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Got Pulled Over - Had "Furtive Movement" line pulled on me for a "lunge search"

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You're not supposed to ask a cop for their badge number unless you follow it up with an ominous comment like "wait until my uncle hears about this." Anyways, I feel like having cool refreshing Dr. Pepper for some reason. Be safe, OP.
 

Oni Jazar

Member
Congratulations OP on doing just about everything wrong. Good thing you're a white dude.

Protip: Don't give them a reason to hate you. Do whatever you can to end the encounter as quickly as possible.

Sorry op but I agree with this. Sounds like you made a lot of poor decisions that escalated the situation from the moment you didn't stop the car right away.

Good cops or bad cops, don't give them a reason to get upset with you unless they are really past the line or as someone said beyond annoyance.
 
That's one of the things that hinders officers. We constantly train for the worst possible scenario, that we go from 1 to holy shit we're gonna die!!! Without always using common sense along the way.

Do you think this is acceptable? And what's a good way to tell which officers will do this?
 
Reading this thread from a europeans point of view, I dont really get what the OP did wrong. If what he did is in his rights, then he didnt do anything wrong.
I mean he asked for the officers names and they didnt give it to him? I mean that sounds really shady....

Also reading some replies it seems people are legit scared of police officers.
 
Reading this thread from a europeans point of view, I dont really get what the OP did wrong. If what he did is in his rights, then he didnt do anything wrong.
I mean he asked for the officers names and they didnt give it to him? I mean that sounds really shady....

Also reading some replies it seems people are legit scared of police officers.

From and American's point of view, I don't see that he did anything wrong. Cops are government agents with 6 months of training and have less education than I do, not infallible law robots.
 
Always file a complaint. Nothing will happen, but it will go in their file and be taken into account the next time they act like asshole​s. Too many people have horrible experiences with cops and say nothing.
 
Respect goes both ways. I mean if you were actually showing them respect and they were not, then I wouldn't blame you. If you were just being a dick because, well maybe next time don't be?

I think a lot of people feel like cops are some kind of authority figure over them and I imagine some cops feel the same towards civilians, but I don't see it that way at all. We're all human beings and need to treat each other with some simple common decency and crap like this wouldn't happen nearly as often I'd hope. They should of course respect your rights and at the same time you should respect the fact that (ideally) they're just there trying to do their job.
 
You are ignoring the part where driver doesn't do his job and pull over like is supposed to because he is a terrible driver and doesn't notice flashing lights and blaring signal behind him.

Have you ever been pulled over? I don't think I have ever heard sirens blaring when they are doing a simple traffic stop. Sure if they don't get their attention they might turn them on for a few seconds but it's pretty rare.
 

SummitAve

Banned
I pretty much stop at the point where you admit to driving in a manner where you can't see or hear emergency vehicles. The carelessness and lack of consideration in doing so makes it difficult to take your story seriously. Perhaps you could use a lesson in desecalation yourself as your aloof behavior is likely to get you in trouble again.
 

Shadybiz

Member
Didn't ​see it in the OP but why did you get pulled over?

He was speeding (said it somewhere on the 2nd page if you do 50 ppp). So yeah...speeding, and then not pulling over, and then doing stupid shit like putting his hands in his pockets. No wonder they were pissed (saying this as someone who VERY rarely sides with the cops).
 
Ok I'm going to attempt to explain what the officers did and why from my 15 years as a police officer. You can feel free to disagree, and I'm not going to say the officers handled it in the best possible way, but hear me out. I don't normally post in these threads anymore because of the overwhelming anti-cop sentiment (often justifiable, often not) on this board.

A furtive movement is something that appears to a trained officer to be movements that are suspicious and can possibly believed to be trying to conceal something which may be dangerous. You admit that it took you longer to pull over than it should have because you didn't see or hear the officer behind you. Look at this through the eyes of the officer. Most good drivers check their rearview and side mirrors every 5-10 seconds. Couple that with moving to take a drink (which the officer obviously can't see) and you shifting your transmission (again can't see from behind), give the impression that you may be intentionally hiding something before you pull over. That's furtive movement.

Now he asked you to step out of the car because a) the movement could indicate that you were hiding a weapon under your seat (a reasonable assumption based on you not pulling over and your body movement) and b) the officer doesn't need a reason to ask you to step out of the vehicle. We can have ever person get out of the vehicle on every traffic stop if we so choose.

After stepping out of the car, when the officer looked in your window, he was looking at the seat and center console area for anything dangerous or in plain view. He does not need your permission to look in your window. If you were still sitting in your car, would he not be looking in the window to talk to you? Dropping your "I don't consent to any searches" that you learned on YouTube doesn't earn you any points with police.

Now add the fact that you put your hands in your pockets. Officers are trained to watch people's hands very closely. He already believed you might have a weapon in the vehicle, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make the connection that instead of putting a weapon under your seat, you could have also put it in your pants, which is why he yelled at you to not do that. The smartass comment about not wanting to be shot didn't help your case.

There is supreme Court case law on exactly what the officer told you. Just like Terry v Ohio allows pat downs for weapons without probable cause, there is another case that does the same for vehicles. I've never heard of the term "lunge area" but it's more commonly referred to as areas of immediate control. Which from the seat where the person in question was sitting, is anything that is within reach. Typically under the driver's seat, front floor, glove box, center console, and under passenger seat. No warrant or probable cause is needed for these searches for weapons.

The second officer was there because that often happens if another officer happens by during a traffic stop of another officer. Or he could have called for backup since he thought you might have a gun.

So the not pulling over and your body movement from the officers perspective from behind you made him believe you were hiding a weapon. This is called reasonable articulable suspicion and can be used to pat you down or do a protective sweep of your vehicle without your consent.

The key is that the officer has to be able to articulate it. And in this case based on what you admitted to, the officers did meet that threshold of reasonableness.

Now you can argue that they were rude or whatever, but that's secondary to everything else.

Hope that helps

Holy shit! I didn't realize it was illegal to have a gun in America. No wonder all those 2A people are going nuts.

On topic... Don't forget to request to see the officers radar license, no license or lapsed license in my state makes any speeding tickets invalid.
 
Reading this thread from a europeans point of view, I dont really get what the OP did wrong. If what he did is in his rights, then he didnt do anything wrong.
I mean he asked for the officers names and they didnt give it to him? I mean that sounds really shady....

Also reading some replies it seems people are legit scared of police officers.

Many people are afraid of police officers because most of the time they are power hungry assholes(remember bullies from school it's those guys!) with almost no accountability, they will assault and kill people with virtually no repercussions. The police in America are nothing but legal gangsters in most cases.
 

Forearms

Member
Respect goes both ways. I mean if you were actually showing them respect and they were not, then I wouldn't blame you. If you were just being a dick because, well maybe next time don't be?

I think a lot of people feel like cops are some kind of authority figure over them and I imagine some cops feel the same towards civilians, but I don't see it that way at all. We're all human beings and need to treat each other with some simple common decency and crap like this wouldn't happen nearly as often I'd hope. They should of course respect your rights and at the same time you should respect the fact that (ideally) they're just there trying to do their job.

Are you being serious? Police officers, by definition, are the authorities. I'm not sure why you would think they don't have authority over you (unless you're one of those Sovereign Citizen folks).
 

Mascot

Member
I'm a UK citizen and have been stopped for speeding both here at home and while living in Minnesota for a few months. The UK cops were polite and courteous, but the Minnesota cop was an arrogant aggressive fuck whose hand never left his pistol and seemed like he was just waiting for an excuse to use it.
 

ironmang

Member
I don't get the whole "furtive movement" nonsense. If you're speeding the cop should just give you a ticket and fuck off. No need to go fishing.
 

Barzul

Member
Eh sorry but I wouldn't have made the comments you did, almost feel like it would've ended a lot differently. Then again I'm black so there's that. I generally give deference to police, been pulled over 3 times and no issues thus far. I also make the habit of having my wallet outside my pockets when I drive long distances mostly because I don't even want the appearance of me reaching for something.
 
Ok I'm going to attempt to explain what the officers did and why from my 15 years as a police officer. You can feel free to disagree, and I'm not going to say the officers handled it in the best possible way, but hear me out. I don't normally post in these threads anymore because of the overwhelming anti-cop sentiment (often justifiable, often not) on this board.

A furtive movement is something that appears to a trained officer to be movements that are suspicious and can possibly believed to be trying to conceal something which may be dangerous. You admit that it took you longer to pull over than it should have because you didn't see or hear the officer behind you. Look at this through the eyes of the officer. Most good drivers check their rearview and side mirrors every 5-10 seconds. Couple that with moving to take a drink (which the officer obviously can't see) and you shifting your transmission (again can't see from behind), give the impression that you may be intentionally hiding something before you pull over. That's furtive movement.

Now he asked you to step out of the car because a) the movement could indicate that you were hiding a weapon under your seat (a reasonable assumption based on you not pulling over and your body movement) and b) the officer doesn't need a reason to ask you to step out of the vehicle. We can have ever person get out of the vehicle on every traffic stop if we so choose.

After stepping out of the car, when the officer looked in your window, he was looking at the seat and center console area for anything dangerous or in plain view. He does not need your permission to look in your window. If you were still sitting in your car, would he not be looking in the window to talk to you? Dropping your "I don't consent to any searches" that you learned on YouTube doesn't earn you any points with police.

Now add the fact that you put your hands in your pockets. Officers are trained to watch people's hands very closely. He already believed you might have a weapon in the vehicle, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make the connection that instead of putting a weapon under your seat, you could have also put it in your pants, which is why he yelled at you to not do that. The smartass comment about not wanting to be shot didn't help your case.

There is supreme Court case law on exactly what the officer told you. Just like Terry v Ohio allows pat downs for weapons without probable cause, there is another case that does the same for vehicles. I've never heard of the term "lunge area" but it's more commonly referred to as areas of immediate control. Which from the seat where the person in question was sitting, is anything that is within reach. Typically under the driver's seat, front floor, glove box, center console, and under passenger seat. No warrant or probable cause is needed for these searches for weapons.

The second officer was there because that often happens if another officer happens by during a traffic stop of another officer. Or he could have called for backup since he thought you might have a gun.

So the not pulling over and your body movement from the officers perspective from behind you made him believe you were hiding a weapon. This is called reasonable articulable suspicion and can be used to pat you down or do a protective sweep of your vehicle without your consent.

The key is that the officer has to be able to articulate it. And in this case based on what you admitted to, the officers did meet that threshold of reasonableness.

Now you can argue that they were rude or whatever, but that's secondary to everything else.

Hope that helps
Without checking your post history, I am disappointed that someone who can provide​ a reasonable alternative perspective such as this one has been discouraged from posting in these sorts of threads. As a firm BLM supporter, thank you for this post.
 

UCBooties

Member
Holy shit! I didn't realize it was illegal to have a gun in America. No wonder all those 2A people are going nuts.

On topic... Don't forget to request to see the officers radar license, no license or lapsed license in my state makes any speeding tickets invalid.

Depending on the state it may be illegal to have an unlicensed or concealed weapon.

Edit: Also, I can't believe this thread is making me sympathetic to belligerent cops.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
Let be honest. Gaf in no way is mainstream in its views on anything... and I say that as someone who agrees with gaf 90% of the time.
of course it isnt unbiased, however we do have a lot of differing opinions. I bet if i posted this exact same story verbatim on a cop forum 99% of the responses would say i did everything wrong, they would probably tell me i should have consented to a full search of my car, without a warrant. Because cops are literally trained to get you to do and say things to allow your self to be incriminated. Go watch that harvard law video with a professor and defense attorney and then a detective speaking about it. Its a pretty famous video.

Okay, let me clarify my thinking. The OP is a white man who got into a fairly routine traffic stop which he proceeded to escalate for some reason.
Explain to me how i escalated it? Within seconds of him walking to my window he asks me to step out of my car.
I have been pulled over 4 or 5 times in my life, literally every interaction went exactly like this:
officer: good evening/good morning/good afternoon, do you know why i pulled you over
me: no sir/no ma'am
officer: i stopped you for x
me: ok
one time an officer asked:do you have any guns or drugs in your car
me: no sir
officer: can i see your licenses and registration
me: i provide it and they go run it
officer: im going to let you off with a warning/im going to write you a ticket
me: i sign and i go on my merry way.

i have never once ever been asked out of my car for any reason.
Even after spending 5-10 minutes (which allowed me to calm down and cool off) running my license and realizing i have literally no rap sheet, priors, or ever been arrested, he still comes out of his car, combative, argumentative and demanding to search my car.



Didn't ​see it in the OP but why did you get pulled over?
speeding.
 

cwmartin

Member
A furtive movement is something that appears to a trained officer to be movements that are suspicious and can possibly believed to be trying to conceal something which may be dangerous. You admit that it took you longer to pull over than it should have because you didn't see or hear the officer behind you. Look at this through the eyes of the officer. Most good drivers check their rearview and side mirrors every 5-10 seconds. Couple that with moving to take a drink (which the officer obviously can't see) and you shifting your transmission (again can't see from behind), give the impression that you may be intentionally hiding something before you pull over. That's furtive movement.

This is actually kind of crazy. It's only a "Furtive Movement" by your very definition, if it is actually true. If he was hiding something, intentionally taking longer to pull over, etc. That would make the Furtive Movement a fact. In this case he was doing NONE of these things.

This is a case of assuming guilt by the police, which is fucked up.
 

UCBooties

Member
This is actually kind of crazy. It's only a "Furtive Movement" by your very definition, if it is actually true. If he was hiding something, intentionally taking longer to pull over, etc. That would make the Furtive Movement a fact. In this case he was doing NONE of these things.

This is a case of assuming guilt by the police, which is fucked up.

It's not assuming guilt, it's cause for suspicion. The cops have no way of knowing that he just didn't see them and wasn't actively trying to conceal something and have no reason to believe him when he tells them it's all cool. The whole point of the search is to determine that there was, in fact, no attempt to conceal something.
 
This is actually kind of crazy. It's only a "Furtive Movement" by your very definition, if it is actually true. If he was hiding something, intentionally taking longer to pull over, etc. That would make the Furtive Movement a fact. In this case he was doing NONE of these things.

This is a case of assuming guilt by the police, which is fucked up.

Especially since he says the cop couldn't see him drink the soda or use the stick shift. So how did he even see this so called "furtive movement"? If that's the case pulling over and turning your car off, radio etc can be seen as furtive movement. It's bullshit just to exert power and fill a quota.

People need to remember the police are here to protect and serve corporations and government not the people.
 
White and afraid a cop will shoot you for getting your wallet. Come on man no cops gonna shoot you.

All cops aren't the same, you can't blame OP for being afraid of getting shot when he doesn't know what the cop is thinking.
Believe it or or, unarmed white people still get shot by the police as well.
 

Socivol

Member
Sorry this happened to you, but I appreciate you understand that had you been a black or brown person it could have turned out worse. I feel like the only way police reform will ever happen in this country is if cops begin to always be combative and abusive to white people as sad as that sounds. I really don't understand why they insist on escalating situations when they really don't need to. What were they expecting to find in the car anyways?
 
Since coming to the U.S., I've pretty much adjusted to cops being shitty and scary, but I would still go out of my way to charm any cop I interacted with and defuse the situation as much as possible.

Being openly disdainful/challenging with them seems ... not smart.
 
I'm not talking about OP specifically. I'm talking about the general rationale for a police officer searching your glove box without a warrant after you've left the vehicle "for the officer's safety." Ultimately I'm saying that "what if he has a gun in the glove box and he pulls it on me after the stop is complete" is nonsense.

Unless you're arguing that failing to pull over should constitute exigent circumstances for such a search, it's not relevant to what I'm talking about.

If the hypothetical scenario you described happened just like that then there would be no probable cause. Then we would have an issue with officer searching the vehicle. The details you leave out are the inciting cause of the vehicle search so your situation doesn't make sense when you exclude it.
 

Forearms

Member
What is brazenly stupid about what he posted?

Because HeySeuss, being a police officer, should be able to internalize that people are on edge due to the current climate of distrust surrounding law enforcement in the US. Dismissing a real concern isn't the best way to build rapport with the people you've sworn to "serve and protect".
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
OP had weed in the glovebox.
nope
no, I've never smoked weed, or tried any hard drug, never even smoked cigarettes. If they had searched the car, they would have found my laptop bag with two chargers for my surface and hp pavilion, a half empty 32oz dr pepper, a chocolate chip pecan pie for my wife, an empty RTIC 32oz tumbler, my clothes bag contained toiletries, one pair of used boxers, used sox, and shorts, my camera bag, and a bunch of baby shit my wife is planing to give to a friend.

Sorry this happened to you, but I appreciate you understand that had you been a black or brown person it could have turned out worse. I feel like the only way police reform will ever happen in this country is if cops begin to always be combative and abusive to white people as sad as that sounds. I really don't understand why they insist on escalating situations when they really don't need to. What were they expecting to find in the car anyways?
please read to the bottom of my original post.
 

Foggy

Member
What is brazenly stupid about what he posted?

That one specific piece I quoted is the brazenly stupid part. Or brazenly myopic. Brazenly obstinate. You can take your pick.

I appreciate everything else he posted as it provided genuine insight, but dismissing what OP said as "smartass" given the situation and how carefully the "danger" was articulated by him...it's brazenly stupid.
 
You fucking crazy OP?

Never put hands in pockets.

Don't antagonize these crazy mofos.

Asking for names/badge numbers never works.

Contradicting and arguing with them doesn't work. They are full of aggression and pride.

The name of the game is: Get home alive. Not: Prove you're right to the cops. They don't give a shit.

Now if that means I gotta pretend to be meek and submissive and get my ticket and get the fuck out, that's what I'm going to do.

Nuts to that noise.
 

Dali

Member
Dropping your "I don't consent to any searches" that you learned on YouTube doesn't earn you any points with police.

And this, among many other reasons, is why people distrust/dislike cops.

Why would someone need to earn points? Are they "don't falsely arrest" me points? Maybe "don't hide behind your badge and assault or shoot me" points? He should be able to say don't search my shit and the cop should not have his tender feelings hurt and be able to carry on without having a tantrum.

Asserting your rights shouldn't be seen as a bad thing but cops like yourself and your co-workers see it as some sort of challenge and try tp quash it by the behavior you exhibit once someone speaks up. The idea has now permeated society as can be seen by many posts itt. Roll over, spread your cheeks, suck their dick...whatever it takes to get them on their way on you ack home alive.

I'm not saying bending over and taking it isn't sound advice, especially for a black person. I just think it's a fucking tragedy that that statement is true.
 

cwmartin

Member
It's not assuming guilt, it's cause for suspicion. The cops have no way of knowing that he just didn't see them and wasn't actively trying to conceal something and have no reason to believe him when he tells them it's all cool. The whole point of the search is to determine that there was, in fact, no attempt to conceal something.

They also have no idea if he is the largest cocaine smuggler in the country, or if he is an escaped serial killer, or a puppy suffocation enthusiast.
 
Are you being serious? Police officers, by definition, are the authorities. I'm not sure why you would think they don't have authority over you (unless you're one of those Sovereign Citizen folks).

Unless you break the law or they think you may have, A police officer does not have authority over A US citizen.

If they did, they could just make you do anything they want, even if it's illegal, at any time.
 
Unless you break the law or they think you may have, A police officer does not have authority over A US citizen.

If they did, they could just make you do anything they want, even if it's illegal, at any time.

Couldnt you sue them over that?

And a honest question: Do they have to give their credentials/badge number to someone asking? If they refuse that, in Germany you could easily sue them...
 

NandoGip

Member
It's one thing to be justified in your actions but its another thing to not face reality and understand in certain situations it's better to follow the fucked up rules if you want to avoid risking a bad outcome. I'm glad OP was okay, but don't pretend that it's ONLY black/brown people getting their ass's kicked and shot at by cops.
 
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