I'm sure that breaks several bank norms and can be punished according to the law.
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Greece Agreement Reached
- Thread starter Syriel
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It would also create jobs leading to people paying taxes. I'm all for injecting billions into Greece for rebuilding of their infrastructure and everything that needs rebuilding. You just have to get the right people behind it who want a better Greece for future generations. Anyway it should all kick off with the thieves in Brussels forgiving the debt and Greece willing to implement proper reforms.
Machspeed007
Member
We have electronic payments of course, but it's not enforced. But we aren't in such debt either and the economy is growing, fighting the corruption and the tax evasion.
Machspeed007
Member
You know, your uncle could be on to something. Both Schäuble and Varoufakis are no saints but very high level crooks, the only difference between them is one wears a tie and the other walks around like he's the head of an organized crime organization.
Not in Sweden though been there many times and always uses my bank card. Here in the Netherlands, most stores won't even accept cash. The supermarkets have cashiers for bankcards and cashiers for cash, but even those are being slowly phased out. Works great not carrying cash around, makes it safer too from being mugged
CyclopsRock
Member
Well their plan didn't work very well, did it? I don't understand the people saying that Germany obviously want Greece out - didn't they just have an excellent opportunity to force them out?
On a separate note, people saying Greece's problems could be solved by large public spending on infrastructural projects may be right, but the fundamental issue is still that they simply can't control the amount of money they have; They can't print more and they can't force people to lend to them. So where's the money gonna come from? It simply isn't an option that's available to Greece as long as it's in the Euro.
Theonik
Member
Is cash not legal tender in the Netherlands? I'm surprised this would fly in the Eurozone.Not in Sweden though been there many times and always uses my bank card. Here in the Netherlands, most stores won't even accept cash. The supermarkets have cashiers for bankcards and cashiers for cash, but even those are being slowly phased out. Works great not carrying cash around, makes it safer too from being mugged
Edit:
The matter is not by any means settled. Greece could very well find themselves having just implemented a toxic reform package then the ESM and bridge financing being denied where they might be forced out anyway.
This is not what I was asking. Greece also has electronic payments. Just not enforced.
Now, I agree that the expansion of electronic payments will help tremendously with tax collection, but I'm against this authoritarian approach. I find the combination of carrot and stick much better.
And electronic payments expansion it's not something you do over night. You need infrastructure investments. ( even distributing POS to every shop on every remote island still means money) You need to make it financially tempting for the companies. All you need is a GPRS connection, but that needs to be stable and reliable and not too expensive, the banks need also to invest in their own infrastructure. The mobile companies must have a good business case to expand their infrastructure and so on. This is not about Greek state, but about a lot of private companies involved in all this chain that you want to be forced by the state to do something.
Plus, you need people to be motivated to use the cards.
The state should really take care of the stick ( good tax inspectors) and the carrot ( tax reduction, tax deduction, tax discount for electronic payments etc). You don't just replace the stick with a bigger one thinking it would work better, when the starting issue was that the people that should impose the rules don't do their work.
You do realize you pay directly from your own bank account? You are free to carry cash around, most stores just choose to only accept PIN. Lately i have even been seeing people selling on the market only accepting PIN. Something to do with proving to the tax office you really did make 40k last year and not the 25K you mentioned on your tax forms
It is something that goes fairly independent from the government. It is people using it and seeing how it is easier for them than carrying around money. The business react to that trend, they see the advantages for them like less robberies and shorter lines at the register and they push it more; so people can and will use it more.
Sweden is not even the market leader in this according to Mastercard, 2013.
What remains in countries like Belgiums are bars, markets and very small businesses like bakers. That is a high volume of low-amount payments. There you would need government intervention to limit the cost to the business owners.
But Europe won't push Greece on this as Germany is in itself running behind the curve.
Companies are allowed to determine in which ways they receive their money. If you only allow cards, it just means you have to advertise it clearly.
Even in Austria, in the supermarket, I see more people paying with cash than with the card. I pay most of the time with the card and I feel like an outlier.
Bakeries, bars and coffee shops it's all about cash.
Also quite a number of restaurants in Vienna don't accept cards.
Bakeries, bars and coffee shops it's all about cash.
Also quite a number of restaurants in Vienna don't accept cards.
CyclopsRock
Member
Sure, but this plan isn't really the actions of a party that wants Greece out, given that they could, with little effort, forced them to leave on Monday.
uuaschbaer
Banned
Not in Sweden though been there many times and always uses my bank card. Here in the Netherlands, most stores won't even accept cash. The supermarkets have cashiers for bankcards and cashiers for cash, but even those are being slowly phased out. Works great not carrying cash around, makes it safer too from being mugged
Yes they will.
MonorailCat
Member
It's not really a paradox. He wants them to exit the Euro.
Yet they will go to Parliament with the opposed proposal. Tsipras hates the deal, but had it voted in Parliament. Syriza rebels oppose the deal, but support Tsipras. Estonia, Slovakia etc have been very vocal about not giving anymore money to Greece, but they agree with the deal.
Perfect paradox, I tell you!
I hate people who pay a 6euro bill with 1 cent coins and insist on standing there counting them all out, at least a card is quick and easy
Except the owner of the place who doesn't have to handle all that money and who is sure his employees aren't stealing from the register.
He wants them to exist in a state of perpetual depression but within the Euro. The benefits of a drag on the Euro thanks to an economic basket case which can never recover means value of the currency is held artificially low. This massively benefits Germany and its gargantuan trade surplus. In any normally functioning currency that level of trade surplus is utterly unsustainable without the accompanying appreciation of the currency value. This is not a problem for Germany or the surplus driven economies with Greece in the state it is.
The Greek people are picking up the tab for Northern Europeans trade surplus and if that means burning the society to the ground so be it.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This crisis isn't over yet, Finland or Estonia might go rogue. Assuming they don't, the next crisis will happen in about four years, assuming that all of the EU's growth predictions are met.
See you in two years!
Card takes forever. Cash is like "here's ma fuffi" and done.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Card only takes forever because you live in a technologically backward country and haven't embraced the contactless future. If the place I go accepts contactless, card payment is much faster than cash payment for me.
Well, it's not like you can extract 6 Euro from an ATM. If I pay most of the time with card, I don't get change. And all the coins I get I save for the coffee and juice machine at work.
What kind of luddite country do you live in? Here in Finland everyone except the grannies pays everything with the card. Might have to swing out cash if your train/bus card is out of charge but that's it.
Theonik
Member
Yes, but you are saying that someone going to a Dutch supermarket with cash can be turned away, that would I'm pretty sure be illegal and not compliant with EC good practice.You do realize you pay directly from your own bank account? You are free to carry cash around, most stores just choose to only accept PIN. Lately i have even been seeing people selling on the market only accepting PIN. Something to do with proving to the tax office you really did make 40k last year and not the 25K you mentioned on your tax forms
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/cash/legal_tender/index_en.htm
Many places in Greece will accept bank cards but you need to go much further than that to ensure it's viable to abolish cash and you still have the issue of tourists.
You can't? Where are you? Definitely possible in Germany.
Yeah since you live in Finland there's no way we'll agree on this. While Finland is at war with cash we here in Germany are perfectly contempt with our German angst towards the cashless utopia you heathens seem to love so much. Why don't you marry your card then, weirdo?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Germany is actually super-behind most other Western European economies on going cashless, it's quite interesting. My girlfriend's brother works in a firm that's trying to expand cashless options in Germany and he is constantly baffled by how poor the infrastructure is there.
CyclopsRock
Member
With wireless cards, it'll be quicker than using cash in basically any scenario unless something costs exactly £10 and you have a £10 note.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Does anyone know what happens with online shopping?
Right now we can't buy anything from websites outside of Greece.
When the banks will reopen, than means that we can buy online again?
Is it gonna take more time?
Right now we can't buy anything from websites outside of Greece.
When the banks will reopen, than means that we can buy online again?
Is it gonna take more time?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Even then it's quicker because you don't have to do the whole fishing for the right note when you mostly have £5 notes thing.
I edited meanwhile because I wanted to say 6. But I'm pretty sure that the ATMs I use most have only 10, 20, 50 and 100 bills, no 5s.
PdotMichael
Banned
In what world is a surplus of 2-3% unsustainable?
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He said unsustainable without an appreciation of the currency, so he's right.
Negotiator
Member
#Define technological infrastucture.
There's nationwide GSM/POTS coverage in Greece. That's the bare minimum requirement for a POS machine.
I'd say it's a culture issue, not a technological one. I don't mind fakelaki, as long as it's properly taxed. Wanna give a fakelaki? No problem! Pay with your debit card and expect to be taxed for it.
It's 7.9% of gdp with some figures saying as high as 8.25%. The highest its ever been. Those percentages dwarf the entire economies of most of the smaller states. German economic surpluses are causing a fundamental structural imbalance within the Euro. Greece will be just a sideshow when that imbalance breaks either Spain or Italy.
PdotMichael
Banned
The basic premise of the post is already flawed. If Germany wants a weak currency then they would want to have Greece in the EU, the claim that Schäuble forces a Grexit is quite the opposite of the claimed German goal.
Also any further action of the ECB to help Greece would weaken the Euro and would help Germany's export exbitions outside of the Eurozone.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I love the contactless, so quick and convenient.
The only criticism I have is the word "contactless". Three syllables is too much, we need a shorter word.
PdotMichael
Banned
The surplus is a result of trading outside of the Eurozone. In fact Germany's trade balance within the Eurozone is quite balanced and you are basically claiming that they should run a large trade dificit just to compensate for its export success outside of the union.
The expansion of electronic payments doesn't stop corruption without a proper enforcement of the laws. If only makes bribery schemes more complex.
No matter how tough you make a law, if the laws are not enforced you end up to square 0 again and again. If the laws would be enforced, you wouldn't need electronic payments expansion against tax evasion in the first place.
No matter how tough you make a law, if the laws are not enforced you end up to square 0 again and again. If the laws would be enforced, you wouldn't need electronic payments expansion against tax evasion in the first place.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No. To keep Greece in the EU in the long-run, Germany would have to implement a fiscal transfer programme. Greece is only 2% of the European economy. If Greece leaves, the Euro will not rise that much, and if anything would probably fall slightly as people become insecure about Euro investments. The Euro will be too weak for Germany until they kick out every other country except Belgium, the Netherlands, France, and Luxembourg. So, for Germany right now, it's a trade-off: how many countries can we kick out before the Euro raising again is worse than implementing a fiscal transfer scheme?
There's also the fact that they've created political constraints for themselves. It's very hard to sell "actually, Greece keeps the Mittelstand alive" (or more accurately "Greece is emblematic of a structural imbalance in the Eurozone that keeps the Mittelstand alive"), when you've also been selling "lazy Greeks why give money".
It would also accrue more inflation, which, while it would almost certainly be a good thing, runs into the second point above: political constraints, in this case the German revulsion at the concept of inflation.
You've raised both of those objections before and I answered both of them with more or less the same answers back then, I can go back and quote your original objection and my reply if you want. You then didn't respond. It's quite tedious to watch someone just post the same thing over and over again without actually listening or considering what the other person is saying, that makes for a monologue rather than a good conversation.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I suggest ContactLess Instant Transfer, or "clit".
jakonovski
Member
True Finns turned their coats and are now on board with the bailouts.
/schadenfreude
/schadenfreude
Negotiator
Member
Bribery will never stop, so you may as well tax it directly...
What kind of infrastructure are we talking about here for going cashless?
As far as I see, you need the following three key elements.
1) Internet access everywhere.
2) Everybody who has a business has an adequately modern register machine or similar.
3) Backend on the bank's side to manage payments. That is already in place.
Establishing which of these things is the equivalent of "the Apollo project"?
As far as I see, you need the following three key elements.
1) Internet access everywhere.
2) Everybody who has a business has an adequately modern register machine or similar.
3) Backend on the bank's side to manage payments. That is already in place.
Establishing which of these things is the equivalent of "the Apollo project"?
QuicheFontaine
Member
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