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[yami4ct]

The game encourages stealth. The game encourages running up to dudes and stabbing them in the face. The game encourages any mixture of these two. So do you think the game would have been better without the ability to just waste fools willy nilly if you so desire?

Because that is great stress relief in Dishonored. The first-person murder animations are really good.

For what it's worth, I believe the same thing Noaloha does about the game: it was designed that you'd stealth until you get caught and then go on a stabbing spree for ten seconds then try to sneak again. Because of the mission select and relative speed of going through the game multiple times, I did just that on my first playthrough, then did an all stealth run, then replayed some levels to find neat routes and tried to all-ghost the thing. It allows for that and for this crazy shit: https://youtu.be/u3vsXDJ9kCE?t=12s

Why do you need the game to say "good job, you were stealthy" keeping in mind it does do that? At the end of every mission, it tells you whether you were seen or not. There are achievements associated with this too. What else do you need?


I don't know why I assumed that they wouldn't talk about MotN on Designer Notes. Does Andersen come into the conversation?

When you give your character godly powers, you lose what makes stealth stealth for me. Full stop. There's no out of direct gameplay way to fix that. All the tension of stealth is dead.

They did it.

THEY DID IT.

It sounds like exactly the type of game I'd dig. Consider it added to the wishlist. I won't be able to check it out too soon, but I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[Bowlie]

The Christmas forecast where I live in Florida:

*

Fuck this.

It's midnight here:

So we'll have similar experiences!

 

[Megasoum]

The Christmas forecast where I live in Florida:

Fuck this.

It's gonna be 66F (17C) up here in Montréal Canada tomorrow! lol

 

[santeesioux]

I dug out a several year old issue of Game Informer and saw multiple pictures of Dan and a review of Persona 4 Arena by Jason. It's weird looking back at that old stuff before you really knew who these people were.

 

[Joeku]

When you give your character godly powers, you lose what makes stealth stealth for me. Full stop. There's no out of direct gameplay way to fix that. All the tension of stealth is dead.

Do you mean godly as in "magical" or godly as in "overpowered"?

 

[yami4ct]

Do you mean godly as in "magical" or godly as in "overpowered"?

Overpowered in general. Magic tends to lean that direction, but it can be used in a way that works. I don't think the flash step in Dishonored for instance is inherently a bad idea.

 

[Myggen]

I dug out a several year old issue of Game Informer and saw multiple pictures of Dan and a review of Persona 4 Arena by Jason. It's weird looking back at that old stuff before you really knew who these people were.

Oh, so Jason actually wrote a few reviews for GI? He was probably their fighting game guy.

 

[Noaloha]

The cascading stealth fail-states in MGSV arguably border on magical, initially at least, assuming you engage with bullet-time-oh-shit-I-done-fucked systems and wizard-balloon exploitation.

edit: and as a counter and additional to the above discussion, Invisible Inc only ever punishes you for failing stealth (on 'easy' modes even if just "you have one less get out of jail free card" - it just gives you multiple ways to mitigate a failure's impact.

 

[Incandenza]

I think The Last of Us (on Hard/Survivor difficulty) solves the stealth power problem pretty well. You have the tools to shoot your way out of a situation if you fuck up, but you just don't have the resources to make a habit of it. There's a lot of good "oh shit" moments when you get caught and you have to start popping off.

Grounded difficulty is just fucked though.

 

[stump sock]

72 degress up here in VA tomorrow. fuck that.

 

[yami4ct]

The cascading stealth fail-states in MGSV arguably border on magical, initially at least, assuming you engage with bullet-time-oh-shit-I-done-fucked systems and wizard-balloon exploitation.

Yeah. That's a system I'm of two minds of. I think right there is the very edge of being powerful enough to give you a cascading fail state, but not too powerful that it removes all tension. It comes close.

I think The Last of Us (on Hard/Survivor difficulty) solves the stealth power problem pretty well. You have the tools to shoot your way out of a situation if you fuck up, but you just don't have the resources to make a habit of it. There's a lot of good "oh shit" moments when you get caught and you have to start popping off.

Grounded difficulty is just fucked though.

Totally agree that TLoU's resource scarcity at higher difficulties is one solution to the problem,.

 

[Joeku]

The cascading stealth fail-states in MGSV arguably border on magical, initially at least, assuming you engage with bullet-time-oh-shit-I-done-fucked systems and wizard-balloon exploitation.

Yeah, this is what I was going to say to that, Yami.

The naked(?) missions in MGSV are by far the best-playing ones. Only time it felt tense at all for me.

 

[Data West]

When you give your character godly powers, you lose what makes stealth stealth for me. Full stop. There's no out of direct gameplay way to fix that. All the tension of stealth is dead.
.

Mark of the Ninja does that. Mark of the Ninja shows you detection radius. Mark of the Ninja is only inches away from simply showing you the code of the game and giving you instant kills. Like it being a 2 dimensional game and all the shit it displays to you makes it a fucking joke.

 

[Bowlie]

The cascading stealth fail-states in MGSV arguably border on magical, initially at least, assuming you engage with bullet-time-oh-shit-I-done-fucked systems and wizard-balloon exploitation.

I know the first thing you're talking about because I've played GZ, but what's the second one?

(did not play TPP)

 

[yami4ct]

Mark of the Ninja does that. Mark of the Ninja shows you detection radius. Mark of the Ninja is only inches away from simply showing you the code of the game and giving you instant kills. Like it being a 2 dimensional game and all the shit it displays to you makes it a fucking joke.

I think it's the difference between MotN being an arcade style game. The levels are short and meant to be played through over and over, so your score and other outside of game things matter. With a larger game like Dishonored, the stealth needs to be rewarding in and of itself.

 

[Joeku]

I know the first thing you're talking about because I've played GZ, but what's the second one?

(did not play TPP)

TPP has fulton balloons, where you can make any living or dead body (eventually vehicles and shipping crates) fly into the sky and leave the zone of conflict. It is one of the major things that dampers the game for me.

Ground Zeroes is a better game than The Phantom Pain.

 

[Salty Catfish]

The naked(?) missions in MGSV are by far the best-playing ones. Only time it felt tense at all for me.

Agreed, there were a lot of complaints about the rehashed missions but I really enjoyed all of the additional constraints. I mean, there's only so much mission variety you can extract from a stealth-based game, and stripping you back to bare basics was a great way to mix things up. It completely changed the way I approached even simple objectives like "blow up this generator."

 

[HawkeyeFIN]

Spending multiple hours perfectly ghosting a mission in Dishonored on hard, only to have the result screen show me I got spotted once without realizing.. This happened to me more than once and made me so anxious I had to give up on the game.

I don't think I got even halfway through and I put in like 20 hours. Jesus, game, just be more clear when I fuck up so I can just reload a good save!

 

[Noaloha]

I know the first thing you're talking about because I've played GZ, but what's the second one?

(did not play TPP)

In the sense of the term "extraction" becoming something way less stealthy. I assume you know about the Fulton Balloon system -- the game doesn't try to impose any sort of realism on that functionality, outside of occasional high-threat instances where you're surrounded and balloons can be shot down. Otherwise, just grab target, find open-air, click, click, foomph, extracted.

 

[santeesioux]

Oh, so Jason actually wrote a few reviews for GI? He was probably their fighting game guy.

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/p...ers-are-permitted-beyond-the-velvet-room.aspx

 

[yami4ct]

TPP has fulton balloons, where you can make any living or dead body (eventually vehicles and shipping crates) fly into the sky and leave the zone of conflict. It is one of the major things that dampers the game for me.

Ground Zeroes is a better game than The Phantom Pain.

I totally get the complaint. On the other hand, I feel like with most missions, you are moving through zones so quickly that you'd be gone by the time guards wake up anyway so it's not like removing them completely gives you that major an advantage.

That being said, I like the other mission styles. I wish the game had those options for even more missions.

 

[Joeku]

I think it's the difference between MotN being an arcade style game. The levels are short and meant to be played through over and over, so your score and other outside of game things matter. With a larger game like Dishonored, the stealth needs to be rewarding in and of itself.

Honestly, the games aren't that far apart in length and mission count. Seriously. If you're confident with the teleport, you can blast through Dishonored (and I don't mean even in the speedrun sense).

Agreed, there were a lot of complaints about the rehashed missions but I really enjoyed all of the additional constraints. I mean, there's only so much mission variety you can extract from a stealth-based game, and stripping you back to bare basics was a great way to mix things up. It completely changed the way I approached even simple objectives like "blow up this generator."

Yeah, it's almost like linear levels and specific, choreographed weapon and item distribution help designers craft specific scenarios that feel a lot more tight and exciting than needlessly-large "fuck it" sandboxes.

But nevermind. Now is not the time for the MGSV hate train.

Spoiler

That's for next week when GB starts giving it awards.

I totally get the complaint. On the other hand, I feel like with most missions, you are moving through zones so quickly that you'd be gone by the time guards wake up anyway so it's not like removing them completely gives you that major an advantage.

That being said, I like the other mission styles. I wish the game had those options for even more missions.

My issues with Fultoning and the open-world nature of MGSV go hand in hand.

Honestly, it's a bummer that the good missions are used as padding. They are the good ones!

 

[Noaloha]

For a neat, brief chat about failure-states in stealth games, do give a quick read of this and this, by Tom Francis. And also take this post as a recommendation of the Crate And Crowbar podcast, which Tom features on (he named Invisible Inc as his #1 and MGSV his #2 goty in the most recent episode).

 

[yami4ct]

I feel like what MGSV loses in choreographed stealth opportunities it more than makes up for in emergent (forgive the far overused term. I can't think of a better one) opportunities. There are so many times when systems worked together and surprised me, giving me a new challenge to tackle that I never expected and had to adapt to on the fly. It's that feeling that stealth gameplay captures so well and that I love when the genre does right.

 

[Bowlie]

Now I understand, thanks. It feels like it isn't risky enough, or at all.

Does it have some kind of limit? Like, "in this mission you only have 2 balloons so make them count"?

edit: thanks for the links, Noaloha

 

[yami4ct]

Now I understand, thanks. It feels like it isn't risky enough, or at all.

Does it have some kind of limit? Like, "in this mission you only have 2 balloons so make them count"?

You start with a small amount, but by the end you have effectively infinite. Later in the game, enemies can shoot them down and it makes them enter alert status, so there is that.

 

[OdysseusVA]

Yeah, this weather sucks

 

[Noaloha]

I feel like what MGSV loses in choreographed stealth opportunities it more than makes up for in emergent (forgive the far overused term. I can't think of a better one) opportunities. There are so many times when systems worked together and surprised me, giving me a new challenge to tackle that I never expected and had to adapt to on the fly. It's that feeling that stealth gameplay captures so well and that I love when the genre does right.

Oh you like it when systems seemlessly interact with / complement / diverge / alter each other huh?

Really though, you gotta play yourself some Invisible Inc!

Designed tighter than a gnat's chuff.

 

[yami4ct]

Oh you like it when systems seemlessly interact with / complement / diverge / alter each other huh?

Really though, you gotta play yourself some Invisible Inc!

Designed tighter than a gnat's chuff.

It's on the list. I promise! You guys have sold me. I didn't know it was Klei doing it either, so that extra sold me. I've gotta work through the rest of Yakuza 4, Xenoblade X and now Trails of Cold Steel, so it'll be a bit, but I promise I'll give it a go. It sounds like exactly my type of game.

EDIT:
In fact, just grabbed the game+DLC bundle. I'll have no excuse to not check it out when I get the time.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

Battlefront quickly loses its luster but especially more so if you're coming off of bf4. Unlocks take an eternity to acquire and the lack of maps on the main modes wouldn't be such a bummer if the maps weren't the size of a postage stamp compared to bf4.

What a bummer.

 

[Joeku]

It's on the list. I promise! You guys have sold me. I didn't know it was Klei doing it either, so that extra sold me. I've gotta work through the rest of Yakuza 4, Xenoblade X and now Trails of Cold Steel, so it'll be a bit, but I promise I'll give it a go. It sounds like exactly my type of game.

It's also a roguelite. Assuming you don't take forever thinking through turns, a full run can be done in, what, a couple hours? So you can play it amongst everything else.

 

[yami4ct]

It's also a roguelite. Assuming you don't take forever thinking through turns, a full run can be done in, what, a couple hours? So you can play it amongst everything else.

So the game is structured kind of like FTL? Keeps getting better and better.

 

[Joeku]

So the game is structured kind of like FTL? Keeps getting better and better.

Yep (edit: more like the xcom "travel to the site of the mission", but yeah, set endpoint). I didn't even know that until I played it. Fell the fuck in love.

 

[Salty Catfish]

So the game is structured kind of like FTL? Keeps getting better and better.

Yeah, "beating" Invisible Inc. is far from the end of the game. It's meant to be infinitely replayable a la Spelunky, Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc.

 

[yami4ct]

Yep (edit: more like the xcom "travel to the site of the mission", but yeah, set endpoint). I didn't even know that until I played it. Fell the fuck in love.

This sounds like exactly the type of experience I need between now and when XCOM 2 hits.Wish I had known more about it earlier. Would have helped take the sting out of that delay.

 

[Joeku]

Fuck, it's 10 PM and I need to get up in seven hours to get ready for work but I just want to play Invisible Inc now.

 

[Piston Hyundai]

don't laugh, but I think Rare Replay is on my game of the year list

 

[CoolBatteryCharge]

I'm late, but Dan's Mission Accomplished video is so damn good.

 

[KingKong]

As bad of a year this has been for fps games, it was so good for rpgs

Witcher 3, Bloodborne, Undertale, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun Hong Kong

 

[Incandenza]

don't laugh, but I think Rare Replay is on my game of the year list

Who could laugh at a package that has Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts and Viva Pinata?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Well looks like I can't afford EDF for now.

But it's ok, I'm watching Moldova be awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apav8vgfxMQ

 

[santeesioux]

don't laugh, but I think Rare Replay is on my game of the year list

Nobunaga's Ambition is pretty high on my list, and I'd say that is odder than yours.

 

[Anjin M]

As bad of a year this has been for fps games, it was so good for rpgs

Witcher 3, Bloodborne, Undertale, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun Hong Kong

I have to know what you think of Age of Decadence. It showed up in my steam discovery queue yesterday but I don't know much about it.

 

[giant_frying_pan]

Dishonored is the most underrated last gen title imo. Best controlling game of last gen.

I love it, but Super Meat Boy was the best controlling game last gen by a distance.

 

[Piston Hyundai]

I love it, but Super Meat Boy was the best controlling game last gen by a distance.

hopefully you forgot what "best" means

 

[giant_frying_pan]

hopefully you forgot what "best" means

best
See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
Line breaks: best
Pronunciation: /bɛst/
Definition of best in English:
adjective

1Of the most excellent or desirable type or quality:
the best midfielder in the country
how to obtain the best results from your machine
her best black suit
Super Meat Boy controlled the best amongst all 7th gen console releases.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

We've officially lost him

Anime update 2:

Golgo 13: Queen Bee is about a man who silently murders and/or silently fucks everyone he meets. It has a few little twists and turns that meander around until the end, when everyone but Golgo 13 gets murdered by Golgo 13.

 

[Twin Tails]

I love this.

 

[Incandenza]

We've officially lost him

Well sure but how many fetish situations does it have? How much suffering is in it?

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

Stop reminding me that the golgo movies aren't on blu ray Jeff