Support NeoGAF

[Piggoro]

You should check overview trailer and the npcs are varied more alive and the variety of vegetation is well above anything horizon done

I agree that there are some shots and scenes that look pretty great but I'm afraid that those are mostly from in-engine cutscenes where the graphics is turned up to 1000% ("Mix of gameplay, cutscenes and in-engine footage. Not all images appear in-game" bullshit).
Gameplay shots are mixed bag: some look nice and some are utterly fugly.
In these cutscenes the handmade animation are also nice and weighty, not jerky, simple and repetitive unlike in the gameplay sections.

 

[SlimySnake]

Oh my God I am getting PTSDs man, why post this Slimy? Jesus, just when I thought it did not look as ugly as I thought it did you post these and I go "naaaah this game is fuuugly". I cannot believe there are actually people out there mainly on Twitter and YouTube praising this game's visuals. It's because of people like them we are getting sub-par garbage from devs. I swear there are some parts in the PS4 version that actually really look better than Spidey 2. Even if it was a cross-gen game how can some aspects of it look worse than the original? Baffling, absolutely fucking baffling.

Honestly I went into that post saying that I have hope for Spidey2 to throw PolygonalSprite a bone, but then the more i looked into the more I realized this is a PS4 game being sold as a PS5 only game a la TLOU Remake. I was trying to find that shot of the city and ended up in one of the gaf threads with all those gifs. It was quite an eye opening experience seeing the game look WORSE in spots than the PS4 game. This is before we knew it was dropping to 1296p.

Even if they improve the visuals, it will not look next gen like the reveal trailer because the base is last gen. I hope people dont forget what they tried to pull here and there is another severe backlash when the game is released because this would be the 5th or 6th time a game from PS studios has received a massive downgrade, and aside from some graphics whores on forums, no one seems to notice. In the other thread, I saw the Ghost of Tsushima downgrade comparison and i was blown away by how massive it was and how there was no outrage come launch. I actually distinctly remember several journalists saying that it was running on a PS5 and laughing at them, but after the downgrade it was obvious that it was not running on the Pro and the journalists must have known something we didnt.

 

[Represent.]

Jesus everytime I think “was the gaming community too hard on SP2?” I see bits from that demo and think nah they weren’t fucking hard enough on SP2

Jesus Christ they DOWNGRADED their ocean simulation and asset from the PS4 game. They used the EXACT same explosion VFX package as the PS4 game. The lighting, the textures, even the goddamn animations (Spider-Man levitating slide like Michael Jackson when he does the O evade + that henchmen that couldn’t even make it to the other end of the house like it seemed like he was supposed to with the new web grab)

I genuinely cannot believe a first party flagship blockbuster AAA playstation game came out the gate like that after that dogshit showcase and no footage for 2 years. Starfield is how you show off a premium exclusive title. God Spider-Man 2 almost broke me as well slimy snake thanks for reminding me

The way MS showed off Starfield is definitely not the ideal way to show off most games. That game is gigantic. If they did the same for something like SM2, they'd essentially be showing off the entire game. Which we do not want. Sony's traditional way of showing off a game, i/e, having a developer just playing a section on stage, no BS, will always be king. But for the type of game Starfield is (i.e, fucking massive), it worked.

As for SpiderMan 2. If it comes out and looks like it did in the demo, then we were not hard enough. Devs need to feel embarrassed. They flat out showed us a BS reveal trailer and had everyone out here expecting near CG visuals.



They showed us this

Then delivered this

The only thing that gives me hope is this

Looks much better than the demo they showed. Better daw distance. Good rain effects, nice rim light on the characters, buildings look more detailed, and if its moving fast as hell, then this should look great in motion.

 

[SlimySnake]

I agree that there are some shots and scenes that look pretty great but I'm afraid that those are mostly from in-engine cutscenes where the graphics is turned up to 1000% ("Mix of gameplay, cutscenes and in-engine footage. Not all images appear in-game" bullshit).
Gameplay shots are mixed bag: some look nice and some are utterly fugly.
In these cutscenes the handmade animation are also nice and weighty, not jerky, simple and repetitive unlike in the gameplay sections.

People really need to go back and play HFW because Avatar is a definite step up. You can see just how dense the foliage is, the draw distance is massive, and lighting is a huge upgrade over Horizon.

The enemy base scenes look bad because they are mining the area and 'ruining' the world. As soon as you clear the enemy base, thel lighting changes as the world begins to go back to normal and will eventually look like this.

 

[SlimySnake]

The only thing that gives me hope is this

Looks much better than the demo they showed. Better daw distance. Good rain effects, nice rim light on the characters, buildings look more detailed, and if its moving fast as hell, then this should look great in motion.

lol They said this was concept art. Sorry Represent, but there is no hope.

 

[Represent.]

lol They said this was concept art. Sorry Represent, but there is no hope.

Ah fuck, I thought these were in game. Its why I kind of quieted my criticism.

 

[GymWolf]

People really need to go back and play HFW because Avatar is a definite step up. You can see just how dense the foliage is, the draw distance is massive, and lighting is a huge upgrade over Horizon.

The enemy base scenes look bad because they are mining the area and 'ruining' the world. As soon as you clear the enemy base, thel lighting changes as the world begins to go back to normal and will eventually look like this.

Last pic still looks less impressive than your dick.

 

[SlimySnake]

The thing about Teraflops is that from 30 series Nvidia GPUs onwards they're no longer 1:1 in relation to performance as they were before that. For example, 2080Ti is 13.5 tflops while 3070 that is identical to it in performance is 20.3 tflops. AMD GPUs are even more skewed in this regard as their new 7000 series GPUs have more tflops than Nvidia ones and yet are slower in performance. Before 30 series by Nvidia and 7000 by AMD teraflops were a valid way of measuring GPU across board. So really wee need around 60+ tflops of current GPU power to have 40 tflops equivalent of RDNA2 GPUs in consoles, which means it's a GPU that has to be more powerful than RTX 4080 and RX 7900XTX. By the time next consoles arrive we should have GPUs of that calibre affordable enough for $500 consoles.

There's also a possibility of both Sony and Microsoft making an affordable console like Series S next gen, which would make all this irrelevant as the lowest common denominator would mean there'll be no such thing as photorealism. Microsoft has already done this and Jim Ryan mentioned that Sony thought about doing this, which means it could be on the cards by both manufacturers next gen. Hopefully this doesn't happen, but it most likely will.

Yeah, the nvidia and AMD fudging of tflops really hurts, but I think 40 tflops is doable next gen. problem is no one is going to use those tflops until 2030-2032 as they continue making cross gen games based on 10-12 tflops consoles. I am just glad that Matrix has exposed all the devs out there as hacks and shown gamers that games can look much better.

I wouldnt be too concerned about another series s. The console has zero demand. It's been sitting on shelves since the pandemic. the only reason its selling is because MS undershipped the xsx to bolster their cloud servers. Sony had no problems increasing the price of the PS5 and saw a sales uptick so i am guessing they will just go ahead and launch a powerful $599 console instead of hamstringing themselves trying to hit the $399 pricetag which likely resulted in the memory/cpu bottleneck we are seeing with some PS5 games.

The most concerning trend in gaming is going to be the long dev times and Sony embracing GaaS. Going F2P killed Halo, and with dev times exceeding 5 years, its possible that we get 1 game per gen from big studios. It will not matter if those games can hit photorealism if we get one of them every 6 years.

 

[SlimySnake]

Last pic still looks less impressive than your dick.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Piggoro]

People really need to go back and play HFW because Avatar is a definite step up. You can see just how dense the foliage is, the draw distance is massive, and lighting is a huge upgrade over Horizon.

The enemy base scenes look bad because they are mining the area and 'ruining' the world. As soon as you clear the enemy base, thel lighting changes as the world begins to go back to normal and will eventually look like this.

I hope you're right. I'm a big Avatar and Massive fan and really hope the game comes out to be great.

 

[Edder1]

Yeah, the nvidia and AMD fudging of tflops really hurts, but I think 40 tflops is doable next gen. problem is no one is going to use those tflops until 2030-2032 as they continue making cross gen games based on 10-12 tflops consoles. I am just glad that Matrix has exposed all the devs out there as hacks and shown gamers that games can look much better.

I wouldnt be too concerned about another series s. The console has zero demand. It's been sitting on shelves since the pandemic. the only reason its selling is because MS undershipped the xsx to bolster their cloud servers. Sony had no problems increasing the price of the PS5 and saw a sales uptick so i am guessing they will just go ahead and launch a powerful $599 console instead of hamstringing themselves trying to hit the $399 pricetag which likely resulted in the memory/cpu bottleneck we are seeing with some PS5 games.

The most concerning trend in gaming is going to be the long dev times and Sony embracing GaaS. Going F2P killed Halo, and with dev times exceeding 5 years, its possible that we get 1 game per gen from big studios. It will not matter if those games can hit photorealism if we get one of them every 6 years.

Yeah, we are probably 9-10 years until we see exclusives on next gen consoles. It's ok though imo as we haven't really even kicked this gen into gear. We are probably 3-4 years away until wee see current gen consoles pushed to the max. The longer development cycles along with extended gen is tailor made for Pro consoles, something I'm surprised many people are saying we can do without.

I somewhat disagree with you on Series S. The advantage of launching a $299 console is that in time you can drop the price to$ 250 or under, I think it sells a trackloads. It would be mad imo to not think that a cheap Playstation would sell a ton, especially among casuals. Sony will monitor how this develops and we all know they always jump on bandwagon once they see success with something. So really all will depend on how Series S does this gen.

 

[SlimySnake]

Yeah, we are probably 9-10 years until we see exclusives on next gen consoles. It's ok though imo as we haven't really even kicked this gen into gear. We are probably 3-4 years away until wee see current gen consoles pushed to the max. The longer development cycles along with extended gen is tailor made for Pro consoles, something I'm surprised many people are saying we can do without.

I somewhat disagree with you on Series S. The advantage of launching a $299 console is that in time you can drop the price to$ 250 or under, I think it sells a trackloads. It would be mad imo to not think that a cheap Playstation would sell a ton, especially among casuals. Sony will monitor how this develops and we all know they always jump on bandwagon once they see success with something. So really all will depend on how Series S does this gen.

But Series S dropped to $199 last year and didnt really do much. The $550 PS5 roundly beat it 2:1 last holiday season.

I myself bought it for $149 thanks to a verizon sale, but even at $149 it didnt really move the needle. In fact, you could argue that verizon was clearing stock. MS has now effectively raised the price of this to $350 anyway.

Sony is the only one looking into releasing a Pro console. it will likely be 30 AMD tflops or 20 actual tflops. There is no way they launch a 30 tflops PS6 a few years later. They are still following their playbook from last gen.

 

[Edder1]

But Series S dropped to $199 last year and didnt really do much. The $550 PS5 roundly beat it 2:1 last holiday season.

I myself bought it for $149 thanks to a verizon sale, but even at $149 it didnt really move the needle. In fact, you could argue that verizon was clearing stock. MS has now effectively raised the price of this to $350 anyway.

Sony is the only one looking into releasing a Pro console. it will likely be 30 AMD tflops or 20 actual tflops. There is no way they launch a 30 tflops PS6 a few years later. They are still following their playbook from last gen.

There was no hype whatsoever in regards to Series consoles due to Microsoft having no exclusives and no games worth creating a hype. I think we'll get a better idea regarding popularity of Series S once Microsoft has a constant and consistent amount of quality content.

Agree with you on PS5 Pro, it should be around 6800XT range, which is equivalent to 21 tflops of RDNA2. PS6 should be around double that. More than doubling Pro consoles will be extremely hard and costly. We should end up in a range that Sweeny talked about.

Your last two sentences are something I can't agree with. Sony have recently shown that they can change and follow trends if it helps them achieve more success. Not that long ago nobody would have thought Sony would be so heavily investing in GAAS. Sony also changed their approach to cross gen. Nothing is telling me that Sony will stick to their current plans many years down the line, in fact their recent strategies say otherwise.

 

[alloush]

The thing about Teraflops is that from 30 series Nvidia GPUs onwards they're no longer 1:1 in relation to performance as they were before that. For example, 2080Ti is 13.5 tflops while 3070 that is identical to it in performance is 20.3 tflops. AMD GPUs are even more skewed in this regard as their new 7000 series GPUs have more tflops than Nvidia ones and yet are slower in performance. Before 30 series by Nvidia and 7000 by AMD teraflops were a valid way of measuring GPU across board. So really we need around 60+ tflops of current GPU power to have 40 tflops equivalent of RDNA2 GPUs in consoles, which means it's a GPU that has to be more powerful than RTX 4080 and RX 7900XTX. By the time next consoles arrive we should have GPUs of that calibre affordable enough for $500 consoles.

There's also a possibility of both Sony and Microsoft making an affordable console like Series S next gen, which would make all this irrelevant as the lowest common denominator would mean there'll be no such thing as photorealism. Microsoft has already done this and Jim Ryan mentioned that Sony thought about doing this, which means it could be on the cards by both manufacturers next gen. Hopefully it doesn't happen, but it most likely will going by how well Series S sells in comparison to X.

Excuse my ignorance but wouldn't an x number of tflops of future GPUs be equivalent to a higher number of tflops of current GPUs? An example, wouldn't a 10 tflop RDNA 3 GPU be the equivalent of around 16 tflop RDNA 2 GPU? Sorry I am a noob when it comes to this.

Honestly I went into that post saying that I have hope for Spidey2 to throw PolygonalSprite a bone, but then the more i looked into the more I realized this is a PS4 game being sold as a PS5 only game a la TLOU Remake. I was trying to find that shot of the city and ended up in one of the gaf threads with all those gifs. It was quite an eye opening experience seeing the game look WORSE in spots than the PS4 game. This is before we knew it was dropping to 1296p.

Even if they improve the visuals, it will not look next gen like the reveal trailer because the base is last gen. I hope people dont forget what they tried to pull here and there is another severe backlash when the game is released because this would be the 5th or 6th time a game from PS studios has received a massive downgrade, and aside from some graphics whores on forums, no one seems to notice. In the other thread, I saw the Ghost of Tsushima downgrade comparison and i was blown away by how massive it was and how there was no outrage come launch. I actually distinctly remember several journalists saying that it was running on a PS5 and laughing at them, but after the downgrade it was obvious that it was not running on the Pro and the journalists must have known something we didnt.

Yeah it's def a PS4 game, no one can convince me otherwise. Doesn't matter how much they actually polish it it will still look like a PS4 game with some spots actually looking worse than the original game; as the saying goes you cannot polish a turd.

PS studios have been on a downward spiral for a while in the sense that they have been selling us something via trailers just for them to end up offering us something much worse. Yes we got TLOU2, GoT, HFW among others all really good looking games, but the way they sold us dreams just for them to offer us something way off than what they sold us has been nothing short of scandalous honestly. And now these same studios that once defined the genre, set the standards and raised the bar are being schooled by the likes of Ubisoft and Massive and MS.

 

[SlimySnake]

Excuse my ignorance but wouldn't an x number of tflops of future GPUs be equivalent to a higher number of tflops of current GPUs? An example, wouldn't a 10 tflop RDNA 3 GPU be the equivalent of around 16 tflop RDNA 2 GPU? Sorry I am a noob when it comes to this.


Yeah it's def a PS4 game, no one can convince me otherwise. Doesn't matter how much they actually polish it it will stilllook like a PS4 game with some spots actually looking worse than the original game; as the saying goes you cannot polish a turd.

PS studios have been on a downward spiral for a while in the sense that they have been selling us something via trailers just for them to end up offering us something much worse. Yes we got TLOU2, GoT, HFW among others all really good looking games, but the way they sold us dreams just for them to offer us something way off than what they sold us has been nothing short of scandalous honestly. And now these same studios that once defined the genre, set the standards and raised the bar are being schooled by the likes of Ubisoft and Massive and MS.

Both nvidia starting with 3000 series GPUs and AMD with 7000 series GPUs have been inflating their tflops counts. Not entirely sure what Nvidia does, but AMD is saying that they are now able to push 4 instructions per cycle instead of the 2 they did before. Since the formula to calculate tflops uses that metric, they have essentially doubled their tflops count while the performance has remained largely the same.

Here is a graph of how the 84 CU 52 tflops 7900xt and 96 CU 61tflops 7900xtx perform against the 80 CU 23 tflops 6950xt. Just 15-36% better. Instead of 100-150% better if the performance scaled with tflops. It's scaling more inline with the CUs and higher clocks thanks to node reductions than anything else.

So if you see the PS5 Pro rated at 40 tflops just divide it by 2. MS will likely target 50 tflops because they like bigger numbers, but know it will actually be 25 tflops. To get to Tim Sweeney's 40 tflops number for photorealism, you'd need an 80 tflops AMD GPU.

 

[shamoomoo]

Yeah, the nvidia and AMD fudging of tflops really hurts, but I think 40 tflops is doable next gen. problem is no one is going to use those tflops until 2030-2032 as they continue making cross gen games based on 10-12 tflops consoles. I am just glad that Matrix has exposed all the devs out there as hacks and shown gamers that games can look much better.

I wouldnt be too concerned about another series s. The console has zero demand. It's been sitting on shelves since the pandemic. the only reason its selling is because MS undershipped the xsx to bolster their cloud servers. Sony had no problems increasing the price of the PS5 and saw a sales uptick so i am guessing they will just go ahead and launch a powerful $599 console instead of hamstringing themselves trying to hit the $399 pricetag which likely resulted in the memory/cpu bottleneck we are seeing with some PS5 games.

The most concerning trend in gaming is going to be the long dev times and Sony embracing GaaS. Going F2P killed Halo, and with dev times exceeding 5 years, its possible that we get 1 game per gen from big studios. It will not matter if those games can hit photorealism if we get one of them every 6 years.

In a console form factor I think a 30+ TF RDNA3+ GPU could be close to it's theoretical flops.

I believe it's a memory problem but at 1080p in Warzone 2,the RX 7600 is almost as fast as 6800 non XT.

AMD Radeon RX 7600 Review

AMD's new Radeon RX 7600 is a new mainstream GPU offering that is not unlike Nvidia's recent RTX 4060 Ti release - there's actually a decent product...

www.techspot.com

 

[alloush]

Both nvidia starting with 3000 series GPUs and AMD with 7000 series GPUs have been inflating their tflops counts. Not entirely sure what Nvidia does, but AMD is saying that they are now able to push 4 instructions per cycle instead of the 2 they did before. Since the formula to calculate tflops uses that metric, they have essentially doubled their tflops count while the performance has remained largely the same.

Here is a graph of how the 84 CU 52 tflops 7900xt and 96 CU 61tflops 7900xtx perform against the 80 CU 23 tflops 6950xt. Just 15-36% better. Instead of 100-150% better if the performance scaled with tflops. It's scaling more inline with the CUs and higher clocks thanks to node reductions than anything else.

So if you see the PS5 Pro rated at 40 tflops just divide it by 2. MS will likely target 50 tflops because they like bigger numbers, but know it will actually be 25 tflops. To get to Tim Sweeney's 40 tflops number for photorealism, you'd need an 80 tflops AMD GPU.

Oh wow thanks a lot for the explanation, man. I remember seeing folks say that the 10.2 tflop of the PS5’s RDNA 2 GPU is equivalent to like 17 tflops of the PS4’s GPU or some like that. But to get to Tim Sweeney’s number we’d need an 80 tflops GPU for PS6 which is ridiculous I am not sure if we will get that. But we dont even know what kinda GPU the PS6 will sport so how can we even calculate that from now?

 

[SlimySnake]

Oh wow thanks a lot for the explanation, man. I remember seeing folks say that the 10.2 tflop of the PS5’s RDNA 2 GPU is equivalent to like 17 tflops of the PS4’s GPU or some like that. But to get to Tim Sweeney’s number we’d need an 80 tflops for PS6 which is ridiculous I am not sure if we will get that. But we dont even know what kinda GPU the PS6 will sport so how can we even calculate that from now?

Yeah, the IPC gains from GCN1.1 to Polaris To RDNA1.0 were around 50%. So for every 10 tflops of RDNA GPU power, you got 15 PS4 tflops worth of performance. Sadly, RDNA 1.0 to RDNA 3.0 has had no IPC gains.

Of course, like you said, we dont know what RDNA 4.0 or whatever new architecture AMD is cooking up after RDNA3 will do so its pointless to make any PS6 assumptions today. But the PS5 Pro will likely have an RDNA 3.0 GPU and thats definitely on the horizon. Expect some leaks on it this week.

 

[alloush]

Yeah, the IPC gains from GCN1.1 to Polaris To RDNA1.0 were around 50%. So for every 10 tflops of RDNA GPU power, you got 15 PS4 tflops worth of performance. Sadly, RDNA 1.0 to RDNA 3.0 has had no IPC gains.

Of course, like you said, we dont know what RDNA 4.0 or whatever new architecture AMD is cooking up after RDNA3 will do so its pointless to make any PS6 assumptions today. But the PS5 Pro will likely have an RDNA 3.0 GPU and thats definitely on the horizon. Expect some leaks on it this week.

God, I hope you’re right and we get a PS5 Pro. For some reason my hope of getting a Pro console dwindled as we haven’t heard anything in regards to this in a minute so I thought we might not get one after all.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Has any game come close to this yet?

No. It's also disappointing that we can't play that demo on console which leads me to believe the consoles can't run it in a playable enough state. I've always been more impressed by this them Matrix.

 

[SolidQ]

Tim Sweeney’s number we’d need an 80 tflops GPU for PS6

RX 8800 or RX 8900 is PS6 Perfomance, at the end 2024 we will know how many TF.

 

[Edder1]

To get to Tim Sweeney's 40 tflops number for photorealism, you'd need an 80 tflops AMD GPU.

75 tflops according to my calculations, but around that number yes. Which means you need a GPU that's a tier above 7900XTX, a GPU AMD doesn't have yet. The next flagship AMD GPU is what we'll most likely be getting in next consoles.

 

[arkhamguy123]

No. It's also disappointing that we can't play that demo on console which leads me to believe the consoles can't run it in a playable enough state. I've always been more impressed by this them Matrix.

Nah it’s real. They were gonna have playable booths at e3 2020 before Covid hit. Big shame.

Think of all the extra footage we’d have had of random people inspecting all the fine details and messing with the physics and lighting.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I think we'll get a better idea regarding popularity of Series S once Microsoft has a constant and consistent amount of quality content.

we ain't in the dark ages anymore, meta's thread reached 100M users in a few days, iirc. People know Series S is subpar compared to Series X, microsoft attempt at confusing naming did not work. I'd be surprised if it sells at 99$ will be like the 99$ gamecube against ps2.

Oh wow thanks a lot for the explanation, man. I remember seeing folks say that the 10.2 tflop of the PS5’s RDNA 2 GPU is equivalent to like 17 tflops of the PS4’s GPU or some like that. But to get to Tim Sweeney’s number we’d need an 80 tflops GPU for PS6 which is ridiculous I am not sure if we will get that. But we dont even know what kinda GPU the PS6 will sport so how can we even calculate that from now?

I think the Holy grail is Path tracing.
The 4090 appears able to run 30fps path traced cyberpunk at reasonably high resolutions(from figures think it might be able to do so at 1440p).

Cyberpunk 2077's New, Extremely Taxing Ray Tracing Mode is Here - Total Gaming Network

Path tracing, or full ray tracing, has been added to Cyberpunk 2077 today and brings even the mighty RTX 4090 to its knees.

totalgamingnetwork.com

At lower resolutions it should be able to run path tracing at 45fps, and with ai reconstruction upscaling it won't look too different. So that level of performance might suffice for next gen consoles.

All that will be needed is to extend nanite from static meshes to skeletal meshes so that not only environments but characters can have hollywood unlimited geometry along with path tracing

Of course there is always hope of breakthroughs in ray tracing acceleration h/w

 

[Edder1]

we ain't in the dark ages anymore, meta's thread reached 100M users in a few days, iirc. People know Series S is subpar compared to Series X, microsoft attempt at confusing naming did not work. I'd be surprised if it sells at 99$ will be like the 99$ gamecube against ps2.

We all know that software is what sells hardware and we can only judge hardware sales on the side of Microsoft once they get it right with software. If by the end of generation Series S outsells X by something like 2:1 then it will be very surprising if we don't see that trend continue into next generation. If Series S is that successful then you can bet that Sony will jump on that train like they always do. As for Threads and their 100M users in few days, you can bet a big chunk of that are bots.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

We all know that software is what sells hardware and we can only judge hardware sales on the side of Microsoft once they get it right with software. If by the end of generation Series S outsells X by something like 2:1 then it will be very surprising if we don't see that trend continue into next generation. If Series S is that successful then you can bet that Sony will jump on that train like they always do. As for Threads and their 100M users in few days, you can bet a big chunk of those are bots.

how many people bought series s thinking it was gonna give them the best next gen experience only to discover they were potentially misled? I guestimate the number of dissatisfied costumers is likely significant, and might hurt them next gen.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Oh my God I am getting PTSDs man, why post this Slimy? Jesus, just when I thought it did not look as ugly as I thought it did you post these and I go "naaaah this game is fuuugly". I cannot believe there are actually people out there mainly on Twitter and YouTube praising this game's visuals. It's because of people like them we are getting sub-par garbage from devs. I swear there are some parts in the PS4 version that actually really look better than Spidey 2. Even if it was a cross-gen game how can some aspects of it look worse than the original? Baffling, absolutely fucking baffling.

You'd never know how truly disappointing this games visuals are by looking it up YouTube. The amount of defending this game got there by both Youtubers and in the the comments is crazy.

Honestly makes me furious because it's true, these people are what's allowing this game to look the way it does.

They do not deserve any benefit of the doubt either.

Watch how much this game is going to be hyped by the devs in the coming months. Remember how much "hype" games like Anthem and Watch Dogs got? Yeah, there's a reason devs do this...it's when they know they did NOT do their game justice and they're NOT confident in it.

 

[alloush]

we ain't in the dark ages anymore, meta's thread reached 100M users in a few days, iirc. People know Series S is subpar compared to Series X, microsoft attempt at confusing naming did not work. I'd be surprised if it sells at 99$ will be like the 99$ gamecube against ps2.

I think the Holy grail is Path tracing.
The 4090 appears able to run 30fps path traced cyberpunk at reasonably high resolutions(from figures think it might be able to do so at 1440p).

Cyberpunk 2077's New, Extremely Taxing Ray Tracing Mode is Here - Total Gaming Network

Path tracing, or full ray tracing, has been added to Cyberpunk 2077 today and brings even the mighty RTX 4090 to its knees.

totalgamingnetwork.com

At lower resolutions it should be able to run path tracing at 45fps, and with ai reconstruction upscaling it won't look too different. So that level of performance might suffice for next gen consoles.

All that will be needed is to extend nanite from static meshes to skeletal meshes so that not only environments but characters can have hollywood unlimited geometry along with path tracing

Of course there is always hope of breakthroughs in ray tracing acceleration h/w

I wonder how doable path tracing will be on the next gen consoles seeing how the current gen consoles struggle with regular RT. I know PT is currently being done on the high-end Nvidia GPUs but if current gen consoles struggle with RT then I wonder how the next gen ones will be able to do PT and to what extent.

how many people bought series s thinking it was gonna give them the best next gen experience only to discover they were potentially misled? I guestimate the number of dissatisfied costumers is likely significant, and might hurt them next gen.

A friend of mine got the Series S and he swears by it due to how much he loves it. If you see how he talks about it you'd think it is the best thing since sliced bread and it baffles me. He calls it one of the best investments in videogames ever lol, so try to convince that stubborn mofo that the series s aint really a good deal at all.

You'd never know how truly disappointing this games visuals are by looking it up YouTube. The amount of defending this game got there by both Youtubers and in the the comments is crazy.

Honestly makes me furious because it's true, these people are what's allowing this game to look the way it does.

They do not deserve any benefit of the doubt either.

Watch how much this game is going to be hyped by the devs in the coming months. Remember how much "hype" games like Anthem and Watch Dogs got? Yeah, there's a reason devs do this...it's when they know they did NOT do their game justice and they're NOT confident in it.

What pisses me off the most is how all these hacks mob up on people who dare criticize the game's visuals like hounding dogs. It is astonishing the amount of defending these guys do on behalf of Insomniac you'd think they own a share in the company.

It is a fugly looking game and no one can deny that, it is factually and objectively ugly no idea how anyone else can think otherwise, man shit is baffling.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Jesus everytime I think “was the gaming community too hard on SP2?” I see bits from that demo and think nah they weren’t fucking hard enough on SP2

Jesus Christ they DOWNGRADED their ocean simulation and asset from the PS4 game. They used the EXACT same explosion VFX package as the PS4 game. The lighting, the textures, even the goddamn animations (Spider-Man levitating slide like Michael Jackson when he does the O evade + that henchmen that couldn’t even make it to the other end of the house like it seemed like he was supposed to with the new web grab)

I genuinely cannot believe a first party flagship blockbuster AAA playstation game came out the gate like that after that dogshit showcase and no footage for 2 years. Starfield is how you show off a premium exclusive title. God Spider-Man 2 almost broke me as well slimy snake thanks for reminding me

Lol this is true and funny.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

This is not entirely true. A game like Death Stranding, does a good job at trying to aim for photo-realism, this was the vision of Kojima and subsequently the art directors.

I think we need to realise that games by their nature are born out of art, simply trying to aim for photo-realism is a narrow minded goal for the future of graphics. Look at the new Avatar game, I would hardly call it photorealistic but it's still very impressive on a technical level through things like lighting, foliage and animations.

Horizon would look very boring visually had it aimed for photorealistic visuals, the colour pallet would take a huge hit and the game would lose a lot of what made it beautiful. I know people criticise its lighting, and i agree it can be inconsistent but if they implement a solution like ray-traced global illumination, it will dramatically change the games visuals, even on the developer scale, the art design will have to be reworked.

I agree, not all games need to be photorealistic and have the same art style. Horizon could have benefited from RT implementation without changing the artistic intent. Better textures and more dense geometry is always better also (if appropriate). Graphics fidelity doesn’t mean photorealistic. It can be used for better overall visual fidelity.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

No. It's also disappointing that we can't play that demo on console which leads me to believe the consoles can't run it in a playable enough state. I've always been more impressed by this them Matrix.

Tbh the Matrix Demo is more impressive to me. It’s the first time I’ve seen something really touch photorealism at home running realtime on my console…

 

[CGNoire]

Honestly I went into that post saying that I have hope for Spidey2 to throw PolygonalSprite a bone, but then the more i looked into the more I realized this is a PS4 game being sold as a PS5 only game a la TLOU Remake. I was trying to find that shot of the city and ended up in one of the gaf threads with all those gifs. It was quite an eye opening experience seeing the game look WORSE in spots than the PS4 game. This is before we knew it was dropping to 1296p.

Even if they improve the visuals, it will not look next gen like the reveal trailer because the base is last gen. I hope people dont forget what they tried to pull here and there is another severe backlash when the game is released because this would be the 5th or 6th time a game from PS studios has received a massive downgrade, and aside from some graphics whores on forums, no one seems to notice. In the other thread, I saw the Ghost of Tsushima downgrade comparison and i was blown away by how massive it was and how there was no outrage come launch. I actually distinctly remember several journalists saying that it was running on a PS5 and laughing at them, but after the downgrade it was obvious that it was not running on the Pro and the journalists must have known something we didnt.

I was thread banned at era for mentioning the clear GOT downgrade and was yelled down and gaslit by not only the mods but DF as well. Youd have be fucking blind to not see how big the downgrade was. To this day I wont even play it cause they pissed me off so much with there vertical slice lies..fuck em.

 

[miklonus]

People really need to go back and play HFW because Avatar is a definite step up. You can see just how dense the foliage is, the draw distance is massive, and lighting is a huge upgrade over Horizon.

Yeah, we are probably 9-10 years until we see exclusives on next gen consoles. It's ok though imo as we haven't really even kicked this gen into gear. We are probably 3-4 years away until wee see current gen consoles pushed to the max.

Yeah it's def a PS4 game, no one can convince me otherwise. Doesn't matter how much they actually polish it it will still look like a PS4 game with some spots actually looking worse than the original game

PS studios have been selling us something via trailers just for them to end up offering us something much worse. Yes we got TLOU2, GoT, HFW among others all really good looking games, but the way they sold us dreams just for them to offer us something way off than what they sold us has been nothing short of scandalous honestly. And now these same studios that once defined the genre, set the standards and raised the bar are being schooled by the likes of Ubisoft and Massive and MS.

Do I want a pro console? Yes. Do I want a pro console, with games that are still designed with a PS4 template in mind? No. We haven't even taken advantage, full and true all-out advantage, of the PS5 yet. For fuck sake look at how Batman Arkham Knight ran on PS4! Two years after the PS4 came out. Two years before the release of the pro. A game that could only run on the PS4, a game designed for the PS4, and not it's predecessor, the PS3.

My quotes of the three people above don't do it justice. I want a powerful machine. Who the fuck doesn't? We all do. But I don't want is a PS5 PRO in July 2024, July 11th, and these mothafuckas are STILL using PS4 as a template and a base for the games that they release next year. You guys have been pointing out since the dawn of creation: PS5 games take five years, slightly over/under, to produce. A game coming out next year, Tekken 8 aside, ain't taking advantage of 5 and X.

Sure, bring 'em on. Have your pros. But will a pro fix the developers? The dialogue and conversation in this thread and forum tells me it won't. My own God damn experience tells me it won't. (Apologies for typos.)

 

[CGNoire]

Tbh the Matrix Demo is more immpressive to me. It’s the first time I’ve seen something really touch photorealism at home running realtime on my console…

Yep its pushing way more RT effects and flirts with Film level CGI while the other demo only hits game CGI levels.

 

[miklonus]

Yep its pushing way more RT effects and flirts with Film level CGI while the other demo only hits game CGI levels.

I repeat: three years into the generation, this is our most impressive..."game". A movie's off-shoot video game demo. A movie from 1999.

Arkham Knight was 2015. And a pro's gonna fix this...

Heh.

 

[CGNoire]

Do I want a pro console? Yes. Do I want a pro console, with games that are still designed with a PS4 template in mind? No. We haven't even taken advantage, full and true all-out advantage, of the PS5 yet. For fuck sake look at how Batman Arkham Knight ran on PS4! Two years after the PS4 came out. Two years before the release of the pro. A game that could only run on the PS4, a game designed for the PS4, and not it's predecessor, the PS3.

My quotes of the three people above don't do it justice. I want a powerful machine. Who the fuck doesn't? We all do. But I don't want is a PS5 PRO in July 2024, July 11th, and these mothafuckas are STILL using PS4 as a template and a base for the games that they release next year. You guys have been pointing out since the dawn of creation: PS5 games take five years, slightly over/under, to produce. A game coming out next year, Tekken 8 aside, ain't taking advantage of 5 and X.

Sure, bring 'em on. Have your pros. But will a pro fix the developers? The dialogue and conversation in this thread and forum tells me it won't. My own God damn experience tells me it won't. (Apologies for typos.)

Facts ....shits a waste of time.

The only way they could make it make sense is if all AAA games at the time relied heavily on realtime RTGI and the Pro was specifically designed as an RT upgrade where the fidelity of the GI was massively increased as a required standard.

 

[Lethal01]

I repeat: three years into the generation, this is our most impressive..."game". A movie's off-shoot video game demo. A movie from 1999.

Arkham Knight was 2015. And a pro's gonna fix this...

Heh.

TBF the time when the movie came out is pretty irrelevant, real life is real life, its not getting upgraded.
Also techdemos being more technically impressive than games for most of the generation is no uncommon.

 

[alloush]

Do I want a pro console? Yes. Do I want a pro console, with games that are still designed with a PS4 template in mind? No. We haven't even taken advantage, full and true all-out advantage, of the PS5 yet. For fuck sake look at how Batman Arkham Knight ran on PS4! Two years after the PS4 came out. Two years before the release of the pro. A game that could only run on the PS4, a game designed for the PS4, and not it's predecessor, the PS3.

My quotes of the three people above don't do it justice. I want a powerful machine. Who the fuck doesn't? We all do. But I don't want is a PS5 PRO in July 2024, July 11th, and these mothafuckas are STILL using PS4 as a template and a base for the games that they release next year. You guys have been pointing out since the dawn of creation: PS5 games take five years, slightly over/under, to produce. A game coming out next year, Tekken 8 aside, ain't taking advantage of 5 and X.

Sure, bring 'em on. Have your pros. But will a pro fix the developers? The dialogue and conversation in this thread and forum tells me it won't. My own God damn experience tells me it won't. (Apologies for typos.)

Facts ....shits a waste of time.

The only way they could make it make sense is if all AAA games at the time relied heavily on realtime RTGI and the Pro was specifically designed as an RT upgrade where the fidelity of the GI was massively increased as a required standard.

You guys are right, of what use is the Pro gonna be if we are still getting games based on the PS4? When last gen consoles moved to x86 architecture making it easier for devs to make games across all 3 platforms we all rejoiced as we thought this would save a lotta time for the devs as well a introduce parity among the 3 main platforms. Little did we know it was gonna impact us negatively as due to this devs dont think it is necessary to upgrade their engines since the PS5 and Series X/S have the same architecture as the previous gen consoles which means the engines that worked on last gen consoles would also work on current gen consoles.

Having said that, I think you guys are underestimating the benefits of the Pro. Now devs have shifted their full focus towards current-gen ditching last gen in the process and we are starting to get next-gen only, even though some games were clearly made with last gen in mind. The current gen consoles as powerful as they may be they are not as powerful as a lot of us think they are. We are getting games that are dipping below 900p, anytime RT is implemented the performance takes a big hit, when the resolution is high performance takes a big hit and resources get wasted in the process leaving the devs with minimal resources to innovate somewhere else and so on and so forth. A Pro console is always always welcome, everybody benefits from a Pro console, those who are looking for games with better performance would want a Pro, those who want better graphics would benefit from a Pro, those who dont care would also benefit as more original PS5s become available and at cheaper prices too.

 

[SlimySnake]

Do I want a pro console? Yes. Do I want a pro console, with games that are still designed with a PS4 template in mind? No. We haven't even taken advantage, full and true all-out advantage, of the PS5 yet. For fuck sake look at how Batman Arkham Knight ran on PS4! Two years after the PS4 came out. Two years before the release of the pro. A game that could only run on the PS4, a game designed for the PS4, and not it's predecessor, the PS3.

My quotes of the three people above don't do it justice. I want a powerful machine. Who the fuck doesn't? We all do. But I don't want is a PS5 PRO in July 2024, July 11th, and these mothafuckas are STILL using PS4 as a template and a base for the games that they release next year. You guys have been pointing out since the dawn of creation: PS5 games take five years, slightly over/under, to produce. A game coming out next year, Tekken 8 aside, ain't taking advantage of 5 and X.

Sure, bring 'em on. Have your pros. But will a pro fix the developers? The dialogue and conversation in this thread and forum tells me it won't. My own God damn experience tells me it won't. (Apologies for typos.)

It wont fix any problems with long dev cycles or publishers fascination with cross gen games, but it will fix problems with next gen only games that are dropping to 720p and below in their performance modes. No one wants to play Star wars and FF16 on sub PS3 resolutions.

Star wars i could play on PC, but FF16 and other sony games that are not seeing day one releases? I wouldnt mind a console that can run the games at a better resolution or framerate. Thats all there is to it. I am very cognizant of the fact that the Pro is merely a bandaid for a much larger problem.

 

[SlimySnake]

Alex covered the new UE5 engine upgrades in the Electric Dreams demo and things are not looking good.

- Engine is still very CPU bound and does not scale well with more CPU threads or more CPU cores.
- Traversal stutter is still there whenever you enter a new area of the map or cross an invisible line
- PC shader compilation issues can be somewhat mitigated by a new behind the scenes feature of the engine but it still produces stutters
- Software vs Hardware lumens is only a 10-15% performance lift.
- Procedurally generating assets is a big game changer. 70% of the demo seems to be procedural generated saving devs a lot of time.



It really sucks that the engine is CPU bound two years after the Matrix demo came out. This will limit physics, destruction, NPC behavior and other simulations devs might want to put in their next gen games. Man every time i hop on the UE5 bandwagon, they bring me back down to earth. How they have failed to multithread this stuff in the last three years is beyond me. Maybe UE6.

 

[alloush]

Alex covered the new UE5 engine upgrades in the Electric Dreams demo and things are not looking good.

- Engine is still very CPU bound and does not scale well with more CPU threads or more CPU cores.
- Traversal stutter is still there whenever you enter a new area of the map or cross an invisible line
- PC shader compilation issues can be somewhat mitigated by a new behind the scenes feature of the engine but it still produces stutters
- Software vs Hardware lumens is only a 10-15% performance lift.
- Procedurally generating assets is a big game changer. 70% of the demo seems to be procedural generated saving devs a lot of time.



It really sucks that the engine is CPU bound two years after the Matrix demo came out. This will limit physics, destruction, NPC behavior and other simulations devs might want to put in their next gen games. Man every time i hop on the UE5 bandwagon, they bring me back down to earth. How they have failed to multithread this stuff in the last three years is beyond me. Maybe UE6.

How come Tim Sweeney, a genius of the game and his brilliant devs not seem to be able to find a solution to this?

 

[Crispy Gamer]

CDPR should've just continued to use the upgraded RED engine for Witcher 4 instead of switching to UE5, open world games are usually better when the engine is in house anyway that was such a weird decision

 

[SlimySnake]

How come Tim Sweeney, a genius of the game and his brilliant devs not seem to be able to find a solution to this?

Legacy tech is my guess. These are iterations after all. Even ND which started with a brand new engine for Uncharted refused to start from scratch for the PS4 citing the issues they had with the new Uncharted engine. IIRC, they lost a full year of dev because of issues with the new engine. Epic is building on top of decades old toolset and with Lumens/RT having a bigger impact on CPU than older lighting techniques, it is just exposing the engine's limitations.

If the engineers couldve multithreaded it, they would've done it already. Its probably something they cant solve easily.

P.S I code on a 40 year old system, and multithreading can only take you so far. Some processes simply take too long to finish and will peg that cpu thread until it finishes. We just add extra CPU cores to the cloud to get around this, but games cant afford to do that. I am not smart enough to redesign our dated codebase to be super efficient and multithreaded and im guessing thats what these Epic engineers are running into.

 

[alloush]

Legacy tech is my guess. These are iterations after all. Even ND which started with a brand new engine for Uncharted refused to start from scratch for the PS4 citing the issues they had with the new Uncharted engine. IIRC, they lost a full year of dev because of issues with the new engine. Epic is building on top of decades old toolset and with Lumens/RT having a bigger impact on CPU than older lighting techniques, it is just exposing the engine's limitations.

If the engineers couldve multithreaded it, they would've done it already. Its probably something they cant solve easily.

P.S I code on a 40 year old system, and multithreading can only take you so far. Some processes simply take too long to finish and will peg that cpu thread until it finishes. We just add extra CPU cores to the cloud to get around this, but games cant afford to do that. I am not smart enough to redesign our dated codebase to be super efficient and multithreaded and im guessing thats what these Epic engineers are running into.

Wonderful explanation which painted a much clearer picture for someone like me. I am guessing what you said is the reason why UE5 is being CPU-heavy. I wonder what solutions do they have in the pipeline to fix this cuz I am pretty sure Tim Sweeney doesn’t like this and aint gonna sit around and not come up with a solution to this. The plot thickens!

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

It wont fix any problems with long dev cycles or publishers fascination with cross gen games, but it will fix problems with next gen only games that are dropping to 720p and below in their performance modes. No one wants to play Star wars and FF16 on sub PS3 resolutions.

Star wars i could play on PC, but FF16 and other sony games that are not seeing day one releases? I wouldnt mind a console that can run the games at a better resolution or framerate. Thats all there is to it. I am very cognizant of the fact that the Pro is merely a bandaid for a much larger problem.

True, because of this situation though being a reality it makes no sense for people to be arguing agaist the Pro, aside from their misguided feelings of not wanting to pay to upgrade and therefore feeling like they have the "weaker" of the two consoles. That strikes me as selfish and insecure.

FF16 is almost unplayable for me. The fidelity mode is the only way to play and its such an unpleasant experience due to the low fps and bad motion blur implementation. As soon as you try to jostle the camera, such as when simply exploring the world, it feels terrible.

The toggle they just patched does nothing to help. You have it set high the game is smoother but smothered in blur or you turn it all the way down and the game is even jerkier. Then you have games like Jedi Survivor which would look amazing with just a bit higher resolution. Starfield at 30 fps compared to 60 will be night and day. Jedi Survivor a Pro would be the difference between a playable 60 fps mode and the primordial soup of a performance mode we have now.

 

[Schmendrick]

I am not smart enough to redesign our dated codebase to be super efficient and multithreaded and im guessing thats what these Epic engineers are running into.

nobody is.
Either you get greenlit to do everything from scratch or you don`t even try because redesigning legacy architectures is an absolute nightmare and seldom nets acceptable results for anything beyond a certain complexity/size. In 20 years as a software dev, be it as a programming footsoldier back in the days or now as an architect/dev-Manager I`ve rarely ever seen such "modernization" notions succeed.
At some point most big software packages either die and get replaced or they live long enough to become un-maintainable.

In the end it all boils down to budget again. How many manhours is the management willing to invest to update/replace legacy tech vs how bad do you expect the backlash to be if you somehow drag the stuff further along.
Nowadays 80% of my job is fighting tooth and nails for budget to raise quality standards while sales makes promises development can never match...in a fortune 500 company no less.
That`s why I don`t like the "lazy dev" notion...the issue is always the upper management sitting on the moneybags for short term profit.

 

[SlimySnake]

I was thread banned at era for mentioning the clear GOT downgrade and was yelled down and gaslit by not only the mods but DF as well. Youd have be fucking blind to not see how big the downgrade was. To this day I wont even play it cause they pissed me off so much with there vertical slice lies..fuck em.

lol It's a great game. Dont let the mentally deranged users and mods over at era discourage you from experiencing it. The game can still look marvelous at times.

I think their behavior and shutting down any criticism of Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo exclusives has contributed to devs feeling emboldened enough to do these downgrades. Ubisoft and EA dont have these fanbases and mods all over the internet dont feel compelled to shut down criticism towards those third party downgrades. In fact, its celebrated. But criticize a first party game and you are labeled a concern troll. GAF is actually the only place that allows criticism of all first party.

As for DF, they are in bed with all these AAA studios. The way they glossed over HFW's performance mode IQ issues was mind blowing. I honestly thought it was the ugliest looking performance mode in years and I was gaslit here on gaf just for mentioning it. Thank god for mods who chose not to ban me, and gamingtech and reddit for fighting the good fight because GG was in complete denial about it for a good few weeks.

 

[CGNoire]

lol It's a great game. Dont let the mentally deranged users and mods over at era discourage you from experiencing it. The game can still look marvelous at times.

I think their behavior and shutting down any criticism of Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo exclusives has contributed to devs feeling emboldened enough to do these downgrades. Ubisoft and EA dont have these fanbases and mods all over the internet dont feel compelled to shut down criticism towards those third party downgrades. In fact, its celebrated. But criticize a first party game and you are labeled a concern troll. GAF is actually the only place that allows criticism of all first party.

As for DF, they are in bed with all these AAA studios. The way they glossed over HFW's performance mode IQ issues was mind blowing. I honestly thought it was the ugliest looking performance mode in years and I was gaslit here on gaf just for mentioning it. Thank god for mods who chose not to ban me, and gamingtech and reddit for fighting the good fight because GG was in complete denial about it for a good few weeks.

Yah DF was pretty awesome from about 2011-2018 but there popularity blew up and ever since then there integrity has been plummeting and now they have none.

You can even find Alex over at Beyond3D forum letting his real opinion slip from time to time only to then throw obvious soft balls when on video.This always seems to conveniently happen to games that are either AAA budgeted or games that have a Large Cult audience hhhmmmmm...........

 

[Robbinhood]

I'm a whore like the rest of you (graphics) but I never take tech demos seriously or of any value.

They are marketing tools and are not realistic measures of what creating an actual game is. Seems this gen more than ever people are so hung up on these demos. Just compare the games to each other.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

Ah fuck, I thought these were in game. Its why I kind of quieted my criticism.

As I said earlier in the thread I think if Insomniac chose that style of art direction they could make a game that looked a lot like that art on a PS5 at 1080p/30fps and a PS5 Pro at 1440p/60fps.

Look what Rocksteady did with a Jaguar CPU, 5GB of RAM, a 1.3/1.8tf GPU and an old spinning HDD with Arkham Knight in 2015. It's arguably still better looking than most new current gen only games when ran on a modern PC at 4k/60fps and it's assets are almost a decade old.

In short art direction is king and because of a night time setting (which hides a lot of flaws) and a lot of rain which shows the reflections of neon it's far more impressive to our eyes than a bland New York from reality in full daylight which causes a plethora of visuals issues including indirect lighting and no where for the lower quality assets to hide.

I guarantee you next time they show Spider-Man 2 it will be during the night with rain and lots of RT reflections while Miles is flying through the city at break neck speeds and people will do a 180 on it's visuals lol.