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[iceagecoming]

Good for Greece and all but how will teens react to it?

they should riot because the younger generation owe nothing.

 

[Savitar]

Very curious to find out if this will really change anything for the better.

 

[norinrad]

Does the plan still entail absolutely fucktarded moves like selling off the transmission networks for electricity and gas? You know, the meat-and-potatoes on every government's revenue sheet?

Because if so, I really hope for a parliamentary riot.

You can privatize all those and still hold a substantive share giving you the right to Veto certain aspects. Most northern governments have shares in key enterprises in their countries.

 

[Melon Husk]

Merkel: I think that trust can be regained #greece

Spoiler

#reek

 

[Machspeed007]

#Merkel: As in 2012 - EZ is prepared to talking about longer grace period for Greek debt. But Nominal haircut out of the question

 

[Caipirinha]

Let's see how a country takes to having a far left PM elected to fight austerity, selling off their country to private hands in exchange for Euro membership.

Don't worry guys, I'm sure that the Greeks will quietly accept servitude and poverty.

And I'm sure that when this happens in Ireland and Portugal etc. they do too.

I'm sure this isn't the beginning of the end of the EU and that it doesn't look exactly like the kind of thing that in the 20th Century led to violence and war.

I'm sure of it.

Please understand.

 

[Peyotl]

What about debt relief?

Chancellor Merkel says that the eurogroup is ready to consider extending the maturity on Greek loans, but a “nominal haircut” is out of the question.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...sis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live

I don't see how this can work, honestly.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Perhaps the idea is to see if the current government can be trusted, once they show goodwill of willing to work with the creditors, investment will flown in to help Greece back on its feet and actually modernize their economy so they wouldn't have to be in the same situation again? That's what i get from listening to the live conference. I could be wrong though.

As a foreign investor, why do you invest in a country that can't afford teachers to educate a proper workforce or doctors to keep them healthy, lacks proper R&D subsidies, and where everyone is too poor to buy your products? Particularly one that still is very likely to default, just in three years time rather than now?

 

[SmoothBrain]

35bn for the economy plus 12.5bn from the fond. But the price they paid...

 

[Nikodemos]

You can privatize all those and still hold a substantive share giving you the right to Veto certain aspects. Most northern governments have shares in key enterprises in their countries.

Sure, as long as the terms allow you to hold at least 51% of shares. My fear is that this 'offer' allows none of the sort.

 

[The Purple Pill]

Isn't this simply sending the death ball into the future, by only a few years? Not to mention, when it lands again, it'll be more gruesome and deadly than this crisis.

 

[cyberheater]

Shouldn't the Greek people vote to accept this offer?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Shouldn't the Greek people vote to accept this offer?

They don't have time. This offer would need to be taken up by Wednesday afternoon.

 

[Uzzy]

Shouldn't the Greek people vote to accept this offer?

Why vote when you know you'll be ignored again?

 

[anonymous_abc]

 

[PJV3]

Not sure how i feel, happy that Greece isn't being thrown into chaos, not happy about everything else.

I still think they should reject it and have some control over their future, but that's easy for me to say.

 

[2MF]

If this deal is even similar to the proposals that were leaked yesterday, it's worse than what the Greek population rejected in a referendum. Some parts of the proposal were even saying EU leaders would have a say on Greek laws!!!

We will see what the final agreement contains. If it is what we expect, it will be a complete joke if the Greek parliament accepts it. In fact, I woudn't be surprised if a future Greek government wipes out this debt due to constitutionality and blatantly going against the will of the Greeks.

 

[Caipirinha]

Not sure how i feel, happy that Greece isn't being thrown into chaos, not happy about everything else.

Syriza could split over this and if that leads to elections with no clear winner in the midst of a crisis then chaos will be an understatement for what will happen to Greece.

In the 20th Century that kind of scenario ended in war.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Syriza could split over this and if that leads to elections with no clear winner in the midst of a crisis then chaos will be an understatement for what will happen to Greece.

In the 20th Century that kind of scenario ended in war.

Don't be stupid. It's not going to end in war. What do you think Greece is going to do? Invade Germany? Retake Constantinople?

All this is going to end with is more Greeks unemployed and in poverty.

 

[Nikodemos]

The Eurogroup played Alex like a penny whistle. His Europhilic naivety was a massive weakness to his negotiating position from day one.

 

[Chariot]

Syriza could split over this and if that leads to elections with no clear winner in the midst of a crisis then chaos will be an understatement for what will happen to Greece.

In the 20th Century that kind of scenario ended in war.

If one would be cynical, that could be the goal. As of now no europaen army has business in Greece, but if - say - the country would be in a civil war, the europaen countries had a a reason to go in there and cease power directly. Would be a ridicilous thought, but a lot of things regarding this were already ridicilous.

 

[norinrad]

As a foreign investor, why do you invest in a country that can't afford teachers to educate a proper workforce or doctors to keep them healthy, lacks proper R&D subsidies, and where everyone is too poor to buy your products? Particularly one that still is very likely to default, just in three years time rather than now?

Pretty grim don't you think? I think no one in the EU wants to see Greece back in such state again, hence the investments will be flowing in once the trust is established. I think you are being a bit too grim. There's absolutely no way the EU and Greece are going to want to come back here to the same situation 3 years from now. How about we just wait and see how things will be implemented once this new deal has passed the Greek parliament?

 

[nature boy]

So Hollande seems to be the hero.

Wow did Germany play their cards wrong.

 

[PdotMichael]

Sure, the referndum was the greatest idea ever in the modern Greece history. Ignoring the result of the referendum and then got an stricter deal.

 

[EloKa]

Wow did Germany play their cards wrong.

care to elaborate?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Pretty grim don't you think? I think no one in the EU wants to see Greece back in such state again, hence the investments will be flowing in once the trust is established.

Investors don't invest money because they think the situation will be sad if they don't. They do it because they can make a return on their investments. The issue with returns on their investment is not trust at the moment (or at least, trust is a much smaller issue). It is the fact that Greek GDP has dropped by a quarter since the crisis began. Who invests somewhere when they'll lose a quarter of their investment?

I think you are being a bit too grim. There's absolutely no way the EU and Greece are going to want to come back here to the same situation 3 years from now. How about we just wait and see how things will be implemented once this new deal has passed the Greek parliament?

Go for it. However, given this is almost exactly what they did in 2010 and then in 2012, it doesn't seem like lessons have been learnt.

 

[KingSnake]

Wow, so Tsipras accepted more or less everything, including the 50 billions fund. Some people will make some great investments in the near future.

This deal solves literally nothing for Greece. I'm baffled.

 

[PJV3]

Syriza could split over this and if that leads to elections with no clear winner in the midst of a crisis then chaos will be an understatement for what will happen to Greece.

In the 20th Century that kind of scenario ended in war.

Yeah i get shit can still hit the fan, at least Greece wasn't summarily executed last night.

 

[Joni]

So Hollande seems to be the hero.

Wow did Germany play their cards wrong.

Except they got most of their program approved. So what did Hollande achieve?

 

[Dilly]

Sure, the referndum was the greatest idea ever in the modern Greece history. Ignoring the result of the referendum and then got an stricter deal.

Wasting money in the progress.

At least Tsipras was the second coming of socialism on GAF for a day or two.

 

[Nikodemos]

There's absolutely no way the EU and Greece are going to want to come back here to the same situation 3 years from now.

How exactly would they NOT be back in the same spot in three years' time? The time interval is ridiculously small. Can you truly see Greece becoming Europe's Vietnam, that is, a source of cheap manual labour for various hand-assembled items? Would the Greeks themselves accept such a fate? Would they even manage to do it in such a short timeframe?

 

[Funky Papa]

Wow, so Tsipras accepted more or less everything, including the 50 billions fund. Some people will make some great investments in the near future.

This deal solves literally nothing for Greece. I'm baffled.

I simply CANNOT see this situation working out for any of the parties involved.

My heart goes with Greece.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Except they got most of their program approved. So what did Hollande achieve?

That the trust fund would be managed from Athens rather than Luxembourg (but probably by the same people, just in a different location).

#frenchdiplomacy

 

[Randomizer123454444]

If I heard right, Hollande just said (on BBC stream) that the 50bn fund is managed by Greece? Correct if I heard or understood wrong.

 

[norinrad]

Investors don't invest money because they think the situation will be sad if they don't. They do it because they can make a return on their investments. The issue with returns on their investment is not trust at the moment (or at least, trust is a much smaller issue). It is the fact that Greek GDP has dropped by a quarter since the crisis began. Who invests somewhere when they'll lose a quarter of their investment?

I would if the other EU countries are willing to guarantee that they want Greece to succeed.

 

[Always-honest]

Ofcourse they did....

 

[Uzzy]

I would if the other EU countries are willing to guarantee that they want Greece to succeed.

Yes, the actions of certain European leaders these past few weeks certainly give me confidence that they want Greece to succeed.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Nikodemos]

I would if the other EU countries are willing to guarantee that they want Greece to succeed.

Well so far they've shown relatively clearly that they don't give a fuck about what happens to the Greeks, so...

EDIT: gah, ninja'd.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I would if the other EU countries are willing to guarantee that they want Greece to succeed.

But they're not, or they wouldn't have given such a ludicrously bad deal. I don't know a single economist who thinks this will be helpful. My former professor (and I'm going to shill his blog here because it's really good), who is normally a pretty mild-mannered guy, has been absolutely despairing at how the whole situation is handled. No economics, all politics.

 

[cyberheater]

They don't have time. This offer would need to be taken up by Wednesday afternoon.

Why vote when you know you'll be ignored again?

Okay. So not enough time and no point.

I think this decision is terrible.

I can't see how a staying in the Eurozone with this fiscal burden is preferable to Grexit.

 

[uuaschbaer]

I hope they reached a sensible deal that can bring Greece back on track and force the Eurozone even closer together in a political/fiscal union.

Can you explain the difference between forced political union and the overthrow of countries to take away their sovereignty?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

That description of the proposed deal basically sounds like another version of the bailout that the citizens voted against. Pushing it through parliament would make the plebiscite pretty fucking useless.

The referendum was always going to be pointless.

 

[nature boy]

care to elaborate?

Germany took a hardline approach that many felt (rightly or wrongly) went too far - even Der Spiegel thought it was too much. The whole 50 billions in privatizations sounds like a fairytale.

Except they got most of their program approved. So what did Hollande achieve?

Yes, but after that leaked document, wouldn't you say Germany also lost a lot of trust from its (southern) partners? If people in the South were already antagonized towards Germany, this summit only strengthened their case. Not to mention the British.

Hollande at least from a political perspective gained some respect as someone trying to solve this mess - there were clearly issues between the French and the Germans - and looking beyond the French electorate.

 

[tmarg]

Pretty grim don't you think? I think no one in the EU wants to see Greece back in such state again, hence the investments will be flowing in once the trust is established. I think you are being a bit too grim. There's absolutely no way the EU and Greece are going to want to come back here to the same situation 3 years from now. How about we just wait and see how things will be implemented once this new deal has passed the Greek parliament?

This situation didn't start two weeks ago. If there was going to be money coming in to help the Greeks rebuild their economy, we would have seen it by now, or at least heard about the conditions under which it would be offered.

There is no secret plan in place. The plan is several decades of austerity. It isn't going to work, but nobody seems to have the stomach for the alternative.

 

[norinrad]

But they're not, or they wouldn't have given such a ludicrously bad deal. I don't know a single economist who thinks this will be helpful. My former professor (and I'm going to shill his blog here because it's really good), who is normally a pretty mild-mannered guy, has been absolutely despairing at how the whole situation is handled. No economics, all politics.

I understand the sentiments and he's right about it all being political, there's no end game in sight. What would you propose when no one is willing to forgive the debt?

Also Hollande is no hero, he's been playing the devil's advocate.

 

[Dryk]

But they're not, or they wouldn't have given such a ludicrously bad deal. I don't know a single economist who thinks this will be helpful. My former professor (and I'm going to shill his blog here because it's really good), who is normally a pretty mild-mannered guy, has been absolutely despairing at how the whole situation is handled. No economics, all politics.

Neither politicians nor the public seem to give a shit what economists say by and large

 

[anonymous_abc]

The referendum was always going to be pointless.

Did anyone in power truly believe the referendum would have a point?

 

[hidys]

So when do we find out what the agreement actually is?

 

[Theonik]

Okay. So not enough time and no point.

I think this decision is terrible.

I can't see how a staying in the Eurozone with this fiscal burden is preferable to Grexit.

The decision is political. A sacrifice to saving face. It was a massive mistake for Tsipras not to put a grexit in his hand. You might say that it would be undemocratic. But so was ignoring the referendum.

 

[Nikodemos]

This situation didn't start two weeks ago. If there was going to be money coming in to help the Greeks rebuild their economy, we would have seen it by now, or at least heard about the conditions under which it would be offered.

There is no secret plan in place. The plan is several decades of austerity. It isn't going to work, but nobody seems to have the stomach for the alternative.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I've noticed more Greek-sourced goods on the shelves of my local supermarket. So they're definitely doing something, but it's slower than what the Eurogroup demands.