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[Hunnybun]

Maybe they should stop making 2 games in one then??

Why on earth linear, cinematic games like this TLOU2 need to be 30 hours long god only knows.

Cut them in half, get them out earlier and slash the dev costs.

 

[Haint]

What exactly did you guys think they were paying 400+ college+ educated people in one of the most expensive cities in the world for 5 years? Peanuts and Skittles?

 

[GHG]

First off, you ignore the first few words of the bolded quote from me. When I said, "there are talks about how Playstation ain't selling the amount of software they wanted". You are trying to make seem like I said that Sony said this. Which I never did, I was specifically talking about the analysts and I made that clear.

Nope, I told you the statement was not true asked you if you listened to their earnings call. You then pointed me towards an article quoting that analyst as if that was supposed to be a source for what was discussed in their earnings call. Why are you trying to rewrite the course of our discussion when it's all right here? Let's not forget the fact that you thought they didn't discuss software sales and projections in their earnings call which is a red flag in of itself, especially for someone who wants to take a view on this topic.

Your hedge fund conspiracy theory is just copium.

Brilliant. I guess all those tickers that outperform the market by doing the opposite of what some of the most infamous "analysts" out there say are just "copium" too.

Hey, at least that's another topic you can do some reading around if you wish though.

I am not saying that Playstation struggles, all I am saying is that some analysts have talked about Playstation software sales not being what they could be. If you disagree then fine, but holy shit talk about throwing a fucking tantrum over nothing. Just say you disagree with the experts.

Tantrum? I'm merely correcting your assumptions and trying to point you in the right direction.

At least these so called "experts" can act as confirmation bias though. No need to look behind the curtain. Reading? What's that and who has time for it? Shame.

 

[SlimySnake]

Nope, I told you the statement was not true asked you if you listened to their earnings call. You then pointed me towards an article quoting that analyst as if that was supposed to be a source for what was discussed in their earnings call. Why are you trying to rewrite the course of our discussion when it's all right here? Let's not forget the fact that you thought they didn't discuss software sales and projections in their earnings call which is a red flag in of itself, especially for someone who wants to take a view on this topic.



Brilliant. I guess all those tickers that outperform the market by doing the opposite of what some of the most infamous "analysts" out there say are just "copium" too.

Hey, at least that's another topic you can do some reading around if you wish though.



Tantrum? I'm merely correcting your assumptions and trying to point you in the right direction.

At least these so called "experts" can act as confirmation bias though. No need to look behind the curtain. Reading? What's that and who has time for it? Shame.

Their first party sales are down from 43.9 to 43.5 in FY 2021. Despite them breaking consoles sales records.

Their own slides showed this. The sales are slightly down and not growing. They also projected lower sales for FY2023 presumably because aside from Spider-Man they don’t have anything else which is shocking considering even Phil managed to have 4 first party games out this year.

 

[The artful mincer]

Why on earth are people getting there panties in a twist over a piddling 200 million budget?!!

This game already sold 11 million units at $70 average that's 770 million in revenue, the game has continued to chart high since then and will likely continue to sell for the rest of the gen.

Even on physical sales Sony get back 70% on digital they get 95%. At 70% Sony get back 530 million...

200 million budget was completely reasonable for a sequel to a game that sold 23+ million copies!!

Now if every game has a budget of 200 million we have a problem fortunately we don't live in that idiotic world

 

[GHG]

Their first party sales are down from 43.9 to 43.5 in FY 2021. Despite them breaking consoles sales records.

Their own slides showed this. The sales are slightly down and not growing.

That doesn't tell the whole story. They are up on a quarterly basis (and YoY for the quarter) but down slightly when compared on a 12 month basis.

They also projected lower sales for FY2023 presumably because aside from Spider-Man they don’t have anything else which is shocking considering even

Yep I referenced that.

Phil managed to have 4 first party games out this year.

Only 2 games are out so far and one of those is Redfall. I'll gladly take less frequency of big first party releases if it means situations like Redfall are avoided.

 

[Stare-Bear]

Microsoft spent $7,6 billion and got RedFall...

 

[midnightAI]

They also projected lower sales for FY2023 presumably because aside from Spider-Man they don’t have anything else which is shocking considering even Phil managed to have 4 first party games out this year.

I'd rather them take their time than release games unfinished. (About time for a showcase Sony, to quote a Cromulon.. Show me what you got)

 

[Bragr]

Nope, I told you the statement was not true asked you if you listened to their earnings call. You then pointed me towards an article quoting that analyst as if that was supposed to be a source for what was discussed in their earnings call. Why are you trying to rewrite the course of our discussion when it's all right here? Let's not forget the fact that you thought they didn't discuss software sales and projections in their earnings call which is a red flag in of itself, especially for someone who wants to take a view on this topic.



Brilliant. I guess all those tickers that outperform the market by doing the opposite of what some of the most infamous "analysts" out there say are just "copium" too.

Hey, at least that's another topic you can do some reading around if you wish though.



Tantrum? I'm merely correcting your assumptions and trying to point you in the right direction.

At least these so called "experts" can act as confirmation bias though. No need to look behind the curtain. Reading? What's that and who has time for it? Shame.

What you quote in the call is not a statement that they are selling enough software. It's a statement about them increasing software sales. That's two completely different things.

How can you possibly say the analyst did not talk about the earnings call when they were specifically reacting to it?

Please, show me where I said they don't discuss sales and projections in the earnings call.

And while you're at it, show me the proof that those analysts are hedge fun players trying to undermine Playstation.

 

[Ozriel]

Headline seems deceptive. That figure most likely includes marketing.

 

[DForce]

I have not said Sony said anything, I don't know why are you pushing this.

This is not about the quarter, this is about in general.

I said they wanted more, based on a topic we see coming up from analysts, people who work on this for a living.

"...there are also concerns that the PS5’s earlier hardware supply issues are having a knock on effect on software sales and subscriptions, which are important if the company wants to build a “virtuous cycle” of mutually reinforcing console and game sales."

Sony reports strong PS5 hardware sales as it closes in on 40 million units sold

Good news for hardware, less so for games.

www.theverge.com

First party sales were up while third-party sales were down. So what you're saying is completely wrong.

If there were major concerns of first-party sales, then they wouldn't bundle God of War with PS5 consoles.

 

[damidu]

doesn't seem that high?
wonder how much is sinked into halo infinite,
and they can't even sell that shit

 

[John Wick]

God of War Ragnarok Reportedly Cost $200 Million to Make

According to Sony's Shuhei Yoshida, God of War Ragnarok cost Santa Monica Studios more than four times the amount of money spent on making God of War III.

www.glitched.online

This is about what I stated previously, but many people said there's no way it could have cost that amount.

That will most likely include the advertising budget as well. Did they mention that?

 

[Bragr]

First party sales were up while third-party sales were down. So what you're saying is completely wrong.

If there were major concerns of first-party sales, then they wouldn't bundle God of War with PS5 consoles.

First off, there are tons of takes on this, and Mat Piscatella is not an authority. I am sure several analysts would disagree with him here.

Secondly, what I am saying is wrong? All I said is that there are talks about Playstation not selling enough software. And there are talks about Playstation not selling enough software, which I showed.

And God of War would get bundled no matter what, that would not factor into this equation as the upsides are too many, the problem is more games like Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon' Souls. And that many view Playstation as a God of War, Spider-Man, Call of Duty, or FIFA machine and don't buy enough other games.

 

[kyussman]

I imagine given the reception of GOW 2018 they had the confidence to go all in like that.....and it made good money too,so whether you like the game or not it's mission accomplished.

 

[GHG]

What you quote in the call is not a statement that they are selling enough software. It's a statement about them increasing software sales. That's two completely different things.

So where and how did you deduce that they aren't selling "enough" software? Because they certainly didn't say that nor have they ever said words to that effect.

How can you possibly say the analyst did not talk about the earnings call when they were specifically reacting to it?

Because they made no direct reference to the earnings call or what was said in it. In fact, many things in the article go against the discussions that actually happened in the earnings call.

Please, show me where I said they don't discuss sales and projections in the earnings call.

That's not what I said, software is the key word you said they weren't going to talk about it in their earnings call, they did.

And while you're at it, show me the proof that those analysts are hedge fun players trying to undermine Playstation.

In a world where Cramer, Pachter, etc exist you're seriously asking this? It's not specific to Sony or playstation, the whole financial instruments industry is rife with it. Like I said, do your own research on the subject.

 

[hemo memo]

150m marketing?

 

[DJ12]

If you think about it, Redfall just cost Microsoft its console business, 200 million is pittance.

 

[Schmendrick]

If that figure includes marketing that's not even much nowadays.
If that is purely the production though... Ouch.

 

[Badlucktroll]

I hope we get a 200 million Metal Gear Solid this gen

 

[Bragr]

So where and how did you deduce that they aren't selling "enough" software? Because they certainly didn't say that nor have they ever said words to that effect.

Because they made no direct reference to the earnings call or what was said in it. In fact, many things in the article go against the discussions that actually happened in the earnings call.

That's not what I said, software is the key word you said they weren't going to talk about it in their earnings call, they did.

In a world where Cramer, Pachter, etc exist you're seriously asking this? It's not specific to Sony or playstation, the whole financial instruments industry is rife with it. Like I said, do your own research on the subject.

I didn't deduce anything, I said there are talks of Playstation not selling enough software, I have no idea if that is true or not, I mentioned it because I read that article with the analysts some days past and it was relevant in the context of problematic triple-A games expenses.

The article was about the earnings call, and the analysts chimed in. The entire article was about that.

Yes, that is what you said: "Let's not forget the fact that you thought they didn't discuss software sales and projections in their earnings call". Software is the key word I said? what does that even mean? I did not say they don't discuss software. I said it's not gonna have industry commentary about their software sales. Which it does not have. You are making things up because you are caught out, this is stupid.

I don't care about Cramer or Pachter, you don't even know who these other analysts are. Just spouting baseless claims and saying that I need to "research" is completely ridiculous. If you have these sorts of massive incriminating complaints you better have something to back it up with apart from you don't like Pachter.

 

[Pelta88]

Why are people acting like the game didn't recoup that cost in its first week at retail?

 

[drganon]

So where and how did you deduce that they aren't selling "enough" software? Because they certainly didn't say that nor have they ever said words to that effect.



Because they made no direct reference to the earnings call or what was said in it. In fact, many things in the article go against the discussions that actually happened in the earnings call.



That's not what I said, software is the key word you said they weren't going to talk about it in their earnings call, they did.



In a world where Cramer, Pachter, etc exist you're seriously asking this? It's not specific to Sony or playstation, the whole financial instruments industry is rife with it. Like I said, do your own research on the subject.

You're asking a lot of the guy who created a whole thread bitching about people posting gifs.

 

[GHG]

I didn't deduce anything, I said there are talks of Playstation not selling enough software, I have no idea if that is true or not, I mentioned it because I read that article with the analysts some days past and it was relevant in the context of problematic triple-A games expenses.

Well at least we've had some progress in this respect.

The article was about the earnings call, and the analysts chimed in. The entire article was about that.

Yes, that is what you said: "Let's not forget the fact that you thought they didn't discuss software sales and projections in their earnings call". Software is the key word I said? what does that even mean? I did not say they don't discuss software. I said it's not gonna have industry commentary about their software sales. Which it does not have. You are making things up because you are caught out, this is stupid.

And yet it (the earnings call) does. There's a whole Q&A segment and this was one of the questions asked.

1. And for smartphone games being really popular, the game consoles, what is the -- what is going to be the changes in the existence of that in FY23? On a profit basis, this part is going to go down for software. So you talked about the increase in software development costs. With the background of that, can you specifically share that information with us?

Hence why I told you to read the whole transcript.

I don't care about Cramer or Pachter, you don't even know who these other analysts are. Just spouting baseless claims and saying that I need to "research" is completely ridiculous. If you have these sorts of massive incriminating complaints you better have something to back it up with apart from you don't like Pachter.

13f's are a thing, everything is documented. With regards to Pachter specifically, he works directly for a hedge fund, there is zero obfuscation in his case. I've actually had this discussion in depth with a number of people here (both privately and publically) and they will attest to this, but honestly I'm not going to waste my time explaining this to you in detail when you've demonstrated willful ignorance several times throughout this discussion. Not wasting my time.

You're asking a lot of the guy who created a whole thread bitching about people posting gifs.

Don't worry, I've realised. It's more than apparent.

Why are people acting like the game didn't recoup that cost in its first week at retail?

Because they don't like to see Sony succeed this way and would rather they go down the path of "free" games.

 

[DForce]

First off, there are tons of takes on this, and Mat Piscatella is not an authority. I am sure several analysts would disagree with him here.

Secondly, what I am saying is wrong? All I said is that there are talks about Playstation not selling enough software. And there are talks about Playstation not selling enough software, which I showed.

And God of War would get bundled no matter what, that would not factor into this equation as the upsides are too many, the problem is more games like Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon' Souls. And that many view Playstation as a God of War, Spider-Man, Call of Duty, or FIFA machine and don't buy enough other games.

First of all, the quote quoted in the Bloomberg article said this.



Mat is not an authority, but he is sure far more reliable because he actually has access to data and doesn't think a console is going to fail because of its color.

Secondly, what I am saying is wrong? All I said is that there are talks about Playstation not selling enough software. And there are talks about Playstation not selling enough software, which I showed.

It's the source you're using. What he's saying in the article doesn't actually reflect what's going on and that's why Mat commented on his article and that's why people are pointing out the flaws in his analysis.

And God of War would get bundled no matter what, that would not factor into this equation as the upsides are too many, the problem is more games like Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon' Souls. And that many view Playstation as a God of War, Spider-Man, Call of Duty, or FIFA machine and don't buy enough other games.

No. Sony knows bundling games would sacrifice sales in order to sell the console. If they were in desperate need of revenue or concerned about sales, then they wouldn't bundle games for nearly this long.

This goes to show you that Sony knows the games will make enough money in retail and making their money back wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Bernardougf]

Heads need to roll at SSM if this thing indeed cost $200 million. We've seen what they can do with $44 million.

I would be surprised if this figure includes the marketing budget of putting those stupid Miljnors all over Europe even though the genius director failed to put that weapon in the game.

How do you give that man $200 million?

ND was making Uncharted and TLOU for $20 million just ten years ago. What happened? Inflation has gone up by 30% which would make them $26 million in 2023.

GOW3 took 3 years and Ragnorak took 4.5 years. So lets increase the costs by 1.5x. Thats $66 million, putting it in the inflation calculator back to 2010 dollars get us $91 million.

$200 million in nonsense. It's like when that publisher told CMA that their game cost $600 million and $550 million were spent on the marketing. Thats a fucking money laundering operation if I ever saw one.

Wait are you serious?? I didnt play the game yet ..waiting for psplus.... but the hammer that is sold in the special editions and marketing is not in the game ??? Wtf ? Loool

 

[Bragr]

Well at least we've had some progress in this respect.

And yet it (the earnings call) does. There's a whole Q&A segment and this was one of the questions asked.

Hence why I told you to read the whole transcript.

13f's are a thing, everything is documented. With regards to Pachter specifically, he works directly for a hedge fund, there is zero obfuscation in his case. I've actually had this discussion in depth with a number of people here and they will attest to this (both privately and publically) but honestly I'm not going to waste my time explaining this to you in detail when you've demonstrated willful ignorance several times throughout this discussion. Not wasting my time.

But the QA segment is not talking about what you are saying, at all. There is no way you don't understand that. And you are talking about willful ignorance? you 100% see it, you just don't want to admit you are wrong.

And now you are starting to talk about Pachter. You are the one who brought him up and compared him to these other analysts for no reason. Not all analysts work for the same company, in case you didn't know.

I agree with your last bit though, you should stop wasting our time and just rage-quit the conversation.

 

[DarthPutin]

Isn't an "expert" referenced the same loser who keeps inventing FUD about PlayStation that they then have to come out to disprove? Or is it another weird biased Bloomberg guy? If it's the same person, I am not sure why anyone would take him seriously on anything.

 

[MOTM]

doesn't seem that high?
wonder how much is sinked into halo infinite,
and they can't even sell that shit

This as about Sony, how much do you think Demons Soul remake, Returnal, Days Gone etc flopped? No way they made money off of that with these budgets.

 

[Solarstrike]

 

[GHG]

But the QA segment is not talking about what you are saying, at all. There is no way you don't understand that. And you are talking about willful ignorance? you 100% see it, you just don't want to admit you are wrong.

Nah, it's exactly that. Want to know why? It's typically the industry commentators (the ones you call "experts") asking the questions. The person who asked the question I previously quoted:

Unidentified Analyst

Again, read the transcript.

And now you are starting to talk about Pachter. You are the one who brought him up and compared him to these other analysts for no reason. Not all analysts work for the same company, in case you didn't know.

I referenced Pachter as an example. They are all cut from the same cloth and exist for the same purpose.

I agree with your last bit though, you should stop wasting our time and just rage-quit the conversation.

Don't worry, I'll leave that to you.

 

[Bragr]

First of all, the quote quoted in the Bloomberg article said this.



Mat is not an authority, but he is sure far more reliable because he actually has access to data and doesn't think a console is going to fail because of its color.

It's the source you're using. What he's saying in the article doesn't actually reflect what's going on and that's why Mat commented on his article and that's why people are pointing out the flaws in his analysis.

No. Sony knows bundling games would sacrifice sales in order to sell the console. If they were in desperate need of revenue or concerned about sales, then they wouldn't bundle games for nearly this long.

This goes to show you that Sony knows the games will make enough money in retail and making their money back wouldn't be a problem.

The quote in the Bloomberg article said what? I would need more than a sentence to make sense of that. I highly doubt the entire conversation is about the color.

Selling the console is more important than selling copies of God of War.

No one is saying Sony won't make their money back.

What we were talking about, earlier, were all this stems from, was how the increase in game development will make it harder and harder to make money from triple-A games. That is not an issue Sony is facing right now but might be at some point.

 

[L*][*N*K]

UbiSoft used to spend a 100m on a game a while back (Far Cry 5) and look where that got them, if your aim is to make it bigger with every installment then you will end up spending a billion on "God Of War Kratos Goes After The Aztec" in a decade, that is why innovation is important and it should be the selling factor not just graphics and how much you made Christopher Judge scream.

 

[JackSparr0w]

Valheim was made by 5 people and it's the better game and it also sold more copies.

It's actually made by Swedish developers rather than California wokes.

If big studios want to waste money why should I care? I might pick Ragnarok for $10 during a dry period when it comes to steam.

 

[nowhat]

And people said that hfw costed only 100 mil? Fucking how?

Mature engine and toolset combined with smart use of outsourcing.

 

[DenchDeckard]

200 million will not include marketing. It's never included when they discuss these budget figures and marketing can easily equal development so erecting an big hammer or axe and shite will easily cost another 100 mill.

These games aren't sustainable. I think Sony should rein it in a touch for next gen and not let them inflate the costs again.

 

[DJ12]

200 million will not include marketing. It's never included when they discuss these budget figures and marketing can easily equal development so erecting an big hammer or axe and shite will easily cost another 100 mill.

These games aren't sustainable. I think Sony should rein it in a touch for next gen and not let them inflate the costs again.

It's working so well for Microsoft

 

[GymWolf]

Mature engine and toolset combined with smart use of outsourcing.

But it's a way bigger game, that looks much better, with more voice acting, etc.

I think that the 100 mil budget was just some bullshit at this point or guerrilla really are fucking wizards.

Fucking forspoken costed 100 mil...

 

[Moses85]

 

[Mr Moose]

Marketing is expensive.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

200 million will not include marketing. It's never included when they discuss these budget figures and marketing can easily equal development so erecting an big hammer or axe and shite will easily cost another 100 mill.

These games aren't sustainable. I think Sony should rein it in a touch for next gen and not let them inflate the costs again.

It will include marketing in this case. It wouldn't cost 200mil just to develop a game that basically repurposed the same tech, many environments and copied the systems over from the 2018 game.

 

[mejin]

Didn't Halo Infinite cost $500M?

$200M for the best game in its genre was cheap af

 

[nowhat]

But it's a way bigger game

...which is largely procedurally generated. That's not trying to be dismissive, the procedural generation of vegetation, animal life and even ambient sounds in Decima is pretty incredible tech. But it certainly speeds up development/reduces costs. 100M for Forbidden West does seem low though, granted.

 

[Thirty7ven]

And people are worried about this?

Do you know how much movies cost?

200 million will not include marketing. It's never included when they discuss these budget figures and marketing can easily equal development so erecting an big hammer or axe and shite will easily cost another 100 mill.

These games aren't sustainable. I think Sony should rein it in a touch for next gen and not let them inflate the costs again.

Love how people invest in this topic as if there’s a risk here. Sony and other publishers spending money on their games is bad. What the fuck. Ahahahaha

It’s just so weird.

 

[Eotheod]

See that’s even crazier to me - game devs must have low salaries if that $200 million is spread over 4+ years. Like Pixar movies cost $200 million and game development I would think is much harder - sometime they have to have an animated movie within itself (MGS4, Final Fantasy). Video game returns can be insane though - GTA, Skyrim being re released over and over whereas the highest grossing film being around $2.7 billion (thinking Avatar) cost $400 million to make. GTA V must’ve been done insanely well with the online microtransactions too. I don’t blame Take Two for not wanting to kill it

Game development is hard, but it is also produces content at a significantly different pace comparative to film or other media outlets. A week in game development could potentially produce a quest line that offers 30 minutes of playtime, versus days/weeks shooting for 10 minutes of film without possibly including post-production shaping. Game development can also be the complete opposite and take hundreds of hours to produce one item, if you are Star Citizen.

 

[GHG]

Love how people invest in this topic as if there’s a risk here. Sony and other publishers spending money on their games is bad. What the fuck. Ahahahaha

It’s just so weird.

They should spend it on acquisitions instead. That's not risky at all.

 

[RoboFu]

There’s about 100 million in the voice actors at least.

 

[thegame983]

I actually think the bloat is the good part of the game. It's the main quest that was disappointing.

 

[RAIDEN1]

If the latest entry cost that much imagine what the next installment will cost!

 

[DForce]

The quote in the Bloomberg article said what? I would need more than a sentence to make sense of that. I highly doubt the entire conversation is about the color.

We had conversations before and you have a strange habit of ignoring facts.

Hideki Yasuda is your source, and he was the person that was quoted in the Bloomberg article. You have two people criticizing his analysis and it's evident from people who read the report and Sony's statement knows he's wrong.

What's your counterpoint to this?

"Mat is not the only source"
"I highly doubt the entire conversation is about the color."

You're so quick to discredit anything because it's not fitting what you want to say.

Selling the console is more important than selling copies of God of War.

No one is saying Sony won't make their money back.

What we were talking about, earlier, were all this stems from, was how the increase in game development will make it harder and harder to make money from triple-A games. That is not an issue Sony is facing right now but might be at some point.

They wouldn't bundle a game this much unless they knew it would make money in retail.


Does this sound familiar from your source?

November 2020

The Xbox has a chance to make Japan its second-largest market after the U.S. if it takes the right steps for years to come. Sony’s attention is drifting away, and fans have started to notice that.

November 2022

With God of War Ragnarok, Sony's big release for this year, just around the corner, we know that God of War (2018) has managed to surpass 23 million copies sold, impressive numbers. During the quarter under review, more than 62 million games have been sold between PS5 and PS4, 63% of them being in digital format through PlayStation Store.

Unfortunately, the numbers are not what Sony has been expecting and they will have to make adjustments in their next forecasts. “PlayStation software sales continued to be lackluster and still-declining PlayStation Plus subscriber numbers are concerning,” mentioned Hideki Yasuda, Tokyo Securities analyst, to Bloomberg.

Jan 2021

Analyst Hideki Yasuda, writing on the Japanese edition of GamesIndustry.biz, claims that if it follows the current trend then PlayStation 5 sales could end up at ‘less than half of PS4’.

‘Sony might believe that their high-end game experiences are not needed in Japan, where moe is mainstream’, writes Yasuda, as translated by ResetEra.

Now it's outpacing and he didn't really take supply issues as a reason for the decline?

PS5 is outpacing PS4 and PS3 sales in Japan

The new-gen machine is a bit of a sales juggernaut for Sony

www.gamesradar.com

Dude has a history if giving out completely flawed analysis