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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
arkhamguy123
Member
Holy fuck that inside the volcano dungeon in FF16. Game is really growing on me visually
This section probably has the highest looks next gen:looks PS4 ratio in the whole game. Talk about blurring the line between cgi and video games. Extremely impressive stuff goin on
This section probably has the highest looks next gen:looks PS4 ratio in the whole game. Talk about blurring the line between cgi and video games. Extremely impressive stuff goin on
arkhamguy123
Member
We agree on a lot. But we will never agree on TLOU1 and Spider-Man 2 haha
arkhamguy123
Member
SlimySnake
i arrived at your aforementioned “order 1886” looking quest in FF16 in the city with all the nice canned destructionReally impressed. I’m starting to think they spent their entire graphics budget on the 2nd half of this game? This is awesome. Call me crazy but I love seeing the little frame dips when I pack on the most geometry and tessellated walls on screen. Shows that the PS5 is indeed being pushed just a bit here.
Also goes to show getting an offline render kind of gorgeous look is about more than bright vibrant colors and aggressive lighting that makes you wanna put on sunglasses (HZ2) cause this whole color palette is gray gray gray. Gray skies and gray buildings and yet the soft lighting makes it look very next gen aesthetically pleasing
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
Truer words have NEVER been spoken! I've come to suspect that games like GoW and Horizon just throw so many lights around a scene to make up for deficiencies that come from not having render budget or even the necessary hardware for shadows/GI. Sure they can look bombastic, striking, etc. but they are also the cause of alot of ugliness. That is why I'm so happy with a game like FF16; it's soooo far from perfect but they understood the power of ambient lighting and shadows during the game's most iconic moments. Dammit I'm ready to play games built with completely new rendering pipelines these consoles were designed for. I still believe that Cerny RT patent from last year was applicable to the PS5 and not just the PS5 Pro. The waiting game is getting beyond tiresome at this point.
GymWolf
Gold Member
So even fucking worse, thanks for proving my point.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
Please don’t we’ve all seen enough close ups of Elly and Alloy it’s becoming a tad creepy…
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
It didn’t have to be. Demon souls is also a copy pasta of a ps3 game but it still looks incredible and a Gen above elden ring, bloodborne and ds3.
Part 1 is held back by some very poor art direction and lighting choices. So many levels feature lighting that screams ps3 Gen. I get trying to stay true to the original but my god it is way too familiar even when they change the lighting.
There is no way naughty dog developers went with those lighting choices. It has to be the vsg team. Either that or they have no idea how to do these kind of remakes. Simply copy pasting with better looking assets and lighting isn’t enough. You have to do a full makeover. It feels way too familiar. There is not a single level that looks as good as that forest level, or the island levels with abby or the Seattle day 2 suburb levels with Ellie. The lighting in Pittsburgh, bill’s town and Tommy’s Dam should’ve been lifted straight out of tlou2. It just looks off. Boston looks the best but still pales in comparison to the best areas in tlou2.
I these gifs just kind of illustrate my point. The lighting and assets might be PS4 gen, but it still retains that PS3 look because of the choices made when lighting the scene.
You have to change the entire look of the game. Simply replacing assets is not good enough.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
This is honestly refreshing and the biggest 180 I've seen anyone do on this forum since ChiefDada went from calling Insomniac hacks to calling gamers clueless. Am glad you gave the game a legit shot. It can indeed look amazing at times.
Really impressed. I’m starting to think they spent their entire graphics budget on the 2nd half of this game? This is awesome. Call me crazy but I love seeing the little frame dips when I pack on the most geometry and tessellated walls on screen. Shows that the PS5 is indeed being pushed just a bit here.
Also goes to show getting an offline render kind of gorgeous look is about more than bright vibrant colors and aggressive lighting that makes you wanna put on sunglasses (HZ2) cause this whole color palette is gray gray gray. Gray skies and gray buildings and yet the soft lighting makes it look very next gen aesthetically pleasing
That said, I dont think the 2nd half of this game is all that great. A lot of really bad quests that seemed like they were designed by the MMO team. Some really poor character models for new characters, and cities. Honestly, i saw better desert cities in AC Origins back in 2017. The game is simply inconsistent as fuck. I used to give HFW shit for being 80% gorgeous and 20% fugly, but this is like 40-60 beautiful vs just plain average. I just unlocked a new room in my base after what felt like 10 fetch quests, and its honestly the ugliest room ive seen. Why people dont get my ps3.5 comparisons is beyond me. Last gen rooms dont look like that.
There is probably an amazing 20 hour game in here, but they wanted to make a 50-60 hour game that they simply didnt have the resources to do. I bet the A team worked on the big setpieces, story missions and cutscenes while the interns and junior devs were told to craft a giant open world. Honestly, it hurts the story too. Every time i get into the game, the game pauses to introduce new side missions and characters and im like lets fucking go.... Get a move on.
arkhamguy123
Member
Haha yeah chiefdada becoming an insomniac apologist was wack as hell
As for everything else yeah exactly right. This pacing is atrocious. Just finished the Titan fight and it was so cool but honestly it’s becoming harder and harder to be enthused with these S tier moments because they’re becoming farther and farther apart. I was at the edge of my seat the first half of the game and now a lot of cutscenes I’m on my phone not paying attention because it’s just so mind numbingly dull with these fetch quests.
Even my gf is noticing it and called it “excessive padding”. I want to see the market research that normies really want these bloated as fuck 30hr experiences and not vastly more exciting shorter experiences. Because there has to be copious amounts for these publishers to keep ordering devs to do this. I’d have to think most casuals who don’t give a fuck about gaming and just clock into their 9-5s want something a little more… compact? Cause it’s ballooning the fuck out of budgets and dev time. Bring back shorter games
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Agreed. I also found myself browsing gaf during those fetch quests dialogue scenes. Now i just skip them and only watch cutscenes they bothered animating.
P.S This is exactly what I was saying a few pages back when I said graphics are not the primary reason game dev costs are spiraling out of control. these graphics look like PS3 quality at times, but the game took almost a decade to make anyway. its graphics + mindless side quests + dialogue+scripting+voice acting+ mocap+ everything else that goes into creating these 60 hour games.
Alex11
Member
You guys are bashing too much TLOU part 1, IMO is a gorgeous game, the lighting is amazing, yeah sure, you can find areas or things that the game does poorly, but it doesn't strike me as outdated look or something.
90% of the interiors look very good and have such a natural light to them.
90% of the interiors look very good and have such a natural light to them.
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Lethal01
Member
You have to change the entire look of the game. Simply replacing assets is not good enough.
I much prefer the more faithful approach, The demon's souls remake
Artistically sure, technically the current console just don't got the juice.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
What makes you say that? the consoles ran the Matrix demo at 1620p-1080p. And it was CPU bound due to all the traffic. This thing ran just fine on my 3080 at native 4k. I dont have the exact framerate count because MSI Afterburner crashes UE5 stuff for me, but it didnt feel sub 30 fps.
I dont see why this couldnt run on the PS5 and XSX at 1440p 30 fps. Matrix ran fairly identical on comparable AMD and Nvidia GPUs. Lumens doesnt seem to favor Nvidia's RT implementation.
Edit: Just ran it with the nvidia geforcenow fps counter and i was getting 28-29 fps with some areas going above 40 but mostly stayed in the 28-33 fps range. A slight 2-3 fps drop when i enabled shadowplay to record the video i am uploading now. pretty sure the UE5 editor has a performance hit too. consoles should be able to do this with a drop down to 1440p with drs to 1080p.
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Ok, this was comedy gold. I am laughing so hard
ChiefDada was something else during the Spidey 2 apocalypse. He even created a whole thread convincing gamers why they are clueless for thinking Spidey 2 was an average looking game after he went ballistic on Insomniac half an hour prior.
arkhamguy123
Member
Insomniac sent a g-man to his house and they did some CIA classified hypnosis blue book shit on himOk, this was comedy gold. I am laughing so hard
ChiefDada was something else during the Spidey 2 apocalypse. He even created a whole thread convincing gamers why they are clueless for thinking Spidey 2 was an average looking game after he went ballistic on Insomniac half an hour prior.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Ok, this was comedy gold. I am laughing so hard
ChiefDada was something else during the Spidey 2 apocalypse. He even created a whole thread convincing gamers why they are clueless for thinking Spidey 2 was an average looking game after he went ballistic on Insomniac half an hour prior.
That was very strange
Because visually it's 1:1 of its PS4 sequel while being current gen exclusive. This is a thread about graphics after all, expecting people to not go hard on current gen exclusives that look like last gen games is highly unreasonable.
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Grildon Tundy
Gold Member
I think TLOU Pt 1 was meant to reach parity with TLOU2 and could've ran on PS4 at lower resolution/framerate. But Sony wanted to move PS5's and pushed for it to be exclusive. Which results in people being disappointed with it. And I agree--it looked good because so does TLOU2 with the PS5 patch, but it could've looked better.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
I believe this.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Very high Geometric density + good lighting = CGI. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 in overdrive, FF16 (Geometric density could be higher), TLOU 2 (some parts), The Matrix Awakens or HFW. The Nvidia cars demo is next Level. All of these current gen games have too low geometric density in some parts (even the most elite games like HFW, FF16, TLOU2, Spiderman MM. etc)
Godly visuals
Godly visuals
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arkhamguy123
Member
Very high Geometric density + good lighting = CGI. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 in overdrive, FF16 (Geometric density could be higher), TLOU 2 (some parts), The Matrix Awakens or HFW. The Nvidia cars demo is next Level. All of these current gen games have too low geometric density in some parts (even the most elite games like HFW, FF16, TLOU2, Spiderman MM. etc)
Godly visuals
Yeah the rocks of the first UE5 demo in the ruins is what immediately sold it as a generational leap.
It was just so… dense. I don’t know a better word for it. Made it look jaw droppingly sexy paired with next Gen lighting they had going on. Still waiting for a retail game to come close
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Went back and played a couple of last gen games and honestly, its given me more of an appreciation for FF16 and the UE5 demo lol. Hogwarts, TLOU and RE4 are all firmly rooted in last gen. Especially hogwarts. At least RE4 has some amazing tesselation and volumetric lighting while TLOU's cutscenes look stunning. But hogwarts is just yeesh when it comes to lighting and asset quality.
I went back and recorded a video of my current playthrough. I features both indoor and outdoor areas. I am not seeing any lighting upgrades. it looks meh at best even for a PS4 game. The snow levels in TLOU2 were far more striking. Same goes for virtually every area in the game. It pales in comparison to everything in TLOU2. Now cutscenes are a different story which is why I believe ND did the cutscenes while VSG did the base game. the character models, and especially the lighting used in cutscenes is incredible. Its possible that there was a last second downgrade to the ingame lighting which is why the game looks off to me because if they managed that cutscene fidelity in gameplay, it would probably be the best looking game on any platform.
This is on PC at max settings. Compare this to the TLOU2 video posted above and hopefully you will see why it doesnt look as good as TLOU2.
Here is that video. finally finished processing. I couldnt get the fullscreen toggle to work so this is the best I could do. Looks like it drops to 25 fps when I do the flyover but the rest of the level is roughly 28-35 fps at native 4k though shadowplay does cost a few FPS when recording. Matrix demo ran at 35-40 fps on my 3080 at native 4k. Consoles should be able to run it with some downgrades like a lower resolution.
TBH, I dont think it gets bashed enough for the reasons i mentioned above. I honestly dont think it looks better than TLOU2 despite running on the same engine on a much more powerful hardware.
I went back and recorded a video of my current playthrough. I features both indoor and outdoor areas. I am not seeing any lighting upgrades. it looks meh at best even for a PS4 game. The snow levels in TLOU2 were far more striking. Same goes for virtually every area in the game. It pales in comparison to everything in TLOU2. Now cutscenes are a different story which is why I believe ND did the cutscenes while VSG did the base game. the character models, and especially the lighting used in cutscenes is incredible. Its possible that there was a last second downgrade to the ingame lighting which is why the game looks off to me because if they managed that cutscene fidelity in gameplay, it would probably be the best looking game on any platform.
This is on PC at max settings. Compare this to the TLOU2 video posted above and hopefully you will see why it doesnt look as good as TLOU2.
Here is that video. finally finished processing. I couldnt get the fullscreen toggle to work so this is the best I could do. Looks like it drops to 25 fps when I do the flyover but the rest of the level is roughly 28-35 fps at native 4k though shadowplay does cost a few FPS when recording. Matrix demo ran at 35-40 fps on my 3080 at native 4k. Consoles should be able to run it with some downgrades like a lower resolution.
Very high Geometric density + good lighting = CGI. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 in overdrive, FF16 (Geometric density could be higher), TLOU 2 (some parts), The Matrix Awakens or HFW. The Nvidia cars demo is next Level. All of these current gen games have too low geometric density in some parts (even the most elite games like HFW, FF16, TLOU2, Spiderman MM. etc)
Godly visuals
Yes. Dreams proves this true with its ultra High Geometry and lighting making its low resolution texturing irrelevant when striving for a photoreal look.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
They can't in a big explorable environment, but how about a small environment?
Honestly, just watching the two videos in your post above makes you realize how gorgeous the UE5 demo is and how gamey TLOU1 looks in comparison. And this is not a knock on TLOU1 which looks hella good and we thought at one point it looked gorgeous and so realistic; any other game would have paled in comparison frankly. This is the moment I am waiting for with graphics, the moment where I go "yeah all these other games that we thought looked great and realistic look like shit now compared to all these new games".
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Fidelity is identical lol, only lighting is different. You're capping. Many would argue the lighting while less pleasant in first shot actually brings out the facial detail much better.Sure.
*Me anticipating the subsequent gaslighting*
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Schmendrick
Member
Belittleling lighting accuracy in CGI is pretty much always wrong.
What CGI? Not belittling anything, I'm just pointing out that lighting is the only difference, the fidelity is identical. The lighting in the second shot is more pleasing to the eye no doubt, wether it's accurate or not is a whole different subject. There's no reason to over analyse one shot, both DF and NX Gamer have studied both games and said technology wise they're on par, which is my point.
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Callisto Protocol needs to be talked about more when visuals are being discussed. Also Mortal Kombat 1 has some awesome character models with great PBR.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
I very much enjoy your posts but what is it exactly that you want?
We all know that AAA games are currently costing $100-$300 million depending on whether they take 3 years or 5 years to develop. At this stage I'm convinced everyone in the industry got together circa 2020 in private and said "okay if we go to the next step visually we're talking 7 year development cycles and $300-$500 million dev costs" so publishers and devs came to the conclusion that slightly better than the very best looking PS4/XBO games at closer to 4k and at 60fps instead of 30fps was the best direction to take at this current time and with the hardware power on offer. The SSD's meaning much faster loading was also a massive leap over last gen and a major selling point. Sony also have their controller and PSVR2 as additional selling points.
This is why we're seeing such a mixed bag when it comes to AAA visual and some being disappointed and it usually comes down to budget and the time they're given versus the hardware not being capable. It's also why certain games look incredibly impressive one second and decidedly last gen the next like Plague Tale 2, Dead Island 2, Calisto Protocol, Jedi Survivor and FFXVI from recent times.
I don't know about the rest of you but if we were guaranteed that games will look like FFXVI, Jedi Survivor, Ratchet, Forza Horizon 5 and Returnal but they came out every 3 years and wouldn't sink a dev studio if they undersold I'd take it in a heartbeat (over getting ever so slightly closer to an overall unattainable level of visual fidelity anyway) CGI. The next crop of current gen games already look better than those above with the likes of Starfield, Fable, Forza Motorsport, Hellblade II, Star Wars Outlaws, Assassin's Creed Mirage, Alan Wake II and Spider-Man 2. I'm sure the next Horizon, God of War and TLOU III from Sony will also be a further visual improvement.
Console VR Gen 2 is also exciting in it's own "next gen" way pushing PS4.5 level visuals instead of PS3 level visuals.
People really, really don't like hearing this but the largest visual leap in the coming years will probably come from next gen Nintendo published games imo because the leap in hardware between Switch and Switch 2 will be so ginormous (made even bigger with the use of DLSS). Luigi's Mansion 4, Mario Kart 9, Super Mario Odyssey 2, Xenoblade 4 and the next Zelda will look ridiculous using PBR, RT and DLSS on a GPU baseline of 1.5tflops instead of 200gflops. Nintendo's art direction and PS4 Pro level visuals / iq will certainly be a sight to behold but I expect the same old "doesn't count as it's cartoony!" excuses to discount them just like Ratchet PS5 got...
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
Truly unbelievable response.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
The Matrix Awakens looks “next gen”. That’s what gamers want, a true next gen leap.
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nemiroff
Gold Member
That's the beauty of GI baked lightmaps.. It looks good, and you save two or three generations worth of GPU processing, lol.
So damn those pesky youngsters and their need for fancy realtime lighting!
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
Ok, this was comedy gold. I am laughing so hard
ChiefDada was something else during the Spidey 2 apocalypse. He even created a whole thread convincing gamers why they are clueless for thinking Spidey 2 was an average looking game after he went ballistic on Insomniac half an hour prior.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
I think pathtracing is the future and is REALLY needed like now, but if the same vision can be brought into fruition with a less demanding lighting solution to free up resources for other things then I’m all for it. It’s not what technology is used, it’s the result, thats why TLOU 2 still ranks among the best visuals ever created even compared to PC and current gen games. A PS4 game vs PS5 and PCs with 4090s…That's the beauty of GI baked lightmaps.. It looks good, and you save two or three generations worth of GPU processing, lol.
So damn those pesky youngsters and their need for fancy realtime lighting!
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The fact that you can't see it is what's unbelievable. Plenty of people have said the same. The less eye catching lighting in the first shot actually brings out a lot more of the detail. The fact that you think that in this particular shot ND went and upgraded the model while in the rest of the game they look identical to Part 2 is just a head scratcher. There are plenty of videos comparing the two games that prove that they're basically using the same assets with some difference in lighting choices. These very shots have been posted in this thread before and got similar responses as mine, so really we're just going around in circles at this point. Even DF and NX Gamer have stated that the two games are basically running on same tech, so I'm not sure what else you need to convince you.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
It's the same damn engine. That particular shot they changed to have different lighting for what was a flashback sequence in the sequel. But that lighting is present in several scenes in TLOU2.
What I wanted them to do was go back and get the bullshot character model they created for Joel, and put that in the remake. But they couldnt even do that. This was obviously a fake cg character model they created speficically for that trailer to fool people into thinking joel was in the sequel, but I would've loved to have seen this level of fidelity in the PS5 only remake.
We got this which is ok, but nothing like that above.
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Lethal01
Member
I remember people using that image to brag about how amazing character models are in TLOU2 and little did they know, lol. Naughty Dog have been using in-engine fakery in their trailers to hype up their games for a long time now, so really none of us should he surprised anymore. I'm still waiting to see character models like what Coalition showed in UE5 demo because that's the level of fidelity I expect this gen from high end productios, at least when it comes to cutscenes. This was very early on in UE5's life so things like hair rendering aren't perfect, but the level of fidelity on character model is almost one of lower budget CGI.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I agree with you on Nintendo. Luigi's Mansion and especially Zelda Links Awakening look kinda stunning. Amazing asset quality too. If we can get that in a big AAA title from Nintendo then sure, it will definitely impress people.
I think games taking forever to make is mostly due to everyone's insistence on making 50-100 hour games. It has not much to do with graphics. Just look at zelda. took 6 years and looks like a PS3 game. We went from linear 8-10 hour games to open world 20-30 hour games to all of a sudden 50-100 hours with likely 200 hours of content. I spent 145 glorious hours in Zelda and still have loads of content left. It's so dumb because they are training players to expect more.
But i agree, I dont see that changing so we will just have to wait until 2026-2027 to see next games from our favorite studios like ND, SSM, Rockstar and GG. until then ubisoft and other b tier devs like insomniac will have to do. I am pretty happy with Avatar despite the downgrade. Star wars looks amazing. Fable looks stunning. Starfield is very impressive and will turn heads when it launches just like FF16 is doing right now.
I was ready to quit gaming or at least the forums after the disastrous Sony conference; spiderman 2 truly broke me, but microsoft and ubisoft gave me some hope. Honestly, 2023 has been quite spectacular so far and even last gen games like hogwarts, re4 and zelda have really impressed from a gameplay perspective. star wars, final fantasy have some great visual highs with setpieces i honestly dont see being done on last gen consoles at this level of fidelity.
2024 looks kinda barren so you'll probably see me bitching again, but i am content for now. we might actually see some new reveals next year from sony like death stranding 2 so at least we will have those instead of actual game releases.
For what its worth, DF did some pixel counts and its FSR 2 4k quality so a 1440p internal resolution. Surprising for a game so reliant upon ray tracing running on an AMD GPU. FSR 2 has an overhead so it might actually run at 1620p or above if they ran it natively.
Luigi's Mansion is the most impressive Switch game imo. The fact that they're doing that level of fidelity and animations on PS3 level hardware at 60fps nonetheless is just remarkable. The animations especially are Pixar level and should not be allowed to exist on such weak hardware. Nintendo really have some super talent working there, really gonna be interesting how far they can push next Switch.
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arkhamguy123
Member
Spider-Man 2 almost broke my man
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Masterofchapter
Banned
Sony games looks good because they sacrifice everything like details, npc density, mostly linear, npc mostly do nothing and they have shitty streaming in technology for example ac Odyssey has 300 npc fighting in a single screen and cities are more lively than Sony ghost of tsuima even come close that's why they look good,
Masterofchapter
Banned
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