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Going Clear |OT| Book/Documentary on the Church of Scientology
- Thread starter BertramCooper
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That part had me rolling.
Anyway, things like this (scientology) simply fascinate me. I would never buy into it (I hope not), but reading about it is like stepping into a different world. The manipulation tactics are brutal, especially where they have to separate from family (non-believers). I forgot the woman's name, but it was sad when her daughter said that she loves her, but has to stop all contact. It is just a way to keep people to stay in line and not give them a chance to critically think about the bullshit that scientology is feeding them.
I am glad to hear that the members are down to 50k. I am not sure if that is in the US or around the world, since 50k is still pretty low for the US. But I guess with a bankroll of 1.5 billion+, you don't need a ton of members.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Watched this last night. The scene on Anderson Cooper where the 4 ex-wives of the guys who left give the same robotic response about their husbands was eerie. The part where the woman tells the story about her daughter said, "I love you, but I have to disconnect" and she just never saw her again was depressing.
The creator was a modern fiction writer who was dangerously genre savvy. He knew how to string along an audience with fantastical prose from years and years of practice. Before this documentary I didn't know that some of the more far out scientology ideas had already been explored in some of his early sci-fi writing.
The entire religion is designed to keep members focused on just the religion, promote absolute loyalty by destroying individualism, excise people who express critical thinking, and extract (socially) violent revenge on people who quit or talk shit about you so that they cannot badmouth you, ever. I'm sure they practice quite a bit of book burning if the comment about not being allowed to read the internet was true. You know, kind of like radical Islam without the beheadings.*
* We still don't know where Miscavige's wife is, 7 years later. She's the reason Leah Remini left. The celebrity angle was an interesting one, and I'm starting to understand why they're so attractive to the Hollywood elite. Imagine if you were a fledgling Catholic, and the Pope was willing to put you front and center to speak on all things religious, told you that you were on a righteous path, told you that were changing the lives of billions. That kind of power would be intoxicating. Travolta came off much more like a simp and a victim, Cruise came off like a genuine wanker. I can't believe 1990's "To Die For"-era Nicole Kidman nearly fucked him sane.
Then again...
The creator was a modern fiction writer who was dangerously genre savvy. He knew how to string along an audience with fantastical prose from years and years of practice. Before this documentary I didn't know that some of the more far out scientology ideas had already been explored in some of his early sci-fi writing.
The entire religion is designed to keep members focused on just the religion, promote absolute loyalty by destroying individualism, excise people who express critical thinking, and extract (socially) violent revenge on people who quit or talk shit about you so that they cannot badmouth you, ever. I'm sure they practice quite a bit of book burning if the comment about not being allowed to read the internet was true. You know, kind of like radical Islam without the beheadings.*
* We still don't know where Miscavige's wife is, 7 years later. She's the reason Leah Remini left. The celebrity angle was an interesting one, and I'm starting to understand why they're so attractive to the Hollywood elite. Imagine if you were a fledgling Catholic, and the Pope was willing to put you front and center to speak on all things religious, told you that you were on a righteous path, told you that were changing the lives of billions. That kind of power would be intoxicating. Travolta came off much more like a simp and a victim, Cruise came off like a genuine wanker. I can't believe 1990's "To Die For"-era Nicole Kidman nearly fucked him sane.
Then again...
Watched this last night. The scene on Anderson Cooper where the 4 ex-wives of the guys who left give the same robotic response about their husbands was eerie. The part where the woman tells the story about her daughter said, "I love you, but I have to disconnect" and she just never saw her again was depressing.
The creator was a modern fiction writer who was dangerously genre savvy. He knew how to string along an audience with fantastical prose from years and years of practice. Before this documentary I didn't know that some of the more far out scientology ideas had already been explored in some of his early sci-fi writing.
The entire religion is designed to keep members focused on just the religion, promote absolute loyalty by destroying individualism, excise people who express critical thinking, and extract (socially) violent revenge on people who quit or talk shit about you so that they cannot badmouth you, ever. I'm sure they practice quite a bit of book burning if the comment about not being allowed to read the internet was true. You know, kind of like radical Islam without the beheadings.*
* We still don't know where Miscavige's wife is, 7 years later. She's the reason Leah Remini left. The celebrity angle was an interesting one, and I'm starting to understand why they're so attractive to the Hollywood elite. Imagine if you were a fledgling Catholic, and the Pope was willing to put you front and center to speak on all things religious, told you that you were on a righteous path, told you that were changing the lives of billions. That kind of power would be intoxicating. Travolta came off much more like a simp and a victim, Cruise came off like a genuine wanker. I can't believe 1990's "To Die For"-era Nicole Kidman nearly fucked him sane.
Then again...
And this is what is mind blowing, how gullible these celebs are. With it being a well known fact that the creator pulled all of it out of his ass to begin with (and was well capable to do so with his history of science fiction writing, which again is well known), yet they eat it up. I dont know what sort of crazy mental gymnastics one would have to perform in their own mind to ignore that crucial bit of info.
Maybe its like that stage hypnosis crap to some degree, where the subjects want to be apart of it even though they know its bullshit, they just play along to be front and center and feel special. After all actors are always "playing along" in their regular job of acting, pretending, make believe. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch... i feel bad for the people who are born into it though and don't know any better. Shit should be illegal with the treatment their put through.
The Albatross
Member
Probably the top thing that I like about the book, Going Clear, is that it goes into a lot of depth about the seduction of Scientology, both back when Hubbard was introducing it in Dianetics and as it developed into a religion, and even into today.
I've read a lot about Scientology over the last 10+ years, and I always came back to the question of "How could anybody join this and believe this crap..." And I never knew how so many people could be pulled into it. Most criticisms of Scientology on the internet don't go there, they don't try to explain how otherwise intelligent people could be interested in this, but Going Clear does. The formation of Scientology in the 50s and 60s was very much a counter-culture movement like any new age movement, and Lawrence Wright firmly attaches it to that time: it grew when people were looking for answers in post-war boomtowns like Los Angeles, attracted artists, thought leaders, and influencial people who -- partly because of the Scientology training -- were able to become powerful people and recruit more.
I haven't watched the documentary yet but I can't wait to. Scientology was a pop-obsession of mine back in college as a Theology major, and I pretty much dropped the subject when others took it up (when you started seeing South Park, Anonymous, and so on, take the charge in exposing it as the cult it is), but Going Clear, the book, stoked this interest in it and the author does a tremendous job in explaining how people can harmlessly become interested in something like this. And then, through time, not be able to escape. That was something that Operation Clambake (Xenu.net) and other sites were never able to explain to me, but Wright does a good job of showing that the attraction to Scientology for an unaware person is very similar to attraction to anything else... It's not that hard to draw a comparison to things like Shakeology, new fad diet/life style changes, and other movements. One key, critical difference is that Scientology was founded by a pathological liar and quantifiable madman and the Church took on the form of its founder, but at least the initial attraction is understandable.
Of course, it wasn't until the 1990s and really very recently, the mid-2000s, that anybody had any access to OT3 information like Xenu, DC8 Spaceplanes, movie mind-control, and so on, and it wasn't until the mid-2000s that there was any public skepticism of Scientology at large by regular people.
Cults always fascinated me for that reason of how, for all intents and purposes, normal people, often times well educated and successful people, are able to fall victim to these seemingly batshit insane movements that everyone on the outside seem to clearly see as being a joke.
From Jonestown to Scientology to Heaven's Gate and everything fare more mundane and in between. It's no different than a lot of these baptist or evangelical mega churches or store front churches where the pastors claim they can heal you, expel demons, promise you riches and success. Scientology might be one of the biggest, or at least high profile, of these kinds of groups, as well as one of the wackier ones, but they're everywhere and people fall into them every day.
And this bleeds over into so many other aspects of our lives and how people are able to get so wrapped up in fads and beliefs of every variety. It's as if we are predisposed and hardwired to allowing ourselves to be fooled by things.
Also I was surprised that LRH is the most prolific writer on record. I knew he was a writer but I didn't realize he wrote so much.
From Jonestown to Scientology to Heaven's Gate and everything fare more mundane and in between. It's no different than a lot of these baptist or evangelical mega churches or store front churches where the pastors claim they can heal you, expel demons, promise you riches and success. Scientology might be one of the biggest, or at least high profile, of these kinds of groups, as well as one of the wackier ones, but they're everywhere and people fall into them every day.
And this bleeds over into so many other aspects of our lives and how people are able to get so wrapped up in fads and beliefs of every variety. It's as if we are predisposed and hardwired to allowing ourselves to be fooled by things.
Also I was surprised that LRH is the most prolific writer on record. I knew he was a writer but I didn't realize he wrote so much.
BertramCooper
Banned
A big reason why Scientology became so popular among Hollywood actors is because of Milton Katselasa hugely influential and well-respected acting coach. He introduced Scientology to his students and many of them became some of Scientology's most famous adherents.
So while yes, gullibility plays a huge role in Scientology's popularity among actors, it was also because of Katselas and others like him who were pushing people to join, no doubt insinuating (if not outright telling them) that joining Scientology would lead to fame and fortune in showbiz.
Katselas is discussed frequently in the book.
The Albatross
Member
Yeah, that was another thing I didn't know... LRH holds the guinness book of world records as the most publisher author of all time. He was a very successful Science Fiction writer and wrote several novels a month for long periods of time... It's where he got his initial money from.
I won't have HBO until the Game of Thrones premiere, so I downloaded the Going Clear Enhanced Edition e-book. I've been following Scientology for years now, and have a bit of insight because a friend was raised in (and left) the church. Can't wait to watch this, though. About to dive into the book.
I'm looking forward to seeing this, with a weird little personal twist.
Paul Haggis and I are from the same hometown (London, Ontario). He's a little older than I am, but we had a similar local experience with Scientology.
In 1975, Haggis was approached by a 'recruiter' working on a downtown London street corner. The honest fact: As I sit here in my office to write this post, I'm looking down on that very corner. As the story goes, Haggis showed an interest in Dianetics from that point on, and the rest is history.
It was maybe 2 or 3 years later (I was teenager then) when a friend and I were approached on that same stretch of pavement in downtown London one Summer evening. A fellow shoved a pamphlet into our hands and asked us if we'd like to take a 'personality test'. My friend and I were kind of cynical jerks, and said 'yes' just for a laugh - literally.
We followed the dude around the corner to a sort of reading room above a store. We sat at a large table surrounded by shelves of LRH books, and proceeded to work through a VERY long multiple-choice personality test. We weren't the only young people taking the test. There were few other kids, and they looked to be there alone. In hindsight, that was a bad sign.
After almost an hour, my friend and I finished our 'tests'. I don't remember any specific questions, but if you've every done Myers-Briggs or similar, it had that vibe. Funny thing was that we both came to the same conclusion that the whole deal felt weird, almost cultish. We didn't know what Scientology was. I'd heard of Dianetics a little bit, but I kind of put it into the same mental bucket as Transcendental Meditation - harmless hippy stuff. But my friend and I felt that something was off-kilter. We found it kind of funny, actually. Like, how could anyone tale this 'personality test' seriously? I recall we even had a case of the giggles and we made a point of getting the other kids in on the joke. They mostly looked confused, though.
Anyways, the 'recruiter' guy came back to check on us. Finding our tests complete, he wanted our home addresses to send us the results (yeah, right). When he found we were under-18 minors, he got pretty pissed since he'd need our parents' permission to send us test results, etc. We laughed it off with an "oh, well" and then proceeded to leave while talking overly loud about "glad we're not getting brainwashed tonight".
So here's the thing. I didn't buy into the Scientology thing at all that night - not even a little bit. But someone like Paul Haggis - who walked a similar path a few years before me - bought into it totally (until he didn't).
And that just makes me wonder why. Why him? Why not me? Maybe 'Going Clear' will shed some light on that.
One other thing that has always bugged me is not knowing whatever happened to the other kids sitting around the table with me that night back in the late 1970's. I'd like to think they didn't buy into what the 'recruiter' was selling, but I'll never know. And I always wonder if my friend and I shouldn't have just told those kids to get the fuck out.
Paul Haggis and I are from the same hometown (London, Ontario). He's a little older than I am, but we had a similar local experience with Scientology.
In 1975, Haggis was approached by a 'recruiter' working on a downtown London street corner. The honest fact: As I sit here in my office to write this post, I'm looking down on that very corner. As the story goes, Haggis showed an interest in Dianetics from that point on, and the rest is history.
It was maybe 2 or 3 years later (I was teenager then) when a friend and I were approached on that same stretch of pavement in downtown London one Summer evening. A fellow shoved a pamphlet into our hands and asked us if we'd like to take a 'personality test'. My friend and I were kind of cynical jerks, and said 'yes' just for a laugh - literally.
We followed the dude around the corner to a sort of reading room above a store. We sat at a large table surrounded by shelves of LRH books, and proceeded to work through a VERY long multiple-choice personality test. We weren't the only young people taking the test. There were few other kids, and they looked to be there alone. In hindsight, that was a bad sign.
After almost an hour, my friend and I finished our 'tests'. I don't remember any specific questions, but if you've every done Myers-Briggs or similar, it had that vibe. Funny thing was that we both came to the same conclusion that the whole deal felt weird, almost cultish. We didn't know what Scientology was. I'd heard of Dianetics a little bit, but I kind of put it into the same mental bucket as Transcendental Meditation - harmless hippy stuff. But my friend and I felt that something was off-kilter. We found it kind of funny, actually. Like, how could anyone tale this 'personality test' seriously? I recall we even had a case of the giggles and we made a point of getting the other kids in on the joke. They mostly looked confused, though.
Anyways, the 'recruiter' guy came back to check on us. Finding our tests complete, he wanted our home addresses to send us the results (yeah, right). When he found we were under-18 minors, he got pretty pissed since he'd need our parents' permission to send us test results, etc. We laughed it off with an "oh, well" and then proceeded to leave while talking overly loud about "glad we're not getting brainwashed tonight".
So here's the thing. I didn't buy into the Scientology thing at all that night - not even a little bit. But someone like Paul Haggis - who walked a similar path a few years before me - bought into it totally (until he didn't).
And that just makes me wonder why. Why him? Why not me? Maybe 'Going Clear' will shed some light on that.
One other thing that has always bugged me is not knowing whatever happened to the other kids sitting around the table with me that night back in the late 1970's. I'd like to think they didn't buy into what the 'recruiter' was selling, but I'll never know. And I always wonder if my friend and I shouldn't have just told those kids to get the fuck out.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I'm about halfway through this on HBOgo.
I almost feel bad for Hubbard since he clearly seems to have had psychological problems that so clearly were ignored and which, in trying to solve, have hurt so many others
I almost feel bad for Hubbard since he clearly seems to have had psychological problems that so clearly were ignored and which, in trying to solve, have hurt so many others
BertramCooper
Banned
The thing about Haggis is that he's an idealist, but kind of a naive white person sort of idealist. He is deeply concerned about issues like racism and poverty, but he doesn't seem to have a particularly good understanding of them. (I think Crash really exemplifies this.)
Scientology pitches itself to members as being very concerned about issues like this. It's all about curing the world of its ills through rigorous self-improvement. This appealed to Haggis and his concern for social justice. Additionally, he's just kind of a natural contrarian and liked Scientology because it was castigated by society for being weird.
I highly recommend reading the book. It sounds like it would be right up your alley.
RustyNails
Member
Thanks for making the thread. I'm going to watch this tonight and post my thoughts later.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I do too but at the same time its a very Faustian bargain and you have to kind of put some of it on him for taking it.
Well I mean we all know the rumors about a lot of the scientologists,know about the absurdity of Xenu and their torture tactics. What more is there?
This is just a really good 2 hour exploration of its history and its effect on people
adamsappel
Member
Isn't Paul Haggis'...nephew, I think, a GAFer? I recall from a few Scientology threads that there are a couple of GAFers who grew up in the cult.
BertramCooper
Banned
The book and the doc collectively legitimize and mainstream this information in a way that is badly needed.
Wow, really? Usually you have to be in for years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to get that info.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
Wow the church really did some fucked up shit
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
One of the benefits of seeing this doc vs the book is all the footage of Scientology events. My god, they have some of the most spectacularly tacky imagery and design of all time. It's not just that it was the 80s and 90s... It's the worst clothing choices, the worst use of gold orate trimmed podiums and such.... And the fonts... My god the fonts. You can see in the footage from the 2014 event that nothing has changed.
Try not to get douchechills from the We Stand Tall music video. Just try.
Try not to get douchechills from the We Stand Tall music video. Just try.
Yeah the documentary made it pretty clear that the Xenu stuff is handwritten and in a locked suitcase.
Going Clear was HBO's biggest documentary premiere in almost a decade.
That doesn't count HBOGO, DVR and any rebroadcasts.
yeah, going Nazi chic with your public events seems ill advised.
That doesn't count HBOGO, DVR and any rebroadcasts.
yeah, going Nazi chic with your public events seems ill advised.
BertramCooper
Banned
The fact that they went with a lavish celebration in a sports arena to celebrate, of all things, tax-exempt status just kills me.
Such a gigantic middle finger to the IRS.
Yeah, it mentions the history of it in the doc. A big part of it starting up and gaining ground and building a strong foundation seems to be down to good timing. It'd be alot harder, or damn near impossible to get a scam like scientology going now in the internet age.
I gotta pick up this book.
Agreed, Scientology style is hilariously tacky and ostentatious. All their promotional, training and fundraising productions and materials come across as off kilter, wish even more of that made it into the doc.
Miscavige is apparently directly involved with Golden Era Productions, their in house production arm, he obsesses over that stuff. It's mostly staffed with out-ethics members that were sent there to redeem themselves in the eyes of the church after screwing up somewhere else. They're cut off from the outside world, get worked like the Sea Org, produce whatever Miscavage demands, then take the blame when it makes the church look even weirder and more out of touch. I especially like the fact that they have to keep reshooting training materials because the people on film keep leaving and getting branded as SP's.
#AlexGibney's #GoingClear talking heads, insufferable music, way too long...Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...
#AlexGibney's #GoingClear talking heads, insufferable music, way too long...Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...
lol. everything's much more boring from up in OT VIII!
NullPointer
Member
Any chance of this hitting any digital download rental services any time soon?
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
It's a solid but superficial introduction to the cult. I've preferred other Scientology documentaries, many of which weren't as comprehensive in their treatment of the cult but more focused and interesting. I'm very interested in seeing Louis Theroux's upcoming Scientology doc (you can hear Theroux in the background here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrLP-29eTzE)
I thought this was pretty boring which is surprising because I know Lawrence Wright didn't write a boring book. Overall pretty poorly made made up mostly of interviewees no one really gives a shit about. didn't go into any details or unveil anything interesting. Narrator was super corny and felt like something you'd see in a scientology propaganda piece. I thought the paranoma piece from the BBC was much more captivating and insightful.
BertramCooper
Banned
Uhh, what? I'm all for fair criticism of the doc (I've offered plenty of my own already), but I don't know how you can classify people like Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, Paul Haggis and Spanky Taylor as "interviewees no one really gives a shit about."
It was fantastic in the sense they got big names talking. They needed to focus more on the horror side of it all though.
Talk about how they starved a woman to death who tried to get help and let roaches gnaw on her body all the while they drained her bank account before she died then brought her emaciated corpse to the authorities.
Talk about how they starved a woman to death who tried to get help and let roaches gnaw on her body all the while they drained her bank account before she died then brought her emaciated corpse to the authorities.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
His youtube is terrifying.
How the hell is this intimidation not illegal?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=16&v=EG70fhg0wL4
That's the stuff of nightmares. That has to do a number on his mental health. I'm scared of how may who have probably killed themselves due to these actions
this youtube comment is probably too acurate:
Also with the RFRA in Arkansas and Indiana in the news this is interesting
The Albatross
Member
I'm with you on this until you mention Xenu. OT3 and above Scientologists legitimately believe that if you are given information about OT3 earlier than you're supposed to then you will die of pneumonia, so I don't believe that someone gave you information about Xenu or OT3 when you're still being introduced to the religion.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
the schizophrenia comment is spot on. the relentless negative comments combined with the bizarre jargon (suppressive acts, TRs are off the charts, etc.) is extremely off putting.
the sad thing is, those 3 brainwashed creeps were probably on their way back to the hole after that. the woman in that video is one of the ex-wives of those execs, and she looks fucking terrible now compared to how she looked 10 years ago.
here's another creepy video I had saved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y&feature=youtu.be&t=1m58s; I recall this one being very intense too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QGDxnrYqKg
"interbulate"
Heisenberg
Member
I thought it was a really interesting documentary.
I get that those of you that have taken the time to research in the past probably knew most or all of what was covered.
However, I think this did a really great job of getting the point across to a mainstream audience that probably hadn't taken the time to do much research on the subject.
I get that those of you that have taken the time to research in the past probably knew most or all of what was covered.
However, I think this did a really great job of getting the point across to a mainstream audience that probably hadn't taken the time to do much research on the subject.
Man that desperate need to belong to a larger group and then absorb and defend the group's position with all of their might.
Wow
No wonder Miscavige is paving his streets with gold.
and the stupid f-ing IRS
Banana Aeon
Member
I didn't catch the doc, but I read the book. This shit is terrifying, and the government needs to stop these lunatics.
BertramCooper
Banned
Here's the full "We Stand Tall" music video. (Not sure if it's been posted yet.)
Let's take a moment to laugh at the fact that David Miscavige, who is 5'1", commissioned a Scientology anthem titled "We Stand Tall."
Let's take a moment to laugh at the fact that David Miscavige, who is 5'1", commissioned a Scientology anthem titled "We Stand Tall."
The same director made Catching Hell (the story about the guy who accidentally interfered with a fly ball in an important baseball game), which seems to have disappeared from Netflix but I think I saw on youtube.
He also made Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. Both highly recommended.
boredofcanada
Member
Saw about half of it last night and I turned it off out of sheer spite for LRH. I can't stand him at all. He's a complete liar and greed obsessed tool. I really wish the U.S. government would just strip them of their tax exemption.
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