What is black state?
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
What is black state?
Balducci30
Member
Exactly, I feel like lethal01 thinks we expect games to be 1:1 with the most cutting-edge CGI of today. I don’t think anyone actually expects that, they want it to reach the “pre-rendered” look of outdated CGI. Which we can do, and we have come close to. At this point I’m happy with what we’ve gotten but I feel this generation is probably a transition at this point, the consoles came in at the early stages of raytracing, and they’re so far behind in that area from what the latest PC Cards can do, in 3 years it will be even further.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I always go back to Tim Sweeney's comments on needing 40 tflops to achieve photorealism. we should get there next gen.
As for lethal, hes a big FF7 Rebirth fanboy and yet doesn't want to admit its cutscenes look legit CG at times. i dont get it. i fucking hate that game but im willing to give it credit where its due.
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Lethal01
Member
I am not putting everyone in the same box. But I will make fun of the people who are telling me that the Spiderman/Horizon games surpassed its modern CGI trailer. So you can take your complaints to chief and VetVip
Because despite loving the game and its visuals I can see its clear technical shortcomings comapared to other games much less the CGI we talk about in this thread. But I suppose that's the curse of actually having functioning eyes and not being crazy enough to post this and then expect to be taken seriously.
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GooseMan69
Member
Playing Black Myth in PS5 (quality mode). It is actually astounding. Everyone thought this was vaporware when it was revealed. It’s actually real! Firmly in the running for graphics king imo. Hellblade 2 is probably still number one but Black Myth gets bonus points for being an actual game.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
My internet has been out the last couple of days so havent been able to download this game. it's killing me. i saw some snippets of the opening and it looks fucking insane. next gen in ways spiderman 2 setpieces were but with actual next gen graphics fidelity.
i might also end up choosing this over hellblade 2 because of this. basically what happened in 2015 when the order went up against real games like Batman AK, Witcher 3 and Rise of Tomb Raider.
Good man. i will likely play this in 30 fps as well on pc.
Balducci30
Member
I’m just happy a there’s a game out there trying to push forward the physical interactions with smoke and water etc. which from the opening scene I’ve watched - it seems like they’re doing that.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
holy crap at those lemons. they look like individually modeled lemons sitting on top of each other.MAFIA: THE OLD COUNTRY DIRECT SCREENSHOTS
nice lighting, despite little AO in that last shot
meanwhile ff7 rebirth.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Ok the second area of wukong is pretty rough compared to the first one that was comparable\superior to avatar, it's a rocky\mountain location and the texture work is extremely hit and miss with a lot of bad textures everywhere, this is where the difference with hb2 get BIG.
And it's not a matter of zooming in, many textures are just clearly stretched even from playable distance.
And it's not a matter of zooming in, many textures are just clearly stretched even from playable distance.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Sicily is famous for its lemons and oranges, of course they put all the resources on themholy crap at those lemons. they look like individually modeled lemons sitting on top of each other.
meanwhile ff7 rebirth.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
holy crap at those lemons. they look like individually modeled lemons sitting on top of each other.
meanwhile ff7 rebirth.
thatJohann
Member
did they confirm this is real time and not a cinematic trailer?MAFIA: THE OLD COUNTRY DIRECT SCREENSHOTS
nice lighting, despite little AO in that last shot
H . R . 2
Member
the trailer was in-engine, and if my memory serves me correctly this shot was not in the teaser, meaning that it is probably an in-game screenshot
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
We don’t need EVERY game to fit into a mold. Hellblade 2 is a masterpiece and fine as it is, some games are EXPERIENCES with a time and place for everything. Example, Death Stranding. Normies, trolls and toxic people called it a walking simulator, but we know it is a masterpiece and an EXPERIENCE.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
What makes something “an actual game”?
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Someone gets it.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Final Fantasy 7 Remake is already comparible to Advent Children (Digital Foundry did a report on it) and Hellblade 2 surpasses both in most areas except maybe character poly count (compared to Advent Children) and that will be fixed with nanite characters. FF16 had lighting and materials similar to prerendered CG. I first got that “CGI feel” from a PS4 game, The Order 1886, I remember thinking it was cutscene until I moved the character and my mouth drop. The Order still has some unmatched environment visuals, they literally look CGI and how I thought this current gen should have looked immediately out of the gate. A few select spots in TLOU 2 gave me the CGI feel same with Detroit Become Human and a few other PS4 titles. The next real CGI moment came from The Matrix Awakens demo, it dropped my jaw and it felt like I was actually playing CGI. When playing Ratchet: Rift Apart I was amazed by the density and visuals during gameplay and the cutscenes looked like Animated CGI from Pixar. My next CGI feel moment came from Hellblade 2, its like literally playing CGI cutscenes non stop. Apart from the non nanite characters models and bad effects like certain fire effects, Hellblade 2 looks BETTER than some recent CGI, The sheer density, thickness, lighting and volumetrics are straight up CGI quality. The character models in Hellblade 2 especially in cutscenes, literally look life like and gives a peek into next gens visuals (PS6, Series Y era). The environments have this density and feeling that I also get from the Marvel 1943 trailer…
Edit: So far Marvel 1943, The Matrix Awakens demo and Hellblade 2 brought back that “CGI next gen feel” from The Order 1886, that I expected with current gen games…
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GooseMan69
Member
New digital foundry video on Black Myth is kind of a joke. They spent the entire 30 minute video harping on image quality and performance. Granted, some of the issues are legitimate. It’s not fucking Cyberpunk in 2020 though. It runs fine. Does it run as smoothly and have as clean an image as something like GOW Ragnarok? Nah. Cause it’s not a PS4 game. It has way more next gen features than almost anything to date. It’s just dumb. Someone finally makes a game that actually pushes the hardware, and these dudes wanna sit there and count pixels and frames.
I swear, the extended period of cross gen titles and next gen updates to old games warped everyone’s expectations of what consoles are. I don’t want to play glorified PS4 games all gen cause muh 60 fps. If you want the most optimal performance and image quality, you have to break out your wallet and get a high end PC. It’s always been like that. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
I swear, the extended period of cross gen titles and next gen updates to old games warped everyone’s expectations of what consoles are. I don’t want to play glorified PS4 games all gen cause muh 60 fps. If you want the most optimal performance and image quality, you have to break out your wallet and get a high end PC. It’s always been like that. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Wow. I am blown away by the opening of Wukong. Just mind blowing stuff. This is what Epic had promised with the original PS5 demo. Just the sheer scale mixed in with the level of detail you simply wouldnt get last gen. It's astounding. This is what i wanted from GOW Ragnorak. This is what SSM shouldve done to earn the name 'Ragnorak'. r
Love the physics based smoke effects. It's Batman AK's nvidia smoke physics turned up to 11. It was actually kind of distracting lol.
The actual jungle level thats in the benchmark has kind of lost its sheen. Im playing with RT off and everything maxed out at 4k dlss performance and while it looks really good, it isnt blowing me away like the opening did. It's like a more photorealistic version of HFW with a lot more granular detail and some of the most insane draw distance ive ever seen.
I dont see how Sucker Punch, Bend, ND or GG cant accomplish this with their next game. The realistic lighting alone wouldve made TLOU1 remake look a gen ahead.
They are complete morons. Always have been. It's mind boggling that we finally get a next gen game on PS5 and they complain about image quality. especially when the game is mostly around 1440p dropping down to 1296p at times. thats way higher than the 720p games they have been testing since last year when we finally started getting next gen games.
They spent 50 minutes jerking off to TLOU1. 50. John was literally zooming in to ceiling fans to try and catch dynamic shadows. this is a game that takes a shit on TLOU1 and yet all they can talk about is image quality and performance while pausing mid action, zooming in 1000% or this is a new one, running the game at 1/3rd the speed to show artifacting. i mean come on.
Whats funny is that they call having an unlocked 30 fps mode indefensible. Last gen KZSF and Infamous second son both launched with uncapped 30 fps modes. they were lauded for their graphics anyway. the uncapped nature of the fps was just a footnote. now its become indefensible!!!!
honestly though, this is why devs should just focus on one mode like ninja theory did with hellblade 2, bethesda with starfield initially, and the upcoming kingdom come. these consoles simply cannot run these games at 60 fps all the while pushing next gen visuals. just focus on making 30 fps feel smooth without sacrificing image quality. no need to have 3 modes that all lack in polish. this will do two things, keep DF from focusing on the worst fucking mode and two, it will showcase the game at its highest fidelity at all times.
Love the physics based smoke effects. It's Batman AK's nvidia smoke physics turned up to 11. It was actually kind of distracting lol.
The actual jungle level thats in the benchmark has kind of lost its sheen. Im playing with RT off and everything maxed out at 4k dlss performance and while it looks really good, it isnt blowing me away like the opening did. It's like a more photorealistic version of HFW with a lot more granular detail and some of the most insane draw distance ive ever seen.
I dont see how Sucker Punch, Bend, ND or GG cant accomplish this with their next game. The realistic lighting alone wouldve made TLOU1 remake look a gen ahead.
They are complete morons. Always have been. It's mind boggling that we finally get a next gen game on PS5 and they complain about image quality. especially when the game is mostly around 1440p dropping down to 1296p at times. thats way higher than the 720p games they have been testing since last year when we finally started getting next gen games.
They spent 50 minutes jerking off to TLOU1. 50. John was literally zooming in to ceiling fans to try and catch dynamic shadows. this is a game that takes a shit on TLOU1 and yet all they can talk about is image quality and performance while pausing mid action, zooming in 1000% or this is a new one, running the game at 1/3rd the speed to show artifacting. i mean come on.
Whats funny is that they call having an unlocked 30 fps mode indefensible. Last gen KZSF and Infamous second son both launched with uncapped 30 fps modes. they were lauded for their graphics anyway. the uncapped nature of the fps was just a footnote. now its become indefensible!!!!
honestly though, this is why devs should just focus on one mode like ninja theory did with hellblade 2, bethesda with starfield initially, and the upcoming kingdom come. these consoles simply cannot run these games at 60 fps all the while pushing next gen visuals. just focus on making 30 fps feel smooth without sacrificing image quality. no need to have 3 modes that all lack in polish. this will do two things, keep DF from focusing on the worst fucking mode and two, it will showcase the game at its highest fidelity at all times.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
But Death Stranding was more than just an experience. It IS a walking simulator and it made walking a fun simulation. The game was engaging despite the fact that you were walking. Kojima added dozens of mechanics around walking alone. And he had the common sense to realize that walking alone wont be fun for a 30 hour game so he added an entire building aspect to the game and gave you literally dozens of tools to navigate the environment.
In hellblade 2, you literally just press up for an hour before doing an on-rails combat sequence where you literally cannot move in any direction. That lasts for five minutes and then you do another one hour long walking sequence. It's not a game. This is not what gaming should be. I dont mind games with no combat as long as you are doing things that are engaging while walking. Be it exploration or solving a puzzle. Walking for an hour doing nothing is not engaging.
When you say experience, you are probably talking about just sitting there and taking in some storytelling. Well, the story sucked. Nothing happens in that 1 hour you walk. You just hear things in your head constantly. like 1 every second. 60 times a minute, 3,600 times an hour. it is mental torture. nothing about that one hour of walking was fun.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Hellblade 2 would've been great had the developers JUST improved the frickin combat! They did nothing to improve it and even removed one of the few moved you could do - the kick (nothing special but why?). This lack of improving combat was the biggest "wtf were they thinking" ive seen from a developer this gen. Perhaps even more than Starfield not allowing us to explore planets in a way that all the other Bethesda games are known for.
Like, how did the devs not see this as a priority and why would they think giving is LESS combat options in a system already pretty bereft of mechanics was the right thing to do in their sequel?!
Speaking of wtf ...what's up with Black Myth not having HDR? Sigh....
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
this goes back to what Edder and I were talking about a couple of days ago. It seems the talent has left this industry. Starfield shouldve been skyrim in space and it ended up being a vapid nothing burger of a game with no exploration or build variety whatsoever. Ninja theory used to be one of my favorite developers because i really enjoyed their combat mechanics in games like heavenly sword and DmC. it wasnt too hard like Ninja Gaiden or too obtuse like Capcom's DMC. they used to make fun combat games. even Enslaved didnt have combat this bad and had a lot of really fun setpieces littered through out the game. this game has 2 setpieces. 2.
Avatar is so fucking boring I just dont understand how ubisoft could release it a decade after mastering the open world design in AC2, Brotherhood, Far Cry 3 and Black Flag. Massive was a support studio for Far Cry 3 and AC Revelations. You learned nothing from those games? How can we regress? I really hope Star Wars Outlaws is more fun than avatar.
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PC or console?
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Thats all opinion based…
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Played some more. The jungle levels keep getting more and more beautiful. I just love the decision to go for a photorealistic jungle. I fucking love the trees. they remind me of those trees we saw in Avatar's first trailer. Just super realistic when they are shadowed properly like that. It's so consistently beautiful that I legit thought i was playing a sony first party game from ND or GG. Every single area feels like designers poured hundreds of hours curating to perfection. Honestly didnt think I would be playing a game like this in 2024. It's linear but open enough like uncharted, tlou and mgs3. If it was open world like avatar, i doubt the jungle looks this good or rather consistently looks this good.
I see a lot of PC gamers removing Chromatic Abberation, turning off sharpness, and other visual settings, but turning off those settings completely removes the thick moody atmosphere and you are left with a rather plain looking jungle. Decided to play at 30 fps all maxed out DLSS 4k quality and its been very smooth. Cant get RT to work without stuttering but this looks just as good with max shadows. Shadows are so goddamn important, i had no idea until this gen. i wonder if the max settings utilizes the UE5 virtual shadow maps.
I see a lot of PC gamers removing Chromatic Abberation, turning off sharpness, and other visual settings, but turning off those settings completely removes the thick moody atmosphere and you are left with a rather plain looking jungle. Decided to play at 30 fps all maxed out DLSS 4k quality and its been very smooth. Cant get RT to work without stuttering but this looks just as good with max shadows. Shadows are so goddamn important, i had no idea until this gen. i wonder if the max settings utilizes the UE5 virtual shadow maps.
Lethal01
Member
Seems not
GymWolf
Gold Member
pc with texture on max at 4k dlss quality.
Another dude quoted me in the df topic and confirmed that rocks are really bad (he was even harder than me on the game, i think they are just super hit and miss).
I could take and show hundreds of screens but people are gonna understand what i mean when they are gonna reach the second zone and explore a little.
Nanite can have infinite triangles\polygons render budget for the geometry but if the textures are not accordingly detailed the whole facade crumble, like oh wow i don't have pop in but the texture still look like shit even in their best version
The game is still a looker overall, but the first zone is way, WAY better than the second one.
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Senua
Gold Member
The default sharpening is god awful, it hurts my eyes. and 30fps is "very smooth"? You lost it Slimy, especially in a game like Wukong.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I guess I am lucky in that I dont even know what sharpness does. Ive always struggled with the sharpness slider on DLSS and FSR settings. No idea what its for.
All i know is that as soon as I installed that no sharpness, no chromatic abberation ini file, my game went from looking like a ps5 game to a ps4.5 cross gen game. it lost its next gen sheen.
As for 30 fps, i lost it a long time ago. Ive been playing games at 30 fps all gen. Miles, Ratchet, Horizon FW, Spiderman 2, Zelda ToTK, Alan Wake 2 (on PC). It's really not that bad as long as you have consistent frametimes which are impossible to get on PC unless you use the Rivatuner Statastics Server app to cap the frames to 30 fps. I dont know why ingame framecaps produce framerate judders. i dont know why nvidia control panel famecaps do the same. PC gaming is absolutely stupid like that. But ever since i started using RTSS, i get a consistent frametime graph and i have zero issues with camera panning which felt so fucking awful in Demon Souls' 30 fps mode. I think most people make the mistake of switching between 30 and 60 fps a lot. They also dont use RTSS to cap framerates and see insane fluctuations in frametimes which leads them to think 30 fps is this unplayable framerate when we've been playing games at 30 fps for close to 4 decades.
Toots
Gold Member
You are severely underestimating the power of government sanctioned mandatory crunch.
Luipadre
Member
Is this real
UE5 asset store the game
Senua
Gold Member
Sharpness just creates horrible artifacts and shimmering. If the game is at a decent enough res it's sharp enough and the sharpening only highlights issues. Don't get me wrong with temporal aliasing/reconstruction a little sharpening is great to have, but Wukongs solution is way to strong by default. To my tastes anyway.
Yea for a game like Hellblade 2 limiting to 30 with RTSS way a great way to play and the extra effects and IQ over running it at 60 was definitely great. I think 30fps is a good solution for certain games but for a fast paced action game like Wukong I'll do whatever I can for a stable enough 60 (with VRR). Without VRR I'd rather have a stable 30 than a wonky 60. I have 3080 like you so getting the best out of these new heavy games is a great challenge and fun in itself, I just struggle with 30 on games like this, especially on my OLED. You do you though ofc.
Could be. We will see. People said the same thing about early Black Myth when it was first shown.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Someone hasn't been paying attention to the leap from manual to AI powered denoisers which is/will bridge the gap between compute needed to sample limited rays in real time vs the thousands of samples available for an offline render. The fidelity gap it covers is within the appreciable qualitative perceptual difference for the vast majority of gamers and general public. And of course PS5 Pro will be doing this. The fact you're even speaking on PS6 supposed limitations without even knowing what the HW specs will be is comical.
Let's come back to this in a few weeks...
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I played the first hour or so at a locked 60 fps. DLSS 4k performance. No RT. Mix of cinematic and high settings from Hardware Unboxed. It looked great and played great, but switching to DLSS 4k Quality and all cinematic settings makes it feel very close to path traced settings.
I actually tried playing at 1800p dlss performance (900p) with path tracing set to medium but even though i was at 30 fps locked, the frametime spikes were constant. hitching and stuttering every second. the benchmark is fine (35 average no major 1% drops) so it must be something happening in gameplay that the cpu is struggling with. nvidia released a blog today explaining the RT effects saying they worked with the team to implement these effects to take full advantage of the 40 series cards and its clear they fucked over 30 series owners. its literally unplayable despite the fact that the gpu utilization is at around 80%, CPU around 20% and despite vram only taking just 6GB.
geary
Member
Lethal01
Member
Well in that case expect a broken mess to release
I mean we don't even know how many years black myth wukong was into development before they first showed it. So I would start holding em up as a beacon of timely development. This game could already be over 7 years of total development.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah, people do this with pretty much every UE5 game that looks better than what these western AAA studios are making. Asset flipping is done in every game. Quixel Megascans are used in virtually every single AAA game. You can check out their website and see dozens of AAA games from both japanese and western studios.
What these devs are doing is taking those assets and actually creating a next gen game with it thanks to tech like nanite and lumen and the results are so far beyond what others have done that they seem fake.
well, Crimson Desert is clearly not fake and its from Pearl Abyss. Black Myth might be using some wooden planks from quixel but the entire jungle level is handcrafted, and feels unique. Same thing with this game. I have never seen a lab look like that. I wish there was more destruction in the lab but i have not seen those lab assets in any game before. Who gives a shit if a shit if they were pulled in from quixel or if the devs handcrafted them. it looks more next gen than anything we have seen so far. legit photorealistic. We should be going OMG this is what i wanted from next gen, but because its made by a no-name dev, we are ignoring a near 8 minute long demo that is following another 5 minute long demo.
Lethal01
Member
It's just lovely having Dada jump in right after people try to tell me that I'm exaggerating what people expect. The guy who assured me that Spiderman 2 would surpass it's CGI trailer and then used it as an example that we reached CGI territory
I've been using AI powered denoiser for years and know the absolute best ones available and advertised, None of them let even a 4090 come close to doing in realtime what you can do by instead rending for a minute per frame with some render farm.
BUt I suppose if you are loose enough then anything can "look like" CGI.
it's got that "CGI FEEL" with the "CGI SMELL"
Lethal01
Member
We ignore things like Keo Berlin because they look like shit. it's that simple
Schmendrick
Member
You went from " we can absolutely reach that level" to "we might be able to fake it good enough so that someone's gramgram without her glasses might get fooled .... On budget AMD hardware.... In a few weeks "...within a single reply......
No comment except:
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
You went from " we can absolutely reach that level" to "we might be able to fake it good enough so that someone's gramgram without her glasses might get fooled .... On budget AMD hardware.... In a few weeks "...within a single reply......
No comment except:
Not what I said at all but whatever gets you through the day...
Schmendrick
Member
I paraphrased exactly what you said it's just that stupid.
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
Alrighty.
It's not that 30fps is unplayable, it just looks shit. People say you get used to it, which obviously you do. But then you also get used to lower graphics settings/resolution etc. So I don't know why that's supposed to be a killer argument. I don't understand why anyone would want to stay at 30fps. It's objectively shit (ie not closely aligned with our brain's own updating). It's been long enough, surely (nearly 4 decades!!). Stop kicking the can down the road ffs. Take this one hit for a generation, then we can continue for all subsequent generations at 60fps with each one offering a big leap and with no fundamental compromise between graphics in stills and graphics in motion.
What exactly about that 8 minute video "looked like shit"?
Like i think the character model still too last gen looking but the enviroments didnt look like shit unless of course you just hate that art style?
I mean the worst critique I could quickly throw at that level was it was too barren and didnt have that hand crafted history pass done on it yet but i exspected as much since its just an early showing.