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Giant Bomb are bringing back the Endurance Run... and it's Shenmue.
- Thread starter MassiveNights
- Start date
What even happened in this topic
Anyway, I really hope they do 2 after seeing today's episode. As fun as the playthrough is, it's showing how easy it is to completely miss dozens of scenes I took for granted when playing through the game that helped make the world and characters feel more lively. The fact they could've easily missed that scene at the end that I've pretty much always seen is pretty surprising and I have to wonder if they'll even get the scenes that happen on Christmas even after talking about it so much.
One of 2's best improvements is that most of the interesting characters take center stage as they're the main people you interact with since Ryo doesn't know anyone else and can't get by pushing everyone away like he does in 1. There's still some notable hidden scenes and sidequests but at least it wouldn't be as barren of things going on as this playthrough of 1.
Anyway, I really hope they do 2 after seeing today's episode. As fun as the playthrough is, it's showing how easy it is to completely miss dozens of scenes I took for granted when playing through the game that helped make the world and characters feel more lively. The fact they could've easily missed that scene at the end that I've pretty much always seen is pretty surprising and I have to wonder if they'll even get the scenes that happen on Christmas even after talking about it so much.
One of 2's best improvements is that most of the interesting characters take center stage as they're the main people you interact with since Ryo doesn't know anyone else and can't get by pushing everyone away like he does in 1. There's still some notable hidden scenes and sidequests but at least it wouldn't be as barren of things going on as this playthrough of 1.
There's still some complete bullshit that should be pretty fun to see them react to too.
stump sock
Member
people overly invested in the game are very keen on pointing out why these videos are bad.
but yeah, I'd love to see them play 2 since I never did. Might as well see this shitshow through to its conclusion.
VibratingDonkey
Member
Haven't played Shenmue since I was like half my age, so it's good to get a more current perspective on it.
I still like the same things about it and will forever maintain that it was groundbreaking and fantastic for its time, but I didn't realize how obtuse it can be until I watched this playthrough.
Someone said the fortune teller is unavailable that specific day because Ryo needs to save his money for the Hong Kong trip? Why doesn't the game tell the player this?
How are you supposed to intuit that Guizhang can read the scrolls when none of the Chinese people in town can read it? Why can't you ask them to read it? Hearing Ryo say "I can't read Chinese." as he folds out the scroll in front of a Chinese woman, is some real excruciating stuff.
Etc.
It's been almost as long since I last played Shenmue II, so I don't really recall how it compares to the first one, but in any case, I hope for III they're better about catching nonsense like that.
I still like the same things about it and will forever maintain that it was groundbreaking and fantastic for its time, but I didn't realize how obtuse it can be until I watched this playthrough.
Someone said the fortune teller is unavailable that specific day because Ryo needs to save his money for the Hong Kong trip? Why doesn't the game tell the player this?
How are you supposed to intuit that Guizhang can read the scrolls when none of the Chinese people in town can read it? Why can't you ask them to read it? Hearing Ryo say "I can't read Chinese." as he folds out the scroll in front of a Chinese woman, is some real excruciating stuff.
Etc.
It's been almost as long since I last played Shenmue II, so I don't really recall how it compares to the first one, but in any case, I hope for III they're better about catching nonsense like that.
Incandenza
Banned
come back
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
For the fortune teller thing, it did tell them she was unavailable at the time. Ryo said he needed to get a ticket, which they took to mean they needed to get a ticket for the fortune teller. It wasn't perfectly clear, but given that they were on their way to try and book passage on a boat, it's still pretty obvious that's what it meant.
petethepanda
Member
"Enjoy Shenmue."
This is everything I could have ever wanted.
This is everything I could have ever wanted.
Here's a question: what, exactly, are the police doing while the revenge narrative of Ryo Hazuki is playing out?
A man has been robbed and murdered while all the members of his household were assaulted by a group of armed men who invaded his property. You'd think that would be a big news story, but it never seems that way. You'd think that local law enforcement would have their own ongoing investigation to rival Ryo's, but there's never any hint of it.
During the early segments where Ryo is speaking to neighbors and tracing the path Lan Di and his men followed in their escape, the way everyone talks about what happened makes it seem like no one else ever bothered to interview any of them before Ryo came along. That this is the first time that anyone has bothered to come along and try to figure out where the car carrying a murderer and his black-suited thugs might have gone.
I know that Ryo (despite how bland his voice is and how easily distracted he is by arcade games and capsule toy machines) is passionate about avenging his father's murder. I know that he doesn't want the police involved in his search for the killer. But, is that a choice that Ryo actually gets to make?
A man has been robbed and murdered while all the members of his household were assaulted by a group of armed men who invaded his property. You'd think that would be a big news story, but it never seems that way. You'd think that local law enforcement would have their own ongoing investigation to rival Ryo's, but there's never any hint of it.
During the early segments where Ryo is speaking to neighbors and tracing the path Lan Di and his men followed in their escape, the way everyone talks about what happened makes it seem like no one else ever bothered to interview any of them before Ryo came along. That this is the first time that anyone has bothered to come along and try to figure out where the car carrying a murderer and his black-suited thugs might have gone.
I know that Ryo (despite how bland his voice is and how easily distracted he is by arcade games and capsule toy machines) is passionate about avenging his father's murder. I know that he doesn't want the police involved in his search for the killer. But, is that a choice that Ryo actually gets to make?
I speel my dreenk
Member
Granted I never played the game, but simply having him say "So I have to buy a ticket first" after selecting 'Try' on the fortune teller signals to me that perhaps you need a ticket to have your fortune read, and so maybe there's a fortune teller ticket machine nearby or something like that. If what it means is "Advance the story and get a boat ticket to Hong Kong before you can have your fortune read," well that's just fucking terrible signposting AND nonsensical to boot!
For the record, I do respect what this game was going for, and even what it did accomplish, coming out when it did. I wish I'd played it back then, because it just seems so quaint and archaic now - like many games from that time.
It'd be a little more obvious if they had any interest in literally any side activity in the game. Ryo flat out refuses to spend money until he gets the travel thing done with. I know when I played it was immediately obvious when I tried to buy some capsule toys or cat food or something. They could've used a better line, but that probably wasn't possible due to the limited space on each disc severely crippling Ryo's ability to react. At least he didn't say "Um..."
I speel my dreenk
Member
Definitely a poor line choice, even if it was somehow unavoidable. But yeah, since they didn't check anything else, I can understand that.
You can kinda hear it, sounds like he's slapping his knees, or the tabletop, or something
I mean if it was like the problems you have with some other localisations (I've read it was a problem in both Final Fantasy X and Trails in the Sky) where they have a strict amount of time for each line. Maybe they couldn't make the line longer due to technical reasons. (Japanese tends to be shorter as you have symbols which means word/phrases unlike english)
EmCeeGramr
Member
ShenmueNextGen: Posting a bunch of random quotes while repeating some nonsense about embarrassment is barely above spam. Don't do it again.
Everyone else: As... weird as that was, don't sink to nasty personal insults by calling people mentally ill or virgins.
Everyone else: As... weird as that was, don't sink to nasty personal insults by calling people mentally ill or virgins.
Pretty much, and I mean I'd argue Japanese games in general have had a really big problem with that kind of thing, and they've only really started fixing it more recently.
Many JRPGs suffer from the fact that you can miss so much so easily. Suikoden you'd practically have to follow a guide to get all the characters in most of those. Tales of has always had a problem with there being a load of side quests which you can miss because you have to backtrack to areas at random times without even realising - It wasn't really until Graces/Xillia/Zestiria where they made side quests more managable, and even then it's not totally perfect. Some of the earlier Final Fantasys have some side content which you just wouldn't know were there without following some kind of guide.
Don't get me started on the true ending bullshit either, but that's another can of worms.
Now I'm not saying there shouldn't be secrets. I'm saying unless you really want it to be a little secret/teaser/bonus or whatever. At least give some indication they exist. Like maybe have the NPCs comment on it at the very least.
If by surfacing you mean having arrows floating over peoples heads that indicate "hey I have some interesting content for you," then yes. That's not an elegant solution and I don't want that. Part of the fun in this game is the discovery process.
That last episode was an embarrassing performance. The musical number at the end was pretty good though.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I prefer Shenmue's method of discovery to today's minimaps and waypoints.
Found an amazing making of Shenmue documentary video on YouTube.
https://youtu.be/-5fe_eXb95s
It shows them using references maps and designing Dobuita street. I want to know where that real life location is so I can immediately go there with my Google cardboard VR.
https://youtu.be/-5fe_eXb95s
It shows them using references maps and designing Dobuita street. I want to know where that real life location is so I can immediately go there with my Google cardboard VR.
Piston Hyundai
Member
you don't say
I actually agree.
More games should try. That's one piece of old school design i miss a bit.
I wouldn't even agree that it has a lot of side content, judging by the lists of side content people post in this thread.
I think Yakuza does provide that good balance of guidance on the map while also having a lot of content that can be found by exploring.
Why is it that whenever someone in this thread criticizes Shenmue's poor signaling and communication, it's always 'countered' with the claim that the critic must want the most hand-holdy garbage instead?
I was right there with them.
I'm sure some people will say "no shit" to me agreeing; but I second this.
I actually can't think of a game world I've had to remember the layout of/fully explore since the advent of GPS style mini-mapping. I'm sure that feature made sense when there was the arms race of open world size, but now the focus seems to be on detail and depth I find the waypoint and mission marker style of design kind of missing the point, and sucking the fun out of the joy of discovery.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I don't mind this way (I played Witcher 3 without minimap for example) I just don't think the game has the many interesting things to discover unless they all missed them so far.
Maybe some of the characters have somewhat interesting things to say but the horrible voice acting and bad translation really don't help.
A lot of games let you turn that off though.
But yeah, sometimes it's SUPER dumb. I remember some quest in Oblivion (I think) that tasked me to "FIND THIS LONG LOST THING" and put a huge marker on my map. Silly. Just silly.
Maybe some of the characters have somewhat interesting things to say but the horrible voice acting and bad translation really don't help.
And if you bring up that stupid cat again I will claw your face off right meow
A lot of games let you turn that off though.
But yeah, sometimes it's SUPER dumb. I remember some quest in Oblivion (I think) that tasked me to "FIND THIS LONG LOST THING" and put a huge marker on my map. Silly. Just silly.
Supermanisdead
Member
people too harsh on the cat. i think if they realized u can feed it, they would interact with it a lot more.
Not even. Just mention in passing that there's stuff there, and that doing it has rewards. Like, have someone at the arcade brag about their Space Harrier high-score, maybe someone at the dojo studying a move from a scroll. Maybe put some more events in town at the beginning so you can show that the game can and will react to you visiting certain places. Make it clear that there are incentives for going around and discovering stuff.
The easiest metaphor to explain what I'm trying to say is drug dealing: give the first hit for free, and watch people get hooked. You don't have to barf icons and arrows on a map. Just get the ball rolling.
they picked up tuna at the Tomato at the docks
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Yeah. I don't mind games that incentivize discovery but I don't think Shenmue provides a world, characters, or enough meaningful things to do in said world to make discovery worthwhile. It's not like, say, Trails in the Sky, where exploration can result in really interesting dialogue/sidequests/worldbuilding/etc.
A lot of people in here seem to be getting a smug satisfaction from drive by shit posting on Shenmue. Like they feed off of knowing they are likely upsetting people who genuinely love the game.
Yes, it looks rough now but at the time it was groundbreaking and a lot of us will always look on it fondly for its sense of immersion, which really hadn't been done before in video games.
I would argue certain aspects (like the lack of icons all over a mini map) still haven't really been bested.
Yes, it looks rough now but at the time it was groundbreaking and a lot of us will always look on it fondly for its sense of immersion, which really hadn't been done before in video games.
I would argue certain aspects (like the lack of icons all over a mini map) still haven't really been bested.
Because I never heard Giant Bomb or anyone else complain about too much arrows on screen. In fact, I turned off the ReCore Quick Look when Brad and Jeff were whining that there was no minimap with objectives clearly marked on screen at all times, when the sub menu map literally took fractions of a second to load in and out.
Nah. They thought they'd get an option when the 'pet, call, look' prompt came up, but didn't try through the inventory.
Unfortunately it may be too late as
the cat is gone after the opening of Disk 3.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I'd agree that a lot of the side content in the game isn't that fun. I'm not much of a fan of the arcade games, and never really bothered with the bobbleheads either. What I liked was finding all the little cutscenes, events and character stuff that really fleshed the city out, and just exploring. These are things they've really missed out on in this run. What sucks for them is that they were finally starting to do that a bit, but they did it at the worst possible time for them and it wound up making them wait a day. They could have done a bit more with that day than what they did, but whatever. The game is what it is, and it's not for everyone.
Yeah, this is my feeling. What Shenmue 1 does best is its atmosphere, which just added so much to the game. Hugely immersive.
Yeah, this is my feeling. What Shenmue 1 does best is its atmosphere, which just added so much to the game. Hugely immersive.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
So your point is "Well, they like minimaps so obviously their criticism of this is invalid"?
This is a great video that people should watch. Also, folks should read the interview with Jeremy Blaustein (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/jb/jb2.htm#shenmue) regarding the localization process. Those two pieces should put the game into some context.
Yeah, you're right in that regard. Game design is an art, not a science, it's hard to get it right.
Pretty much. From that video ReCore has some pretty obviously big problems, but a lack of minimap ain't one of them. They've just been spoiled by modern gaming's perpetual march to make games more accessible to every one. Here's a Pro Tip, learn to read a map, you won't get lost so much.
Not to put words in the dude's mouth, but maybe they were talking about how hand holding is rarely criticised (except with Nintendo), and that we may be turning past the point of no return where you can't make a break from that trend without getting shit on for it?
I dunno. It's a weird one, and there's probably not actually a right answer because how that stuff can conflate heavily with personal preference.
I personally prefer the approach of Shenmue II with purchasable maps, maps on display, more helpful direction from NPCs, and having them lead you to your destination; but having exploration and a good memory of areas paying off, as well as ultimately being the best option for getting around.
Actually, the best side content in II starts by noticing something is subtly different in one of the environments.
Ok, but how does that address the people in this thread?
Alright, but based on your response to ElNarez, you would agree there is a better alternative to how Shenmue handles these thing, yeah? It's not like that suggestion is a modern game design.
Multiple times in this thread I've seen people responding to Shenmue criticism with slingshotting to the opposite extreme of assuming the person showing distaste for Shenmue's jank must want quest markers, arrows, and guiding lines everywhere as if there is no other alternative to game design.
The original Silent Hill pre-dates Shenmue, has a large three-dimensional environment to explore, and still has the sense to include a reasonable map system.
In that game, the protagonist has printed maps of the town that he adds handwritten notations to that indicate changes in geography, blocked roads, or the next location he plans to investigate.
Shenmue could have very easily done something similar to complement Ryo's updating notebook.
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