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[Represent.]

Yeah, I've been preaching it forever, Hollywood is WAY ahead of the video games industry. Storytelling, talent, AMBITION, direction, VFX, ambition, and yes, even creativity. Video games are a young medium. All the real Grade-A talent goes to Hollywood and other industries. Look at Ember Lab, a bunch of film guys that made Kena: Bridge of Spirits. Their first ever video game, dev time was short, and it looked amazing for a small indie game. That was pure talent.

Nolan just made a nuclear explosion movie with no CGI.
Napolean will have thousands of extras. Large scale battles.
Avatar 2 was shot with motion capture fucking underwater.

Ambition.

Who is doing anything of equal ambition in the video game space? Not a soul.

We get endless low ambition cross gen shit, multiplatform game development, "performance" modes, etc.

Who are the game changers now? Who is pushing limits and trying new game design?

Hopefully Neil Druckmann was able to pull some talent from the HBO TLOU Show for TLOU 3 -

 

[CGNoire]

Lumen took him 40 minutes to render while PT took 26 hours lol.

God I fucking hate these prerendered vids. Who gives a a shit what UE5 looks like when used as an alternative to blender. I want to see eyebleeding "Realtime" Visuals Goddammit. Im sick of this YT click bait.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Back in the day Insomniac, ND and SSM all used to hire movie guys. They are all in the LA area so not too hard to snatch movie artists.

My guess is that movie execs caught wind of it, and simply started paying them more. Or the video game burnout cycle churned out all the good artists who quit in their mid 30s as they got married and had kids. video games are a young mans game with the constant 2 year long crunch. no one in the right mind would do this.

Matrix was indeed made by 80 guys in 8 months, and some of them were from hollywood vfx studios including folks who worked on the original Matrix and the new Avatar movie.

Insomniac has the talent, ratchet proves this. the problem is that they didnt have the time. 2.5 years is not enough to revamp and retool everything. what they have done here in 2.5 years is remarkable. lets not forget that insomniac produced a near cg looking game just 2 years ago. running at native 4k 40-50 fps. You cant pull visuals like this without SOME hollywood talent.

The scene composition and cutscene direction in spiderman 1 was pretty amazing too. on the PS4. I remember asking if they had some help from hollywood's marvel studio either storyboarding or straight up directing the cutscenes because it was way above their previous work on the PS3 and PS4. But then ratchet came out and looked and moved like a pixar movie. Again, they have the talent, just not the time other sony studios like GG, SSM, ND and Sucker Punch are awarded.

I think they could get very close to those TASM visuals with spiderman 3. Spiderman 2 still feels like a launch window title that isnt the pushing the PS5 to the max. NX Gamer said that the game sits around native 4k most of the time despite the DRS window dropping to 1440p. A 1440p spiderman game would have 2x more of the gpu power to push visuals even more than they are today, but given how they are working on wolverine and have a third team working on some avengers like gaas game, I am not sure if they will push themselves.

FACTS

The game isn't a new level for PS5 as some of you want to believe unfortunately. If it had rt shadows in addition to what they have now then it mighty very. Still hoping on my TV I'll see what some of you see buy it still looks like just a small improvement over Spidey 1 remaster/miles Morales. I'm still more impressed by a few of those Ratchet levels. I really want to be wrong. The improvement to lighting isn't as good as Cyberpunk raster> RT/PT. I'm excited as hell for it to come out but my gut usually turns out to be correct.

 

[Lethal01]

Every industry has its problems and yes marvel studios are overworking their cg artists, but i think the movie industry is in a much better state. these guys had to shoot on site during covid while wearing masks and they still got all their movies out on time. maybe 2-3 month delay at best. meanwhile game devs were working from home and delayed everything by a year and still shipped them broken on day one.

I think the game industry could learn a lot from hollywood. Their shoots are 2-3 months long. the movies are finished in 2-3 years max. we still get auteurs like Christopher Nolan, Martin Scorsese, Michael Mann, Ridley Scott and Denise Villenvue putting out A-tier movies every 2-3 years. Stuff that is so far ahead of what games are doing, it's not even funny. Napolean will be Ridley Scott's 5th war epic with thousands of extras. Game developers havent even attempted one.

Movies have the advantage of being uninteractive, built around the story and again not being ran at 30frames per second on a $500 pc. Nothing Nolan has made is ahead in gameplay.

Film guys have their talents, As do game developers, sometimes collaboration goes well, other times extremely talented people from the industry totally fail when they need to adjust.

Actually talk to people who worked in both and you'd usually hear a lot of respect from people in filmmaking towards game devs

 

[CGNoire]

Actually, there are a lot of scenes in Cyberpunk that lock down the camera and dont let you move around like you could in half life 2. That is when you see the highest LOD models. Just like would in Spiderman 2 close ups.

They are just in first person but they are fully animated and locked just like third person scenes would be.


We shall see. Miles mom looks like shit I agree.

Right now i'd give cutscenes, facial animations and character models to Spiderman based on Peter, Miles, Venom, and MJ. That leaves Kraven and Oscorp Jr, but while Kraven looks plasticy like the screenshots midgen posted above, Harry is still better animated and has better facial expressions.

Insomniac's cutscenes simply look better though CD project probably didnt do themselves any favor by going with retarded first person storytelling that limited what they could do with cutscene composition, cinematography and DoF effects.

I dont know who that kid in blue is supposed to be (Harry?) But he has to be the Fugliest Deepest in Uncanny Valley Ive ever seen a main character be.

Not a single frame of his looks anything but terrifingly creepy. Like WTF?

 

[CGNoire]

Exactly. I'd be curious to see once this comes to PC if the mod community does a texture improvement. So much of the building textures, particularly where it's designed to look like rust or chipped paint, look like low res upscales.

Dat Measly 2x Ram bump

 

[CGNoire]

...and yet Puddlegate was real. Cubemaps mixed with SSR is superior to what they eventualy went with. Asshole Devs love to stoke fan wars.

 

[CGNoire]

You lot with the ridiculous TASM hate is why we never got more Andrew Garfield spiderman movies. He was great and I was surprised to see him get the loudest cheers at the theater. Was totally expected people to cheer louder for Tobey McGuire but its clear that Andrew Garfield and TASM movies were loved, but the internet outrage convinced Sony to kill the franchise and go with safe, formulaic and boring marvel version of Spiderman.

Spiderman has never looked better than it did in TASM 2. Director knew how to shoot and light the action scenes, and hans zimmer killed it with the soundtrack. I cant even remember a single track or setpiece from the generic Tom Holland movies.

TASM1 and 2 for some reason both have vastly superior annimation work than any SM to date hands down. Not sure why they downgraded with Hollands. That Shocker fight has always been peak SM film visuals. I liked Garfields Peter the best.

 

[hlm666]

Movies have the advantage of being uninteractive, built around the story and again not being ran at 30frames per second on a $500 pc. Nothing Nolan has made is ahead in gameplay.

Film guys have their talents, As do game developers, sometimes collaboration goes well, other times extremely talented people from the industry totally fail when they need to adjust.

Actually talk to people who worked in both and you'd usually hear a lot of respect from people in filmmaking towards game devs

Lots of shimmering in the distance in spiderman 2 compared to the 1st in some of those side by sides and this is something the low res gifs full of noise that are always posted hide, assuming they are both using the insomniac upscaler it must have a lower base res or they decided to use fsr for shits n giggles.

 

[PeteBull]

...and yet Puddlegate was real. Cubemaps mixed with SSR is superior to what they eventualy went with. Asshole Devs love to stoke fan wars.

Ofc it was real, any1 with eyes could tell visible downgrade, like any1 with eyes can tell now, visible downgrade from reveal trailer to launch, still considering many of us knew/suspected reveal was just "target render" sm2 graphics doesnt look bad at all, its nice improvement over ps4 and even over crossgen spiderman remaster, hopefully ps5pr0 version will be even more impressive

 

[Xtib81]

That's curious to compare the movie industry to the game industry when the former has no technical constraints. Pardon me but it's much easier, from a technical and technological standpoint, to make a movie than to make a game, it has nothing to do with talent. If anything, I was way more impressed by CGI 10-15 years ago (see pirates of the Caribbeans, transformers etc..) than what we have today.

 

[GymWolf]

I dont know who that kid in blue is supposed to be (Harry?) But he has to be the Fugliest Deepest in Uncanny Valley Ive ever seen a main character be.

Not a single frame of his looks anything but terrifingly creepy. Like WTF?

Yeah, they did henry dirty in this one.

I have no idea how they can fuck up main characters like him, mj and miles mom so much.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

If they used fsr for spiderman 2 I will tear my hair out. Modern Warfare 2 on ps5 uses fsr from base 1080p ..looks baaaad!

Lots of shimmering in the distance in spiderman 2 compared to the 1st in some of those side by sides and this is something the low res gifs full of noise that are always posted hide, assuming they are both using the insomniac upscaler it must have a lower base res or they decided to use fsr for shits n giggles.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Yeah cause the film industry is doing so well these days. Just a beacon of creativity and innovation.

We’re talking about cgi

And taking what you’re saying, even in its current dogshit state it still dunks on gaming artistically

 

[arkhamguy123]

That's curious to compare the movie industry to the game industry when the former has no technical contraints. Pardon me but it's much easier, from a technical and technological standpoint, to make a movie than to make a game, it has nothing to do with talent. If anything, I was way more impressed by CGI 10-15 years ago (see pirates of the Caribbeans, transformers etc..) than what we have today.

I think the premise is “relative to their art form, movie creatives shit on gaming creatives”

 

[RaduN]

None of those are CGI. SE did an amazing job but like most other great next gen showcases, the work is underappreciated.

Haven't played the game yet myself (anxious to do it in the near future), but are we 100% sure there aren't more pre-rendered cutscenes than what they have told us about?
Do special armours/haircuts/weapons/etc carry over to the cutscenes? That would be a sure fire way to see they are indeed rendered realtime.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Movies have the advantage of being uninteractive, built around the story and again not being ran at 30frames per second on a $500 pc. Nothing Nolan has made is ahead in gameplay.

Film guys have their talents, As do game developers, sometimes collaboration goes well, other times extremely talented people from the industry totally fail when they need to adjust.

Actually talk to people who worked in both and you'd usually hear a lot of respect from people in filmmaking towards game devs

Difference here looks like game released early in a console cycle vs. game released late in console cycle.

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Horizon is more impressive.

 

[Lethal01]

Do special armours/haircuts/weapons/etc carry over to the cutscenes? That would be a sure fire way to see they are indeed rendered realtime.

It wouldn't, there are scenes with realtime characters and prerendered movie backgrounds too.

 

[PeteBull]

Gameplay- when u can control ur character, thats where we care about how game looks/how smooth it runs.
In cutscenes, if they are prerendered, half prerendered or real time- only devs should care about it, not us, players/customers.

 

[GymWolf]

The comparison movie\vg is dumb as fuck.

 

[SlimySnake]

...and yet Puddlegate was real. Cubemaps mixed with SSR is superior to what they eventualy went with. Asshole Devs love to stoke fan wars.

The amount of gaslighting on era for puddlegate was insane. Everyone was acting outraged over 'fanboys' and 99% of the posts were about how gamers are retarded and THE WORST. That it was a manufactured controversy. Than two years later they added rt reflections and everyone started sucking them off completely forgetting that they didnt think it was an issue in the first place. Thank god for this forum where you could actually criticize devs and not get piled on for it.

Movies have the advantage of being uninteractive, built around the story and again not being ran at 30frames per second on a $500 pc.

And cutscenes in games have that same advantage. They are not interactive allowing devs to push the fidelity. We saw it last gen with ND cutscenes looking way better than their gameplay especially the character models. I think insomniac can get there with some more changes to their lighting engine and character modeling. They have the talent in the storyboarding and cutscene direction department, they just need a more next gen engine.

Nothing Nolan has made is ahead in gameplay.

And yet Nolan goes out of his way to use practical effects instead of relying on CG. The point we are trying to make is the effort and ambition in Hollywood is second to none. They have access to CG and the ignore it to give us a more authentic experience. They shoot on location doing insane stunts in Mission Impossible and Top Gun Maverik. they go out of their way to create new tech just to do mocap underwater literally creating robots that swim underwater.

Games apparently cost $200 million to make and you see literal copy pastas both in terms of graphics and game design. There is very little ambition in the industry at the moment. Especially now that they finally have hardware that can do so much more than what we are getting.

 

[ProtoByte]

but given how they are working on wolverine and have a third team working on some avengers like gaas game, I am not sure if they will push themselves.

Holy fuck, do I hope their MP game gets cancelled.

 

[SlimySnake]

Difference here looks like game released early in a console cycle vs. game released late in console cycle.

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Horizon is more impressive.

I was looking at the DF video on Horizon FW's PS4 and PS5 versions, and its shocking how similar they both look. There is hero lighting during gameplay, some peach fuzz, higher draw distance or rather better LODs in distint objects and more foliage drawn out in the distance etc. Other than that, in most cases unless you zoom in 200x, you couldnt see the difference. I watched it on my 65 inch screen too so its not like the gifs or small monitors hiding all the detail.

The reason I bring it up is because the differences in lighting, traffic density, ray tracing, foliage, and asset quality even buildings is readily apparent. Some things like better lighting, better asset quality and foliage are yes, in line with an early gen to late gen upgrade we saw in horizon. But traffic density, the amazing flyovers, faster traversal, and just insane levels of ray tracing is simply not possible last gen. I honestly think that Spiderman 2 is a bigger leap because its doing more than just fancier graphics effects horizon did. We all hate the slow flying speeds in Horizon. When Spiderman added flying, they didnt hold back the flying speed or introduce massive pop-in.

 

[ProtoByte]

Nolan just made a nuclear explosion movie with no CGI.

It was a pretentious biopic, it's not an achievement.

Napolean will have thousands of extras. Large scale battles.

So?

Avatar 2 was shot with motion capture fucking underwater.

This was genuinely impressive, but storytelling in Avatar is shit.

Ambition.

Ambition in scale, sure.

Who is doing anything of equal ambition in the video game space? Not a soul.

Games are generally way more ambitious and taxing than your average movie or TV show.

We get endless low ambition cross gen shit, multiplatform game development, "performance" modes, etc.

Who are the game changers now? Who is pushing limits and trying new game design?

Hopefully Neil Druckmann was able to pull some talent from the HBO TLOU Show for TLOU 3 -

I'm disappointed, Represent. Disappointed that you don't realisr that TLOU 2013 shits on the HBO series. If Druckmann pulls in anyone else from Hollywood like he did with Haley Gross, you will simply get more bad pacing, more "symbolism" writing, more generic shit and more wokery.

 

[GymWolf]

Insane level of rtx...jesus christ they are just reflections

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I was looking at the DF video on Horizon FW's PS4 and PS5 versions, and its shocking how similar they both look. There is hero lighting during gameplay, some peach fuzz, higher draw distance or rather better LODs in distint objects and more foliage drawn out in the distance etc. Other than that, in most cases unless you zoom in 200x, you couldnt see the difference. I watched it on my 65 inch screen too so its not like the gifs or small monitors hiding all the detail.

The reason I bring it up is because the differences in lighting, traffic density, ray tracing, foliage, and asset quality even buildings is readily apparent. Some things like better lighting, better asset quality and foliage are yes, in line with an early gen to late gen upgrade we saw in horizon. But traffic density, the amazing flyovers, faster traversal, and just insane levels of ray tracing is simply not possible last gen. I honestly think that Spiderman 2 is a bigger leap because its doing more than just fancier graphics effects horizon did. We all hate the slow flying speeds in Horizon. When Spiderman added flying, they didnt hold back the flying speed or introduce massive pop-in.

Flying speed and other limitations are because Forbidden West is PS4 cross gen game that’s still more graphically impressive than current gen only Spider-Man 2. Just think what they will be able to do for next Horizon or Death Stranding 2 with Decima tech.

 

[SlimySnake]

I'm disappointed, Represent. Disappointed that you don't realisr that TLOU 2013 shits on the HBO series. If Druckmann pulls in anyone else from Hollywood like he did with Haley Gross, you will simply get more bad pacing, more "symbolism" writing, more generic shit and more wokery.

This is the only thing i agree with in your post lmao. The show sucked and the episode Neil directed was by the best looking and directed of the bunch. It did not feel like an HBO series to me. probably because it was produced by Sony and not HBO.

House of Dragon makes it look like a Netflix show.

P.S All I will say about Nolan is that he asked for $100 million to make the biopic then realized that the town he was building from scratch was going over budget by millions. So he reworked the production schedule and crammed in 65 days of shooting into 35 days to reduce the shooting budget. He shot that 3 hour biopic in 35 days. It took Neil 3 years to finish mocap for TLOU2.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Insane level of rtx...jesus christ they are just reflections

Reflections are the least impressive part of RT, RTGI is where the magic happens.

 

[GymWolf]

Reflections are the least impressive part of RT, RTGI is where the magic happens.

Rtx shadows are even less impressive.

 

[Neilg]

I honestly cant believe the sincere comparisons between film and games as if they're in any way comparable. 2 hours of not being able to move the camera vs a 40 hour fully interactive game with complex interacting systems instead of just 'ok now here this should happen'.
The only thing that can come over from film is hiring a director to handle cutscenes and writers. there isnt a single other person in the world of film that would be able to contribute in any meaningful way to a videogame better than anyone experienced and half decent in videogames.

The difference in scope is what allows filmmakers to be ambitious. it's a 2 hour movie, you have to push the limits somehow. everyone wanks all over the matrix demo and it's because there isn't a game in it, it's a 15 minute short film that took 80 people 8 months to make. That's actually a shitload of manpower for what you end up with.
honestly some of you come across like you've never spend a second even objectively considering the things you post. like actually trying to make real comparisons instead of mashing the keyboard with your fist typing out 'duhhh nolan did something new where videogame nolan' while banging a spoon against your head with the other hand.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Rtx shadows are even less impressive.

Most of the time yes. But in some scenes where you see soft shadows from distant objects combined with sharp local shadows, it can really add to the presentation.

 

[SlimySnake]

Flying speed and other limitations are because Forbidden West is PS4 cross gen game that’s still more graphically impressive than current gen only Spider-Man 2. Just think what they will be able to do for next Horizon or Death Stranding 2 with Decima tech.

yep. thats precisely my point. those aspects make it feel more next gen and thus a bigger upgrade from Spiderman 1 to Spiderman 2 than HFW was compared to HZD.

Insane level of rtx...jesus christ they are just reflections

the entire bodies of water are getting reflections. every building has reflections within reflections. this is stuff we used to only getting on PC. in fact we were just discussing watch dogs reflections last month and on PC this is what Watch dogs was doing.

 

[GymWolf]

Most of the time yes. But in some scenes where you see soft shadows from distant objects combined with sharp local shadows, it can really add to the presentation.

I never checked in my life how accurate shadows or reflections are, i just don't give a fuck.

If i can see a smeared, unclear image of my characters on a reflective surface it's good enough for me, i don't need a luna park mirror house wherever i look.

People who stop playing to check how accurate that shit is, especially in a fast paced game like spidey is never gonna be not funny to me.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

yep. thats precisely my point. those aspects make it feel more next gen and thus a bigger upgrade from Spiderman 1 to Spiderman 2 than HFW was compared to HZD.

I don’t know man, at least from watching YouTube clips I still think Horizon shows a bigger leap. But these things can’t be properly judged until you play the game yourself and see it running natively on big ass TV. 2 more days!!!

 

[SlimySnake]

I honestly cant believe the sincere comparisons between film and games as if they're in any way comparable. 2 hours of not being able to move the camera vs a 40 hour fully interactive game with complex interacting systems instead of just 'ok now here this should happen'.
The only thing that can come over from film is hiring a director to handle cutscenes and writers. there isnt a single other person in the world of film that would be able to contribute in any meaningful way to a videogame better than anyone experienced and half decent in videogames.

But thats literally how the topic started. We were discussing cutscenes. Non interactive cutscenes. I posted Spiderman TASM2 gifs looking absolutely incredible. Someone said insomniac cant ever come close. I posted gifs of Spiderman cutscenes on PS4 where it clearly shows Insomniac can direct amazing looking cutscenes. Then pointed out that if they improve their asset quality, lighting and vfx they can come very close IN CUTSCENES.

The other side discussion about hollywood being more productive. Well, thats just facts. They have filmmaking down to a science. They have crews shooting movies all over the globe, vfx artists making cg, writers doing their own thing, editors and composers all working together to make movies in 2-3 years. No one asked video game devleopers to make 100 hour horizon games or 50 hour god of war games. Thats on them.

 

[SlimySnake]

I don’t know man, at least from watching YouTube clips I still think Horizon shows a bigger leap. But these things can’t be properly judged until you play the game yourself and see it running natively on big ass TV. 2 more days!!!

Yeah, thats why i keep adding qualifiers like gifs can be misleading and that i need to play on my tv before making the final call. i havent even seen the youtube reviews or DF/nx gamer coverage to not spoil everything for myself.

 

[GymWolf]

yep. thats precisely my point. those aspects make it feel more next gen and thus a bigger upgrade from Spiderman 1 to Spiderman 2 than HFW was compared to HZD.


the entire bodies of water are getting reflections. every building has reflections within reflections. this is stuff we used to only getting on PC. in fact we were just discussing watch dogs reflections last month and on PC this is what Watch dogs was doing.

Neat, now i just need to find enough fucks to give about super-precise reflections in a game where you never stand still for more than 2 sec.

But they look great in photomode, i get it.

 

[ProtoByte]

This is the only thing i agree with in your post lmao. The show sucked and the episode Neil directed was by the best looking and directed of the bunch. It did not feel like an HBO series to me. probably because it was produced by Sony and not HBO.

House of Dragon makes it look like a Netflix show.

P.S All I will say about Nolan is that he asked for $100 million to make the biopic then realized that the town he was building from scratch was going over budget by millions. So he reworked the production schedule and crammed in 65 days of shooting into 35 days to reduce the shooting budget. He shot that 3 hour biopic in 35 days. It took Neil 3 years to finish mocap for TLOU2.

Look, I'm not gonna pretend that the games industry is as efficient and effective as it could be, but you have to put these things in context. Firstly, that 65-35 reduction sounds a lot like some serious fucking crunch and pressure - crunch and pressure that the Hollywood media will sweep under the rugbwhen it's convenient where the games media will not. Where you can't really afford to be that brazen with it, when you're comparing skilled "tech workers" to mostly a bunch of people already in a union (someything the games industry cannot withstand en masse) really desperate to work in Hollywood with skills that are not as transferable.

I'll also just say it, Druckmann's job is harder than Nolan's. Druckmann has to make that a much higher number of disciplines are weaving together in conjunction for a 25-30 hour game. It's simply a larger logistical load than what Nolan has to deal with.

Oppenheimer is a biopic drama, and so it's a particularly easier time than some of his other work like Tenet (which wasn't great) or even something like Reeves' The Batman (which sucked. Sorry Slimy, it's the truth, and funnily enough, they actually copied TellTale of all fucking studios). Most movies of its ilk don't take more than 25-40 days of filming. The second you move to a major blockbuster ala Marvel or something, you're looking at 3-6 months of shooting, tending on the higher end of that spectrum.

You're also making a procedural argument as opposed to a creative one. And this is where I argue the modern film industry is the last place to look for creativity.

Think about it. All the hyped movies this year are biopics or based on true stories or children's toys, and for the past 20+ years the biggest ones have been adaptations of books, comics or (*shocked pikachu*) video games. If it's not that, it's a remake of something that came before, or Oscar-bait that very few people actually watch or care about.

Hollywood is so safe, predictable and one-note, " a Hollywood ending" is standard vernacular.

Nolan's last creatively interesting movie sans Batman (and both the Dark Knight and Rises sucked as Batman movies) was Inception. He tried recapturing that vibe with Tenet, but didn't quite manage it.

 

[Neilg]

But thats literally how the topic started. We were discussing cutscenes. Non interactive cutscenes. I posted Spiderman TASM2 gifs looking absolutely incredible. Someone said insomniac cant ever come close. I posted gifs of Spiderman cutscenes on PS4 where it clearly shows Insomniac can direct amazing looking cutscenes. Then pointed out that if they improve their asset quality, lighting and vfx they can come very close IN CUTSCENES.

Ok, so they'll be pre-rendered, in order to use matte paintings and all the composition tricks that films can use. I thought you didn't want that?
Or is this some magic world where you can do real time nuke level compositing over the top of a real time render using assets and geometric detail that usually takes 10 hours a frame to render?
That's why films are quicker to make. They don't have to run in real time. And they still take 3 years!

 

[alloush]

I posted Spiderman TASM2 gifs looking absolutely incredible.

I apologize for starting this whole debate by saying I thought your TASM2 gifs were actually Spidey 2 from Insomniac and that should serve as a compliment to Insomniac and hell broke loose between the two sides.

Yooo I aint a gold member no more, my boi ChiefDada where you at? Spidey 2 is the most amazing game ever made my brother nothing comes close it is miles better than TASM2.

 

[SlimySnake]

I apologize for starting this whole debate by saying I thought your TASM2 gifs were actually Spidey 2 from Insomniac and that should serve as a compliment to Insomniac and hell broke loose between the two sides.

Yooo I aint a gold member no more, my boi ChiefDada where you at? Spidey 2 is the most amazing game ever made my brother nothing comes close it is miles better than TASM2.

Nah, I am loving all the TASM2 love in this thread. People trash that movie everywhere else, but here its great to see im with my people who appreciate pretty cg graphics over poor storytelling lol

 

[arkhamguy123]

Nolan's last creatively interesting movie sans Batman (and both the Dark Knight and Rises sucked as Batman movies) was Inception. He tried recapturing that vibe with Tenet, but didn't quite manage it.

“I’m edgy because I don’t like popular things”

 

[arkhamguy123]

Absolutely mind blowing all the incensed ranting that video games were dared to be compared to movies

As if games having been trying to ape film since the PS2/OG Xbox days. And to be fair a lot of them have found success and been quite compelling as far as a good story told with great action and adventure. A lot of others fall flat on their stupid face of course though.

At any rate it’s really not this deep sophisticated issue that needs a nerd battalion to come to the defense of a multi billion dollar industry. It’s as simple as “hey. Some of these creatives and artist over here in this art form do cool and badass interesting stuff… creatives in this other art form dont seem to do the same as often.” Literally that’s it. Nobody cares about your detailed thesis and dissection of the minutiae and nuance of production pipelines and 1:1 analogies and analysis

 

[SlimySnake]

Look, I'm not gonna pretend that the games industry is as efficient and effective as it could be, but you have to put these things in context. Firstly, that 65-35 reduction sounds a lot like some serious fucking crunch and pressure - crunch and pressure that the Hollywood media will sweep under the rugbwhen it's convenient where the games media will not. Where you can't really afford to be that brazen with it, when you're comparing skilled "tech workers" to mostly a bunch of people already in a union (someything the games industry cannot withstand en masse) really desperate to work in Hollywood with skills that are not as transferable.

I'll also just say it, Druckmann's job is harder than Nolan's. Druckmann has to make that a much higher number of disciplines are weaving together in conjunction for a 25-30 hour game. It's simply a larger logistical load than what Nolan has to deal with.

Oppenheimer is a biopic drama, and so it's a particularly easier time than some of his other work like Tenet (which wasn't great) or even something like Reeves' The Batman (which sucked. Sorry Slimy, it's the truth, and funnily enough, they actually copied TellTale of all fucking studios). Most movies of its ilk don't take more than 25-40 days of filming. The second you move to a major blockbuster ala Marvel or something, you're looking at 3-6 months of shooting, tending on the higher end of that spectrum.

You're also making a procedural argument as opposed to a creative one. And this is where I argue the modern film industry is the last place to look for creativity.

Think about it. All the hyped movies this year are biopics or based on true stories or children's toys, and for the past 20+ years the biggest ones have been adaptations of books, comics or (*shocked pikachu*) video games. If it's not that, it's a remake of something that came before, or Oscar-bait that very few people actually watch or care about.

Hollywood is so safe, predictable and one-note, " a Hollywood ending" is standard vernacular.

Nolan's last creatively interesting movie sans Batman (and both the Dark Knight and Rises sucked as Batman movies) was Inception. He tried recapturing that vibe with Tenet, but didn't quite manage it.

I think I pointed out Scoresese, Ridley Scott, Denise Villenvue, Michael Mann, and Nolan all releasing their own movies this year alone. Hardly generic or formulaic trash. Dune ended up getting delayed because of the strike, but villenvue got it done in 2 years. Yes, movies are made differently but they require far more bodies to work in tandem and face significantly more challenges than games do. I think Insomniac getting this game done in 2.5 years is probably the way to go. yes, its not as ambitious but i am now rethinking my entire philosophy. maybe insomniac is right and they should make a new game every 2.5 years with minor imrpovements than whatever cd project, nd, ssm and gg are doing.

All i am saying is that the movie industry is a well oiled machine and game development can learn from that. Be it unionizing or just reducing scope or storyboarding or just a way more thorough pre-production step where everything is setup and ready to go before they start shooting. game development is different of course, but i find it very odd that devs like Naughty Dog had NOTHING to do after shipping TLOU2 and started fucking with VSG's remake and Sony bend's uncharted spinoff. like how do you fucking not have the next game lined up and ready to go into full production for the biggest studio? Uncharted 2 was greenlit the month Uncharted 1 came out, and within weeks full production had begun. Why didnt this happen with TLOU3? Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda teams wasted 3-5 years on preproduction. Cory barlog has been in pre-production on his new IP for five years and they are now making GOW DLC because he still isnt ready to go into full production.

 

[ProtoByte]

I think I pointed out Scoresese, Ridley Scott, Denise Villenvue, Michael Mann, and Nolan all releasing their own movies this year alone. Hardly generic or formulaic trash. Dune ended up getting delayed because of the strike, but villenvue got it done in 2 years. Yes, movies are made differently but they require far more bodies to work in tandem and face significantly more challenges than games do.

We're just going to have to disagree here. There's no way that a game, even a pretty linear one by today's standards, is less complicated to manage than a movie.

I think Insomniac getting this game done in 2.5 years is probably the way to go. yes, its not as ambitious but i am now rethinking my entire philosophy. maybe insomniac is right and they should make a new game every 2.5 years with minor imrpovements than whatever cd project, nd, ssm and gg are doing.

All i am saying is that the movie industry is a well oiled machine and game development can learn from that.

No, Insomniac's 2.5 years model isn't for every studio or every game. Spider-Man 3 is probably a PS6 game, and if they simply do another iterative "more Spider-Man" title, it's going to get hammered down to a mid 80s score at best. You can read the "this is cool, but this is the farthest they can go with it" through the lines of the reviews for SM2.

Be it unionizing or just reducing scope or storyboarding or just a way more thorough pre-production step where everything is setup and ready to go before they start shooting.

Unionizing will just make devs lazier, slower, and more expensive. I mean, that's literally what they're there to do. You want to kill core gaming, go ahead with that.

game development is different of course, but i find it very odd that devs like Naughty Dog had NOTHING to do after shipping TLOU2 and started fucking with VSG's remake and Sony bend's uncharted spinoff. like how do you fucking not have the next game lined up and ready to go into full production for the biggest studio? Uncharted 2 was greenlit the month Uncharted 1 came out, and within weeks full production had begun. Why didnt this happen with TLOU3? Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda teams wasted 3-5 years on preproduction. Cory barlog has been in pre-production on his new IP for five years and they are now making GOW DLC because he still isnt ready to go into full production.

I suppose the point is that I prefer the game industry take a lot of time with the best projects as opposed to the "well-oiled machine" that pumps out the same old shit that makes COD installments seem refreshing - itself a franchise with a well-oiled machine behind it. Seeing the theme here?

As for that rumor about GoW DLC/mid game (about which I remember Eric Williams being pretty clear on it not being a thing) ala Lost Legacy or Miles Morales, I have literally zero interest, and while the games press is pushing for it to be this gens pet distribution gimmick (see: episodic titles in the transitional period of 7th and 8th gen), I think that idea is already wearing thin with AC Mirage.

Barlog having his IP incubate is a good thing. Coming up with ideas and developing them into good stories and worlds that are fresh to today's market, where so much has been done and done well, is so difficult. It doesn't happen overnight. The consumer has higher expectations, and Sony's not going to pour in 200 million dollars into a one-done new IP.

 

[nemiroff]

Well, now with your specular energy in balance hopefully you ready to understand that RT/PT is an expanded "toolset"/paintbrush that can do everything other simulated light algorithm approaches can and more, including diffused radiance in rough materials in addition to specular still water reflections. Cyberpunk already covers both with and without RT/PT. RT/PT is more potent to represent realism and also opens up for an expanded toolset for a better stylized approach if desired.

Important to note; The RT/PT implementation in Cyberpunk is a dynamic experiment, more or less an overlay, basically a light transport modification. It's made by just a few people inside CDPR itself in collaboration with Nvidia. It is not built from the ground up for RT/PT, thus it’s relatively easy to find leftovers from the original full raster engine, and this can definitely affect the RT implementation. To get consistent RT/PT lighting, a game must be directed and built from the ground up for it (but it’s too early for devs to do that for obvious reasons).

We’ve seen some posters trying to exploit the flaws of RT placed on top of rasterization to shape the narrative of how “wasteful” RT is. But if we’re to take the topic of the thread seriously as curious engineers, we shouldn’t accept that kind of crap (leaving out context). Using correlation and causation in a responsible manner should be the fundament for any discussion in threads like this.

Edit: The post I was supposed to quote vanished..

Edit2: Wait, why is this thread used for movie analysis, so odd.. lol

 

[ChiefDada]

Are the shadows responsible for FF16 looking so impressive here?

Yes. It is penumbra/soft shadows.

Take your first pick as an example:

SE also discussed this in their whitepaper; they utilized percentage closer soft shadows as NXGamer predicted and significantly retooled their shadow rendering techniques to drastically improve ability to ground objects/avoid light leak and other traditional shadowmap limitations.

 

[Represent.]

It was a pretentious biopic, it's not an achievement.

:|

So?

What do you mean so? They’re making a war movie. So they needed to nail the scale of a large war. They could have done the lazy thing and went all cgi. Instead? They literally hired THOUSANDS of extras to make it look REAL. That is ambition. There is t a single game dev on earth that would do things the hard way just to make it more epic? Which is the whole point we’re getting at… they lack ambition.

some games like COD have 2000+ people working on them and 250 million dollar budgets and we can’t even get destructive environments in a war game. Even though they are reusing the same base game design every goddamn year

This was genuinely impressive, but storytelling in Avatar is shit.

Still better than 95% of games. Or at least on par.

Ambition in scale, sure.

And creativity. I can’t name a single thing game devs are ambitious with. Game design? Lol. Graphics? Lol. Writing? Lol.

There is nothing. There’s zero ambition in the industry

Games are generally way more ambitious and taxing than your average movie or TV show.

Not at all. War games have no destruction. There’s no such thing as large scale combat (maybe space marine 2), writing is generally generic and awful, game design is stagnant, mission structure, stagnant. Open world formula hasn’t changed since GTA3

I'm disappointed, Represent. Disappointed that you don't realisr that TLOU 2013 shits on the HBO series. If Druckmann pulls in anyone else from Hollywood like he did with Haley Gross, you will simply get more bad pacing, more "symbolism" writing, more generic shit and more wokery.

I will not stand for TLOU 2 slander. An actually ambitious game that took risks and had a devs go out of their comfort zones. Intense and visually stunning gory combat, best graphics of the gen, etc

 

[Musilla]

 

[arkhamguy123]

How it feels being a fan of tech innovation and visual fidelity in the PS5 Gen