Masterofchapter
Banned
I think av
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
Masterofchapter
Banned
I don't think avatar frontiers of Pandora downgraded we have to wait for pc gameplay footage which tends to look better than consoles, and the game lighting got brighter in overview over first look trailer
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Masterofchapter
Banned
New avatar frontiers of Pandora video looks awesome
GymWolf
Member
I expect ubisoft to do worse with an open world compared to ND on a small environment (dah), we really need to wait ND, what ubisoft does is inconsequential to this debate
GymWolf
Member
The flashilight, it's the damn flashlight.
arkhamguy123
Banned
If avatar ships 30fps only and ND next game does 60fps you can bet avatar will crush whatever ND puts out. Linear or otherwise.
Masterofchapter
Banned
Yeah we have to wait for ubisofts splinter cell remake next gen snowdrop to last of us 3
GymWolf
Member
Nd is gonna release a 30 fps game aswell, don't worry.
ND has a massive reputation to protect as a studio that pushes visuals to their max so 30fps is most likely. Factions will probably be 60fps because it's multiplayer, but it will be very surprising if TLOU3 isn't 30fps. There's no way a game will be a graphical benchmark on consoles while it also has 60fps option. The amount of outcry regarding Spiderman 2 just proves that console gamers care more about visual upgrades than 60fps.
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CanYouFlyBobby?
Banned
Has any game come close to this yet?
Schmendrick
Member
Nope. UE5 so far has only proven itself as being good PR material.
Real products that would approach those lofty promises have yet to hit the market.
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Masterofchapter
Banned
Because is a vertical slice
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I honestly think tlou2 still looks better at least in some partsIt's the same damn engine. That particular shot they changed to have different lighting for what was a flashback sequence in the sequel. But that lighting is present in several scenes in TLOU2.
What I wanted them to do was go back and get the bullshot character model they created for Joel, and put that in the remake. But they couldnt even do that. This was obviously a fake cg character model they created speficically for that trailer to fool people into thinking joel was in the sequel, but I would've loved to have seen this level of fidelity in the PS5 only remake.
We got this which is ok, but nothing like that above.
Agreed. I think Part 1 is less consistent visually because it's been passed around from one studio to another.
The only thing that came close for me was a little slice Coalition made for their UE5 test (fully real time running on Series X). I'll be surprised if this demo isn't surpassed in the next couple of years.
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It takes time , reworking the engine , creating Hollywood assets (detail) couple of years , 4 - 6
Pharaoh 117
Member
Was going to test the Unreal 5.2 Forest demo to see how it runs on my PC but I didn't know you have to pay to download it.
GymWolf
Member
Character wise, senua looks better, location wise, not even close.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
Yeah the public now expect 40 hour games when it comes to action adventure along with many RPGtropes which is why even the likes of God of War have had things like coloured loot, talent points and xp added when they're meant to be more than ever about the narrative and combat feel...
For SM2 I think Insomniac have earned our benefit of the doubt tbh because without them the first two years of this gen would have been much, much worse than it already was. Playing SM Remastered, Miles and Ratchet made me feel I hadn't wasted $500 when it comes to my PS5. They'll show SM2 again in the month before launch and if it still looks as underwhelming I'll be there with you with my pitchfork haha but I expect it to look much, much better than it did a month ago and they still have another 14 weeks to polish from last Friday (on top of the build we saw in early June being from March or April if history is any indication on E3 demos).
Believe me they heard the criticisms online despite the enthusiast press licking their asses on twitter about it looking like the second coming but they know and will want to have with no doubts the best looking game of the year with SM2 which will be hard to do in a year of Jedi Survivor, FFXVI, Alan Wake 2, Forza Motorsport, 2077: Phantom Liberty, AC Mirage, Silent Hill and Starfield. Don't count them out yet
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
Not that it matters but LM3 was 30fps not 60fps but it was one of the few impressive looking first party published games that ran at full 1080p 90% of the time when docked. Most first party published Nintendo games target dynamic 900p when docked and very rarely hit it due to the slow ass memory bandwidth meaning 720p is the norm when docked in most visually taxing games.
The next Switch can't get here soon enough. I'm far more excited for that than a PS5 Pro tbh if only because it means that I can play modern games in handheld mode above 540p/25fps
Honestly seeing this gif having just rewatched the UE5 demo posted above which has the same setting made HFW look hella cartoony in comparison and made me realize how none of today’s games are even close to these demos graphically and to photorealism in general and how we still have some work to do to get there.
It is amazing how we think some games look really good until something more advanced graphically comes along which makes said games pale in comparison.
UE5 demo in question:
Damn you're right, it was 30fps. Being able to play it at 60 on PC made me forget about the framerate on target hardware, lol.Not that it matters but LM3 was 30fps not 60fps but it was one of the few impressive looking first party published games that ran at full 1080p 90% of the time when docked. Most first party published Nintendo games target dynamic 900p when docked and very rarely hit it due to the slow ass memory bandwidth meaning 720p is the norm when docked in most visually taxing games.
The next Switch can't get here soon enough. I'm far more excited for that than a PS5 Pro tbh if only because it means that I can play modern games in handheld mode above 540p/25fps
The biggest difference between HFW and that UE5 demo is the lighting and level of geometry. The lighting is what makes the biggest difference to visuals and HFW lighting is held back by the fact that it had to run on PS4 as well. Asset quality is also higher in UE5 demo, but HFW assets still hold up pretty well.
Yeah for sure, the HFW assets hold up very well but to me it's not just the lighting, it is the fidelity itself, it looks more realistic than HFW which looks cartoony in comparison. Games still look cartoony and this is where The Matrix demo blew me away the fact it looked realistic or close to realism. We don't notice this with games until better looking games come out which render those old games cartoony, and then it is rinse and repeat until we reach photorealism.
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The cartoony look that HFW has is very much intentional by the devs as Horizon series aims for more stylised look. The main reason they do this is because they don't have the hardware to push photorealism and by going with stylised visuals they make sure visuals impress and hold up better.
You're right though, Matrix demo is the first time we saw graphics mimick photorealism and actually hold up somewhat. I still think games that go for photorealism this gen will show their age quickly once PS6 rolls around as photorealistic graphics age the worst. Current gen hardware still isn't powerful enough to do photorealism, but for the first time it's capable of at least mimicking it. Tim Sweeny said you need around 40tflops GPU to do photorealism and we should be there by next gen. Hopefully we're all alive by then, lol.
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TheRedRiders
Member
This is not entirely true. A game like Death Stranding, does a good job at trying to aim for photo-realism, this was the vision of Kojima and subsequently the art directors.
I think we need to realise that games by their nature are born out of art, simply trying to aim for photo-realism is a narrow minded goal for the future of graphics. Look at the new Avatar game, I would hardly call it photorealistic but it's still very impressive on a technical level through things like lighting, foliage and animations.
Horizon would look very boring visually had it aimed for photorealistic visuals, the colour pallet would take a huge hit and the game would lose a lot of what made it beautiful. I know people criticise its lighting, and i agree it can be inconsistent but if they implement a solution like ray-traced global illumination, it will dramatically change the games visuals, even on the developer scale, the art design will have to be reworked.
The reason Kojima can go for photorealism on the same engine imo is because he has very little going on in the world and on the map. Horizon is a very dense game with many NPCs and map full of assets and geometry. If Death Stranding had as many fully modelled NPCs and world geometry then I think photorealism that the game was going for would be of far lesser quality and just wouldn't hold up as it does. And then there's a fact that the photorealistic look of DS just ages poorly in comparison, just look at how DS2 is already making DS graphics look dated.
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Piggoro
Member
I still can't see Next Gen in Frontiers of Pandora. Some elements/shot get close'ish to Horizon level but some old, junky and pretty last gen (especially shooting in the human base area). Am I just spoiled or missing something?
ChiefDada
Member
Trust me, it's because of the lighting. If Horizon had RT based lighting, it would be the best looking game. The geometry is excellent, the animation is very good and I would say second only to ND/TLOU, textures and NPCs are first class as well. Lighting is the only major visual limitation for Horizon to overcome.
I played GoW Ragnarok, HFW - Burning Shores, TLOU 1&2 all over the past 2 days. They will all look pretty bad from a AAA fidelity standpoint by the end of 2024.
I agree with the ideology for most of what you're saying EXCEPT I don't think we're asking for photorealism at the expense of artistic vision. An example of that would be that one trending ue5 game with the cop chasing the perp using the shaky cam. I'm on record saying I do NOT want my games to look like that. We want realistic light within the artistic vision. Thankfully we have an idea of what Horizon can look like with photorealistic lighting implemented within the Horizon artistic vision. Call me crazy but I believe we get there this gen for sure.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Die hard man is my most realistic guy
Didnt they say that UE5 demo had 8k textures
8K textures brought over and then downsampled.
The lighting, material quality and level of detail is well beyond even Matrix demo. It's CGI after all. Maybe we can get to 70-80% of that in cutscenes and that's about it imo. It just seems like something that is a generation away still.
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arkhamguy123
Banned
Well there’s maybe like 1 or 2 games for next Gen tops that could “spoil” someone graphically speaking so I’m gonna go with “missing something”
The scale of the world combined with the detail of the world and the foliage density and lighting is simply next generation as fuck. Yeah some of the shooting parts looked like far cry but when the worst part of your game looks like far cry 5 maxed out on pc you’re doing something right
Masterofchapter
Banned
Lol you serious frontiers of Pandora looks leap above horizon forbidden west interms of looks and details. Horizon looks souless compared to frontiers of Pandora world
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
If the final game looks like this bullshot they released then great. I really like the reflections in the windows here.Yeah the public now expect 40 hour games when it comes to action adventure along with many RPGtropes which is why even the likes of God of War have had things like coloured loot, talent points and xp added when they're meant to be more than ever about the narrative and combat feel...
For SM2 I think Insomniac have earned our benefit of the doubt tbh because without them the first two years of this gen would have been much, much worse than it already was. Playing SM Remastered, Miles and Ratchet made me feel I hadn't wasted $500 when it comes to my PS5. They'll show SM2 again in the month before launch and if it still looks as underwhelming I'll be there with you with my pitchfork haha but I expect it to look much, much better than it did a month ago and they still have another 14 weeks to polish from last Friday (on top of the build we saw in early June being from March or April if history is any indication on E3 demos).
Believe me they heard the criticisms online despite the enthusiast press licking their asses on twitter about it looking like the second coming but they know and will want to have with no doubts the best looking game of the year with SM2 which will be hard to do in a year of Jedi Survivor, FFXVI, Alan Wake 2, Forza Motorsport, 2077: Phantom Liberty, AC Mirage, Silent Hill and Starfield. Don't count them out yet
The first shot of the trailer also look absolutely stunning and had a very next gen feel to it. Sadly the very next shot looked last gen as fuck so im not sure whats going on.
Then there is the actual asset quality in the game. It is honestly baffling how bad it looks. No amount of polish is going to give these textures a nanite look.
Then there is this character model that will simply never get the next gen upgrade.
Honestly, the more they will show of the game, the worst it will look. This was a curated vertical slice like those Days Gone, TLOU and Horizon FW E3 demos. The final game will probably look worse because the dirty little secret is that this is or was probably a PS4 title and they just couldnt go back and update the graphics in time. I would not be surprised if Sony pull a Horizon, Miles, GOW and GT7 and announce a PS4 version after announcing this as a PS5 game like they did with those games. Because there is literally no real upgrade here.
When you have jstevenson making excuses like watch on OLED and everything will look fine, you know there will not be a big upgrade coming. The original reveal trailer they 'captured' from a PS5 was clearly a lie and they are too chicken shit to admit that.
The first reveal trailer was shown 2 years ago. We already got the downgrade. The same downgrade we have seen time and time again from sony studios. TLOU2, Days Gone, HFW, fucking Ghost of Tsushima which for some bizarre reason flies under the radar. It's really disappointing to see this trend from studios that used to be very upfront about their games in the PS3 and early PS4 gen, but the trend does not point to the game receiving an upgrade. Expect it to look worse.
Piggoro
Member
Well, I guess there's something off with my eyes. I'm not trying to be a contrarian or concern-troll but I personally don't see any glaring improvements re: HFW. And I see a bunch of pretty ugly stuff here and there. Although, HFW also looks pretty uneven (interior lighting, etc).
Edit: I've just re-watched the world premiere trailer. It does look pretty meh for me: weird low-detailed character/NPC models, outright ugly stuff around human base interiors, all animations are really bad (no weight or physicality whatsoever), abysmal explosions, jungle and nature still look more cartoony and flat/artificial than nature in HZD.
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ChiefDada
Member
Post processing is main visual pass feature missing from SM2. That's why the gameplay trailer often looks worse than SM Remastered and Miles Morales. It's not for me to defend insomniac but that's just what I see going on here. Ultimately they chose to show what they did so you guys aren't wrong to bash it. It's fair reaction until they show otherwise. I still think this will be the best looking game this year. As far as Avatar vs HFW, I also say wait because that trailer looked unfinished as well. Plenty vfx to clean up but I think there's enough evidence already on display to count on their lighting system being a much better solution for the environments than HFW.
Masterofchapter
Banned
You should check overview trailer and the npcs are varied more alive and the variety of vegetation is well above anything horizon done
arkhamguy123
Banned
Dude it won’t even be the best looking game the month it comes out lol
arkhamguy123
Banned
Jesus everytime I think “was the gaming community too hard on SP2?” I see bits from that demo and think nah they weren’t fucking hard enough on SP2If the final game looks like this bullshot they released then great. I really like the reflections in the windows here.
The first shot of the trailer also look absolutely stunning and had a very next gen feel to it. Sadly the very next shot looked last gen as fuck so im not sure whats going on.
Then there is the actual asset quality in the game. It is honestly baffling how bad it looks. No amount of polish is going to give these textures a nanite look.
Then there is this character model that will simply never get the next gen upgrade.
Honestly, the more they will show of the game, the worst it will look. This was a curated vertical slice like those Days Gone, TLOU and Horizon FW E3 demos. The final game will probably look worse because the dirty little secret is that this is or was probably a PS4 title and they just couldnt go back and update the graphics in time. I would not be surprised if Sony pull a Horizon, Miles, GOW and GT7 and announce a PS4 version after announcing this as a PS5 game like they did with those games. Because there is literally no real upgrade here.
When you have jstevenson making excuses like watch on OLED and everything will look fine, you know there will not be a big upgrade coming. The original reveal trailer they 'captured' from a PS5 was clearly a lie and they are too chicken shit to admit that.
The first reveal trailer was shown 2 years ago. We already got the downgrade. The same downgrade we have seen time and time again from sony studios. TLOU2, Days Gone, HFW, fucking Ghost of Tsushima which for some bizarre reason flies under the radar. It's really disappointing to see this trend from studios that used to be very upfront about their games in the PS3 and early PS4 gen, but the trend does not point to the game receiving an upgrade. Expect it to look worse.
Jesus Christ they DOWNGRADED their ocean simulation and asset from the PS4 game. They used the EXACT same explosion VFX package as the PS4 game. The lighting, the textures, even the goddamn animations (Spider-Man levitating slide like Michael Jackson when he does the O evade + that henchmen that couldn’t even make it to the other end of the house like it seemed like he was supposed to with the new web grab)
I genuinely cannot believe a first party flagship blockbuster AAA playstation game came out the gate like that after that dogshit showcase and no footage for 2 years. Starfield is how you show off a premium exclusive title. God Spider-Man 2 almost broke me as well slimy snake thanks for reminding me
mxbison
Member
I wholeheartedly agree. I do think it is due to hardware limitation it does not look as good as the UE5 demo and that's the first thing I said in my post that we are still a ways away from reaching that realism in games found in demos. However The Matrix demo was a playable demo which gives me hope that this gen can at least get us close to The Matrix demo graphically which would be a huge leap in my opinion.
As for Tim Sweeny's remarks regarding photorealism, we do have now ~40 tflops GPU's in the market today. By the time PS6 rolls out it should well exceed that number. So going by what he said the PS6 should easily do photorealism.
I agree, lighting makes a world of difference but I think it is a matter of more than just lighting. It is lighting, textures, geometry, animations, physics among other things that make up the entire graphical fidelity of a game which made the demo look much more realistic. I'd argue about HFW's animations though, the fact you can roll on the ground upwards on a mountain is surely not realistic
.Having said that, if Horizon 3 does end up looking like that cinematic trailer that you posted then it would be the best looking game ever made (unless something even better looking came out which I doubt this gen). The cinematic trailer is the kinda graphics I want from this gen but not sure it is possible but at the same time I feel if that's the maximum we can get from the PS6 then I would be disappointed. I dunno if I am being unrealistic with my high standards and expectations lol after all I am not very technical.
Where we disagree though is that you do not want your games to look realistic and you hated that cop chasing shaky cam demo which I have loved honestly. When I watched it, that very high level of graphical fidelity lured me into thinking I was actually in the game, the immersion was unbelievable and it is thanks to graphics I felt this immersed honestly.
Honestly I am not sure but I do remember the textures had a high poly count so yeah that could be it.
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How come it would look very boring? Imagine HFW looking like that UE5 demo, the desert in HFW looks like that desert in the UE5 demo. How is that boring? If anything that would be mind-blowing I'd probably never turn the game off lol.
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Oh my God I am getting PTSDs man, why post this Slimy? Jesus, just when I thought it did not look as ugly as I thought it did you post these and I go "naaaah this game is fuuugly". I cannot believe there are actually people out there mainly on Twitter and YouTube praising this game's visuals. It's because of people like them we are getting sub-par garbage from devs. I swear there are some parts in the PS4 version that actually really look better than Spidey 2. Even if it was a cross-gen game how can some aspects of it look worse than the original? Baffling, absolutely fucking baffling.If the final game looks like this bullshot they released then great. I really like the reflections in the windows here.
The first shot of the trailer also look absolutely stunning and had a very next gen feel to it. Sadly the very next shot looked last gen as fuck so im not sure whats going on.
Then there is the actual asset quality in the game. It is honestly baffling how bad it looks. No amount of polish is going to give these textures a nanite look.
Then there is this character model that will simply never get the next gen upgrade.
Honestly, the more they will show of the game, the worst it will look. This was a curated vertical slice like those Days Gone, TLOU and Horizon FW E3 demos. The final game will probably look worse because the dirty little secret is that this is or was probably a PS4 title and they just couldnt go back and update the graphics in time. I would not be surprised if Sony pull a Horizon, Miles, GOW and GT7 and announce a PS4 version after announcing this as a PS5 game like they did with those games. Because there is literally no real upgrade here.
When you have jstevenson making excuses like watch on OLED and everything will look fine, you know there will not be a big upgrade coming. The original reveal trailer they 'captured' from a PS5 was clearly a lie and they are too chicken shit to admit that.
The first reveal trailer was shown 2 years ago. We already got the downgrade. The same downgrade we have seen time and time again from sony studios. TLOU2, Days Gone, HFW, fucking Ghost of Tsushima which for some bizarre reason flies under the radar. It's really disappointing to see this trend from studios that used to be very upfront about their games in the PS3 and early PS4 gen, but the trend does not point to the game receiving an upgrade. Expect it to look worse.
The thing about Teraflops is that from 30 series Nvidia GPUs onwards they're no longer 1:1 in relation to performance as they were before that. For example, 2080Ti is 13.5 tflops while 3070 that is identical to it in performance is 20.3 tflops. AMD GPUs are even more skewed in this regard as their new 7000 series GPUs have more tflops than Nvidia ones and yet are slower in performance. Before 30 series by Nvidia and 7000 by AMD teraflops were a valid way of measuring GPU across board. So really we need around 60+ tflops of current GPU power to have 40 tflops equivalent of RDNA2 GPUs in consoles, which means it's a GPU that has to be more powerful than RTX 4080 and RX 7900XTX. By the time next consoles arrive we should have GPUs of that calibre affordable enough for $500 consoles.
There's also a possibility of both Sony and Microsoft making an affordable console like Series S next gen, which would make all this irrelevant as the lowest common denominator would mean there'll be no such thing as photorealism. Microsoft has already done this and Jim Ryan mentioned that Sony thought about doing this, which means it could be on the cards by both manufacturers next gen. Hopefully it doesn't happen, but it most likely will going by how well Series S sells in comparison to X.
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