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Got Pulled Over - Had "Furtive Movement" line pulled on me for a "lunge search"

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Forearms

Member
Unless you break the law or they think you may have, A police officer does not have authority over A US citizen.

If they did, they could just make you do anything they want, even if it's illegal, at any time.

Authority doesn't mean they have to command that you do something illegal... it simply means they can tell you what to do, and you have to comply or risk reprocussions.

As soon as they pull behind you and turn on their lights, they're exerting authority over you.

au·thor·i·ty

noun
1.
the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.
 
Authority doesn't mean they have to command that you do something illegal... it simply means they can tell you what to do, and you have to comply or risk reprocussions.

au·thor·i·ty

noun
1.
the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

That's not how that works. You do know you have these things called rights. You don't have to do whatever police tell you. Jesus Christ your viewpoint is terrifying.
 

MartyStu

Member
Jesus OP, you got a brass pair on you. I really wanted to say that you should have taken your lumps and gone on your way, but fuck it, I respect your position.
 

Forearms

Member
That's not how that works. You do know you have these things called rights. You don't have to do whatever police tell you. Jesus Christ your viewpoint is terrifying.

You don't HAVE to comply. However, if you don't, there are usually reprocussions. Also, if you read the entire thread, I'm on the OPs side. The quoted reply is in rebuttal to those people claiming police officers don't have authority over the citizens of the US, which is incorrect.
 

JoeNut

Member
Ok I'm going to attempt to explain what the officers did and why from my 15 years as a police officer. You can feel free to disagree, and I'm not going to say the officers handled it in the best possible way, but hear me out. I don't normally post in these threads anymore because of the overwhelming anti-cop sentiment (often justifiable, often not) on this board.

A furtive movement is something that appears to a trained officer to be movements that are suspicious and can possibly believed to be trying to conceal something which may be dangerous. You admit that it took you longer to pull over than it should have because you didn't see or hear the officer behind you. Look at this through the eyes of the officer. Most good drivers check their rearview and side mirrors every 5-10 seconds. Couple that with moving to take a drink (which the officer obviously can't see) and you shifting your transmission (again can't see from behind), give the impression that you may be intentionally hiding something before you pull over. That's furtive movement.

Now he asked you to step out of the car because a) the movement could indicate that you were hiding a weapon under your seat (a reasonable assumption based on you not pulling over and your body movement) and b) the officer doesn't need a reason to ask you to step out of the vehicle. We can have ever person get out of the vehicle on every traffic stop if we so choose.

After stepping out of the car, when the officer looked in your window, he was looking at the seat and center console area for anything dangerous or in plain view. He does not need your permission to look in your window. If you were still sitting in your car, would he not be looking in the window to talk to you? Dropping your "I don't consent to any searches" that you learned on YouTube doesn't earn you any points with police.

Now add the fact that you put your hands in your pockets. Officers are trained to watch people's hands very closely. He already believed you might have a weapon in the vehicle, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make the connection that instead of putting a weapon under your seat, you could have also put it in your pants, which is why he yelled at you to not do that. The smartass comment about not wanting to be shot didn't help your case.

There is supreme Court case law on exactly what the officer told you. Just like Terry v Ohio allows pat downs for weapons without probable cause, there is another case that does the same for vehicles. I've never heard of the term "lunge area" but it's more commonly referred to as areas of immediate control. Which from the seat where the person in question was sitting, is anything that is within reach. Typically under the driver's seat, front floor, glove box, center console, and under passenger seat. No warrant or probable cause is needed for these searches for weapons.

The second officer was there because that often happens if another officer happens by during a traffic stop of another officer. Or he could have called for backup since he thought you might have a gun.

So the not pulling over and your body movement from the officers perspective from behind you made him believe you were hiding a weapon. This is called reasonable articulable suspicion and can be used to pat you down or do a protective sweep of your vehicle without your consent.

The key is that the officer has to be able to articulate it. And in this case based on what you admitted to, the officers did meet that threshold of reasonableness.

Now you can argue that they were rude or whatever, but that's secondary to everything else.

Hope that helps

Best post possible on this thread. I hope you aren't discouraged from posting more often
 

pompidu

Member
He was speeding (said it somewhere on the 2nd page if you do 50 ppp). So yeah...speeding, and then not pulling over, and then doing stupid shit like putting his hands in his pockets. No wonder they were pissed (saying this as someone who VERY rarely sides with the cops).

I'm on mobile so it's 50 PPP. I could imagine being a cop and being pissed someone was speeding and not pulling over. It would also make me super cautious.
 

BigDug13

Member
It may have already been asked but I don't want to sift through. What's a "lunge search"? Google wasn't much help on this one.
 

UCBooties

Member
They also have no idea if he is the largest cocaine smuggler in the country, or if he is an escaped serial killer, or a puppy suffocation enthusiast.

What does any of that have to do with whether or not the OP's actions at the time of the stop gave the officers reasonable cause to suspect he was attempting to delay the stop or conceal something?
 

Forearms

Member
What does any of that have to do with whether or not the OP's actions at the time of the stop gave the officers reasonable cause to suspect he was attempting to delay the stop or conceal something?

This. Also, what is the purpose of assuming the person is a "baddy" from the start? To justify a comabtive attitude from the get go?
You can be alert/cautious without assuming the person you're about to pull over is up to no good.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
They also have no idea if he is the largest cocaine smuggler in the country, or if he is an escaped serial killer, or a puppy suffocation enthusiast.

you're absolutely correct, to him I could be the largest cocaine smuggler in the country. Right up until he ran my license and my plates and found literally nothing. Then still demanded to search my car.
 

Socivol

Member
nope


please read to the bottom of my original post.

I did read it and I referenced the fact that you said that it could've gone sideways if you were a black or brown person. I wasn't accusing you of anything I just don't understand what the cop was expecting to find and why he was so intent on searching.
 
Honestly, it seems like you're spending about 1-2 seconds checking all 3 mirrors every 5 seconds, which to me means your eyes are off the road 20-40% of the time. I'm probably getting off topic here, but I'm not convinced that religiously checking mirrors prevents accidents - obviously, if you're planning on switching lanes or anything along those lines you need to check your mirrors and blindspots, but when simply cruising ahead? I can't see the benefit. I'll look into it more though to see if there are any good studies or reports about the benefit of looking around you every 5 seconds.

What exactly do you think we're looking at in our mirrors; ourselves? The road is not just in front of you, it's behind you and to your sides, and hazards can come from any direction. Ignoring 75% of your surroundings because you're moving forward and assume that nothing else can come from anywhere but in front of you is a terrible driving practice. Case in point; the OP, not knowing he was being pulled over because he didn't bother to check his mirrors and couldn't hear the siren over his radio. Situational awareness is a good thing to try and maintain when engaging in an activity that kills or injures millions of people every year.
 
That's not how that works. You do know you have these things called rights. You don't have to do whatever police tell you. Jesus Christ your viewpoint is terrifying.

You do have rights but driving a vehicle is a regulated activity. Cops have certain powers to stop people, ask for ID and ask questions. If you're going to play hardball with the cops you had better make sure you know to what extent you have to comply. It is better to be cooperative with them but politely assert your rights if you feel they are infringing, rather than immediately taking an adversarial position.
 

cwmartin

Member
What does any of that have to do with whether or not the OP's actions at the time of the stop gave the officers reasonable cause to suspect he was attempting to delay the stop or conceal something?

Because he wasn't doing any of those things. He wasn't concealing any objects, nor was he acting as if he was hiding something in his vehicle. The police are incorrect to assume his movements were Fertive.
 
I love how cops have to obey the law unless they don't want to. Things like furtive movement are the biggest loads of bullshit ever. Just strip citizens of their rights and be done with it if your just going to hand wave obeying the law regardless.
 

Koomaster

Member
I have no idea why anyone would want to piss off cops over a traffic stop unless you actually had something illegal in your car. So they are rude to you and asked you to step out of your vehicle - like whatever. Search all you want, give me a ticket if you must and let me go about my day.

What rights am I giving up by complying with their requests to search my car? If they want to filthy their hands digging at the random debris that falls under my car seat - go ahead. Oh noes, hope they don't find my car owner's manual I have hidden in my glove box. Oh shit I got some foldout lawn chairs in my trunk, please don't take me to jail! I want your badge number, I have 5 pennies in my cup holder, they better still be there officer! xD
 

Negaduck

Member
The post from the officer explained a lot. Thanks for that!

My only question is the officer's refusal to give you their badge number. Is that something officers can refuse to give?

Just curious about that aspect. The rest of the officer's reactions make sense after the earlier post in the thread.
 

Forearms

Member
I have no idea why anyone would want to piss off cops over a traffic stop unless you actually had something illegal in your car. So they are rude to you and asked you to step out of your vehicle - like whatever. Search all you want, give me a ticket if you must and let me go about my day.

What rights am I giving up by complying with their requests to search my car? If they want to filthy their hands digging at the random debris that falls under my car seat - go ahead. Oh noes, hope they don't find my car owner's manual I have hidden in my glove box. Oh shit I got some foldout lawn chairs in my trunk, please don't take me to jail! I want your badge number, I have 5 pennies in my cup holder, they better still be there officer! xD

Seems like you don't care if your privacy is invaded. That's great. Some people just don't want people going their shit "just because they asked". What happens if something is damaged by the officer during the unwarranted search? Why should your personal belongings be at the mercy of a stranger that just pulled you over?
 

ArjanN

Member
From and American's point of view, I don't see that he did anything wrong. Cops are government agents with 6 months of training and have less education than I do, not infallible law robots.

I get where the OP is coming from, but from a pragmatic point of view it still seems like a dumb way to act.

Yes, technically you might be in the right, but in practice acting that way is likely just going to escalate the situation, whereas if you just sit there and nod with a dumb look on your face, you're probably out of there 2 minutes later with just a warning.
 

hampig

Member
Ok I'm going to attempt to explain what the officers did and why from my 15 years as a police officer. You can feel free to disagree, and I'm not going to say the officers handled it in the best possible way, but hear me out. I don't normally post in these threads anymore because of the overwhelming anti-cop sentiment (often justifiable, often not) on this board.

A furtive movement is something that appears to a trained officer to be movements that are suspicious and can possibly believed to be trying to conceal something which may be dangerous. You admit that it took you longer to pull over than it should have because you didn't see or hear the officer behind you. Look at this through the eyes of the officer. Most good drivers check their rearview and side mirrors every 5-10 seconds. Couple that with moving to take a drink (which the officer obviously can't see) and you shifting your transmission (again can't see from behind), give the impression that you may be intentionally hiding something before you pull over. That's furtive movement.

Now he asked you to step out of the car because a) the movement could indicate that you were hiding a weapon under your seat (a reasonable assumption based on you not pulling over and your body movement) and b) the officer doesn't need a reason to ask you to step out of the vehicle. We can have ever person get out of the vehicle on every traffic stop if we so choose.

After stepping out of the car, when the officer looked in your window, he was looking at the seat and center console area for anything dangerous or in plain view. He does not need your permission to look in your window. If you were still sitting in your car, would he not be looking in the window to talk to you? Dropping your "I don't consent to any searches" that you learned on YouTube doesn't earn you any points with police.

Now add the fact that you put your hands in your pockets. Officers are trained to watch people's hands very closely. He already believed you might have a weapon in the vehicle, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make the connection that instead of putting a weapon under your seat, you could have also put it in your pants, which is why he yelled at you to not do that. The smartass comment about not wanting to be shot didn't help your case.

There is supreme Court case law on exactly what the officer told you. Just like Terry v Ohio allows pat downs for weapons without probable cause, there is another case that does the same for vehicles. I've never heard of the term "lunge area" but it's more commonly referred to as areas of immediate control. Which from the seat where the person in question was sitting, is anything that is within reach. Typically under the driver's seat, front floor, glove box, center console, and under passenger seat. No warrant or probable cause is needed for these searches for weapons.

The second officer was there because that often happens if another officer happens by during a traffic stop of another officer. Or he could have called for backup since he thought you might have a gun.

So the not pulling over and your body movement from the officers perspective from behind you made him believe you were hiding a weapon. This is called reasonable articulable suspicion and can be used to pat you down or do a protective sweep of your vehicle without your consent.

The key is that the officer has to be able to articulate it. And in this case based on what you admitted to, the officers did meet that threshold of reasonableness.

Now you can argue that they were rude or whatever, but that's secondary to everything else.

Hope that helps

Awesome post, thank you.

I get why OP acted the way he did with the climate around the police right now and everything you see on social media. There's a lot of confusion, fear, and misinformation surrounding the police, everyone reacts differently. Really though, cops are just people too, you can't treat them all like killers. I have a lot of cop friends, and I can say that some of them are worms, but a large majority of them are great people.
 
Yeah I'mma take you at your word that dude was rude or aggressive or intimidating, but the actual rundown of events is pretty reasonable on the police end.

The officer probably went into a defensive the mode the moment OP told him he couldn't search his car. They are in fact trained to flag for this kind of behavior and it does in fact escalate situations. OP likely escalated the entire thing himself. Every "let me see your badge ID" or "no consent" just sent it spiraling into backup, a supervisor and somehow the OP is standing around wondering what went wrong.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
Seems like you don't care if your privacy is invaded. That's great. Some people just don't want people going their shit "just because they asked". What happens if something is damaged by the officer during the unwarranted search? Why should your personal belongings be at the mercy of a stranger that just pulled you over?

not only that, go look at all the civil forfeiture bullshit. What if i had a few grand in cash that they found? They could claim it was to buy drugs with and seize it, legally, and i would spend exponentially more money fighting to get it back. This is(Carrying cash around) something i've been doing lately as i've been paying contractors at my old house to fix it up.
 
I used to act like the OP did when I was 18 or 19, and it resulted in me getting searched and spending more time on the side of the road than I should have.

Last year, I got pulled over three separate times in Virginia(once for speeding, once for an illegal U turn near the interstate, and one for driving slow on the beltway at 2am) and all three times I had my ID in my hand ready to show the officer, called the officers "sir," and was otherwise polite and to the point. None of the officers made me leave the car or did anything rude, and I was on my way a lot faster as a result than when I was 18 and acting like a jerk.(note:i realize being courteous is no guarantee of a pleasant encounter, I just wanted to contrast the experiences I had when I was polite vs when I was not; although being polite to people in general, not just cops, usually goes a long way)


The post from the officer explained a lot. Thanks for that!

My only question is the officer's refusal to give you their badge number. Is that something officers can refuse to give?

Just curious about that aspect. The rest of the officer's reactions make sense after the earlier post in the thread.

There's no law requiring officers to produce badge numbers on demand, although in this case I believe OP said the officer wrote it on the ticket.

Also while the officer will produce the radar in court if challenged, theyre not required to show it to you on the side of the road.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
Last time someone got caught doing "furitive movements":

latest
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
I used to act like the OP did when I was 18 or 19, and it resulted in me getting searched and spending more time on the side of the road than I should have.

Last year, I got pulled over three separate times in Virginia(once for speeding, once for an illegal U turn near the interstate, and one for driving slow on the beltway at 2am) and all three times I had my ID in my hand ready to show the officer, called the officers "sir," and was otherwise polite and to the point. None of the officers made me leave the car or did anything rude, and I was on my way a lot faster as a result than when I was 18 and acting like a jerk.
Explain to me how i escalated it? Within seconds of him walking to my window he asks me to step out of my car.
I have been pulled over 4 or 5 times in my life, literally every interaction went exactly like this:
officer: good evening/good morning/good afternoon, do you know why i pulled you over
me: no sir/no ma'am
officer: i stopped you for x
me: ok
one time an officer asked:do you have any guns or drugs in your car
me: no sir
officer: can i see your licenses and registration
me: i provide it and they go run it
officer: im going to let you off with a warning/im going to write you a ticket
me: i sign and i go on my merry way.

i have never once ever been asked out of my car for any reason.
Even after spending 5-10 minutes (which allowed me to calm down and cool off) running my license and realizing i have literally no rap sheet, priors, or ever been arrested, he still comes out of his car, combative, argumentative and demanding to search my car.
read. My typical interaction with police is vastly different. As i've stated before, before he ever said what he pulled me over for, he asked why did i take so long to pull over and to step out of the vehicle, within 10 seconds of him walking up to my window.
 
read. My typical interaction with police is vastly different. As i've stated before, before he ever said what he pulled me over for, he asked why did i take so long to pull over and to step out of the vehicle, within 10 seconds of him walking up to my window.

Yes, and the escalation started when 1)you didnt pull over right away and 2)asked WHY to the FIRST thing they asked you to do.

the "escalation" continued when you 3)started telling him he couldnt look into your window and 4)put your hands in your pockets and 5)smart off about not wanting to get shot.

I hope that answers your "Explain to me how i escalated it?" bit, and Im just going through the first third of your post for that.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
Yes, and the escalation started when 1)you didnt pull over right away and 2)asked WHY to the FIRST thing they asked you to do.

not pulling over was not inentional, a quick conversation could have assuaged the officer of that, instead before i even finished answering he just ordered me out of the car. And asking why to an officer is escalating? Get fucked. They are authority figures but they aren't beyond reproach.
 
not pulling over was not inentional, a quick conversation could have assuaged the officer of that, instead before i even finished answering he just ordered me out of the car. And asking why to an officer is escalating? Get fucked. They are authority figures but they aren't beyond reproach.

officers don't want to hear "why" they want to hear "yes sir, no sir." your time and venue to challenge is in court, and they can and will ask you to get out of the car during a traffic stop if you do something, like i dont know, not pull over. and thanks for directing profanity at me for answering your question, i cant imagine why the officers didnt like you.
 

Forearms

Member
officers don't want to hear "why" they want to hear "yes sir, no sir." your time and venue to challenge is in court, and they can and will ask you to get out of the car during a traffic stop if you do something, like i dont know, not pull over. you get fucked, i was only answering your questions.

...this is the problem. They're not above answering clarifying questions, and I have to believe you're joking when you say things will be sorted out in court when they've already created a narrative against you before the court date arrives.
 

cwmartin

Member
officers don't want to hear "why" they want to hear "yes sir, no sir." your time and venue to challenge is in court, and they can and will ask you to get out of the car during a traffic stop if you do something, like i dont know, not pull over. and thanks for directing profanity at me for answering your question, i cant imagine why the officers didnt like you.

lol, who gives a fuck what they want to hear?
 
officers don't want to hear "why" they want to hear "yes sir, no sir." your time and venue to challenge is in court, and they can and will ask you to get out of the car during a traffic stop if you do something, like i dont know, not pull over. and thanks for directing profanity at me for answering your question, i cant imagine why the officers didnt like you.
I don't see any "protect and serve" here.

You sure you haven't gotten wildly off-base regarding the role and function of the police force? Who's talking to you and who are you talking to about the purpose of the police, usually?
 

TSM

Member
From the officer's point of view:

1) Attempts to routinely pull over a speeder.
2) Observes someone ignoring his attempt to pull them over.
3) Observes them reaching around the center console area of the vehicle before finally pulling over.
4) Asks them the most obvious question which is why they didn't pull over immediately.
5) Asks them to exit the vehicle, and gives them a valid reason (furtive movements).
6) Attempts to look inside the vehicle and immediately receives demands that he not search the vehicle.

This reads like a how to list on making yourself seem as suspicious as possible during a routine police stop.
 

ironmang

Member
officers don't want to hear "why" they want to hear "yes sir, no sir." your time and venue to challenge is in court, and they can and will ask you to get out of the car during a traffic stop if you do something, like i dont know, not pull over. and thanks for directing profanity at me for answering your question, i cant imagine why the officers didnt like you.

Why does it matter if it took him a few extra seconds to pull over if he wasn't trying to escape? It's amazing the dumb justifications they use that people just eat up.
 
Tbh while readong that opening all I could think is "man this guy gon get shot". I'm like actually in awe you really aint catch no real heat tbh.
 

Nevasleep

Member
You didn't really use that white privilege too well, i'd have just been friendly, although heat of the moment can change things I guess.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
read. My typical interaction with police is vastly different. As i've stated before, before he ever said what he pulled me over for, he asked why did i take so long to pull over and to step out of the vehicle, within 10 seconds of him walking up to my window.

You seriously can't understand why not pulling over immediately can make a cop suspicious?

Cop asks you to step out and you say "why?"

Like do you have any self awareness at all?
 
You seriously can't understand why not pulling over immediately can make a cop suspicious?

Cop asks you to step out and you say "why?"

Like do you have any self awareness at all?

I don't understand what is so wild about quetioning why you need to get out of your car. I am fully aware the police can ask you to get out of your car just because.

Which is why I dont fucking get why they never just say "its just a precaution to ensure your safety and mine". They are not Gods, they can answer basic questions to the general public. Wtf is "furtive movements" suppose to mean? What does that accomplish on a basic trafic stop? Why are they avoiding giving badge numbers?

I mean I'm black so I know in the US to just stfu lest I end up on a t-shirt but some of the most basic stuff to deescalate situations are not practiced by police.
 

Aytumious

Banned
From the officer's point of view:

1) Attempts to routinely pull over a speeder.
2) Observes someone ignoring his attempt to pull them over.
3) Observes them reaching around the center console area of the vehicle before finally pulling over.
4) Asks them the most obvious question which is why they didn't pull over immediately.
5) Asks them to exit the vehicle, and gives them a valid reason (furtive movements).
6) Attempts to look inside the vehicle and immediately receives demands that he not search the vehicle.

This reads like a how to list on making yourself seem as suspicious as possible during a routine police stop.

And this is his rosy, after the fact version of the story that is almost certainly more favorable towards him than how it actually went down.
 

Forearms

Member
I replied about how to avoid escalation. The proper role of police in society is another debate.

Except asking questions shouldn't be qualified as "escalating" the situation. Based on the OP, he didn't refuse to step out of the car, but simply asked why he was being asked to step out of the car. It would be great if these police officers, who are "just humans like you and me", as other people keep saying in their defense, would act like it.
 

Koomaster

Member
Seems like you don't care if your privacy is invaded. That's great. Some people just don't want people going their shit "just because they asked". What happens if something is damaged by the officer during the unwarranted search? Why should your personal belongings be at the mercy of a stranger that just pulled you over?
What are you keeping in your car at risk of being damaged? Faberge eggs under your seats? Set of glass mugs on your floorboard?

You act like a police officer is going to just be tossing stuff out of your car on the side of the road. I don't get it I guess. I'm not storing valuable stuff in my car that needs to be handled like it's going to a museum. The opposition from this just seems to be don't handle my stuff cuz it's my stuff with no concern that police officers may have to search cars for actual reasons.
 

R0ckman

Member
Pisses me off, this is why its so dangerous to let these guys get away. You did EXCELLENT OP. Guys sound like straight thugs.
 
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