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Giant Bomb 18: Everything is always a surprise on some level

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yami4ct

Member
I can see what you like from Dark Souls' take on level design but I'd rather the really unique and intense variety that Demon's Souls gave.

There's nothing like the immensity and claustrophobia of Stonefang Tunnels. We don't really get the long and daunting trek all across the King's Path of Boletaria. Latria is still unrivaled in its horror (THAT FUCKING HEART BEAT). We don't get the incredibly unique and quirky bosses of Demon's either. People call out Dark Souls 2 bosses all the time but I felt *that* about the Dark Souls 1 bosses. Demon's Souls has fewer sure but each are insanely unique aside from *one* and even then that specific boss is at the very end of the most oppressive and difficult level in the game. We've yet to get another oppressive and monstrous boss like Storm King with that crazy sound design blowing out your speakers.

edit: It's telling when the level people remember the most from Dark Souls is the one that is specifically detached and isolated so that it doesn't have to "fit" with the rest of the world.

I get what you're saying and it's a matter of taste, but for me nothing beats some of the moments that came from the connected feeling of DS1. Finally getting down to the Tomb of the Giants and the realization of 'holy shit this has been under my feet this entire time'. Getting to the end and being able to envision your trip from the Undead Parish all the way down to Lost Izalith. Nothing feels like that. It's such a real feeling world because of tis connectivity.

It also leads to moments of just wandering into a boss fight, something you can't really replicate in discrete levels. One of my favorite moments in probably all gaming happened because of that. Your wandering down the side of a mountain and you see this little forest offset. Wandering into it you all of a sudden see this giant stream of water as you agro a giant boss and in the distance you see this massive Hydra coming out of a lake. Nothing really else in gaming has felt like that. It's this mix of terror and excitement that only Dark Souls can really bring and it would've been lessened a ton if the world was disconnected with hubs.
 
It's weird. Thinking back, a game like Halo 3 was just fun to play. I guess after successive games with progress, like Battlefield and CoD just..I dunno, had a conditioning affect to it? Even games like Demons Souls where you could progress and show your power online helped in that. It's definitely weird.

But even then....I dunno. Battlefield just felt shallow when I played the beta.

Yeah Battlefront definitely felt shallow, but that's almost what I liked about it.

I think the problem is, they dangle a LITTLE bit of progression in front of you, but there isn't enough. So you expect more but it's kind of lame.

If they had everything unlocked from the beginning you just go in to play the game. You're not expecting to be drawn in by a progression system.
 

hamchan

Member
So my playtime for Fallout 4 just overtook my playtime for the Witcher 3. Despite being more personally invested in the Witcher story (I've played through the first two games and even read a few Witcher novels) and recognizing that it's much better written than FO4, I think I just really like the gameplay of FO4 much more.

Plus I feel you can control the pacing of FO4 more than you can in TW3. You can speed through the main story in 10-15 hours like what Drew did in FO3 or you can totally immerse yourself in the world and explore every inch for one hundred hours. Meanwhile with TW3 it feels slow paced even just focusing on the main story, at least to me anyways.

So I can relate to the guys when they don't feel like they can even finish TW3. I will eventually but I'm not addicted to it like I am FO4 where I'm playing 12 hours a day just continuously seeing new things and making dudes head's explode into a bloody mess with my high damage rifle.
 
So my playtime for Fallout 4 just overtook my playtime for the Witcher 3. Despite being more personally invested in the Witcher story (I've played through the first two games and even read a few Witcher novels) and recognizing that it's much better written than FO4, I think I just really like the gameplay of FO4 much more.

Plus I feel you can control the pacing of FO4 more than you can in TW3. You can speed through the main story in 10-15 hours like what Drew did in FO3 or you can totally immerse yourself in the world and explore every inch for one hundred hours. Meanwhile with TW3 it feels slow paced even just focusing on the main story, at least to me anyways.

So I can relate to the guys when they don't feel like they can even finish TW3. I will eventually but I'm not addicted to it like I am FO4 where I'm playing 12 hours a day just continuously seeing new things and making dudes head's explode into a bloody mess with my high damage rifle.

Also, you don't spend 95% of the sidequests in Fo4 investigating things.

I liked TW3 a whole bunch but man I got tired of holding L for my sidequests.
 

justjim89

Member
So my playtime for Fallout 4 just overtook my playtime for the Witcher 3. Despite being more personally invested in the Witcher story (I've played through the first two games and even read a few Witcher novels) and recognizing that it's much better written than FO4, I think I just really like the gameplay of FO4 much more.

Plus I feel you can control the pacing of FO4 more than you can in TW3. You can speed through the main story in 10-15 hours like what Drew did in FO3 or you can totally immerse yourself in the world and explore every inch for one hundred hours. Meanwhile with TW3 it feels slow paced even just focusing on the main story, at least to me anyways.

So I can relate to the guys when they don't feel like they can even finish TW3. I will eventually but I'm not addicted to it like I am FO4 where I'm playing 12 hours a day just continuously seeing new things and making dudes head's explode into a bloody mess with my high damage rifle.

I don't see myself passing the 120 hour mark with FO4 for quite some time, but it is a hell of a game. I just finished Taking the Castle in full power armor with a shotgun that deals explosive damage and really felt like a badass.
Plus I got into a full romance with Piper at the end of it.

Missed the Klepolalypse ending. Dan needs to realize that giving a lame underperforming youtuber attention is just giving him what he wants. He'll play shitty Mario Maker levels all day every day for the views. The only way to win is to not acknowledge.

Love you Scoops. Deep dish pizza represent.
 

Lelcar

Member
On Fallout 4: Yeah, there's so much going on at all times, it's very impressive, everyone has something to say about everything and there's so much possibility and combinations for anything to occur.

But man, how does anyone get anything done in Fallout? On my way to a mission I'll check a building that I pass just to see what's up and then it ends up exploring this one place takes 3 hours and I then meet a guy who has another quest for me. And then I'm like I really should complete the quest I'm on already, but this guy says that his quest is just around the corner. Ok well if it's just around the corner... more hours later. Oh, I need to get back to my settlement and then go back to Diamond City to sell stuff. Oh, what's this? Goodneighbor? Let's see what's in here. 50 quests later... I'm sinking into a neverending void of things to do in Fallout an d i c a n 't e s c a p e . . .
 
On Fallout 4: Yeah, there's so much going on at all times, it's very impressive, everyone has something to say about everything and there's so much possibility and combinations for anything to occur.

But man, how does anyone get anything done in Fallout? On my way to a mission I'll check a building that I pass just to see what's up and then it ends up exploring this one place takes 3 hours and I then meet a guy who has another quest for me. And then I'm like I really should complete the quest I'm on already, but this guy says that his quest is just around the corner. Ok well if it's just around the corner... more hours later. Oh, I need to get back to my settlement and then go back to Diamond City to sell stuff. Oh, what's this? Goodneighbor? Let's see what's in here. 50 quests later... I'm sinking into a neverending void of things to do in Fallout an d i c a n 't e s c a p e . . .

It gets a bit overwhelming at times! Especially when you're in the city, the density of landmarks on your compass is insane. It seems like every two feet there's something new to explore, and I've been super careful about not going too far down any exploration rabbit holes.
 

Jintor

Member
Luckily a lot of them are 'these six rooms have eight raiders in it' and you can clear the whole thing. Sometimes.

I really like exploring in (modern) Fallout games. Not so much in Elder Scrolls.

...but the dialogue system, like, really blows this time around. I liked NV too much :T
 
On Fallout 4: Yeah, there's so much going on at all times, it's very impressive, everyone has something to say about everything and there's so much possibility and combinations for anything to occur.

But man, how does anyone get anything done in Fallout? On my way to a mission I'll check a building that I pass just to see what's up and then it ends up exploring this one place takes 3 hours and I then meet a guy who has another quest for me. And then I'm like I really should complete the quest I'm on already, but this guy says that his quest is just around the corner. Ok well if it's just around the corner... more hours later. Oh, I need to get back to my settlement and then go back to Diamond City to sell stuff. Oh, what's this? Goodneighbor? Let's see what's in here. 50 quests later... I'm sinking into a neverending void of things to do in Fallout an d i c a n 't e s c a p e . . .

I'm 20 hours in

still haven't gone to the main city

something like that I suppose
 
Luckily a lot of them are 'these six rooms have eight raiders in it' and you can clear the whole thing. Sometimes.

I really like exploring in (modern) Fallout games. Not so much in Elder Scrolls.

...but the dialogue system, like, really blows this time around. I liked NV too much :T

Yeah, I think my favorite part about the Fallout games is just picking a cardinal direction on a whim and just wandering around to see what it has to offer me. 4 didn't really click with me until I decided to start doing that instead of what the game was telling me to do.

And yeah, the dialogue system sucks for the exact reasons everybody thought it would suck.
 
I mean, I get that these are the times we live in, but that's a depressing sentence to read.

It's this weird sort of "lasting appeal" that's counted in dozens of hours rather than hundreds. Basically, "Will the game keep me entertained until the next big game is released?" rather than "Will I be playing this game two years from now?".
 
Hehe
https://twitter.com/Fobwashed/status/666489603608580096
Ann1ZP5.gif
 

yami4ct

Member
So wait, what was the rooster teeth controversy?

Basically on a RT podcast they were talking about Fallout 4 reviews. One of the people on there complained about reviews giving a low score because of technical issues claiming they were just doing it for attention. They even said something like 'you're not special'. Another guest specially called out Jeff.

The discussion was real dumb. It's probably best ignored.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Someone on a podcast or something said Jeff gave Fallout 4 3/5 to get attention.


Basically on a RT podcast they were talking about Fallout 4 reviews. One of the people on there complained about reviews giving a low score because of technical issues claiming they were just doing it for attention. They even said something like 'you're not special'. Another guest specially called out Jeff.

The discussion was real dumb. It's probably best ignored.

Ah alright. That sounds really dumb.
 
A shame that they really wanted to sell you a season pass at launch. The game is fun to play but it's just way too bare bones for 60 bucks.

I know it's a bit of a dick thing to do but I kinda just wanna buy the game on the weekend, play it for a day and ask for a refund. Check out all the stages and what have you.
 

Joeku

Member
Yo, I just finished Tales from the Borderlands. That game is really fucking good. Somehow the Telltale formula met comedic timing and made a cute video game baby. Damn.
 

def sim

Member
I know it's a bit of a dick thing to do but I kinda just wanna buy the game on the weekend, play it for a day and ask for a refund. Check out all the stages and what have you.

If it makes you feel any better, I'll likely be asking for a refund later tonight. Origin's 24 hour guarantee is a life saver here. I thought this was something I'd like well enough on PC that I can deal with $40, but it's just not worth it to me even at a lower price point. I'm going to use up the remaining 3 hours on my ea access thing and move on.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
I mean, I get that these are the times we live in, but that's a depressing sentence to read.
It's plain wrong. Think about what the most successful multiplayer games are and most of them don't have a CoD-style progression system. I guess they're used to the mp of yearly-releasing titles. But even with those, sports games being the biggest ones, don't have that unless you want to (ultimate team).

It's this weird sort of "lasting appeal" that's counted in dozens of hours rather than hundreds. Basically, "Will the game keep me entertained until the next big game is released?" rather than "Will I be playing this game two years from now?".
It's the difference between making a good game (in the traditional sense) and a good product.
 
It's plain wrong. Think about what the most successful multiplayer games are and most of them don't have a CoD-style progression system. I guess they're used to the mp of yearly-releasing titles. But even with those, sports games being the biggest ones, don't have that unless you want to (ultimate team).

Sports games?

I would say a better metric to compare Battlefront to is other shooters, not sports games. CoD, Battlefield, even CS:GO is a better comparison than sports games. CS:GO especially, seeing as how it consistently tends to rank extremely high on active players. All of these games have a sort of progression, whether it's random drops or unlocking stuff incrementally. There is something to strive for.

Heck, that's probably why in part Destiny is so damn successful despite the hiccups Bungie has had. Something to work towards. Sense of progression.

Battlefront, has some unlocking. But it's extremely shallow. Different grenades, long distance rifles...all the games fire alike and offer no real diversity amongst them, other than RoF, accuracy...they all just seem alike. I'm not saying it's this lack of progression that is the reason why Battlefront is scoring low, but it's one of the reasons why.

If you're going to offer a multiplayer only game, then you better provide something that can fulfill the player over a long stretch of time for playing it.
 

AcridMeat

Banned
All of the good word of mouth for Tales from the Borderlands makes me want to pick it up. Is it new characters are do they focus on established ones?

Also I just finished watching Back to the Future 1 for the first time in years, how was that Telltale game?
 

Anjin M

Member
I finally rolled up the last few quests in The Witcher 3. The combat was never great, but I was able to make it work without trying too hard. And that story was just the best. Did some reading after the fact and I was surprised how differently it could go.

And I'm glad they dumped me back in the world to finish up side quests. In my rush to see the ending, I skipped the DLC.

Well, off to bed. Have to get a few hours sleep before work.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Sports games?

I would say a better metric to compare Battlefront to is other shooters, not sports games. CoD, Battlefield, even CS:GO is a better comparison than sports games. CS:GO especially, seeing as how it consistently tends to rank extremely high on active players. All of these games have a sort of progression, whether it's random drops or unlocking stuff incrementally. There is something to strive for.

Heck, that's probably why in part Destiny is so damn successful despite the hiccups Bungie has had. Something to work towards. Sense of progression.

Battlefront, has some unlocking. But it's extremely shallow. Different grenades, long distance rifles...all the games fire alike and offer no real diversity amongst them, other than RoF, accuracy...they all just seem alike. I'm not saying it's this lack of progression that is the reason why Battlefront is scoring low, but it's one of the reasons why.
Dan specifically said "any multiplayer-focused game". And why I arrived at sports games is in the post. I've also never heard anyone count random gameplay agnostic drops as a progression system. CS:GO is the compelete counter argument to that sentence.
If you're going to offer a multiplayer only game, then you better provide something that can fulfill the player over a long stretch of time for playing it.
Like...good gameplay maybe? If anything, a too meaningful progression system actively works against a game you want to play years later. When all the prestiging and unlocking is done and what's left isn't interesting, there will be no players left.
 
If you're going to offer a multiplayer only game, then you better provide something that can fulfill the player over a long stretch of time for playing it.
The actual mechanics and environment of the game? It's fine if people don't find Battlefront's gameplay engaging but just because it doesn't have loads of unlocks and customization and noises and pictures and prestige doesn't mean it can't sustain itself on just being a fun game. How was any shooter before COD successful and beloved?

I'd be very surprised if Battlefront fell off a cliff in terms of player population any time soon. If anything, it's extremely refreshing.
 
Battlefront seems to suffer from the weapons all being too samey while also being "easy to learn, not hard to master".

It's that, and that...I dunno, yeah the presentation is nice, but picking up power ups for ships...the weapons all feeling samey(Battlefront had great weapon diversity that wasn't attached to a limited 'card' system)...I dunno. The reason why Battlefront worked was because the factions played differently from each other. If you were a droid, even a footsoldier droid was completely different from a clone trooper. There is no differentiation like that in this incarnation of it, aside from the ships and heroes. Everything plays the same. It's....

....Battlefront, the original ones I can go back to and have a good time. I can be a roly poly droid, or a heavy droid, and spend a good amount of time playing each one because of how different they play. There's none of that in DICE's battlefront. I can't be a wookie for the rebels who always has a crossbow.

I dunno, I'm very negative on this incarnation of battlefront. It's just...a shallow sequel.

Dan specifically said "any multiplayer-focused game". And why I arrived at sports games is in the post. I've also never heard anyone count random gameplay agnostic drops as a progression system. CS:GO is the compelete counter argument to that sentence.

Like...good gameplay maybe? If anything, a too meaningful progression system actively works against a game you want to play years later. When all the prestiging and unlocking is done and what's left isn't interesting, there will be no players left.

Those sports games you mentioned tend to have a robust single player. That's the difference between those and Battlefront. I brought up CS:GO because that drop system is an added thing to strive for, not dependent of gameplay.

And good gameplay...again, Battlefront is shallow. The hours I played of it, it's not promising.

The actual mechanics and environment of the game? It's fine if people don't find Battlefront's gameplay engaging but just because it doesn't have loads of unlocks and customization and noises and pictures and prestige doesn't mean it can't sustain itself on just being a fun game. How was any shooter before COD successful and beloved?

I'd be very surprised if Battlefront fell off a cliff in terms of player population any time soon. If anything, it's extremely refreshing.

Fun is subjective. I can't tell you 'It's not fun, stop having fun.', just like you can't tell me 'No it's fun, this is fun, the noises and graphics make it fun.' I can however offer my experience with previous games like it, and then judge it by those merits, and my conclusion is that it's a shallow game.

And Progression doesn't make a game fun by itself. Like, good examples of that are League of Legends and DotA, where there is no real 'progression' aside from your skill. (Less so for League due to how they handle unlocks, and more so for DotA since everythings unlocked.) The progressions they both offer though, are an incentive to keep along with the game.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I would totally play Battlefront if it had the squad mechanics from Battlefield. But none of my friends (including me) are interested in the game without it.


Zipfer and Gösser are both great. I am into Hirter Hemp beer lately... My grandpa worked at Puntigamer but I can't stand it... :D

Hirter is alright, don't like Puntigamer either. It's for Steirer what Ottakringer is for Wiener.
 

derFeef

Member
I would totally play Battlefront if it had the squad mechanics from Battlefield. But none of my friends (including me) are interested in the game without it.

Yeah it's a shame about the squads. They changed it frm the beta though that you at least can see your buddies in the game.

Hirter is alright, don't like Puntigamer either. It's for Steirer what Ottakringer is for Wiener.

Good analogy!
 
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