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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

hlm666

Member
Both nvidia starting with 3000 series GPUs and AMD with 7000 series GPUs have been inflating their tflops counts. Not entirely sure what Nvidia does, but AMD is saying that they are now able to push 4 instructions per cycle instead of the 2 they did before. Since the formula to calculate tflops uses that metric, they have essentially doubled their tflops count while the performance has remained largely the same.
The numbers are technically right it's just they can't be fully utilised because in a game as you can't always do the calculations the way you need to to hit max theoretical. I can't remember the specifics of AMD but if those 4 instructions per cycle need to be a specific type (like say fp16) and you need to do some fp32 or integer you now can't issue those 4 instructions in the one cycle. Nvidia has a similar problem, again I can't remember the exact specifics on this but their fp32 and tflops are accurate if your only doing fp32, if your game is throwing integer math down the pipeline with fp32 you lose half your fp32 to do the integer math. I think they can throw fp16 and lower fp instructions at the tensor cores though and that doesn't effect the fp32 performance.
 

SolidQ

Gold Member
Look what Rocksteady did with a Jaguar CPU, 5GB of RAM, a 1.3/1.8tf GPU and an old spinning HDD with Arkham Knight in 2015. It's arguably still better looking than most new current gen only games when ran on a modern PC at 4k/60fps and it's assets are almost a decade old.
They waste resources on 4k. Max should be 1440p, until game 2D or indie game, then add 4k.
 

ChiefDada

Gold Member
As I said earlier in the thread I think if Insomniac chose that style of art direction they could make a game that looked a lot like that art on a PS5 at 1080p/30fps and a PS5 Pro at 1440p/60fps.

Look what Rocksteady did with a Jaguar CPU, 5GB of RAM, a 1.3/1.8tf GPU and an old spinning HDD with Arkham Knight in 2015. It's arguably still better looking than most new current gen only games when ran on a modern PC at 4k/60fps and it's assets are almost a decade old.

In short art direction is king and because of a night time setting (which hides a lot of flaws) and a lot of rain which shows the reflections of neon it's far more impressive to our eyes than a bland New York from reality in full daylight which causes a plethora of visuals issues including indirect lighting and no where for the lower quality assets to hide.

I guarantee you next time they show Spider-Man 2 it will be during the night with rain and lots of RT reflections while Miles is flying through the city at break neck speeds and people will do a 180 on it's visuals lol.

Interesting post. I agree/disagree on certain points. I think historically games have had a much more difficult time with night rendering more than daytime. This is true for Insomniac's most recent SM release, Miles Morales. MM had really good lighting during the day; clear sky preset was great. But at night, the exterior city lighting emanating from the skyscrapers gave the entire scene an overexposed look. They really struggled with light locality. That's why I was VERY pleased with the reveal trailer. Check out the lighting in the background. All of the lightbulbs emitting with perfect amount of radiance you would expect from a lightbulb in the real world, = more excellent shading, shadows = convincing scene depth and realism.

cAm3ij8.gif


The SM2 gameplay reveal was not a good showing for daytime rendering. I've already expressed my opinion here on why that was the case but I agree their night rendering will be amazing. They really did a great job with Nefarious City in Ratchet.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
The numbers are technically right it's just they can't be fully utilised because in a game as you can't always do the calculations the way you need to to hit max theoretical. I can't remember the specifics of AMD but if those 4 instructions per cycle need to be a specific type (like say fp16) and you need to do some fp32 or integer you now can't issue those 4 instructions in the one cycle. Nvidia has a similar problem, again I can't remember the exact specifics on this but their fp32 and tflops are accurate if your only doing fp32, if your game is throwing integer math down the pipeline with fp32 you lose half your fp32 to do the integer math. I think they can throw fp16 and lower fp instructions at the tensor cores though and that doesn't effect the fp32 performance.
So why even do this? Just to get higher tflops numbers they can market in PR releases? Or is something they could easily do and they figured what the hell, why not?

I have honestly not seen a massive difference in performance when going from a 11 tflops 2080 to a 30 tflops 3080. Its basically a 20 tflops GPU in comparison. I get roughly double the perfrmance in some games which im fine with, but not the 3x performance the tflops suggested. AMD is literally doing the same with the 7900xt being around 15% faster than the 23 tflops 6950xt despite having 52 tflops. Is it something devs can code for? Like manually go in and determine which instructions can be bundled in efficiently. I dont see anyone taking advantage of this for mid gen refreshes. Maybe next gen?

just seems like a waste of time. id rather they focus on adding more rt cores and more tensor cores. Both AMD and Nvidia suggested that they have improved their RT performance per core, but im honestly not seeing a huge difference. the 4070 is identical to the 3080 in standard rasterization and identical in RT performance. I was looking at RT performance of 7900xt in the PS5 Pro thread and its roughly on par with the standard rasterization difference. give or take 10%. not the 50% they promised. Id rather they focus on adding some kind of ML hardware and or more dedicated RT cores than faking tflops.
 

alloush

Member
This GTA6 leak is probably fake but lets say if it isnt, is this next gen enough for everyone here?


Some aspects of this look nice but some don’t. So if I had to give an answer then no, this aint next gen enough for me. Watching this I couldn’t help but compare it to The Matrix demo in my head and by God The Matrix demo looks a whole gen ahead of this. It’s probably fake but I reckon the game will be very similar to this graphically. I remember seeing folks on here saying GTA 6 will trump The Matrix demo graphically, lol.
 

alloush

Member
Interesting post. I agree/disagree on certain points. I think historically games have had a much more difficult time with night rendering more than daytime. This is true for Insomniac's most recent SM release, Miles Morales. MM had really good lighting during the day; clear sky preset was great. But at night, the exterior city lighting emanating from the skyscrapers gave the entire scene an overexposed look. They really struggled with light locality. That's why I was VERY pleased with the reveal trailer. Check out the lighting in the background. All of the lightbulbs emitting with perfect amount of radiance you would expect from a lightbulb in the real world, = more excellent shading, shadows = convincing scene depth and realism.

cAm3ij8.gif


The SM2 gameplay reveal was not a good showing for daytime rendering. I've already expressed my opinion here on why that was the case but I agree their night rendering will be amazing. They really did a great job with Nefarious City in Ratchet.
No way the game will look like the shot above in your post at night. I cannot foresee it. If the game looked like that at night then you bet your ass it woulda looked much much better during the day in the reveal trailer. There is a whole gen difference graphically between the shot above and the reveal trailer.
 

ChiefDada

Gold Member
No way the game will look like the shot above in your post at night. I cannot foresee it. If the game looked like that at night then you bet your ass it woulda looked much much better during the day in the reveal trailer. There is a whole gen difference graphically between the shot above and the reveal trailer.

FFXVI is probably the perfect example of how such a scenario is possible.
 
Some aspects of this look nice but some don’t. So if I had to give an answer then no, this aint next gen enough for me. Watching this I couldn’t help but compare it to The Matrix demo in my head and by God The Matrix demo looks a whole gen ahead of this. It’s probably fake but I reckon the game will be very similar to this graphically. I remember seeing folks on here saying GTA 6 will trump The Matrix demo graphically, lol.
If I read about the Matrix demo one more time as some sort of attainable graphics benchmark in a real game 😤
Anyone got an idea what that could be? It's incredibly well done.
 

ChiefDada

Gold Member
Interesting. You played FFXVI and I haven't so in that regard you know better.

I highly recommend playing the demo, at least, if you already haven't, just for a feel of current gen. Production value stays pretty high throughout the 2hrs play time.

I hate when people throw around "PS3 level graphics" to describe subpar PS4 and PS5 visuals. I think it's most often hyperbolic and undervalues whichever game being discussed. There are areas in FFXVI that rightfully deserve that description or very close to it. At best they are very very early PS4 looking from a second tier studio. I don't think I've ever said that about any game I've played over the last 5yrs or so.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I highly recommend playing the demo, at least, if you already haven't, just for a feel of current gen. Production value stays pretty high throughout the 2hrs play time.

I hate when people throw around "PS3 level graphics" to describe subpar PS4 and PS5 visuals. I think it's most often hyperbolic and undervalues whichever game being discussed. There are areas in FFXVI that rightfully deserve that description or very close to it. At best they are very very early PS4 looking from a second tier studio. I don't think I've ever said that about any game I've played over the last 5yrs or so.
Yeah, this is one game that fits the description of PS3 level graphics.

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But then it can turn around and look absolutely gobsmacking gorgeous, especially in cutscenes.

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Game should be called FF16: Jekyll and Hyde.
 

alloush

Member
I highly recommend playing the demo, at least, if you already haven't, just for a feel of current gen. Production value stays pretty high throughout the 2hrs play time.

I hate when people throw around "PS3 level graphics" to describe subpar PS4 and PS5 visuals. I think it's most often hyperbolic and undervalues whichever game being discussed. There are areas in FFXVI that rightfully deserve that description or very close to it. At best they are very very early PS4 looking from a second tier studio. I don't think I've ever said that about any game I've played over the last 5yrs or so.
I’ve played the demo for like 15 minutes and so far the visuals are alright with some scenes looking the part. I wanna resume it once I go back to playing as I haven’t touched the PS in a little while but will definitely give it a shot and see what the fuss is about.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
You're usually the main holdout.
Nah, after seeing Star Wars, starfield, avatar and FF16, I am basically the chiefdada and rofif of this thread in that i see next gen in everything. There are other dudes like gymwolf, alloush, midgenrefresh and HR2 who are still holding strong.

Some aspects of this look nice but some don’t. So if I had to give an answer then no, this aint next gen enough for me. Watching this I couldn’t help but compare it to The Matrix demo in my head and by God The Matrix demo looks a whole gen ahead of this. It’s probably fake but I reckon the game will be very similar to this graphically. I remember seeing folks on here saying GTA 6 will trump The Matrix demo graphically, lol.
the car scenes look stunning but the wilderness shots look fairly last gen. TBH, that gives me hope because the game start off as a last gen game so they could only upgrade so many things.

But in all likelyhood, the car scenes are likely lifted straight out of some UE5 demo.
 

Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
Nah, after seeing Star Wars, starfield, avatar and FF16, I am basically the chiefdada and rofif of this thread in that i see next gen in everything. There are other dudes like gymwolf, alloush, midgenrefresh and HR2 who are still holding strong
You're the OG though, but that's cool. Glad you're enjoying some graphics then. I couldn't resist the joke opportunity lol.
 

alloush

Member
Nah, after seeing Star Wars, starfield, avatar and FF16, I am basically the chiefdada and rofif of this thread in that i see next gen in everything. There are other dudes like gymwolf, alloush, midgenrefresh and HR2 who are still holding strong.


the car scenes look stunning but the wilderness shots look fairly last gen. TBH, that gives me hope because the game start off as a last gen game so they could only upgrade so many things.

But in all likelyhood, the car scenes are likely lifted straight out of some UE5 demo.
Assuming this was real haha, but yeah just rewatched it the car scenes looked insane indeed. It did look too good to be fake though but I am like 99% sure it was.
 

Represent.

Represent(ative) of bad opinions
This GTA6 leak is probably fake but lets say if it isnt, is this next gen enough for everyone here?


This looks fucking good. I hope its real. Potato quality and its still looking solid.

The best thing in that trailer was the explosion. Thats a fucking next gen explosion.
 

Alex11

Member
Even if the Gta6 trailer is real who cares about cutscene visuals?

There is a strange focus here on cutscenes ..
Yeah, even more now since the release of FF, in which there are pre-rendered cutscenes mixed with real time cutscenes. Or they might not be exactly pre-rendered, but I have seen some cutscenes in which some effects or water had way higher fidelity than another cutscene or gameplay in that same scenario.

I like cutscenes and set pieces as much as the next guy but also judge a game graphics that are shown in the actual gameplay.
 
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H . R . 2

Member
This GTA6 leak is probably fake but lets say if it isnt, is this next gen enough for everyone here?


If this is the real deal, why is it not taken down yet?
Rockstar would definitely reveal the characters and show their faces
Also are we supposed to believe the guy can watch the trailer with the volume turned all the way up but he can't upload the video to the net and has to record off screen because...sneaky ?!

it's rather Interesting though
It does have that GTA look
Very nicely edited as well
But besides the car scenes, the visuals are not that amazing, looks last-gen for the most part

It's most likely fake but if this is the actual reveal trailer, this thread is going to have a meltdown
 
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If this is the real deal, why is it not taken down yet?
Rockstar would definitely reveal the characters and show their faces
Also are we supposed to believe the guy can watch the trailer with the volume turned all the way up but he can't upload the video to the net and has to record off screen because...sneaky ?!

it's rather Interesting though
It does have that GTA look
Very nicely edited as well
But besides the car scenes, the visuals are not that amazing, looks last-gen for the most part

It's most likely fake but if this is the actual reveal trailer, this thread is going to have a meltdown
It's fake character models move like trash
 
New video from DF showing off Nanite used for leaves foliage, etc.

This new UE5 demo probably has its own thread but couldn't find one at a glance.


 

M.W.

Member


Amsterdam mission in MW2 is probably the closest comparison of what I expect GTA VI to look like. Just give me those graphics with Metal Gear Solid 5 gameplay and I'll be in heaven


What's also great here is the 60fps. I hope GTAVI launches with a performance mode. But, probably not.
 

hlm666

Member
So why even do this? Just to get higher tflops numbers they can market in PR releases? Or is something they could easily do and they figured what the hell, why not?

I have honestly not seen a massive difference in performance when going from a 11 tflops 2080 to a 30 tflops 3080. Its basically a 20 tflops GPU in comparison. I get roughly double the perfrmance in some games which im fine with, but not the 3x performance the tflops suggested. AMD is literally doing the same with the 7900xt being around 15% faster than the 23 tflops 6950xt despite having 52 tflops. Is it something devs can code for? Like manually go in and determine which instructions can be bundled in efficiently. I dont see anyone taking advantage of this for mid gen refreshes. Maybe next gen?

just seems like a waste of time. id rather they focus on adding more rt cores and more tensor cores. Both AMD and Nvidia suggested that they have improved their RT performance per core, but im honestly not seeing a huge difference. the 4070 is identical to the 3080 in standard rasterization and identical in RT performance. I was looking at RT performance of 7900xt in the PS5 Pro thread and its roughly on par with the standard rasterization difference. give or take 10%. not the 50% they promised. Id rather they focus on adding some kind of ML hardware and or more dedicated RT cores than faking tflops.
They do it to squeeze more performance out of the die space, and in nvidias case these changes were probably made because of datacentre and the gaming parts inherited the design from there. They could design it with dedicated hardware to achieve that performance without caveats but it would make the die bigger and use more power.

As for real world performance, it really depends on the game/engine. Maybe those games with only small gains are not floating point math bound and are getting memory bandwidth bound, you would need to profile them to really understand why the gains are small. I don't think it's useless as we do have some examples of games that show what happens when they manage to get it right. Doom eternal for nvidia seems to get good use out of their architecture and cod on the 7000 series is seeing some outstanding performance gains. I think it could be leveraged better in a console honestly and we would see those kinds of increases more often.

As for RT core performance, the 3080 has 68 rt cores and the 4070 has 46, so if the 4070 is matching the 3080 in RT then there does seem to be some improvement core v core. I'm not sure what to think of amds RT improvements, the way they went about it seems to have been the wrong way. They seem to be heading in the direction nvidia and intel went with proper dedicated cores coming in the future.

I agree tflops as a metric for judging gpu performance is getting pointless, the industry needs to move on from tflops. There are just too many other factors now days and not everything is done with fp32 and ontop memory bandwidth/fillrate don't seem to be making much progress (that's why amd and nvdia have started increasing cache sizes).
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
So GG claims HFW was developed on PS5 first and then ported down to PS4.

Angie Smets, current head of development strategy at PlayStation Studios and previously studio director at Guerrilla Games, said that the team initially focused on the PS5 version of the game, and then the second half of the development period was spent getting the PS4 version up to par.
“In the early part of the project, it was really hard to get the focus on the PS5 and push the quality bar there, and in the second half it was really hard to get the PS4 to catch up,” she said.


Technical director Michiel van der Leeuw further elaborated on some of the challenges, especially when it came to raising the bar of quality on the game’s visuals on the PS5.

This is very interesting because they later say that they wanted the difference between versions to be readily apparent but i honestly dont think they got there.
“We wanted it so that in every Horizon screenshot, you could see the difference,” the technical director explained. “So there was the clouds, the vegetation, the cloth, skin, and we had to look at all these elements and see what we could do because if you had a screenshot, you should always be able to tell which version it is.”

I had posted a comparison video a few pages ago that showed just how similar both versions looked most of the time.

That said, if we are to believe them then it might explain why the game looks so much better than 99% of the cross gen games out there.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
lol It's a great game. Dont let the mentally deranged users and mods over at era discourage you from experiencing it. The game can still look marvelous at times.

I think their behavior and shutting down any criticism of Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo exclusives has contributed to devs feeling emboldened enough to do these downgrades. Ubisoft and EA dont have these fanbases and mods all over the internet dont feel compelled to shut down criticism towards those third party downgrades. In fact, its celebrated. But criticize a first party game and you are labeled a concern troll. GAF is actually the only place that allows criticism of all first party.

As for DF, they are in bed with all these AAA studios. The way they glossed over HFW's performance mode IQ issues was mind blowing. I honestly thought it was the ugliest looking performance mode in years and I was gaslit here on gaf just for mentioning it. Thank god for mods who chose not to ban me, and gamingtech and reddit for fighting the good fight because GG was in complete denial about it for a good few weeks.
Meh, i would not score sushima more than a 7\10 at best.
 
Wait till it runs on a 1.7 tflops steam deck or ps4 equivalent gpus.

Also insomniac is the one being exposed here.

You called it. What a bunch of scum sucking liars these developers are. Common denominator in this case is Sony. I believe Sony encourages their studio heads to all be deceitful. While I believe this to be an industry wide problem I think Sony is one of the least ethical and worst gaming companies out there. With all their incredible success and fanfare, and under the unscrupulous leadership of Jim Ryan, they can pretty much act with impunity.

Pisses me off.
 
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You called it. What a bunch of scum sucking liars these developers are. Common denominator in this case is Sony. I believe Sony encourages their studio heads to all be deceitful. While I believe this to be an industry wide problem I think Sony is one of the least ethical and worst gaming companies out there. With all their incredible success and fanfare, and under the unscrupulous leadership of Jim Ryan, they can pretty much act with impunity.

Pisses me off.
I think the pc port strategy is actually proving to be deleterious. Someone pointed this out in the Spider-Man 2 thread last month but it’s seemingly like instead of pushing the tech and visual boundaries like PS3-PS4 era, they’re kind of reining it in to… well to run on shit like a GTX960, HDD and 8GB of ram for a premium PS5 exclusive.

You could argue TLOU1 is also guilty of this. It runs on the goddamn steam deck if I’m not mistaken. PS3 and PS4 exclusives didn’t have to account for this. It’s like having a series S for every “exclusive” now except even lower.
 
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Represent.

Represent(ative) of bad opinions
What's also great here is the 60fps. I hope GTAVI launches with a performance mode. But, probably not.
Performance modes are pointless (they dont even maintain 60) afterthoughts (they are often sub 1080p and buggy, sometimes not even offered until post-launch) that do nothing but make games longer to develop. I hope they disappear until PRO consoles come out.
 
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Edder1

Member
I think the pc port strategy is actually proving to be deleterious. Someone pointed this out in the Spider-Man 2 thread last month but it’s seemingly like instead of pushing the tech and visual boundaries like PS3-PS4 era, they’re kind of reining it in to… well to run on shit like a GTX960, HDD and 8GB of ram for a premium PS5 exclusive.

You could argue TLOU1 is also guilty of this. It runs on the goddamn steam deck if I’m not mistaken. PS3 and PS4 exclusives didn’t have to account for this. It’s like having a series S for every “exclusive” now except even lower.
Nah. Many top tier games come out for PC alongside consoles, nothing to do with it. Just look at Star Wars Outlaws, that was most definitely running on PC. Remember, Sony games only get porter to PC later by a separate studio, the original titles are developed primarily for PS5 (unless they're live service of course). The real problem is Sony aren't pushing their devs to release top tier looking games like in the past, they're happy for them to recycle same assets in order to maximise profit. Since Jim Ryan took over Sony has been happy releasing cross gen games and reusing old assets. The guy is all about money and squeezing out every possible dollar.
 
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H . R . 2

Member
I read this piece somewhere in defense of R&CRA's not requiring an SSD on PC:

"Nixxes’ port of Rift Apart claimed to be the very first game to implement DirectStorage 1.2, and principal programmer Alex Bartholomeus specifically suggested it’s the reason you can use a traditional hard drive.To enable quick loading and instant transition between dimensions, the game needs to be able to load assets quickly. DirectStorage ensures quick loading times and GPU decompression is used at high graphics settings to stream assets in the background while playing. Traditionally, this decompression is handled by the CPU, but at a certain point there is an advantage to letting the GPU handle this, as this enables a higher bandwidth for streaming assets from storage to the graphics card. We use this to quickly load high-quality textures and environments with a high level of detail.”

is that why Steam Deck, too, is capable of running it? I mean besides the reduced resolution
what do you guys think?

Insomniac are C tier developers.
definitely
I am sure their top-tier devs have moved on to Wolverine as they must have felt confident enough to relinquish control to team B or C because the first two games nailed down the majority of the mechanics as well as the world-building and visuals aspects
 
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