incredibly pedantic.
It was quite annoying, and I was surprised it was coming from him. He's not the type of person that I would expect to make the childish game length=value argument.
CoolBatteryCharge
Member
That seriously just blew my mind.
There's a PS4 app so I guess I could try that.
Game length=value has merit in my book if you go over a certain price. For as much as I liked that game, if it was $20 I would've felt it was way too expensive for what I got out of it. The price as it is is fine though.
Jason sounded like he found it interesting. Jeff maybe not so much.
stump sock
Member
in my opinion it's less about the length than it is the amount of satisfaction. I don't think it was as clever as it wanted itself to be and the 90 minutes or so it took to play somehow even seemed overkill
It sounded more like a value=value argument. He didn't come off like he enjoyed it at all, more like he thought it was "interesting." It sounds more like a visual essay on game design (and being a game designer) than anything else, and I wouldn't want to pay $8-10 for somebody's essay either. He compared it directly to a 90 minute movie and didn't compare it favorably. That has nothing to do with the length.
This is the summary of the game on Steam, copied and pasted:
Kinda seems like Jason ordered a filet mignon and complained when he got a steak. I can't imagine how he was let down in any way going off of what expectations the game is setting.
Because, as he said, he didn't relate to the story.
He didn't think it was very good. From the sounds of it, the story alone was not enough to make it a worthwhile purchase. Compared to a movie, which is also just a story, it just doesn't compete.
Hence, he doesn't think you should pay $10 for it if you don't think it would touch you in any meaningful way. He doesn't fucking love the thing, the end. It doesn't have to be about length or anything you can disagree with.
He didn't think it was very good. From the sounds of it, the story alone was not enough to make it a worthwhile purchase. Compared to a movie, which is also just a story, it just doesn't compete.
Hence, he doesn't think you should pay $10 for it if you don't think it would touch you in any meaningful way. He doesn't fucking love the thing, the end. It doesn't have to be about length or anything you can disagree with.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I think you're parsing his words in a very different way, but none of us are him so we can't say. But I didn't get the impression he didn't think it was good enough to warrant the price.
I have a number of X360 games that attest to the fact that I have the same problem. I was going to say that I'm trying to be choosier with my PS4 games, but I've only really played 3 of the 6 games I own. The other threes got played once and put away.
I endorse this 100%.
The reason I give Jason some slack on this is that The Stanley Parable was a really good game. It's hard to blame him for thinking that The Beginner's Guide doesn't live up to that standard.
Maybe. That's how I came away from it though, that he thought it was a neat thing he couldn't necessarily recommend everybody buy. I didn't get the impression that he thought it was bad, but he wasn't blown away by it and his reaction when Jeff suggested a movie being similar was "I get more out of a movie of the same length"
Yeah. I just relistened to it, and I'm half wrong (but not completely). He says multiple times that it's interesting and he enjoyed it and people should play it to see for themselves, but he said the price tag rubbed him the wrong way because it's "such a personal thing, like a long diary entry". Which...I can't really agree with him on at all, since so many examples of art are strictly personal. Albums, paintings, film, etc, all can be incredibly stripped down and personal, that doesn't mean they are of less worth than anything else.
Granted, he didn't argue his point too hard and you could tell he himself knew it wasn't fully fleshed out, but I can't say I agree with what he said.
Listening to it again because I'm bored, Jason says of the game that "I think it's super interesting. I think many of the points that it touched on is just a brief glimpse, I don't think a lot of loops got closed, but it's open to interpretation... I guess know going in that it's an hour and a half, it's very linear. But there's some very thought-provoking things that happen. I'm glad I played it, but it didn't resonate with me as much as I thought it was going to... And I'd heard that it maybe dealt with social anxiety and depression, and I was a little anxious of playing the game because I suffer from the same things, but it's really not. It wasn't trying to help you understand those kind of afflictions, it was kind of a side note."
When I first heard it I thought it was a pretty good discussion of the game from two people who weren't that big fans after having played it like me and a lot of other people. I agree that the diary thing wasn't the most fleshed out thought Jason's had, but he seemed to realize that as he was saying it and seemed to concede that it was probably him that wasn't really used to games that are this non-interactive.
When I first heard it I thought it was a pretty good discussion of the game from two people who weren't that big fans after having played it like me and a lot of other people. I agree that the diary thing wasn't the most fleshed out thought Jason's had, but he seemed to realize that as he was saying it and seemed to concede that it was probably him that wasn't really used to games that are this non-interactive.
Glitchesarecool
Member
If Transformers hadn't come out this year I'd be inclined to agree.
Show your evidence, Mr. Wright.
Edit: Besides maybe Witcher 3, I can't think of any other competitors. I guess Hotline Miami 2?
Hot Coldman
Banned
The Transformers OST is the worst Platinum buttrock soundtrack by a wide margin. Needs the ridiculous vocal tracks of Anarchy Reigns and Revengeance.
(unless I haven't been linked to the right stuff)
That's pretty good but in a world where Hotline Miami 2 came out in 2015 I can't allow this.
The vast majority of us haven't heard Yoshi Woolly World's soundtrack, so no decision can be made yet.
Hot Coldman
Banned
licensed soundtracks are cheating
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
We can only hope that this year's best soundtrack discussion has another Donkey Kong Country Returns moment
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
i dunno, i've played short games that i love to death and long games that i loved to death, too. I feel it's less that length = value so much as good pacing and design above all. A good story can help, too, but that's just icing on the cake really
It's why i can love MGSV and The Fall almost equally even though MGSV took me 20 times as long to finish. It's not about length, it's about what you do with it.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Absolutely. I put over 100 hours into MGS5 and loved 99% of it. I've also played 6-hour games that I felt like wasted my time for half the runtime. The thing that put me off Alien Isolation is that everyone agrees it's like a 6-8 hour game stretched over 20 hours. I have zero interest in that shit. It's not that I don't have the time, it's that I want actual entertainment value out of the time I put into games.
giant_frying_pan
Member
I loved the Splatoon soundtrack. It got me dancing to it more often than not.
When people talk about value here, I'm taking it to at least partly mean price. I too enjoy short games as much as long games, Undertale and MGSV are my two favourite games of the year. But I still think there's something to be said of length=value in terms of there being an upper limit of what I'm willing to pay for a game that's 3 hours long. Even if I thought MGSV and The Fall were equally good games I wouldn't be willing to pay $60 for The Fall, but I was willing to pay that for MGSV.
Maybe I'm part of the problem.
stump sock
Member
As somebody who deals with a variety of emotional issues as well as the internal pressures of "creation," I'm more let down by the fact that Beginners does the narrative version of going around a planet and then breaking orbit instead of actually landing.
Maybe it's more profound to people who don't live in that headspace their whole lives.
Meanwhile, undertale, which I bought at the same time, actually hits the emotional notes I was promised.
Maybe it's more profound to people who don't live in that headspace their whole lives.
Meanwhile, undertale, which I bought at the same time, actually hits the emotional notes I was promised.
CoolBatteryCharge
Member
broncobuster
Banned
In the last Mario Maker stream were they playing community levels or am I mixing it up with UPF?
I ran across a handful of crazy Mario Maker levels. Folks developed a functioning password system to mitigate the lack of checkpoints.
I ran across a handful of crazy Mario Maker levels. Folks developed a functioning password system to mitigate the lack of checkpoints.
I wonder if they'll stick to the same plan for designing the level this week.
You're mixing it up with UPF. Last Mario Maker stream was them making a level with help from the community, this will be that too.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
speaking of MGSV, this same debate was incredibly hot when they tried to sell Ground Zeroes for $40, which i dont give a flying fuck how they tried to justify that it was nonsense even if what was there was a good game.
So i understand the argument that there is some value to a game's length. It's just that often it's used to criticize indie and lower budget games and used as a means of putting them down, like when plenty of folks here on gaf that shat on Gone Home as an example. Indie games are often shorter, yes, but they're also often cheaper, too. just have the right expectations in mind is all.
I kinda look at it like jeff does: A 90-120 minute film would cost me +$10 to check out, so if something like The Order nets me 5-6 hours of decent gameplay for $20 i'm alright with it.
SandwichMeat
Member
Haha all this discussion and interpretation of Jason's thoughts on the Beginners Guide is like listening to Davey talk about Coda's games
I can understand where you're coming from. As for me, as a person who grew up with like, no money, the longer a game was the more inherent value it had to me even if the quality fell throughout, and that mindset had carried into now, when I do have some money. If I had infinite money, or if games didn't cost anything, then I can purely evaluate my satisfaction of game by what it provides, but that's unfortunately not the case. So length does play some factor in the "satisfaction" I get from a game, for example I felt like I overpaid for Gone Home (it's more of a $10 game to me) since it didn't really resonate with me, but if it was a few hours longer I'd be able to overlook it for still keeping me occupied and not spend money on the next game.
Yeah for sure, I'm with you there. I've been getting way more enjoyment out of indie games than AAA games the last few years, so I'm not trying to put down indie games. I'd be willing to pay $60 for The Witness for example, and the same for No Man's Sky (although the term "indie" has lost all meaning with that one).
Who is Davey? It's a Youtuber, isn't it? Get off my lawn!
Who about what now?
The Dear Leader
Banned
Not sure if it's been posted here, but here's a bundle of 10 games that includes Contradiction for a mere $5. DO IT FOR JENKS PLS
http://www.bundlestars.com/all-bundles/killer-bundle-5/
http://www.bundlestars.com/all-bundles/killer-bundle-5/
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
See although I don't have that same mindset, this is a lot more honest than most arguments about how game X should be cheaper than it is because of Y. Where Y is usually some kind of argument like "it's an indie game/it looks cheap/it's too personal" or some nonsense. Saying you want a certain amount of hour value out of your dollar, while I don't subscribe to it personally, is entirely reasonable.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Move the fuck over, Lockdown
CoolBatteryCharge
Member
Keyser Soze
Member
Dish of the Day is a dirtier song that Afternoon Delight.
I've been much happier since I applied this like of thought to video games as well.
Careful...
Keyser Soze
Member
Dan wearing Patrick's shirt is like the time Punk wore Stone Cold's shirt on RAW.
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