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Going Clear |OT| Book/Documentary on the Church of Scientology
- Thread starter BertramCooper
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Perfect Blue
Banned
I'm really upset that HBO Canada isn't showing this (and didn't show the Real Time episode when the dude was on). Why am I paying $15/month for this?
BertramCooper
Banned
Well, if it makes you feel any better, at least your country's government doesn't recognize Scientology as a real religion.
BertramCooper
Banned
Yeah, that shit was infuriating.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Guys I'm sorry but this doc has been debunked
http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/videos/exterminating-gibneys-propaganda.html
"Ants"
http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/videos/exterminating-gibneys-propaganda.html
"Ants"
Was only able to half-watch this as there was stuff going on, so I can't actually speak to the quality of the documentary, but I did catch that part
Yeah, if kind of goes over the same stuff most people not living under a rock already know.
I didn't know the girl from Homeland was a potential Cruise gf though lol
Eleven photos of empty movie theater chairs / people sleeping at the movies... what an effective rebuttal.
BertramCooper
Banned
Overall, the doc is excellent, and is a really great companion to the book.
But I do have a few quibbles with the doc:
-I don't think the doc does quite enough to explain the core appeal of Scientology, nor does it provide enough context to help the viewer understand why Dianetics became such a huge success in the early 50s.
-I find it a bit puzzling that Sara Northrup gets significantly more focus than Mary Sue Hubbard. I guess I kind of understand, since Sara documented her abuse in great detail, but it presents a bit of a distorted picture of Hubbard's wives and their importance to his life.
-Speaking of LRH's family, it's very unfortunate that they didn't touch upon the fate of Quentin. Such a devastating and infuriating story.
-But on the subject of LRH, I'm glad they didn't spend too much on him, because Miscavige really needed to be the primary subject of this doc. And he was, so I'm glad.
-All of the talking head interviews were great, save for Jason Beghe. I don't think he provided much useful insight at all.
I'd love to see an extended version of the doc that addresses a few of these issues.
They won't respond at all. They'll let the church do all the dirty work.
But on the subject of Travolta, while the doc strongly suggests that Travolta is gay and being blackmailed by the church, the book all but confirms it.
But I do have a few quibbles with the doc:
-I don't think the doc does quite enough to explain the core appeal of Scientology, nor does it provide enough context to help the viewer understand why Dianetics became such a huge success in the early 50s.
-I find it a bit puzzling that Sara Northrup gets significantly more focus than Mary Sue Hubbard. I guess I kind of understand, since Sara documented her abuse in great detail, but it presents a bit of a distorted picture of Hubbard's wives and their importance to his life.
-Speaking of LRH's family, it's very unfortunate that they didn't touch upon the fate of Quentin. Such a devastating and infuriating story.
-But on the subject of LRH, I'm glad they didn't spend too much on him, because Miscavige really needed to be the primary subject of this doc. And he was, so I'm glad.
-All of the talking head interviews were great, save for Jason Beghe. I don't think he provided much useful insight at all.
I'd love to see an extended version of the doc that addresses a few of these issues.
They won't respond at all. They'll let the church do all the dirty work.
But on the subject of Travolta, while the doc strongly suggests that Travolta is gay and being blackmailed by the church, the book all but confirms it.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
You can black mail an actor, in 2015, for being gay? Have they missed the last 10 years?
BertramCooper
Banned
A gay actor with a wife and kids? Absolutely you can.
Not to mention it's not just the fact he's gay, it's that they have every single bit of his personal life detailed from the 'auditing' bollocks.
Scientology can dump someone's entire private life into the public if they wanted, everything they are embarrassed about, ashamed of, feel guilty over. All of it. It's an incredibly clever way of having a hold over someone, get them to 'confess' it all so they can 'help'.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
If Brad Pitt can leave America's sweet heart than John can leave what's her face. Now, his 'hiding' it's worsening the rumors.
Did anyone watch that documentary and briefly think that Scientology was behind Travolta's kids death. Like, they sunk a few levels of evil while watching that show. Just the gaudy, Trump stage, the fake websites, stalking people with go pro's on their forehead and matching tee shirts?
This seems like a better guess to me. Like Troy McClure said, "Gay? I wish! If I were gay it would be no problem!" I bet there is some embarrassing stuff said in those sessions that anyone would be mortified to share with the world.
BertramCooper
Banned
That's kind of a ridiculous comparison. Travolta has been in a religion that tells its members that being gay is a mental illness and a perversion. In addition to the blackmail, he's been told for nearly four decades that's he's a pervert and Scientology is the means through which he can fix himself.
Directly killing Jett Travolta? Absolutely not. Encouraging his parents to use unscientific, ineffective Scientology methods to deal with his son's illnesses, ultimately contributing to Jett's death? Absolutely.
fixedpoint
Member
Definitely. It's also one of the creepiest damned things I've ever watched, particularly the necromancer's appearance towards the end.
BertramCooper
Banned
So...now what?
Does anyone think we get some tangible good out of HBO airing this doc?
I'm hopeful, but I stop ever-so-short of saying I'm optimistic.
Does anyone think we get some tangible good out of HBO airing this doc?
I'm hopeful, but I stop ever-so-short of saying I'm optimistic.
Maybe I mean they do say the religion is shrinking, I was surprised the membership was only ~50k, and the cats been out of the bag for a long while now with the Xenu shit and more important aspects of rampant abuse and super shady shit going on so it will probably reach a point where it just implodes on itself due to Miscavige being crazy pants. Might take a few years or decades but once something happens to him the shows probably over. He doesn't seem like the type to allow for possible heirs to develop at all so he's likely surrounded by yes men and patsies who won't be able to consolidate power once he's gone.
What's the deal with his wife missing as well? Is that still just hearsay or did she actually pop up out of whatever hole they have her in to prove she's alive and well?
helloresolven
Member
Just finished watching the doc. on HBO GO. What the fuck... how are they allowed to exist?! They're a fucking criminal outfit.
fixedpoint
Member
They are indeed; Miscavige and friends should be in prison.
I think this documentary also highlights some of the reasons why religious organizations, in their current form, should not be tax-exempt in the US.
BertramCooper
Banned
Even if one thinks religious organizations should be tax-exempt, the IRS at least needs to be given the authority to revoke tax-exempt status from religious organizations that are legitimate religions but promote and commit criminal behavior.
Whether or not Scientology is a real religion is certainly up for debate, but the Church of Scientology shouldn't be granted the privilege of tax-exempt status when they operate as a sophisticated crime syndicate.
I'm more concerned with the fact that the whole Religious Organization status allows them to basically be invincible against most lawsuits. They didn't highlight it too much but they made it seem like any case brought against the Church would get tossed out as internal doctrinal conflict and protected by the First Amendment. That's why Marty Rathbun's wife, who wasn't a former member, has a chance of successfully suing Miscavige for the years of harassment and surveillance he's subjected them to. Otherwise that shit would never make it to court. That is just crazy.
BertramCooper
Banned
Yeah, the amount of authority the IRS is ultimately given in determining this shit is absurd.
Even if they are given the the power to grant tax-exempt status, which at least makes a bit of sense, it doesn't make sense that they're given the unilateral authority to bestow the religious legal protections of the first amendment upon religious organizations in matters completely unrelated to taxation.
BertramCooper
Banned
In many ways, yes.
Had they refused to grant Scientology tax-exempt status in '93, the church would have received a bill for $1B+ in back taxes. Had that happened, it would have been a death sentence for the church.
The IRS had the opportunity to kill the church and they cowered under Scientology intimidation tactics.
Man I'm salivating to watch this. I never read the book (didn't know about it!) and last night my wife and I were watching The Walking Dead, so hopefully this week I'll get to check it out.
I read up a lot on Scientology around 2007-2008 when Anonymous was just getting started and didn't have a hundred copycats out there doing total bullshit in their name. Some of the stuff I read was absolutely chilling. I really hope the documentary captures that. What made me rage back then was the absolutely heartbreaking abuse and what seemed like a complete lack of any consequences for those at the highest seat of power in the organization. I really hope the film gets that message across.
I read up a lot on Scientology around 2007-2008 when Anonymous was just getting started and didn't have a hundred copycats out there doing total bullshit in their name. Some of the stuff I read was absolutely chilling. I really hope the documentary captures that. What made me rage back then was the absolutely heartbreaking abuse and what seemed like a complete lack of any consequences for those at the highest seat of power in the organization. I really hope the film gets that message across.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Saw this last night, pretty well done but like others said not a ton of new info.
Hadn't seen any footage of Hubbard before, christ that dude looked like a creepazoid, that lower lip and fucked up teeth made me think of Wormtongue, I must say he had an appropriate appearance for the kind of person he was.
I read about his relationship to Jack Parsons before I knew anything about all the Xenu nonsense or the processing, it seems like he coopted a lot of the same methods occult groups like the OTO used (sans e-meter) for personal/spiritual development, which doesn't make it any less wacky. I think the main thrust here to Scientology's "cosmology" is the idea that if you want to reprogram your brain or make it open to radical personal change as they are advertising, you basically need to embrace something that is completely out of the mainstream thought, something that makes you question everything you've been taught to be true or what is consensus reality.
This isn't a method exclusive to them, it's what is taught across a wide array of occult orders throughout the ages, and of the course the new age movement. It's the idea that they're trying to shock your personal belief system into some kind of reset state in order to fill it up with whatever you're trying to change about yourself, though in the case of cults like them that usually comes with a massive dose of brainwashing and blind allegiance to whatever the hell they tell you. Hence former big wigs saying they actually wanted to be in the Hole despite the terrible conditions. It's scary how easily manipulated the mind can be.
I saw a mini doc about a meditation school that has smaller temples across the US, I believe their HQ is in South Korea and the leader lives somewhere in the US. Anywho former students of the school said that the first stage has you doing all these specific breathing techniques meant to put you into a very calm, sedate, and most importantly compliant state of thinking. Basically they're giving you your buttermilk bath before they douse you with the insanity, and then the rest of the teachings involve typical cult doctrine, the leader is a living god, you must cut off all contact with your family and friends outside the temple etc etc. All these places are designed to draw in people with shaky self esteem, belief systems, what have you. It's those particular psychologies that are the most easily pliable. If you can't tell I find cult psychology fascinating.
The whole grooming that one girl to be Tom's gf was like something out of an ancient Roman harem though, seriously wtf. The story of the woman whose baby was really sick made me extremely angry.
I read about his relationship to Jack Parsons before I knew anything about all the Xenu nonsense or the processing, it seems like he coopted a lot of the same methods occult groups like the OTO used (sans e-meter) for personal/spiritual development, which doesn't make it any less wacky. I think the main thrust here to Scientology's "cosmology" is the idea that if you want to reprogram your brain or make it open to radical personal change as they are advertising, you basically need to embrace something that is completely out of the mainstream thought, something that makes you question everything you've been taught to be true or what is consensus reality.
This isn't a method exclusive to them, it's what is taught across a wide array of occult orders throughout the ages, and of the course the new age movement. It's the idea that they're trying to shock your personal belief system into some kind of reset state in order to fill it up with whatever you're trying to change about yourself, though in the case of cults like them that usually comes with a massive dose of brainwashing and blind allegiance to whatever the hell they tell you. Hence former big wigs saying they actually wanted to be in the Hole despite the terrible conditions. It's scary how easily manipulated the mind can be.
I saw a mini doc about a meditation school that has smaller temples across the US, I believe their HQ is in South Korea and the leader lives somewhere in the US. Anywho former students of the school said that the first stage has you doing all these specific breathing techniques meant to put you into a very calm, sedate, and most importantly compliant state of thinking. Basically they're giving you your buttermilk bath before they douse you with the insanity, and then the rest of the teachings involve typical cult doctrine, the leader is a living god, you must cut off all contact with your family and friends outside the temple etc etc. All these places are designed to draw in people with shaky self esteem, belief systems, what have you. It's those particular psychologies that are the most easily pliable. If you can't tell I find cult psychology fascinating.
Just watched it. Hadn't read the book, so I was pretty impressed with how high up the food chain the defectors that were speaking were. They didn't touch on Miscavige's mysterious situation with his wife, though. Is that covered in the book?
The celebration of the tax exemption, the total capitulation from the IRS. All of that was so obnoxious. It's just a shell corporation at this point.
The celebration of the tax exemption, the total capitulation from the IRS. All of that was so obnoxious. It's just a shell corporation at this point.
BertramCooper
Banned
They touch upon his wife's disappearance in the book, but only briefly.
Thought the doc was great for the most part, have had an interest in Scientology since I interned at a business run by Scientologists (to my surprise once I got there) in the early 00's. I do wish there was less time given to the celeb angle, Scientology itself is much more interesting than tabloid gossip, though that was a big crux of the book so I get why it's there.
Wanted to see them dig further into the nitty gritty of Hubbard's teachings - the lexicon, examples of auditing rundowns, the tone scale, MEST, ARC and KRC triangles. They scratch the surface but don't really explain any of it in great detail, which I find pretty important in understanding how someone gets from a few self help classes to clearing the planet. Also would like to have seen a larger focus on the kids of Scientology who grow up in the system and how it affects their lives. Heartbreaking stuff.
Finally I'm surprised there wasn't more attention given to the disappearance of Shelly Miscavige - of all the disturbing stories about David Miscavige, that's the creepiest of them all as far as I'm concerned. Would rather people be asking about her at the end of the film instead of how Travolta/Cruise were exposed.
Wanted to see them dig further into the nitty gritty of Hubbard's teachings - the lexicon, examples of auditing rundowns, the tone scale, MEST, ARC and KRC triangles. They scratch the surface but don't really explain any of it in great detail, which I find pretty important in understanding how someone gets from a few self help classes to clearing the planet. Also would like to have seen a larger focus on the kids of Scientology who grow up in the system and how it affects their lives. Heartbreaking stuff.
Finally I'm surprised there wasn't more attention given to the disappearance of Shelly Miscavige - of all the disturbing stories about David Miscavige, that's the creepiest of them all as far as I'm concerned. Would rather people be asking about her at the end of the film instead of how Travolta/Cruise were exposed.
Extra Sauce
Member
The doc confirmed a lot of what I already knew or suspected about the Church but I learned much about the individual players. LRH pistol whipping his wife and threatening to kill her, Miscavige's regular physical abuse of members. Jesus Christ! Xenu!
They probably didn't talk about Shelly since that's more hearsay and would be more difficult for HBO's lawyers to defend in court.
But the documentary's stated purpose is to rid it of its tax exemption status. I think it did a fantastic job focusing on how it got that status and why it doesn't deserve it. The nitty gritty details would just confuse and muddle that overall message IMO.
Like, the e-meter stuff. I thought they even spent too much time talking about that. It's so obviously nonsense that they don't really need to go into more detail than they did.
I'm glad they focused on the celebrity angle, because celebrity is Scientology's bread and butter. They wouldn't be anywhere without Travolta and Cruise, and if Travolta and Cruise turned on Scientology, it would be over in no time.
Question - are the ex-Scientologists interviewed for this documentary now liable for prosecution over the things they admitted to? For example, admitting that they were complacent in the abuse of others, lying about certain things, etc.?
But the documentary's stated purpose is to rid it of its tax exemption status. I think it did a fantastic job focusing on how it got that status and why it doesn't deserve it. The nitty gritty details would just confuse and muddle that overall message IMO.
Like, the e-meter stuff. I thought they even spent too much time talking about that. It's so obviously nonsense that they don't really need to go into more detail than they did.
I'm glad they focused on the celebrity angle, because celebrity is Scientology's bread and butter. They wouldn't be anywhere without Travolta and Cruise, and if Travolta and Cruise turned on Scientology, it would be over in no time.
Question - are the ex-Scientologists interviewed for this documentary now liable for prosecution over the things they admitted to? For example, admitting that they were complacent in the abuse of others, lying about certain things, etc.?
I'm just not sure you can walk away from that doc with an understanding of what Scientologists actually believe in with the way it was presented - I've seen a lot of "well the Easter bunny and Jesus sounds crazy too" surface level responses, when it's so much more than a wacky origin story.
The argument against tax exemption status was laid out well, I just don't find that as interesting as examining Hubbard's philosophical concepts, why they're dangerous and how they're effective in shaping the minds of members. Nonsense perhaps, but complex and fascinating nonsense. I also don't see Scientology vs. the IRS part 2 happening anytime soon if ever, though I suppose crazier things have happened.
Edit: This article kind of hits on what I thought was missing (still really enjoyed it overall): http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/03/30/why-its-so-hard-to-beat-scientology/
If anyone's interested, there's a whitehouse.gov petition to remove Scientology's tax-exempt status:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-scientologys-tax-exempt-status
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-scientologys-tax-exempt-status
biosnake20
Member
Really fascinating documentary. Thanks IRS.
The Documentary was good but if you have any knowledge of the organization it was mostly a rehash of common knowledge.
They also skipped over a lot of stuff that was a lot more important then the over focus on the emeters for instance. They avoided talking in depth about Scientology's infiltrating the IRS to steal documents etc. They avoided all the deaths like Lisa McPherson and others.
Yeah you executives got kicked and punched and all that but how about showing some details of those less fortunate. Talk about how they sued the Cult Awareness Network into bankruptcy and then fiendishly took control of the name and turned it into a Scientology arm. That's the kind of knowledge people need to see.
They also skipped over a lot of stuff that was a lot more important then the over focus on the emeters for instance. They avoided talking in depth about Scientology's infiltrating the IRS to steal documents etc. They avoided all the deaths like Lisa McPherson and others.
Yeah you executives got kicked and punched and all that but how about showing some details of those less fortunate. Talk about how they sued the Cult Awareness Network into bankruptcy and then fiendishly took control of the name and turned it into a Scientology arm. That's the kind of knowledge people need to see.
marimorimo
Member
Back in 2003, I was big into self-help and chanced upon a Scientology exhibit at the local school fair. I bought L. Ron Hubbard's book "Dianetics" and was curious enough about it to trek to the other side of the city to find out about Scientology for myself. I was easily impressionable in those days and could be convinced of anything, especially metaphysical stuff.
The Scientology people were pretty new in my country and there were basically only 3 active people on the team. I got along pretty well with them -- they didn't represent themselves as a religion and neither was that my impression after reading the book. They considered Scientology as more of a self-improvement science. It was only much later after researching online that I realized Scientology was in fact a full-blown religion, contrary to my actual impressions.
I was a poor student so I was only able to purchase a few Scientology books and maybe a couple or sessions or so. I considered them as a kind of therapy, especially the "auditing." I had a positive experience with it, going back to an early memory at around 2-3 years old and partially releasing pent-up anger against a perceived slight from my Dad. It was like a kind of very light hypnosis or trance, as I was still fully aware of everything happening and was wary of "losing it." Actually I would like to explore memories again that way. The girl doing the session with me was really into it, though and talked about seeing her past lives and things that happened while she was in the womb.
However I had to cut my sessions short as I was scheduled to study abroad for a year. Before I went the top guy (he was pretty friendly) gave me some second-hand copies of Scientology books, including the famous one about Xenu that talked about events some 30,000 years in the past involving aliens. I read it from cover to cover as I would an SF book. I thought, this person can't be serious, can he?
We lost out of touch while I was abroad but they did send me a letter by post after I came back home. I didn't return as by then I was leery of Scientology but a few years later I "met" the past-life girl on Yahoo Messenger and she told me she had run away from home against her parents' wishes so that she could go and work with Scientologists in Australia. We were both adults by then so I thought, good for her if that's what she wanted.
I'm thinking...if I kept up with Scientology I may have been a bigwig in the Scientology scene in my country LOL.
The Scientology people were pretty new in my country and there were basically only 3 active people on the team. I got along pretty well with them -- they didn't represent themselves as a religion and neither was that my impression after reading the book. They considered Scientology as more of a self-improvement science. It was only much later after researching online that I realized Scientology was in fact a full-blown religion, contrary to my actual impressions.
I was a poor student so I was only able to purchase a few Scientology books and maybe a couple or sessions or so. I considered them as a kind of therapy, especially the "auditing." I had a positive experience with it, going back to an early memory at around 2-3 years old and partially releasing pent-up anger against a perceived slight from my Dad. It was like a kind of very light hypnosis or trance, as I was still fully aware of everything happening and was wary of "losing it." Actually I would like to explore memories again that way. The girl doing the session with me was really into it, though and talked about seeing her past lives and things that happened while she was in the womb.
However I had to cut my sessions short as I was scheduled to study abroad for a year. Before I went the top guy (he was pretty friendly) gave me some second-hand copies of Scientology books, including the famous one about Xenu that talked about events some 30,000 years in the past involving aliens. I read it from cover to cover as I would an SF book. I thought, this person can't be serious, can he?
We lost out of touch while I was abroad but they did send me a letter by post after I came back home. I didn't return as by then I was leery of Scientology but a few years later I "met" the past-life girl on Yahoo Messenger and she told me she had run away from home against her parents' wishes so that she could go and work with Scientologists in Australia. We were both adults by then so I thought, good for her if that's what she wanted.
I'm thinking...if I kept up with Scientology I may have been a bigwig in the Scientology scene in my country LOL.
Watched this the other day, man, every single time I see or read more about Scientology, the whole thing creeps me out more. Horrible cult. I wish the government here would simply ban them.
If even a few people are dissuaded from joining, that's a victory. I don't expect any action by authorities anywhere or anything of the sort.
If even a few people are dissuaded from joining, that's a victory. I don't expect any action by authorities anywhere or anything of the sort.
bodyboarder
Member
Disconnect.
Revolutionary
Member
So just to be clear, the implication was that the head of IRS (at the time that they were granted tax exemption) was a scientologist, correct?
Cruise and Travolta are definitely the top ones that are known, but I'd guess there are a lot more in Hollywood that are part of it that we don't know about yet.
I really need to watch this documentary.
BertramCooper
Banned
Nah, he was just spineless and gave into Scientology's campaign of intimidation.
That said, Scientology almost certainly had operatives within the IRS at the time. They have a history of infiltrating government agencies.
Will Smith and his family are quite obviously Scientologists but won't publicly admit to it. Which perfectly demonstrates how being a Scientologist has gone from being a boon to one's showbiz career to being a stigma.
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